34000 From: Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Away Hi, Sarah - In a message dated 6/19/04 4:32:10 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahdhhk@y... writes: > Hi Howard, > - > -- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, all - > > > > I will be away from home, and probably without internet access, > >from > >early Sunday a.m. (June 20) to the following Sunday evening (June 27). I > >will > >respond after the 27th to emails directed to me between the 20th and > >27th. > .... > S: thx for answering my curiosity in another post - I know that even when > you visit family in Texas you still have internet access so I was > wondering.....Both Jon and I wish you and Rita a lovely holiday. It sounds > like a great retirement treat for you both. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: Thanks! ------------------------------------------- If you have any meaningful> > discussions, however simple (like Nina and Lodewijk), perhaps you can make > notes and share with us on return. > ----------------------------------------- Howard: There won't likely be much of that, but if anything of value crops up, I'll let you all know! ;-) ----------------------------------------- > > Are you taking any Dhamma reading? Maybe one of Nina’s books like BDL or > ADL which are easy to carry? Or maybe some of your letters here to share > with Rita and to ask for her comments? In any case, I hope it’s a relaxing > holiday with plenty of food for wise reflection on those high sees;-) > ------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm bringing several books including Bhikkhu ~Nanananda's wonderful little commentary on the Kalakmara Sutta. I'm purposely re-reading that on the trip, because I'm going to be reading it aloud and adding my comments at three successsive meetings of the Queens College Buddhist Association (the group that a colleague and I established) on my return from the trip. ------------------------------------------ > > It’ll seem quiet without you for a week! > ------------------------------------------- Howard: ;-) Thanks. ------------------------------------------ > > Just a few brief comments on your comments to Rob Ep on some comments of > mine;-) - - > > It is a gradual, very gradual path and there really can be right > understanding and awareness now. What I described as practice or > satipatthana is not just a direct realization at enlightenment and > therefore merely theoretical, but it is the way that such understanding > can grow. If there is the right beginning again and again now, the gradual > path is developed and the adze handle is gradually being worn away. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Sure. the preparation and the results are always "right now". ----------------------------------------------- > > Cetana (right intention) is not an eightfold path factor but a cetasika > that ‘directs’ other cittas at every moment of the day. You express > concern that if there isn’t some special directing, there is ‘the danger > of our not doing what needs to be done’. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: My caution is in grasping the snake by the tail instead of right below the head. Thoughts of "Nothing can be directed" can lead to no practice. Our inclination to inaction, laziness, and doing what we *like* rather than what is good for us is *powerful*, and the mind latches onto any excuse for taking "the easy way". We must be vigilant!! ------------------------------------------------- > > Howard, in your experience, does more understanding of anatta -- of seeing > and visible object and all the other realities we’ve been discussing here > -- really lead to less ‘doing of what needs to be done’? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Of *course* valid knowledge is for the good. We cannot do without it! But it must be rightly understood. Our defiled minds are greedy and lazy, and they misconstrue even what is true, led by desire. We think and do and believe what we *want*, and then we use our oh-so-clever reasoning ability in service to our defilements. Constant, vigilant self-observation is indispensable. The defilements are far stronger than we permit ourselves to realize - Mara is a subtle and sneaky little devil!! ---------------------------------------------- > > My experience is the opposite. Understanding of realities more and more > precisely and clearly as anatta -- however much of a kindergarden stage > this may be for us -- leads naturally to greater confidence in the value > of all kinds of wholesome states and the danger of all kinds of > unwholesome states, particularly to the danger of self-views. It naturally > leads to more metta, to more sympathy, joy in others good fortune and > equanimity, for example. There is more awareness of the dangers of near > and far enemies likely to sneak in all the time -- and they're certainly > not theoretical either;-). More precious still is that any development of > understanding leads to more detachment from what is conditioned at this > very moment and this is the only way it can develop further. > > As you rightly stressed, ‘in reality no one *is* doing anything, at any > time. Cetana and all the other mental states arise by conditions and > perform their functions accordingly. No one can push or direct them to be > any other way. Instead of being pessimistic as some would see the truths, > they are in fact liberating. > > Bon Voyage! > -------------------------------------- Howard: Thank you! :-) -------------------------------------- > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34001 From: Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Now, what? Hi, Herman - In a message dated 6/19/04 9:43:28 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi everyone, > > The following may be clumsily written, but it is not about the > words. It is about the experience. > > When the mind is directed to the study of the present moment, the > now, it turns out it is already gone. "Now" is as much a concept > as "kusala" and has no properties other than not being there. > > The study of the present moment, with the intention of finding it, > is self-defeating. Awareness of the present moment has died with it. > Awareness occurs with viewlessness. Awareness is just awareness. > > Herman > > ======================= I agree with your entire post. The past is gone, the future only imagined, and the present ungraspable - gone as soon as arisen. It is all empty and ungraspable, and yet we can look! We can see! And we can set ourselves free by letting go. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34002 From: agriosinski Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 8:50am Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Agrios, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" > wrote: > > > so sati is only possible when the self is dropped > > out of the picture? > > anything else would be just an attention (sanna -> manisikara?) > > of confused self? > > Let me lay a foundation here by being precise with my terminology and > then put the ball back in your court to continue the discussion. > > Any mental state which includes attachment to a view of self must be > unwholesome (ditthi arises in lobha-mula akusala cittas). > > All worldlings (not yet Sotapanna) still have a latent view of self > so that, when conditions are suitable, a view of self can arise. A > Sotapanna uproots the latent view of self, so it is not possible for > a Sotapanna to have a mental state that includes attachment to a view > of self. > > In all mental states that are wholesome, there must be sati > (mindfulness). In all mental states that are wholesome, there cannot > be attachment to a view of self. > > If one has a wholesome mental state, then one has sati and one sees > things as they really are. Obviously, this does not require that the > concepts of "nama", "rupa", "anicca", dukkha" or "anatta" arise in > the mind at that time. It is not about naming, it is at a "pre- > naming" stage that the mental state is wholesome. At the moment > of "pure giving", there is sati because, at that moment, the object > has been seen as it truly is without any distortion from latent > lobha, latent dosa or latent moha. > > Comments? I would need some more explanations. What is "pure giving"? What precisely you mean when you write "wholesome mental state". > Metta, > Rob M :-) 34003 From: agriosinski Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:18am Subject: Re: Now, what? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > The following may be clumsily written, but it is not about the > words. It is about the experience. > > When the mind is directed to the study of the present moment, the > now, it turns out it is already gone. "Now" is as much a concept > as "kusala" and has no properties other than not being there. > > The study of the present moment, with the intention of finding it, > is self-defeating. Awareness of the present moment has died with it. > Awareness occurs with viewlessness. Awareness is just awareness. > > Herman Hi Herman (and Rob and Howard), thank you for sharing this experience and opinions. Let me try to give my take on it: Awareness is just self having certain view, thinking this way, viewlessness is an awareness of other way of thinking. This self - can think both ways. As long as it builds its own existence, it will think anything. That's why I need to know if self has to dropped before any chance of sati will be possible. Metta, Agrios. 34004 From: Larry Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments to Vis. note 35, health. Icaro: "I am not fond of Toronto...Boo-Hoo-Hoo!!!" Hi Icaro, Cheer up, you are in the nearly tropical _southern_ Canada. Cast your eyes northward and see what you can see. Vast rupa! Imo, aversion is not detachment. Also, the masked man's faithful companion was Tonto, not Toronto. Larry --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Hi Larry! > > > (Narrator): Toronto - Canada´s second City and name of Masked Man´s > Indian partner... > > That´s reminds me a post of Rob Epstein about if Buddha sponsored > true aversion about mundane tratcs. Gautama always stressed the > necessity for everyone to tread up the Middle Path...but > sometimes,mainly at the passages concerning the Entry of Stream, the > Sotapani must erradicate wrong views and doubts of all Prompted and > un-prompted states of conscience. That creates de necessary > detachment for the next steps, Sakadagami and Anagami... > But in what degree is such detachment a form of aversion and > repulsion - Akusala states of mind ? > > (Narrator): While Larry wonders about the Akusala aspects of life > contemplating the high pines covered with silver snow at the Northern > canadian woods, the trumpet call of the RCMP sounds at distance > giving to all creatures in the forest a reassuring feeling: the brave > Mounties are near!!! Meanwhile... > > (Larry) > > What in the world are you doing in northern Canada??? > > (Ícaro):... I am not fond of Toronto...Boo-Hoo-Hoo!!! > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > > > > > "(Narrator): Northern of Canada, where men are really men and women > > too...with the beautiful canadian sun fading down over the River > Cayuga > > sparkling golden beams of light to all landscape,the marigolds > blotting > > the air with its scent Ícaro is punctuating all the good features of > > Kusala to Larry (that hadn't get yet his come-uppance)..." 34005 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. on Vis. note 35, health. Hi Larry, op 19-06-2004 00:47 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "'Profitable' in the sense of health, blamelessness, and pleasant result > (see Pm.463)." > Is this a canonical definition or a commentarial definition? Do you know > where it first appears? N: A commentarial definition based on the Tipitaka. Pleasant result, this is kusala vipaka. In the Dhammasangani and all over the Tipitaka. The word profitable is just a way of translation of kusala. As to health: Expositor (p. 83): This is Buddhaghosa, but based in the Tipitaka. See Nakulapitar sutta (quoted in my ADL, Ch2), K.S. III, First Fifty, § 1): Nakulapitar was an old sick man. The Buddha said: 'Though my body is sick, my mind shall not be sick.' We are mentally sick so long as we have wrong view with regard to the five khandhas and cling to them. The medicin for mental illness is the development of the eightfold Path so that the four noble Truths can be realized and there will be an end to dukkha. We read in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Co to Topics of Abhidhamma) about the first type of kusala citta we shall also deal with in Vis. 83: about conditions for this type to be unprompted, and one of them is . Meant is also suitable food. And elsewhere in the Vis. I have seen: cleanliness of body. Thus, physical factors are among the conditions for kusala citta. I see here and also in the Tiika to the Vis. (by Dhammapala) many passages almost identical with what Buddhaghosa writes in the Expositor. The commentarial tradition is very consistent I notice more and more while comparing different passages. Nina. 34006 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:40am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 6. Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 5, no 6. The development of vipassanå is not a matter of focussing on specific objects and avoiding to think of concepts. We do not have to force ourselves to pay attention only to paramattha dhammas, that would be unnatural. Our life is full of concepts of persons and events, but it is most valuable to have more understanding of paramattha dhammas in the midst of life. We should not reject paying attention to concepts such as persons and events, they are part of our daily life. The Middle Way that is taught by the Buddha is the development of understanding of our own life, of our accumulations and inclinations as they naturally arise. Otherwise, the goal cannot be reached. Unknowingly we may be motivated by lobha to know only nåma and rúpa, and to avoid thinking of concepts, although we have realized in theory that this will only counteract the development. The persons we meet, the events that occur, our reactions to them with kusala cittas or akusala cittas, all that occurs in daily life can remind us of paramattha dhammas. Citta, cetasika and rupa are arising and falling away all the time. They are paramattha dhammas, they are within us and they are everywhere in our surroundings. They appear in daily life at this moment. If we could only let ourselves be reminded of them in whatever circumstances we are, then we can profit to the full of the Dhamma we learnt. The Abhidhamma teaches us what paramattha dhammas are and we can apply the Abhidhamma in the development of satipatthana, since the objects of sati and paññå are paramattha dhammas. The Abhidhamma can teach us to develop understanding naturally. Attachment and sadness may overwhelm us, but they can be known as only conditioned dhammas. They are cetasikas that are not ours. Sati and understanding are cetasikas performing their functions. Understanding is the foremost factor of the eightfold Path and it gradually develops. Right effort is another factor of the eightfold Path that performs its function of persevering with the development of right understanding. It is not ³me² but a cetasika, viriya cetasika. Viriya, energy or effort is the quality of a heroe, víro. We have to be heroic to be aware of the reality of this moment, so that we eventually cross the flood of the cycle of existence. That means that we should never lose courage, even when sati of satipatthåna does not often arise. Understanding is surely growing, even when we do not see much progress. Acharn Sujin encouraged us with the words: ³Why can't we be brave enough to understand reality at this moment?...If we are not brave enough lobha will turn us away from this moment and hope for the next moment. We can begin to see how lobha dominates our life from moment to moment, and even from life to life. People think that it is impossible to be aware in times of misery or happiness, but we should be courageous.² ******** Nina. 34007 From: Larry Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. on Vis. note 35, health. "'Profitable' in the sense of health, blamelessness, and pleasant result (see Pm.463)." Hi Nina, I think it is reasonable to say that kamma produced rupa is kusala, akusala, or indeterminate. For example, if I fall and the body is injured that injury is kamma produced and unhealthy regardless of whether I am conscious of it or not. Recently you fell while crossing a stream. There was only very minor injury but your clothing became wet. I would say "wearing wet clothing" is inherently undesirable and since you intended to wear the clothing instead of washing it a good lawyer could make the case that this is akusala kamma vipaka. The question is whether the rupas of "wet clothing" could be classed as akusala in the same sense as a bodily injury. On the one hand you chose those rupas but on the other hand they are temperature produced rupas. Also, I am interested in whatever abhidhamma has to say about mental health. What is mental health? How is generosity healthy? Larry 34008 From: Larry Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. on Vis. note 35, health. Hi Nina, Our messages crossed over the Atlantic. If you have any additional comments, I would be interested. Larry 34009 From: agriosinski Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 11:38am Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > > Hi Agrios, > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" > > wrote: > > > > > so sati is only possible when the self is dropped > > > out of the picture? > > > anything else would be just an attention (sanna -> manisikara?) > > > of confused self? > > > > Let me lay a foundation here by being precise with my terminology and > > then put the ball back in your court to continue the discussion. > > > > Any mental state which includes attachment to a view of self must be > > unwholesome (ditthi arises in lobha-mula akusala cittas). > > > > All worldlings (not yet Sotapanna) still have a latent view of self > > so that, when conditions are suitable, a view of self can arise. A > > Sotapanna uproots the latent view of self, so it is not possible for > > a Sotapanna to have a mental state that includes attachment to a view > > of self. > > > > In all mental states that are wholesome, there must be sati > > (mindfulness). In all mental states that are wholesome, there cannot > > be attachment to a view of self. > > > > If one has a wholesome mental state, then one has sati and one sees > > things as they really are. Obviously, this does not require that the > > concepts of "nama", "rupa", "anicca", dukkha" or "anatta" arise in > > the mind at that time. It is not about naming, it is at a "pre- > > naming" stage that the mental state is wholesome. At the moment > > of "pure giving", there is sati because, at that moment, the object > > has been seen as it truly is without any distortion from latent > > lobha, latent dosa or latent moha. > > > > Comments? > > > I would need some more explanations. > What is "pure giving"? > What precisely you mean when you write "wholesome mental state". and one more thing: Isn't object (the one to be seen by sati) just a creation of self? Are there objects outside of thinking? metta, Agrios 34010 From: Philip Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:03pm Subject: One doorway for beginners? Hello Nina, and all Re-reading the book on the Perfections last night, came across this from chapter 4, quoting Khun Sujin: "The beginner is not keen enough to be aware of all objects which appear. The beginner should begin with one doorway at a time until he is skillful enough to be able to be aware of any object. The is the way. One should not try another way and neglect awareness of the object which appears. The beginner begins to develop right awareness of the object which appears, that is the duty of the beginner." This is what I've been wanting to do, but held back from designating a doorway to focus on, having read elsewhere that attempting to go about it in such a focussed way would be a self- driven exercise and defeat the purpose. Thanks in advance for any clarification on this. Metta, Phil 34011 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:15pm Subject: ¦^ÂСGRe: |^?ETH>¡G[dsg] Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (1) Dear Sraah Thanks for your reply and kind suggestion. S: I haven?t seen the book but it seems to be a ?hot? topic in many circles. As you go on to say, a lot depends on interpretations of suttas and even more on whether the commentaries and Abhidhamma are fully accepted. T: I remember that this topic was recently discussed in other groups. Since there is no doubt that the commentaries acknowledge the sukkhavipassaka method, people who deny the possibility of attainment of arahantship without jhana usually do not accept post-canonical commentaries as authority. S: I?ve been considering why it is so ?hot? and I can only think it is because the answers or interpretations of the suttas affect ideas about ?practice?. For example, if one has an idea of teaching jhana first or vipassana meditation first, then whether the various stages of enlightenment can be realized without jhana becomes critical and the arguments in support will be loudly defended. T: I believe that as far as Mahasi¡¦s meditation tradition is concerned, they argued to justify the methods of meditation practice they are using for the benefits of the ordinary people who don¡¦t have time and ability to read the Pali texts directly. S: So I¡¦m not sure that all the questions about whether or not jhana is optional aren¡¦t based on an idea of ¡¥doing or not doing jhana meditation¡¦ rather than really understanding moments of kusala and the qualities of calm, metta,dana and so on now when they arise as distinct from near and far enemies. I¡¦d be glad of your comments on this and those of others too. T: Since it is said that ¡¥one who is concentrated knows and sees [dhammas] as they really are¡¦. Concentration (samadhi) is regarded as the proximate cause of wisdom. (Vism 438 (PTS)) The question may arise that to which level of concentration one should develop in order to gain insight into the reality of all mental and physical dhammas. If jhana is the requisite for attainment of magga-phala, we have no choice but to practice samatha meditat ion to attain jhanas before trying to practice vipassana meditation, otherwise, the aim to understand the reality of rupa-nama and nibbana will never be achieved. S: I think there is a lot more to be discussed about the meaning of vipassana. When realities are understood, I don?t think there is any argument or criticism. T: I happen to have two passages of the definition of vipassana. Patis ¢º 96: Insight is in the sense of contemplation as impermanent; insight is in the sense of contemplation as painful; insight is in the sense of contemplation as not self. (Aniccato anupassanat.t.hena vipassanaa dukkhato anupassanat.t.hena vipassanaa, anattato anupasanat.t.hena vipassanaa) Patis-a ¢¹ 116: It sees dhammas in various ways in relation to impermanence etc., so it is vipassana. Wisdom has this name. (Aniccataadivasena vividhehi aakaarehi dhamme passatiiti vipassanaa. Pa~n~naayetam naamam.) S: Having said that, I find all your comments in your letters to B.Bodhi and here to raise good points. It?s difficult for me to understand how scholars can justify using parts of the Abhidhamma and ancient Pali commentaries in defence of interpretations and not others. In these commentaries we read about how most of the Abhidhamma and the commentaries themselves (which Buddhaghosa based his compilations on) were rehearsed at the First Council. If we only partially accept them, it seems we?re suggesting our interpretations of the suttas are more valid or that the ancient commentators were speaking falsely when they declared them to have been rehearsed or to be the Buddha?s teaching. Furthermore this falsehood must have been perpetuated by the Mahavihara Theras (large numbers of arahants by report) and the theras from other Theravada countries at the time and in subsequent Councils. T: As you know, many people (and some Western scholars) deny the authority of post-canonical commentaries and try to understand the meaning of the Pali Canon in their own ways. I don¡¦t want to say it¡¦s wrong, but I think it might be dangerous if they don't consider traditional interpretations. If we know how the Buddhist Canons were transmitted to us, we will not insist with dosa that only this or that is the words of the Buddha, only this or that is the correct interpretation. Instead, we will wisely use the Buddhist Canon and commentaries only to reduce our defilements. From the scholarly perspective, the best way to approach, if it is possible, the words of the historical Buddha is to compare, as possible as we can, different versions of Buddhist Canon and different interpretations given in the post-canonical commentaries preserved in different schools. S: I?m not sure if B.Bodhi addressed the second way of Arahantship - tranquillity preceded by insight (vipassanaa-pubba?ngama?m samatha?m), one who makes insight the vehicle (vipassanaa-yaanika). I haven?t checked all the references you?ve both referred to as yet. T: ¡¥vipassanaa-pubbangamam samatham¡¦ means ¡¥samatha which is preceded by vipassana¡¦. This is explained in commentaries to indicate the meditative way of ¡¥sukkhavipassaka¡¦ (dry -insighter) who practices directly vipassana meditation without previously attaining ¡¥access concentration¡¦ or jhanas. ¡¥Vipassanaa-yaanika¡¦or 'suddha-vipassanaa-yaanika' is synonyms of 'sukkhavipassaka'. S: Whatever the rights and wrongs, like now, we?re all studying the Dhamma together, but by inclination we have different strengths and weaknesses - one will have more saddha, another more viriya and so on. So I?m sure that there are a very large number of possibilities depending on cittas arising at the time. T: I agree with you. It doesn¡¦t matter, I think, whether our interpretations of the Canon are precise or not (who knows, the Buddha is not here), the most important thing is to observe our mind as it really is in order to reduce our immeasurable defilements. metta, Tzungkuen 34012 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Dear Swee Boon Thanks for your reply. It makes me think a lot. ----- 즳«H¥ó ----- ±H¥ó¤H: nidive ¤é´Á: ¬P´Á¤, ¤»¤ë 18, 2004 1:12 ¤W¤È ¥D¦®: ?^???G?^???GRe: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) > I think Kitagirisutta said "arupa vimokkhas" and not "arupa jhanas". > Arupa vimokkhas include the four arupa jhanas and the "cessation > of perception & feeling". It is to my understanding that the Buddha > did not qualify if by "arupa vimokkhas", he allows the possibility > of PARTIAL "arupa vimokkhas". Without such a qualification, FULL > "arupa vimokkhas" should be inferred. This would then be in line > with DN 15. You¡¦re right, it is ¡¥aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¦. But, how do we know the Pali term ¡¥aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¦ includes ¡§cessation of perception & felling¡¨ ? The Kitagirisutta sutta seems not clarify this. Is the term explained in other suttas? If ¡¥aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¦ are proved by suttas as including ¡§cessation of perception & felling¡¨, people still could argue otherwise-- The Buddha did not explicitly deny in the sutta the possibility of PARTIAL ¡§aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¨, so PARTIAL ¡§aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¨ can¡¦t be rule out without persuasive reasons. > I think the very important phrases here are "in a sequential way" > and "in a non-sequential way". The four rupa & arupa jhanas are > described as "in a sequential way". I take this to mean that for > an arahant to be released both ways, the arahant needs to proceed > in a sequential manner from the first jhana to the cessation of > perception & feeling. This would then be in line with DN 15. I check the Pali texts and find this sutta quite supports your view that ¡§cessation of perception and feeling¡¨ is the official criteria. The Pali term for "in a sequential way" is "pariyaayena", which could mean ¡§figuratively, metaphorically¡¨. The Pali term for "in a non-sequential way" is "nippariyaayenaa", which means ¡§literally, not figuratively¡¨. This sutta seems to suggest that an arahant who can attain the cessation of perception and feeling at will is ¡§literally¡¨ a ubhatobhagavimutta, while other arahants who can attain only 1st jhana etc. are only said figurative ly as ubhatobhagavimutta. It is also interesting to look at the Pannavimuttasutta, just next to the Ubhatobhagavimuttasutta, where Pannavimutta arahant is said to have ¡§cessation of perception and feeling¡¨ too. > I don't take the VM & commentaries as canonical references. They > could be wrong. Yes, Pali commentators could be wrong. Even the Pali Canon itself could be wrong. Since Pali Canon is just the set of Canon belonging to Theravada tradition, other early Indian schools such as Saravastivada and Mahasanghika have their own versions of Buddhist Canon, when different versions contradict one another (the Susima-sutta, among other suttas, is a good example.) It¡¦s difficult to tell definitely which version is ¡§right¡¨, or is really said by the Buddha. Given that the Buddhist Canon was co-recited by the disc iples after Buddha¡¦s death and was only orally transmitted down from generation to generation for more than 200 years, it will be questionable to take the passages of any set of the Canon to be the spoken words of the historical Buddha. Furthermore, the language which the Buddha used, probably old Maagadhii, according to K.R. Norman, is certainly not Pali. (K.R. Norman, A Philological Approach to Buddhism, p. 62.) Though the opinions of Theravadin commentators may sometimes be wrong, I prefer to consult the Pali commentaries from time to time in that the doctrines they give are quite beautiful and practical. Most important of all, commentators¡¦ knowledge of Pali language used in the Nikaya is surely much better than me, sometimes without their comments, the Nikaya texts, especially the verses, are almost unreadable. Anyway, people should choose their own ways to understand the Buddhist Canon(s) and gain benefits from them by reducing lobha, dosa and moha. That is why there are so many beautiful Buddhist traditions in the world. With regard to the question how to interpret phrase ¡§one does not attain the eight vimokkhas¡¨, do you suggest that the phrase doesn¡¦t indicate the possibility that one has none of the vimokkhas? metta, Tzungkuen 34013 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 3:42pm Subject: Re: Stealing (was: Bodhi: The Jhaanas .....) Hello Sarah (and Jon), and all, I know this seems a trivial thing and I nearly wasn't going to mention it - but a remark you made in your last post on stealing (about the people taking the baby birds from the nest and how people living near wildlife in HK think they own that wildlife) had a stronger impact on me than any other thing in the last few months. It shocked me into realising that even when I think I understand the ordinary boring things in life (including my own attitudes), I really don't see even surface things as they are - I just think I do. (And if the perceptive, intuitive, moral "I" doesn't realise it - why should I be surprised or assume ulterior motives in others who don't seem to get the glaringly obvious?) Your remark that caused the shock (while I was feeling amusedly superior to people who think they own wildlife) was: Sarah: "I think one would have a hard time detecting any good motives in this case but what would you say about giving away puppies (taken from their mother) as another example where nothing is quite as simple as we'd like to think?" It's half an hour since I read that (literally with mouth dropping open) and I still feel a little disoriented. Not just because it's true! But because I'd never thought of it before. And if something so clear hadn't even occured to me on what isn't even considered an important matter - what else don't I know that I don't know (if you take my meaning). I've had dogs all my life - there has never been a single day since my birth when my family hasn't had a loved dog companion living with us, wonderful gentle intelligent beings - pedigreed Alsatians, Fox Terriers, Border Collies, but mostly endearing Labrador Retrievers, and now the piece de resistance - the stray mongrel Great Dane/Alsatian Cross who came for one night and is still here twelve years later. Only with him am I NOT guilty of taking what is not given. (I earnestly, diligently, exhaustingly, unsuccessfully, tried to give him back to someone, ANYone :-)). I don't mean to be going on about this - but this is a little scary. I thought it was only the major questions in life that I wasn't right on top of - anatta, rebirth, kamma, you know - the usual suspects :-). I wonder if it isn't those questions that should be taking up most of my reflection time, but rather getting to know myself and the world I live in as we really are. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- p.s. sorry, but reading this post over, I can't seem to make it sound like a serious subject - I'll understand if it evokes a "what's she going on about?" response. C. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Christine & All, > > --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, all, > > > > Thank you for the assistance with the sutta refs. The first one > > remained a mystery though, until Steve's post arrived. > .... > S: Yes, I was glad for his assistance - in my rush, I'd read the first two > references as one. > .... > > Regarding the cockatoos. Your 'intention' was to prevent what you > > considered stealing of chicks from their parents. > > I wonder under what circumstances taking babies from a nest > > isn't 'taking what is not given'? [I mean, I know there are times > > in every mother's life when she might fleetingly consider giving the > > occasional child away-usually between the ages of two and three > > years with humans. :-).] > > Maybe if the parent bird was dead, and the intention was to care > > for the little ones? > .... > S: Hmmm..... I think one would have a hard time detecting any good motives > in this case but what would you say about giving away puppies (taken from > their mother) as another example where nothing is quite as simple as we'd > like to think? > .... > >Or if the 'takers' were government officials > > responsible for relocating them? > ... > S: I started chatting with them to check this out, but clearly not... > ... > > Did John give his reasons why he > > felt there was the possibility it wasn't stealing? > .... > S: I had mentioned calling the police and it was with his legal hat on > that he said it might not be against the law.... Also, he suggested > many indigenous New Territories locals consider the wildlife at their > door-steps to be their property and so in these cases there might not be > any intention or idea of stealing. (I'm also thinking of Azita's example > before of picking flowers in a park when one doesn't have any idea it's > not allowed.) > > What Jon kindly didn't remind me was that a few weeks ago when I found a > baby turtle struggling in the sea and looking very defenceless (I forget > if I mentioned it), I seriously considered bringing it home with the > mistaken idea that it was a fresh water pet that someone had left on the > beach. Luckily, I found out that it was in the right place and helped it > swim out instead. > > I'll look forward to your further comments. As with all the other > livelihood and precept issues, it will of course come down to momentary > intentions. > > Btw, Jon's comment about my unwise actions in confronting (however > politely) the cockatoo baby-snatchers was with regard to the risk I was > taking at interfering with their livelihood. > .... > > Glad to hear the croc was caught. Where is he now? > .... > S: She has a temporary home -- a farm -- where she's sunbathing but on > hunger-strike. Still, according to the Qld expert, a month's hunger-strike > is no problem. > .... > > And, tell me, Sarah ... did the snake 'gulp'like the one in Sri > > Lanka when you were diligently sitting in meditation? :-) :-) > .... > S: Ouch! > > Metta, > > Sarah > p.s Tipitak index is back in action - a great site for those not familiar > with it. > http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/index.html > ====== 34014 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:36pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Now, what? -----Original Message----- From: agriosinski [mailto:agriosinski@y...] Sent: Sunday, 20 June 2004 3:19 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Now, what? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > The following may be clumsily written, but it is not about the > words. It is about the experience. > > When the mind is directed to the study of the present moment, the > now, it turns out it is already gone. "Now" is as much a concept > as "kusala" and has no properties other than not being there. > > The study of the present moment, with the intention of finding it, > is self-defeating. Awareness of the present moment has died with it. > Awareness occurs with viewlessness. Awareness is just awareness. > > Herman Hi Herman (and Rob and Howard), thank you for sharing this experience and opinions. Let me try to give my take on it: Awareness is just self having certain view, thinking this way, viewlessness is an awareness of other way of thinking. This self - can think both ways. As long as it builds its own existence, it will think anything. That's why I need to know if self has to dropped before any chance of sati will be possible. Metta, Agrios. Hi Agrios and everyone, I'll start with your last remarks, because I think that is charted territory. (I've been there) :-) You can have absolute confidence that any thought of shoulding, musting, having to etc is generated by the ego. You can also have absolute confidence that the ego will never do anything to undermine itself. So the loop of "I must find out whether I need to do this or that" is itself an ego-bolstering device. Rather than being that thought, identifying with it, it is possible to just observe the thought, watch it come and watch it go. With regards to your first paragraph, I may be misreading you, but it reads like all thoughts and awarenesses are considered self-views. Is that what you are saying? Self-view doesn't make itself. Like every thought it arises because of conditions, and ceases because of conditions. At every international airport these days there is close vigilance and scrutiny of what is allowed on the plane. It is possible, likewise, to come to see the close scrutiny and vigilance that is already happening with regards to what is allowed through the gates to the mind. Very selectively, the passenger manifest of "house of cards" airlines is being groomed according to the prevailing policy. It is possible to come to see what that policy is. It is also possible to tamper with the policy. For a while, make the policy that nothing gets on board. Observe how plenty of thoughts present themselves for boarding nonetheless. No need to let them through. See what presents itself if something slips through. Reaffirm the policy. Watch the policy change as candidates present themselves with pressing arguments for boarding. Realise that you have been watching not-self in action. Hope the airline metaphor wasn't too silly :-) Herman 34015 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:52pm Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) Hi Agrios, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > > I would need some more explanations. > > What is "pure giving"? > > What precisely you mean when you write "wholesome mental state". > > > and one more thing: > Isn't object (the one to be seen by sati) just a creation of > self? Are there objects outside of thinking? Some excellent questions! According to the Abhidhamma, what we commonly refer to as "mind" is really a sequence of mental states, each arising and then falling away. Each mental state has consciousness and a grouping of mental factors (cetasikas). Each mental state exists for a brief instant and performs a specific function. When I wrote "pure giving", I wanted to emphasize that I was referring to the split second when giving was happening, not the other mental states that might arise close to that event. In reality, mental states arise and fall so quickly that people sometimes mistakenly merge discrete events such as "thinking about how much the gift cost" and "pure giving" into one. The Abhidhamma provides a catalogue of 89 mental states (or 121 by a different way of counting). These mental states can be grouped in different ways, but one of the groupings is according to ethical quality: - Unwholesome (akusala): Kamma creating mental states that have a root mental factor of delusion (moha) and may also have a root mental factor of greed (lobha) or a root mental factor of aversion (dosa) - Wholesome (kusala): Kamma creating mental states that have root mental factors of non-greed (alobha) and non-aversion (adosa); they may also have a root mental factor of wisdom (panna). - Indeterminate (avyakata): Others There are mental factors (cetasikas) which arise in: - all mental states (i.e. contact) - some mental states of all three ethical qualities (i.e. enthusiasm) - all unwholesome mental states (i.e. lack of shame) - some unwholesome mental states (i.e. conceit) - all wholesome mental states (i.e. faith) - some wholesome mental states (i.e. compassion) Sati (mindfulness) is one of those mental factors which arise in all wholesome mental states. Your last question, "Isn't object (the one to be seen by sati) just a creation of self? Are there objects outside of thinking?" is extremely interesting. According to Abhidhamma, there are four ultimate realities: - Consciousness (citta) - Mental factors (cetasikas) - Matter (rupa) - Nibbana Note: just to make things confusing, mental states (a combination of consciousness and mental factors) are typically called citta, the same term as is used for consciousness. In this post, I reserve citta to mean consciousness. Citta is the process of being aware of an object (an activity). Citta is also that which is aware of an object (an agent). Finally, citta is the means by which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an object (an instrument). The object of a mental state and the mental state itself (led by citta) are different. There is a co-dependence, just as three sticks in a tripod all depend on each other for support, but the object is not created by the self. The Buddha defined beings as made up of five aggregates (pancakkhanda): - Matter (Rupa) -> Rupa - Feeling (Vedana) -> One of the cetasikaa - Perception (Sanna) -> One of the cetasikas - Mental Formations (Sankhara) -> A group of fifty cetasikas - Consciousness (Vinnana) -> Citta The Buddha constantly warned about the risk of taking any of these to be self. Metta, Rob M :-) 34016 From: gazita2002 Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 4:56pm Subject: Re: Stealing (was: Bodhi: The Jhaanas .....) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Sarah (and Jon), and all, > > I know this seems a trivial thing and I nearly wasn't going to > mention it - but a remark you made in your last post on stealing > (about the people taking the baby birds from the nest and how people > living near wildlife in HK think they own that wildlife) had a > stronger impact on me than any other thing in the last few months. > Dear Christine and others, Isn't it interesting how conditions work! Something seemingly irrelevant and trivial as you say, [but I imagine these mums share similar feelings to the aboriginal mums felt when their kids were stolen] can be a condition for a whole lot of reflection and probably understanding. Just another little reminder of how 'anatta' this whole world is, we truck along in our ignorance thinking we have a pretty good grip on all of this and then we get a whack in the head with a four- b'-two, [Aussie for a big lump of wood, for those who don't know what I'm on about.] I used to work in a dairy long before I heard Dhamma and before I had children, however I still felt traumatised when the boy calfs were sold and the mums mooed and wailed all night, long after the calfs were gone. I guess this is why dealing in flesh/beings is wrong livilhood. > It shocked me into realising that even when I think I understand > the ordinary boring things in life (including my own attitudes), I > really don't see even surface things as they are - I just think I > do. (And if the perceptive, intuitive, moral "I" doesn't realise > it - why should I be surprised or assume ulterior motives in others > who don't seem to get the glaringly obvious?) Your remark that > caused the shock (while I was feeling amusedly superior to people > who think they own wildlife) was: > > Sarah: "I think one would have a hard time detecting any good > motives in this case but what would you say about giving away > puppies (taken from their mother) as another example where nothing > is quite as simple as we'd like to think?" > > It's half an hour since I read that (literally with mouth > dropping open) and I still feel a little disoriented. Not just > because it's true! But because I'd never thought of it before. And > if something so clear hadn't even occured to me on what isn't even > considered an important matter - what else don't I know that I don't > know (if you take my meaning). I think the more you know that you don't know, shows that understanding is actually growing bec I think that's the way understanding works. Before we hear the Dhamma, we have perversion of perception - sanna vipallasa - but we don't know that we have it. When we begin to understand a little more, we begin to see just how 'perverted' it is, but we can't change it, only gradually developing understanding can know more and more. Remember the adze handle sutta, little by little, slowly, slowly. It takes lots and lots of patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 34017 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 5:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Comments to Vis. note 35, health. Hi Larry!!! > Cheer up, you are in the nearly tropical _southern_ Canada. Cast your > eyes northward and see what you can see. Vast rupa! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes, Larry!!! I can see it!!! Higher than life, proud, tall, sublime, THE RUPA! The symbol of all true acharya, all true guru... the best companion of all illuminatti of all ages of Humanity. The encarnation of Pure Metta, the condensation of all Panna, the bright living lighthouse to all men and women that tread up the Noble Path... THE STATUE OF BULLWINKLE J. MOOSE AT SUNSET BOULEVARD,CALIFORNIA!!!! Wonderful!!! Awesome!!! Splendid!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- Imo, aversion is > not detachment. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Good to hear this for you. Buddha is sometimes very pragmatic in His strategies and even aversion, moosefication,etc, can be useful tools for Him (I hope that´s not any mahayanist or Yakkha near us hearing this... a fiend in need is a fiend indeed!!!) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > Also, the masked man's faithful companion was Tonto, not Toronto. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Damn!!! I used to like Masked Man´s faithful companion!!! But now tranquility had settled over Northern Canada!!!! Niagara falls... and sometimes it doesn´t...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" > wrote: > > Hi Larry! > > > > > > (Narrator): Toronto - Canada´s second City and name of Masked > Man´s > > Indian partner... > > > > That´s reminds me a post of Rob Epstein about if Buddha sponsored > > true aversion about mundane tratcs. Gautama always stressed the > > necessity for everyone to tread up the Middle Path...but > > sometimes,mainly at the passages concerning the Entry of Stream, > the > > Sotapani must erradicate wrong views and doubts of all Prompted and > > un-prompted states of conscience. That creates de necessary > > detachment for the next steps, Sakadagami and Anagami... > > But in what degree is such detachment a form of aversion and > > repulsion - Akusala states of mind ? > > > > (Narrator): While Larry wonders about the Akusala aspects of life > > contemplating the high pines covered with silver snow at the > Northern > > canadian woods, the trumpet call of the RCMP sounds at distance > > giving to all creatures in the forest a reassuring feeling: the > brave > > Mounties are near!!! Meanwhile... > > > > (Larry) > > > What in the world are you doing in northern Canada??? > > > > (Ícaro):... I am not fond of Toronto...Boo-Hoo-Hoo!!! > > > > Mettaya, Ícaro > > > > > > > > > > > "(Narrator): Northern of Canada, where men are really men and > women > > > too...with the beautiful canadian sun fading down over the River > > Cayuga > > > sparkling golden beams of light to all landscape,the marigolds > > blotting > > > the air with its scent Ícaro is punctuating all the good features > of > > > Kusala to Larry (that hadn't get yet his come-uppance)..." 34018 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:28pm Subject: Satipatthana method insight - Goenka Retreat experience Hi All, Its amazing how amplified the experience of the object(s) of your awareness can become after Samadhi is developed. I remember at the 10 day Goenka retreat, where noble silence was observed for the entire ten days, I developed my Samadhi fairly keenly just for that duration. Just to share my experience with you (and everyone): The first 3 days, we spent, developing Samadhi focusing only on the touch of breath on the broad area of the triangular section inside the nose and below the nose above the upper lip. Then as our concentration and persistence developed, we then proceeded to focus our attention on a smaller and smaller area. The smaller and smaller the area, he said, the sharper and more focused becomes your attention. The longer you can keep your attention on the object without interruption, the stronger becomes your persistence of attention. Its amazing how the first day I could barely feel the sensation in my nostrils and not a single sense under my nose; later, this developed (after 3 days of intense sitting) into something like a chimney billowing with smoke. I could feel the warm air coming out of my nose and rising against the sides of my nose, warming the sides of my nose as the air went past. I could feel every hair under my nose wiggle like reeds in the wind as the air passed over it. On the third day, we began leaving our meditation to develop Samadhi and began Vipassana, that is, moving our attention to points and scanning sections on the body. Our first point of awareness was a point right on the top of the head. I was amazed at how the exact point where I focused my attention came alive with all these sensations which I previously did not detect. It amazes me what humans can do when our attention can be focused; the level of discernment which can be achieved. For example, we could be in a noisy cafeteria where people are in an uproar and still discern a single conversation amongst hundreds of voices. We can focus our attention to each person in succession, and as we focus our attention on each person's voice, everybody else's conversation falls into the background. No directed awareness, or intention, and all the conversations in the room turn into an ocean of babble. Our awareness is direct-able, which is controlled by our intention. Wrong intention = wrong objects of our awareness; Right intention (Samma Sankappa) = right objects of our awareness. Most of the entire waking day was spent in sitting meditation for the exception of short rest breaks, meals, and discourse. What I found particularly important was an element they encouraged which they termed "Strong determination." Amongst all the sittings, there were 3 particularly important sittings each day which were to be done with "strong determination". To be specific, "strong determination" meant that before the sitting, you were to make a vow to yourself that you are to sit for the entire hour without moving from the original position in which you started; ... that is, even if your legs were on fire. ...That you were going to put strong effort into the entire sitting hour without interruption into the meditation. This idea of strong determination, I felt, was key to progress. As time went by, my thoughts, sensations and feelings began to scream, rather than being subtle subconscious thoughts, sensations and feelings. I became more aware of the subtle bodily actions I made and the intentions/thoughts behind the actions. I realized when I walked with pride or conceit, I stuck my chest out a little; it was also displayed very subtlety in the way I walked, in the way I carried myself, and in my mannerisms. I realized how my vanity polluted my thoughts and intentions. MY VANITY, that is, my outward display toward others for gain of admiration, good opinion, love, acceptance. I realized when I contemplated dhamma / suttas and vinaya, I was not contemplating for my benefit, but was expending much thought in vanity, as if I myself was the Buddha giving discourse to others and then being patted on the back and thanked in return to those I was giving discourse. I was expending my thoughts in vanity when my thoughts could instead be intent on understanding and penetrating dhamma for myself through investigating reality with my directed awareness and mindfulness. I also realized that sensations are not in themselves, suffering. Suffering is caused by our interpretation of the senses. Just as the same water which can make a person go "Ahhhhhhh, nice!" in the shower, can make the same person say "S#@T!!!, Damn !" when he gets rained on. Same water, same sensation, yet in one case causes pleasure and in the other suffering. Our reaction is a result of `Sankharas' - mind formations. We create our own anger; We create our own suffering. Its amazing how quickly this state of awareness dropped away after we broke noble silence on the last day. We had a final meditation after the day we broke noble silence the previous night and already my level of concentration was gone. ...and after returning to normal life my concentration and level of awareness was even less. "Herein, O bhikkhus, let a brother, as to the body continue to look upon the body ... overcome both the HANKERING AND THE DEJECTION COMMON IN THE WORLD." MAHA SATIPATTHANA SUTTANTA, DIGHA NIKAYA, PALI TEXT SOCIETY, Rhys Davids Back into the world of hankering and dejection. ...Back into the world hankering after livelihood, sensual pleasures, and dejection. Back into the world, I seldom find days, caught up in my hankering and dejection, to practice. --- 40. `Suppose O King, there appears in the world one who has won the truth, an Arahat, a fully awakened one, abounding in wisdom and goodness, happy, who knows all worlds, unsurpassed as a guide to mortals willing to be led, a teacher for gods and men, a Blessed One, a Buddha. He, by himself, thoroughly knows and sees, as it were, face to face, this universe ... and having known it, he makes his knowledge known to others. The truth lovely in its origin, lovely in its progress, lovely in its consummation, doth he proclaim, both in the spirit and the letter, the higher life doth he make known, in all its fullness and in all its purity.' 41. `A householder or one of his children, or a man of inferior birth in any class that listens to that truth; and on hearing it he has faith in the Tathagata (the one who has found the truth); and when he is possessed of that faith, he considers thus within himself: "Full of hindrances is household life, a path for the dust of passion. Free as the air is the life of him who has renounced all worldly things. How difficult is it for the man who dwells at home to live the higher life in all its purity, in all its bright perfection!" -SAMANNA-PHALA SUTTA, DIGHA NIKAYA, PALI TEXT SOCIETY, Rhys Davids with metta, nori 34019 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 6:38pm Subject: What is right view ? How right view ? Right view is a view free from all speculation, free from all imagination, based entirely on direct personal experience. Most people are not aware of the constant thought and imagination which continually corrupts one view so integral to ones thought processes; the intellectualizing, imagining, creating of concepts. You cannot say what is, until you experience what is. Many are driven by vanity, pride and ego to say what is, proclaim what is, before they experience rightly what is. It is better to admit not yet knowing or experiencing so that you still have within you the intention of finding out through earnest investigation / contemplation via observation. If you do not know, then not to know is the right view. Many will read suttas and repeat the words, saying this or that is the case. It is in the Pali Canon so such is the case, having faith in the Blessed Ones words. ... but I think the Blessed One does not want you to have a view based on faith in him. He wants you to discover and validate for yourself the substance of his words. ... and only when you are absolutely certain through your own personal direct observation / experience / witness should you make it your own view. ... and even to this view you should not become attached. metta, nori 34020 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 7:24pm Subject: Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hello Nori, and all, Perhaps it might be difficult to penetrate the Teachings unless one knows, correctly, what they are first? "Experiential right view is the penetration of the truth of the teaching in one's own immediate experience. Thus it is also called right view that penetrates the truths (saccapativedha- sammaditthi). This type of right view is aroused by the practice of insight meditation guided by a correct conceptual understanding of the Dhamma. To arrive at direct penetration, one must begin with a correct conceptual grasp of the teaching and transform that grasp from intellectual comprehension to direct perception by cultivating the threefold training in morality, concentration and wisdom. If conceptual right view van be compared to a hand, a hand that grasps the truth by way of concepts, then experiential right view can be compared to an eye -- the eye of wisdom that sees directly into the true nature of existence ordinarily hidden from us by our greed, aversion and delusion. The Discourse on Right View is intended to elucidate the principles that are to be comprehended by conceptual right view and penetrated by experiential right view." http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/r_view/r_view00.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Right view is a view free from all speculation, free from all > imagination, based entirely on direct personal experience. > > Most people are not aware of the constant thought and imagination > which continually corrupts one view so integral to ones thought > processes; the intellectualizing, imagining, creating of concepts. > > You cannot say what is, until you experience what is. > > Many are driven by vanity, pride and ego to say what is, proclaim > what is, before they experience rightly what is. > > It is better to admit not yet knowing or experiencing so that you > still have within you the intention of finding out through earnest > investigation / contemplation via observation. > > If you do not know, then not to know is the right view. > > Many will read suttas and repeat the words, saying this or that is > the case. It is in the Pali Canon so such is the case, having faith > in the Blessed Ones words. > > ... but I think the Blessed One does not want you to have a view > based on faith in him. He wants you to discover and validate for > yourself the substance of his words. > > ... and only when you are absolutely certain through your own > personal direct observation / experience / witness should you make > it your own view. > > ... and even to this view you should not become attached. > > metta, > nori 34021 From: norakat147 Date: Sat Jun 19, 2004 10:21pm Subject: Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hi christine, Long time, no talk. I took a break from discussion groups for a while. --- christine: > To arrive at direct penetration, one must begin > with a correct conceptual grasp of the teaching and transform that > grasp from intellectual comprehension to direct perception by > cultivating the threefold training in morality, concentration and > wisdom. --- Certainly this is the case. When we read, study and contemplate concepts, this is not speculation. It is when we adhere to them before they are validated, this is speculation. The point I was trying to emphasize is that "Many are driven by vanity (that is, the desire to gain love, good opinion, acceptance, admiration, friendship, love from others), pride (that is, delight in feeling superior to others) and ego to say what is, proclaim what is, before they experience rightly what is. And the other point which I was trying to emphasize is that I see too many people relying on scriptural authority and not enough personal experience for their views. Scripture should remain empty words until understood at the experiential level. I see too many people discussing things, and proclaiming things to each other which they may do with the belief that they're helping each other out and progressing, but is instead clearly a display of vanity, due to them very evidently not experiencing or understanding this truth first hand. With metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Nori, and all, > > Perhaps it might be difficult to penetrate the Teachings unless one > knows, correctly, what they are first? > > "Experiential right view is the penetration of the truth of the > teaching in one's own immediate experience. Thus it is also called > right view that penetrates the truths (saccapativedha- > sammaditthi). ---snip 34022 From: gazita2002 Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:14am Subject: Re: What is right view ? How right view ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi christine, > > Long time, no talk. > > I took a break from discussion groups for a while. > > ....snip.... > > And the other point which I was trying to emphasize is that I see too > many people relying on scriptural authority and not enough personal > experience for their views. Scripture should remain empty words until > understood at the experiential level. > > I see too many people discussing things, and proclaiming things to > each other which they may do with the belief that they're helping > each other out and progressing, but is instead clearly a display of > vanity, due to them very evidently not experiencing or understanding > this truth first hand. > > > With metta, > nori Dear Nori, I can understand that after 10 days of hard work at a meditation retreat, and then feeling that you have made much progress must be satisfying for you, and my question to you is how can you be so sure of what other people experience and understand? I do believe that we all have different degrees of understanding and wisdom and that its hard enough to know 'one's own' let alone the others. A recent quote from Howard: 'in reality no-one is doing anything, at any time. Cetana and all the other mental states arise by conditions and perform their functions accordingly. No-one can push or direct them to be any other way'. I think we have to be very careful when we are judging the others, we really have no idea what the others' cittas are at any given time. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 34023 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 1:41am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hi Christine and everyone, It is possibly just a matter of semantics, but I would have thought that it is not the Teachings that are to be penetrated, but the nature of reality. I see the Teachings as a guide or method toward this end, not an end in themselves, or to be studied for themselves without constantly checking "is this how it really is". Herman -----Original Message----- From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Sent: Sunday, 20 June 2004 12:25 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hello Nori, and all, Perhaps it might be difficult to penetrate the Teachings unless one knows, correctly, what they are first? 34024 From: nidive Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Hi Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen, > You¡¦re right, it is ¡¥aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¦. But, how do we > know the Pali term ¡¥aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¦ includes > ¡§cessation of perception & felling¡¨ ? The Kitagirisutta sutta > seems not clarify this. Is the term explained in other suttas? I was curious about the word "santaa" and I checked it up in PTS Pali-English dictionary. "Santaa" could mean "peace, bliss, nibbana". Perhaps "arupa santa vimokkha" actually refers to the "cessation of perception & feeling"? I find this to be a very high possibility. According to the Buddha, nibbana is the ultimate peace or bliss. And the "cessation of perception & feeling" provides just that very experience of ultimate peace or bliss here and now while an arahant is still alive. When an arahant attains "cessation of perception & feeling", all bodily, verbal and mental formations cease temporarily. And according to DN 15, it can be inferred that the "cessation of perception & feeling" is an arupa vimokkha. Perhaps because the attainment of the "cessation of perception & feeling" is very similar to parinibbana, that is why an arahant who attains this vimokkha is called "released in both ways"? That is, both here and now, and at death. > If ¡¥aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¦ are proved by suttas as including > ¡§cessation of perception & felling¡¨, people still could argue > otherwise-- The Buddha did not explicitly deny in the sutta the > possibility of PARTIAL ¡§aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¨, so PARTIAL > ¡§aaruppaa santaa vimokhaa¡¨ can¡¦t be rule out without persuasive > reasons. I think a beautiful thing about the nikayas is that we can cross reference between suttas. And such cross referencing is very important in helping us to understand brief statements and phrases. I feel that if we cross reference to DN 15, it is very clear that an arhant is released both ways if and only if the "cessation of perception & feeling" is attained. > I check the Pali texts and find this sutta quite supports your > view that ¡§cessation of perception and feeling¡¨ is the official > criteria. > ... > It is also interesting to look at the Pannavimuttasutta, just next > to the Ubhatobhagavimuttasutta, where Pannavimutta arahant is said > to have ¡§cessation of perception and feeling¡¨ too. Actually, in that vaggo, there are 10 suttas. All of them were preached by Venerable Ananda to Venerable Udayi. It is very interesting to read the first sutta of that vaggo, which talks about obstructions, how the dimension of neither perception & non-perception can be an obstruction, and how one destroys the asavas by overcoming that dimension and attaining the cessation of perception & feeling. It seems that to those who are very adept at the eight jhanas, the eight jhanas and the cessation of perception & feeling is taught. To those less adept, the jhanas from the first rupa jhana up to the dimension of nothingness is taught. To those even less adept, only the four rupa jhanas are taught. ALso, I don't think I know of a sutta where "released in both ways" is mentioned when the "cessation of perception & feeling" is not mentioned too. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-036.html "Thus, as far as the perception-attainments go, that is as far as gnosis-penetration goes. As for these two spheres -- the attainment of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception & the attainment of the cessation of feeling & perception -- I tell you that they are to be rightly explained by those monks who are meditators, skilled in attaining, skilled in attaining & emerging, who have attained & emerged in dependence on them." --------------------------------------------------------------------- Regards, Swee Boon 34025 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:48am Subject: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hello Herman, all, I'd like to say it was just semantics - however, it was sloppy writing:-). The Dhamma that the Buddha realised at his enlightenment, is in the Teachings he spent forty five years passing on to his disciples. These are recorded in the Tipitaka and basically deal with reality - the true nature of all dhammas. As you say, it is the nature of reality that is to be penetrated. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Christine and everyone, > > It is possibly just a matter of semantics, but I would have thought that > it is not the Teachings that are to be penetrated, but the nature of > reality. I see the Teachings as a guide or method toward this end, not > an end in themselves, or to be studied for themselves without constantly > checking "is this how it really is". > > Herman 34026 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:48am Subject: Re: Liberated in both ways (was, ¦^ÂСG?^???G...) Dear Tzung-kuen (and Swee Boon) Hello, and welcome to the list from me. I'm following this discussion between yourself and Swee Boon with interest (and with some difficulty!). I find that the expression 'ubhatobhagavimutta' appears in SN 8:7, and in a footnote to this reference in the 'Connected Discourses of the Buddha' translation, Bhikkhu Bodhi says "Those liberated in both ways ('ubhatobhagavimutta') are arahants who attain arahantship along with mastery over the formless meditative attainments." This suggests to me that in Bhikkhu Bodhi's view 'liberated in both' ways refers specifically to the role of the formless meditative attainments (arupa-jhanas) at the moment of attaining arahantship for the person, rather than to all persons who meet the twin criteria of (a) being an arahant and (b) having mastery over the arupa jhanas, since these 2 attributes can be present without the latter having any role in the attainment of arahantship. Is this your understanding also? Jon --- Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > Dear Swee Boon > > Thanks for your reply. > > > If we take DN 15 as it is, it should be very clear that an arahant > > is released in both ways if and only if that arahant possesses all > > the eight vimokkhas. > > > > In fact, the criteria for being classified as "released in both > > ways" is the attainment of the "cessation of perception & feeling". > > The critierias showed in the Nikayas themselves for > 'ubhatobhagavimutta' seem to be varied. > In Kitagirisutta (M 1 477,PTS), an arahant who has arupa jhanas is said > to be 'ubhatobhagavimutta'. It seems that in A 4 452-53 even an ariya > who has only 1st jhana can be a ubhatobhagavimutta. > According to Vism, and other Pali commentaries, the criteria for > this is arupajjhana, an arahant who has any of the arupajjanas can be > said to be ubhatobhagavimutta. > > metta > > Tzung-kuen 34027 From: nidive Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 3:32am Subject: Re: B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Hi Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen, > ALso, I don't think I know of a sutta where "released in both ways" > is mentioned when the "cessation of perception & feeling" is not > mentioned too. Forgot! Of course, besides Kitagirisutta. > With regard to the question how to interpret phrase ¡§one does > not attain the eight vimokkhas¡¨, do you suggest that the phrase > doesn¡¦t indicate the possibility that one has none of the > vimokkhas? I don't think we can infer such a possibility from this sutta phrase. There is not sufficient surrounding textual evidence for us to infer such a possibility with a good level of confidence. But that doesn't mean that such a possibility doesn't exist which could possibly be supported elsewhere in other suttas. But I think the fact that the Buddha attributes those who experience the eight vimokkhas as "recluses bloomed with a thousand petals" shows the importance that he places on the attainment of the cessation of perception & feeling. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-041.html [9] "The thought occurred to me: 'What if I, with the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, were to enter & remain in the cessation of perception & feeling?' But my heart didn't leap up at the cessation of perception & feeling, didn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace. The thought occurred to me: 'What is the cause, what is the reason, why my heart doesn't leap up at the cessation of perception & feeling, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace?' Then the thought occurred to me: 'I haven't seen the drawback of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception; I haven't pursued that theme. I haven't understood the reward of the cessation of perception & feeling; I haven't familiarized myself with it. That's why my heart doesn't leap up at the cessation of perception & feeling, doesn't grow confident, steadfast, or firm, seeing it as peace.' "Then the thought occurred to me: 'If, having seen the drawback of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, I were to pursue that theme; and if, having understood the reward of the cessation of perception & feeling, I were to familiarize myself with it, there's the possibility that my heart would leap up at the cessation of perception & feeling, grow confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace.' "So at a later time, having seen the drawback of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, I pursued that theme; having understood the reward of the cessation of perception & feeling, I familiarized myself with it. My heart leaped up at the cessation of perception & feeling, grew confident, steadfast, & firm, seeing it as peace. With the complete transcending of the dimension of neither perception nor non-perception, I entered & remained in the cessation of perception & feeling. And as I saw with discernment, the mental fermentations went to their total end. "Ananda, as long as I had not attained & emerged from these nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments in forward & backward order in this way, I did not claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & common people. But as soon as I had attained & emerged from these nine step-by-step dwelling-attainments in forward & backward order in this way, then I did claim to have directly awakened to the right self-awakening unexcelled in the cosmos with its devas, Maras, & Brahmas, with its contemplatives & priests, its royalty & common people. Knowledge & vision arose in me: 'My release is unshakable. This is the last birth. There is now no further becoming.'" --------------------------------------------------------------------- I think this sutta passage shows lots of similarity with that of the conversation between Venerable Ananda and Venerable Udayi. Regards, Swee Boon 34028 From: Philip Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:50am Subject: Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hi Nori, and all Nori: >I see too many people discussing things, and proclaiming things to >each other which they may do with the belief that they're helping >each other out and progressing, but is instead clearly a display of >vanity, due to them very evidently not experiencing or understanding >this truth first hand. On the other hand, if you are seeing people without conceit (which is what you mean by vanity, I take it) it means that you have the good fortune to be associating with enlightened ones. Conceit is an unwholesome mental state (cetasika) that will rise and fall away again in a conditioned way until it is eradicated at some stage of enlightnment - I forget which one, but if I recall correctly only the Arahat has completely eradicated conceit. I feel conceit about being able to remind you of this - but at least I'm aware of my conceit. And because conceit, like all conditioned realities, is impermanent and falls away, it can come and go in close proximity to wholesome states free of conceit. I read about this first, and understood it conceptually, and this led to observation of mental states which is easy enough to do at such a crude level. Would I have done so without conceptual understanding? I doubt it. I think it would be very unwise to try to plunge into direct experience without explicit guidance from the Buddha's teaching. You might end up still on the path, but the odds are against it, I would think. And the Buddha's teaching must be understood in conventional terms (ie conceptual) before it can be understood direcly, in my opinion. Metta, Phil 34029 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hi Nori, I read your post with interest. Too much 'scripturizing' and not enough meditation probably does produce a less productive practice, and the vice versa may be true as well: too much meditation and not enough scripture may produce a less effective practice. It seems that the one feeds the other while the other leads the other, and then they switch roles along an unfolding path of discovery and confirmation. Somewhere there is a balance point between 'self'-discovery and following the guidance of a teacher who has been there before. But since we are 'pet-peeving' here :) I'll add mine as well: where is the conversation on any of these sites regarding the practice of morality in our daily lives? I know that I can talk for hours about jhanna this and jhana that and sutta this and sutta that--but why no conversations about the practical implementation of sila? I find this very curious. The Buddha certainly seemed to believe that a discipline of ethics was critical to the path--it's given as the starting point for the path in many traditions, and a mainstay of the practice for even very advanced students. And yet, it's probably not an oversight that these conversations don't occur. There are practical difficulties to having them. For one, I'm not exactly sure how to have such a conversation. For another, there seems to be a sense of uncomfortability with having the conversations, an awkwardness for some reason. Could it be that, in the West at least, our view of Buddhism is so 'monasticized' that meditation and scripture has become buddhism? Could it be that we are for some reason reluctant to talk about morality because it's at that point where morality and ethics intersect our worldy life that the rubber of practice really hits the road of practical living: it's where all the dirty little failures are kept--how we cheated on our federal taxes; kept the two dollors that the check-out girl at the supermarket acidentally gave us as excess change; went to a township planing meeting and argued against a parcel of land being rezoned trailer park because we don't want 'those kind of people' on our tax base; went to a party and drank seven 'tequila slammers?' Maybe it's easier to be pure by being ethereal? I don't know. It's just a very curious disconnect. Respectfully, Bill gazita2002 wrote: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > Hi christine, > > Long time, no talk. > > I took a break from discussion groups for a while. > > ....snip.... > > And the other point which I was trying to emphasize is that I see too > many people relying on scriptural authority and not enough personal > experience for their views. Scripture should remain empty words until > understood at the experiential level. > > I see too many people discussing things, and proclaiming things to > each other which they may do with the belief that they're helping > each other out and progressing, but is instead clearly a display of > vanity, due to them very evidently not experiencing or understanding > this truth first hand. > > > With metta, > nori Dear Nori, I can understand that after 10 days of hard work at a meditation retreat, and then feeling that you have made much progress must be satisfying for you, and my question to you is how can you be so sure of what other people experience and understand? I do believe that we all have different degrees of understanding and wisdom and that its hard enough to know 'one's own' let alone the others. A recent quote from Howard: 'in reality no-one is doing anything, at any time. Cetana and all the other mental states arise by conditions and perform their functions accordingly. No-one can push or direct them to be any other way'. I think we have to be very careful when we are judging the others, we really have no idea what the others' cittas are at any given time. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita 34030 From: agriosinski Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:33am Subject: [dsg] Re: Now, what? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Agrios and everyone, Hi Herman. I am glad to see your answer today, I was thinking a lot about your last remarks and example with airport. > I'll start with your last remarks, because I think that is charted > territory. (I've been there) :-) > > You can have absolute confidence that any thought of shoulding, musting, > having to etc is generated by the ego. You can also have absolute > confidence that the ego will never do anything to undermine itself. > So the loop of "I must find out whether I need to do this or that" is > itself an ego-bolstering device. Rather than being that thought, > identifying with it, it is possible to just observe the thought, watch > it come and watch it go. But, I can also observe the observing thought and possibly I can go even deeper into this observation process. This leads me to conclusion, that this is nothing else but self cloning itself just to enjoy the feeling of meditation. In other words, this the same sankhara rooted in the same lobha. It is thought observing other thoughts. Multitasking :) If so, this is nothing else but self mascarading as an owner of meditation progress. There is a clear ownership moment and clear pleasure of this achievement. In fact there shouldn't be anything of this sort if there was no ego involved. > With regards to your first paragraph, I may be misreading you, but it > reads like all thoughts and awarenesses are considered self-views. Is > that what you are saying? Not sure if all thoughts. Technically, there should be possible thought not rooted in ignorance. From my observation, every single thought ever went thru my head was a self-thought. In various degrees, but all of them were and are stained with an idea of myself and strong belive in it. > Self-view doesn't make itself. Like every thought it arises because of > conditions, and ceases because of conditions. Of course it does. Thought can condition another thought and self -view is nothing real, is just a thought. What self does, it JUMPS into every opportunity to manifest its true existence and maintains an illusion, mirage of its important and central existence. Thats my whole point. >At every international > airport these days there is close vigilance and scrutiny of what is > allowed on the plane. It is possible, likewise, to come to see the close > scrutiny and vigilance that is already happening with regards to what is > allowed through the gates to the mind. Very selectively, the passenger > manifest of "house of cards" airlines is being groomed according to the > prevailing policy. > > It is possible to come to see what that policy is. It is also possible to imagine there have to be an airport without any policy. Just go and fly. > It is also possible to tamper with the policy. For a while, make the > policy that nothing gets on board. Observe how plenty of thoughts > present themselves for boarding nonetheless. No need to let them > through. See what presents itself if something slips through. Reaffirm > the policy. Watch the policy change as candidates present themselves > with pressing arguments for boarding. Realize that you have been > watching not-self in action. Or I was watching Self making stronger point about its need to exist. And be happy about it. > > Hope the airline metaphor wasn't too silly :-) I like it. > Herman metta, Agrios 34031 From: agriosinski Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Now, what? [...] > In other words, this the same sankhara rooted in the same lobha. Should be: In other words, this is the same sankhara rooted in the same moha. > Agrios 34032 From: jonoabb Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:59am Subject: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi, Rob Ep and Howard Howard, I agree with your comments here ;-)). Rob, I think the Pali word 'nibbidaa' is a term for kusala of a high degree. In other contexts it refers for example to 'powerful insight knowledge' (Comy to Anguttara Nikaya) or one of the 9 insight knowledges described as follows (CMA IX, 33 Guide): "(5) Knowledge of disenchantment (nibbidaa~naa.na): When he sees all formations as danger, he becomes disenchanted with them, and takes no delight in the field of formations belonging to any realm of existence." Because of the limitations of conventional language, there are quite a number of instances of unwholesome-sounding terms used for wholesome dhammas. As Howard says, we need to consider just the literal meaning and not the conventional connotations. For example, another in the series of 9 insight knowledges just mentioned is: "(3) Knowledge of the fearful (bhaya~naa.na): As the meditator contemplates the dissolution of formations in all three periods of time, he recognizes that all such dissolving things in all realms of existence are necessarily fearful." Regards Jon --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob (and Jon) - > > In a message dated 6/19/04 2:33:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > > Dear Jon, > > Thanks for these excerpts and explanations. I am surprised to find > > that "revulsion" rather than 'detachment" or "understanding" is > > recommended towards the five aggregates. Why is revulsion necessary > > do you think? I always thought it was an important aspect of the > > Buddha's teaching that both attraction and aversion should be > > released, and revulsion is the most powerful form of aversion. Do you > > have an explanation for this? I find it perplexing, as I always > > thought the Buddha taught that aversion was really a form of > > attachment to the object thus rejected. > > > > Best, > > Robert Ep > > > ============================== > I suspect that the English words such as 'revulsion', 'disgust', > 'disenchantment', and 'disillusionment' that translate Pali terms terms carry > connotations that should be dropped, and merely accept the *literal* meaning of the > terms. What I mean is to adopt the following: > > revulsion = "turning away/back" (due to disinterest, rather than > aversion) > disgust = "lack of taste for or particular interest in" > disenchantment = "being freed of enchantment by/for something" > disillusionment = "being freed of illusion with regard to something" > > With metta, > Howard 34033 From: agriosinski Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:41am Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Agrios, Hi Rob, let me make short review: > > > so sati is only possible when the self is dropped > > > out of the picture? > > Any mental state which includes attachment to a view of self must be > > unwholesome (ditthi arises in lobha-mula akusala cittas). > > All worldlings (not yet Sotapanna) still have a latent view of self > > so that, when conditions are suitable, a view of self can arise. In other words, all mental states of common worldlings and not Sotapannas are unwholesome. All at least - almost all. Consequently sati can not arise as long as there is a personality belief. > >At the moment > > of "pure giving", there is sati because, at that moment, the object > > has been seen as it truly is without any distortion from latent > > lobha, latent dosa or latent moha. Now, you say there is sati in the moment of "pure giving". I decided to ask what this pure giving is, since it clearly have to remove personality belief from the picture (no moha) and this would open opportunity for panna to arise for small tiny citta moment. Your answer is: > Each mental state exists for a brief instant and performs a specific > function. When I wrote "pure giving", I wanted to emphasize that I > was referring to the split second when giving was happening, not the > other mental states that might arise close to that event. In reality, > mental states arise and fall so quickly that people sometimes > mistakenly merge discrete events such as "thinking about how much the > gift cost" and "pure giving" into one. Now I understand your latest remarks to the way Buddhism is practiced as a mental exercise and not the way of life. It moved me deeply when I read this remark and now I understand why. Returning to sati. Sati is not to be achieved. It will arise when conditions are present. I will replace all this chaos and confusion and that will be it. The stream will be reached, but no one will reach it. When there is a split second of wholesome deed, they are most precious steps on our way to enlightment. But... there is still self illusion Rob. How there can be any citta without it? And my last question was: > Your last question, "Isn't object (the one to be seen by sati) just a > creation of self? Are there objects outside of thinking?" is > extremely interesting. [...] > Citta is the process of being aware of an object (an activity). Citta > is also that which is aware of an object (an agent). Finally, citta > is the means by which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an > object (an instrument). > The object of a mental state and the mental state itself ( led by > citta) are different. There is a co-dependence, just as three sticks > in a tripod all depend on each other for support, but the object is > not created by the self. I am confused. I know that citta is aware of an object. I don't know what the objects are. [...] > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 34034 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. on Vis. note 35, health. Hi Larry, op 19-06-2004 19:51 schreef Larry op LBIDD@w...: > "'Profitable' in the sense of health, blamelessness, and pleasant > result (see Pm.463)." >> I think it is reasonable to say that kamma produced rupa is kusala, > akusala, or indeterminate. N: Of rupa it is not said that it is kusala or akusala or vipaka. But, as we learnt, kamma is one of the conditions that produces rupa, and thus we can say: it is originated by kamma, physical result of kamma. Vipaka is used only for the mental result of kamma, namely: citta and cetasikas. However, rupa is among the indeterminate dhammas, it is neither kusala nor akusala. L:For example, if I fall and the body is > injured that injury is kamma produced and unhealthy regardless of > whether I am conscious of it or not. N: This is a situation and when we analyse it we should be very precise. The painful bodily feeling is akusala vipaka. Injury: a situation or conventional term. What is experienced through the sense-doors? Those experiences are vipakacittas. We may see colour and after that think of injury. L: Recently you fell while crossing a stream. There was only very minor > injury but your clothing became wet. I would say "wearing wet > clothing" is inherently undesirable.... this is akusala kamma vipaka. The question is whether the rupas > of "wet clothing" could be classed as akusala in the same sense as a > bodily injury. On the one hand you chose those rupas but on the other > hand they are temperature produced rupas. >N: Wet clothing: a situation again. Many different moments of experiencing objects through the senses and thinking about them. Cold: when it is in the body it can be produced by one of the four factors, when outside it is only produced by temperature. The experience of cold is vipakacitta produced by kamma. L Also, I am interested in whatever abhidhamma has to say about mental > health. What is mental health? How is generosity healthy? N: See my previous mail. Generosity is very healthy, at such moments there are no defilements arising, no mental sickness. It is a way of becoming less selfish. If we do not learn to be generous in daily life, how can we ever get rid of the wrong view of self? Nina. 34035 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] One doorway for beginners? Hello Philip, op 20-06-2004 00:03 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: quoting Khun Sujin: > > "The beginner is not keen enough to be aware of all objects > which appear. The beginner should begin with one doorway at a time > until he is skillful enough to be able to be aware of any object. The > is the way. One should not try another way and neglect awareness of > the object which appears. The beginner begins to develop right > awareness of the object which appears, that is the duty of the > beginner." > > This is what I've been wanting to do, but held back from > designating a doorway to focus on, having read elsewhere that > attempting to go about it in such a focussed way would be a self- > driven exercise and defeat the purpose. N: The idea is not focussing on a specific doorway. You understood that very well. We cannot predict what sati will be aware of. For some people, of course by conditions, hardness will appear to sati more often, for others sound. If a dhamma appears only through the ears or only through the bodysense, there is no need to worry. We are all beginners. Gradually there will be more types of realities appearing one at a time to the different doorways, but nobody can direct sati. Moreover, it is understanding that matters. A. Sujin used to say: just let sati arise by its own conditions. She also warned us not to measure or evaluate so much the frequency of sati or reason about it. Thinking about the sati that just happened is a kind of holding on and it does not help. Nina. 34036 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 0:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] oral tradition Dear Tzung Kuen, I appreciate your well documented posts. I just have a few points I would like to comment on. op 20-06-2004 00:24 schreef Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen op s4060239@s...: > Swee Boon: I don't take the VM & commentaries as canonical references. They >> could be wrong. > T. Kuen: Yes, Pali commentators could be wrong. Even the Pali Canon itself could be > wrong. >...(snipped) It¹s difficult to > tell definitely which version is ³right², or is really said by the Buddha. > Given that the Buddhist Canon was co-recited by the disciples after Buddha¹s death and was only orally transmitted down from > generation to generation for more than 200 years, it will be questionable to > take the passages of any set of the Canon to be the spoken words of the > historical Buddha. Furthermore, the language which the Buddha used, probably > old Maagadhii, according to K.R. Norman, is certainly not Pali. (K.R. Norman, > A Philological Approach to Buddhism, p. 62.) N: I remember we had discussions about Maagadhii and Pali on our Pali list. I understood that these were the same. But there are different opinions. As to oral tradition, I wrote before about it to Andrew. When texts are recited in a large group there is so much control, try it out yourself. They were recited in very large groups, hundreds of people. Moreover, those people were outstanding, conscientious, wise and virtuous, they were arahats. To me that is a guarantee. As I wrote to Larry, for my subco to the Visuddhimagga study I have to compare quite a number of texts. I get so impressed about their consistency. Many texts are literally the same. They contain an enormous number of quotes from the Tipitaka. That is what I found out myself. T.Kuen: Though the opinions of Theravadin commentators may sometimes be wrong, I > prefer to consult the Pali commentaries from time to time in that the > doctrines they give are quite beautiful and practical. N: I would always like concrete examples when people say that they are wrong. With Suan's help I entangled one example from a well known scholar. You find the contents beautiful and practical. That can make us think about their source. Nina. 34037 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 0:27pm Subject: Ethics in Daily LIfe was([dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ?) Hello Bill, and all, Nice to see you here. Good post! I agree somewhat with what you are saying - even though this list often mentions buddhism in daily life - and, indeed that is the title of one of Nina's great books - the discussion can often appear to be an evermore narrowly focused defining of abhidhammic terms, with much quoting and re-quoting of ancient texts, and not much living being done. But I think that is likely to be an incomplete picture. Life is being lived by each of the over 400 members of this group - we live in all areas of the globe, we have endearing/infuriating families, mix with others daily, are in good or ill health, many of us work in stressful jobs, we have relationships, we have admirable and not-so-admirable qualities, and all experience suffering in one form or another. The Buddha's gradual training usually started with teaching Dana (generosity) which then accompanies every step of the way, then the development of Sila (virtue) in the familiar form of the five precept-summary, moving onto Bhavana (mental development) and culminating in the development of Wisdom (panna). Ethics in daily life is of great interest, and I'm sure some of us will be happy to contribute to any thread you start. :-) BTW, occasionally, I do mention dilemmas from my daily work experience - this one was brought to mind by an off-list post from a dhamma friend a day or so ago: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31771 Any thoughts? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bill Saint-Onge wrote: > Hi Nori, > > I read your post with interest. Too much 'scripturizing' and not enough meditation probably does produce a less productive practice, and the vice versa may be true as well: too much meditation and not enough scripture may produce a less effective practice. It seems that the one feeds the other while the other leads the other, and then they switch roles along an unfolding path of discovery and confirmation. Somewhere there is a balance point between 'self'- discovery and following the guidance of a teacher who has been there before. > > But since we are 'pet-peeving' here :) I'll add mine as well: where is the conversation on any of these sites regarding the practice of morality in our daily lives? I know that I can talk for hours about jhanna this and jhana that and sutta this and sutta that- -but why no conversations about the practical implementation of sila? > > I find this very curious. The Buddha certainly seemed to believe that a discipline of ethics was critical to the path--it's given as the starting point for the path in many traditions, and a mainstay of the practice for even very advanced students. > > And yet, it's probably not an oversight that these conversations don't occur. There are practical difficulties to having them. For one, I'm not exactly sure how to have such a conversation. For another, there seems to be a sense of uncomfortability with having the conversations, an awkwardness for some reason. > > Could it be that, in the West at least, our view of Buddhism is so 'monasticized' that meditation and scripture has become buddhism? Could it be that we are for some reason reluctant to talk about morality because it's at that point where morality and ethics intersect our worldy life that the rubber of practice really hits the road of practical living: it's where all the dirty little failures are kept--how we cheated on our federal taxes; kept the two dollors that the check-out girl at the supermarket acidentally gave us as excess change; went to a township planing meeting and argued against a parcel of land being rezoned trailer park because we don't want 'those kind of people' on our tax base; went to a party and drank seven 'tequila slammers?' > > Maybe it's easier to be pure by being ethereal? I don't know. > > It's just a very curious disconnect. > > Respectfully, > > Bill 34038 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 2:24pm Subject: Purpose of our Lives Dear Group, Isn't this excerpt from Ven. Anzan Hoshin roshi just a great description of the bodies we value so much? "this skin bag that holds the meat and jellies and sinews and bones. What is it? In the Buddha's Discourses, he points out over and over again that this bodymind is subject to birth, old age, sickness and death. It is filled with fluids and gels. Even if it isn't washed thoroughly, within a few hours it begins to steam off sour smells. It gets cut, it gets burnt. But even if nothing extraordinary happens to it like stepping on a thorn or being spattered with hot cooking oil, it aches and twinges and tires. Work the heavy weight machines, bicycle, row, and ski, do as many calisthenics as you can every day for as many years as you can and still it will sag and droop and bloat and puff and wrinkle. Ovaries become cancerous, prostate glands grow malignant tumours. Memories fade. The eyes weaken. Fits of coughing. Blood in your urine. Blood in your stool. Death. The human body mind is essentially a twenty-four foot tube that is curled up and carried about in a carriage of bones strung together with tendons and upholstered with skin. It has developed a sac of cells mounted at the top, above the entry orifice of the tube, that coordinates the movements of its carriage. It has developed bulges to digest what is dropped into the entry orifice and to circulate fluids and gases that maintain the carriage. What is it for? Everything that it is about happens between the mouth and the anus, dropping stuff in one end and dropping it out the other. Why does it do this? So that it can do it again. Eventually the worm becomes worn out and the bony carriage become rickety and falls over. Then it is goes into the entry orifice of many many other smaller worms. Before it does so, it often maneuvers coupling with other worms in bony carriages which then creates a new worm from bits and pieces of the old ones. Why? So that this way of putting stuff in one end and out the other can go on. And on. And on. Is there a point to all of this? Yes. Putting stuff in one end and dropping it out the other. What is the purpose of all of this? To put stuff in one end and out the other. The human bodymind is not pointed towards any goal. Evolution has no goal. There is no master plan guiding what happens. It all just emerges from interactions from the bottom up. The universe is not arranged to teach you any sort of lesson except how to put stuff in and drop stuff out and to avoid being stuff that is put into something else. You are not here to evolve to a higher plane of consciousness. You are here to eat and shit. Specifically as mammals, we are here to eat little plant tubes and break down their fibers into compost that is useful for the plant tubes in their putting stuff in one end and out the other. Or at least that is the ecological niche we have adapted to filling. It?s not much, but it's a living. In fact, if we want to get grandiose about what the human bodymind is for, I would have you know that it is a member of an elite subset of mammals called predators that keep the population of other mammals under control so that they do not damage the systems of which they are a part. The thing is however, I have heard that structurally, the most perfect predators in design and most efficient at putting stuff in and pushing it out are cats. And, uh, in fact, we are so bloody poor at what we do that we have killed the vast majority of everything on the planet. We have dropped the stuff in and dropped it out. And it seems as if we are up now to our eyebrows in it. And, as a species, sinking. Now, you might think that this is just some horrible story that I am telling you to scare you. Or that I am just joking. I am not joking. Yes, this is a story because I am telling it in a particular way to make certain essential points clear that should be obvious to everyone but tend not to be. But what I am describing in this story is true. You might not want to hear this story. This might be unpleasant to face. You might want to hear instead about Allah or Brahma or the Omega Point or human beings being evolved by the universe so that it can know itself. However, if you do that, you are not only lying to yourself and others but are propagating the kind of delusions that have encouraged us to go forth and multiply and claim mastery over the birds in the air and the beasts in the field. This is all just part of why we have done such a bad job at holding up our end of the ecological niche we once helped support and since have come to have devastated the ecology of the planet as a whole. But, on what might be the bright side for some, at least we still get to drop smaller worms and tubes into our upper orifice and drop them out the other end. The bodymind has no other purpose. It is not about anything else. The universe has no purpose. It is not about anything else. Stars forming from the gathering of gases and eating themselves from the inside out over billions of years, dropping heat and light out their other end into blank space. Insects that live only a few hours. A human lifespan. In and out of the tubes." -Ven. Anzan Hoshin roshi, continuing the teisho, 'Face in the Painting' Reality series of commentaries on Dogen zenji's text 'Gabyo', November 1999 to February 2000. (posted on E-sangha by Anders Honore). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34039 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:09pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hi Bill Respectfully butting in... > > I find this very curious. The Buddha certainly seemed to believe >that a discipline of ethics was critical to the path--it's given as >the starting point for the path in many traditions, and a mainstay >of the practice for even very advanced students. Ah... Spring had come to Canada and with it a happiness and contentment settled over the country side! "Ethics", or the so called common virtues, has a western coinage! Buddha was focused on the real questions that plague human existence: his exposition of the path stresses up the purification and retification of mind, putting off all wrong views and doubts... this is not directly connected with Ethics, unless it would be a guide to correct and right effort and way of life. Every aspect of the noble path has its own practices and techniques: sila, Panna and Samadhi...the very advanced techniques as Tantra, for example, are under the Samadhi Set, but it´s not less meritory than others! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > And yet, it's probably not an oversight that these conversations don't occur. There are practical difficulties to having them. For one, I'm not exactly sure how to have such a conversation. For another, there seems to be a sense of uncomfortability with having the conversations, an awkwardness for some reason. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Just imagine the hardness of Buddha´s task, preaching on from village to village...and at índia each village and town has a proper dialect. Fortunately for the Blessed One, the dialect on all the region he wandered was the ardha-Maghadi, with variants! French language is like gold: some canadians has it in their watches...others have in their teeth...but all good canadians must have it on their minds!!!! (You have 1 second to applause me! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!) -------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Could it be that, in the West at least, our view of Buddhism is so 'monasticized' that meditation and scripture has become buddhism? Could it be that we are for some reason reluctant to talk about morality because it's at that point where morality and ethics intersect our worldy life that the rubber of practice really hits the road of practical living: it's where all the dirty little failures are kept--how we cheated on our federal taxes; kept the two dollors that the check-out girl at the supermarket acidentally gave us as excess change; went to a township planing meeting and argued against a parcel of land being rezoned trailer park because we don't want 'those kind of people' on our tax base; went to a party and drank seven 'tequila slammers?' > > Maybe it's easier to be pure by being ethereal? I don't know. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Theravada traditions are monastic at essence, in a strong and direct way... To be ethereal??? Ethereal people could do better hiring a dog team for a sled-pulling contest!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34040 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:26pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Now, what? Hi Agrios, Thank you for your very nice reply. > So the loop of "I must find out whether I need to do this or that" is > itself an ego-bolstering device. Rather than being that thought, > identifying with it, it is possible to just observe the thought, watch > it come and watch it go. A>But, I can also observe the observing thought and possibly I can go even deeper into this observation process. This leads me to conclusion, that this is nothing else but self cloning itself just to enjoy the feeling of meditation. In other words, this the same sankhara rooted in the same lobha. It is thought observing other thoughts. Multitasking :) If so, this is nothing else but self mascarading as an owner of meditation progress. There is a clear ownership moment and clear pleasure of this achievement. In fact there shouldn't be anything of this sort if there was no ego involved. ================================================================ H> What you are pointing out is logically correct. And it doesn't apply only to meditation. You could logically say it about any activity with which there is also awareness of the intention to do that activity. The problem with logic is that you cannot determine the truth of a proposition with logic. You can feed many propositions into a computer, and with infallible logic come out with complete rubbish. The old adage, rubbish in, rubbish out. Now you very well point out further down that self is just a thought. That is a much sounder proposition to feed into the logic machine than the proposition that the self is an independent agent that can do stuff of its own accord. Thoughts, at best, can be the basis for more thoughts, and more thoughts, and more thoughts. And voila, we have thickets of thoughts (that would sound very if pronounced with a lisp :-)) ===================================================================== > With regards to your first paragraph, I may be misreading you, but it > reads like all thoughts and awarenesses are considered self-views. Is > that what you are saying? Not sure if all thoughts. Technically, there should be possible thought not rooted in ignorance. From my observation, every single thought ever went thru my head was a self-thought. In various degrees, but all of them were and are stained with an idea of myself and strong belive in it. > Self-view doesn't make itself. Like every thought it arises because of > conditions, and ceases because of conditions. A>Of course it does. Thought can condition another thought and self -view is nothing real, is just a thought. What self does, it JUMPS into every opportunity to manifest its true existence and maintains an illusion, mirage of its important and central existence. Thats my whole point. ===================================================================== H>That's what happens with discursive thinking when there are false premises being fed in. Now one of the things the Buddha is renowned for is sitting very still, with a focused mind. In this state there is no discursive thinking going on. No logic. No propositions developing into enormous thickets. It is not necessary to study the exact nature of the arrow that is piercing you before you can pull it out, says the Buddha. ====================================================================== >At every international > airport these days there is close vigilance and scrutiny of what is > allowed on the plane. It is possible, likewise, to come to see the close > scrutiny and vigilance that is already happening with regards to what is > allowed through the gates to the mind. Very selectively, the passenger > manifest of "house of cards" airlines is being groomed according to the > prevailing policy. > > It is possible to come to see what that policy is. A>It is also possible to imagine there have to be an airport without any policy. Just go and fly. ======================================================================== H> Sounds like fun, if you were the only one doing it :-) The reality is that you are made to wait on the runway, you need to land with no visibility, you need to fill up with fuel, there's no air way up high etc etc. All the baggage that comes with wanting to be as free as a bird makes prisoners from the need to fly. The Buddha says that eventually the whole flying circus will come to be realised as dukkha. ======================================================================= > It is also possible to tamper with the policy. For a while, make the > policy that nothing gets on board. Observe how plenty of thoughts > present themselves for boarding nonetheless. No need to let them > through. See what presents itself if something slips through. Reaffirm > the policy. Watch the policy change as candidates present themselves > with pressing arguments for boarding. Realize that you have been > watching not-self in action. A> Or I was watching Self making stronger point about its need to exist. And be happy about it. ==================================================================== H> I don't know if Self is a very useful word to describe the cosmic flying circus. It tends to suggest agency of some sort, and I really see no evidence of that anywhere. > > Hope the airline metaphor wasn't too silly :-) A>I like it. ===================== Thanks Herman metta, Agrios 34041 From: Andrew Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:40pm Subject: Ethics in Daily LIfe was([dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ?) Hello Bill & Christine Bill wrote: > where is the conversation on any of these sites regarding the > practice of morality in our daily lives? I know that I can talk for > hours about jhanna this and jhana that and sutta this and sutta that- > -but why no conversations about the practical implementation of > sila? > > > > I find this very curious. The Buddha certainly seemed to believe > that a discipline of ethics was critical to the path--it's given as > the starting point for the path in many traditions, and a mainstay > of the practice for even very advanced students. I must confess I haven't really noticed any lack of or shying away from conversation about sila on DSG. If there is an imbalance there, may I suggest 2 possible reasons:- 1. sila pertains largely to action/behaviour. But action is not spontaneous. It is preceded by mental activity/proliferation. The key to understanding our behaviour lies therefore in the workings of our minds. Mind is the forerunner of all things. Whilst acknowledging sila, I personally tend to focus on what the Dhamma tells me about why "I" am behaving the way "I" am - be it morally good or morally bad [mineral water or tequila slammers, you might say! :-)] 2. this is an old chestnut, I know, but it's true: becoming obsessed with following rules of behaviour can become a fetter to understanding. Bill, you say that sila is crucial to the path and I agree with you. Not so long ago, I posted an excerpt from a Wheel publication by Bhikkhu Bodhi in which he explained how the kusala flowing from sila conditions the arising of future opportunities to hear and reflect upon and practice the true Dhamma. If on DSG we are hearing and reflecting upon the true Dhamma, it's good for us to bear in mind that this golden opportunity has arisen because, for example, we left those tequila slammers alone and paid our correct taxes in the past! That's not to say, of course, that if I know I cheated on my tax, I can't use that as an object for wise reflection. BTW ages ago, this list went on and on about a certain member who killed a march fly that was biting him. Was it right or wrong? Rob M and others did a lot of research into the question of killing and shared it with us and I think we all learned a lot about the Dhamma as a result. So please do raise any sila issues you would like to discuss. With best wishes Andrew 34042 From: Philip Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 4:52pm Subject: Re: Purpose of our Lives Hi Christine, and all Yum. Delicious reading with my morning coffee. These recollections of the inherent foulness of the body are helpful, no doubt about it. I do them every day, especially as I do sit ups in the hopes of having a nice flat belly to show off at the pool this summer. >The bodymind has no other purpose. It is not about >anything else. This is a predictable protest, but what of the energy that is needed to investigate realities? I think even while staying aware of the eventual fate of the body, we can be grateful for good health and energy during the short periods - mere moments in the big picture- during which we have it because it helps us to be a vessel, if you will, for the Buddha's teaching. So yes, a tube full of worms and piss and snot, but also - in brief moments- highly evolved rupa that walks upright and smiles and brings loving kindness out into the world and keeps awareness of the moment as purely as possible. There is something to be celebrated there. I love the roshi's writing - but if I were his editor I'd encourage him to slip in something about brief moments of being shining vessels. If we don't celebrate the wholesome aspects of good health, it's too easy to get caught up in unwholesome aspects. Now back to my quest for paradable abs ;) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > Isn't this excerpt from Ven. Anzan Hoshin roshi just a great > description of the bodies we value so much? > > "this skin bag that holds the meat and jellies and sinews and bones. 34043 From: Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:03pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. on Vis. note 35, health. Hi Nina, Should generosity be performed with an eye toward the mental health of the other? For example, if another wants money, needs money, must have money for the false idea of a body, should we give money and thus feed the desire for money and the false ideas of money and body? Larry 34044 From: Philip Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:10pm Subject: Make an island unto yourself Hello all A verse that puzzled me yesterday in the Dhammapada (XVIII-238- Acharya Buddharakkhita translation) "Make an island unto yourself! Strive hard and become wise! Rid of impurities and cleansed of stain, you shall not come again to brith and decay." Becoming an island sounds to me like wrapping oneself in self. Don't we want to stay open to all realities, to remain exposed to them, to see them as best we can? I suppose it is referring to development of jhanas, in which isolation from sensory stimulation would be necessary. But in daily life in the world, becoming an island would suggest very wrong practice to me. BTW, could anyone link me to a Dhammapada commentary that is available online? Rob K mentionned several when we talked, but I can't affort to buy any books now. Metta, Phil 34045 From: Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:19pm Subject: Vism.XIV 83 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 83. I. Herein, the 'profitable' is fourfold according to plane, namely, (A) of the sense sphere, (B) of the fine-material sphere, (C) of the immaterial sphere, and (D) supramundane.(36) I. A. Herein, (1)-(8) that of the 'sense sphere' is eightfold, being classified according to joy, equanimity, knowledge, and prompting, that is to say: (1) when accompanied-by-joy it is either associated-with-knowledge and unprompted, or (2) prompted; or (3) it is dissociated-from-knowledge and likewise [unprompted, or (4) prompted]; and (5) when accompanied-by-equanimity it is either associated-with-knowledge and prompted, or (6) unprompted; or (7) it is dissociated-from-knowledge [453] and likewise [unprompted, or (8) prompted]. ---------------------- Note 36. ' "Sense sphere" (kaamaavacara): here there are the two kinds of sense desire (kaama), sense desire as basis (vatthu-kaama) and sense desire as defilement (kilesa-kaama). Of these, sense desire as [objective] basis particularized as the five cords of sense desire (pa~nca-kaama-gu.na = dimensions of sensual desires), is desired (kaamiyati). Sense desire as defilement, which is craving, desires (kaameti). The sense sphere (kaamavacara) is where these two operate (avacaranti) together. But what is that? It is the elevenfold sense-desire becoming, i.e. hell, asura demons, ghosts, animals, human beings, and six sensual-sphere heavens. So too with the fine-material sphere and the immaterial sphere, taking 'fine-material' as craving for the fine-material too, and 'immaterial' as craving for the immaterial too. It crosses over (uttarati) from the world (loka), thus it is supramundane (lokuttara)' (Pm. 464). 34046 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:28pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hello Icaro, Out of compassion and metta, put me out of my misery! :-) Are you really in Canada at this moment? Or are you reading a book about Canada, or .... ? If you are there, what are you doing there? in Canada, I mean? Why? Now - whatever you do Icaro, don't go near their railways ... you know your tendency to follow non-existent routes!! :-) Keep on the chamomile tea! cheers, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Hi Bill > > > Respectfully butting in... > > > > I find this very curious. The Buddha certainly seemed to believe > >that a discipline of ethics was critical to the path--it's given as > >the starting point for the path in many traditions, and a mainstay > >of the practice for even very advanced students. > > > Ah... Spring had come to Canada and with it a happiness and > contentment settled over the country side! > "Ethics", or the so called common virtues, has a western coinage! > Buddha was focused on the real questions that plague human existence: > his exposition of the path stresses up the purification and > retification of mind, putting off all wrong views and doubts... this > is not directly connected with Ethics, unless it would be a guide to > correct and right effort and way of life. > Every aspect of the noble path has its own practices and > techniques: sila, Panna and Samadhi...the very advanced techniques as > Tantra, for example, are under the Samadhi Set, but it´s not less > meritory than others! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > > > And yet, it's probably not an oversight that these conversations > don't occur. There are practical difficulties to having them. For > one, I'm not exactly sure how to have such a conversation. For > another, there seems to be a sense of uncomfortability with having > the conversations, an awkwardness for some reason. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > > Just imagine the hardness of Buddha´s task, preaching on from > village to village...and at índia each village and town has a proper > dialect. Fortunately for the Blessed One, the dialect on all the > region he wandered was the ardha-Maghadi, with variants! > French language is like gold: some canadians has it in their > watches...others have in their teeth...but all good canadians must > have it on their minds!!!! > > (You have 1 second to applause me! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!!!) > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > > > > Could it be that, in the West at least, our view of Buddhism is > so 'monasticized' that meditation and scripture has become buddhism? > Could it be that we are for some reason reluctant to talk about > morality because it's at that point where morality and ethics > intersect our worldy life that the rubber of practice really hits the > road of practical living: it's where all the dirty little failures > are kept--how we cheated on our federal taxes; kept the two dollors > that the check-out girl at the supermarket acidentally gave us as > excess change; went to a township planing meeting and argued against > a parcel of land being rezoned trailer park because we don't > want 'those kind of people' on our tax base; went to a party and > drank seven 'tequila slammers?' > > > > Maybe it's easier to be pure by being ethereal? I don't know. > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > Theravada traditions are monastic at essence, in a strong and > direct way... To be ethereal??? Ethereal people could do better > hiring a dog team for a sled-pulling contest!!!! > > Mettaya, Ícaro 34047 From: Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 5:54pm Subject: Canada/Jim/Icaro Icaro!!! If you see Jim (the Pali guy) up there, tell him we miss him. Larry! 34048 From: norakat147 Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:08pm Subject: Re: What is right view ? How right view ? hi azita, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "gazita2002" wrote: ... and my question to you is how can you be > so sure of what other people experience and understand? ... I think we have to be very careful when we are judging the > others, we really have no idea what the others' cittas are at any > given time. > > Patience, courage and good cheer, > Azita When I wrote this I had in mind some past discussions I have read and this was very seemingly the case from the content of disussion, but you right, I can't be sure about that; I take back my conviction. I just wanted to remind others how the mind process of creating an outward display for others hinders progression in investigation toward realization. Due to ones ego, they can remain very hidden to oneself. Even concious of them, these processes still remain in my mind as well, and I have yet to root them out. with metta, nori 34049 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:10pm Subject: Re: Make an island unto yourself Hi Phil, Here are a couple of links: Ven. Narada Thera's translations and stories: http://www.buddhistvihara.com/online/narada/ The word "diipam" can be translated as either 'lamp' or 'island' and there is an echo here of the Blessed One's last words to Aananda. (DN16) " Now I am frail, Ananda, old, aged, far gone in years. This is my eightieth year and my life is spent... Therefore, Ananda, be an island to yourself, a refuge to yourself, seeking no external refuge; with Dhamma as your island, Dhamma as your refuge, seeking no other refuge. And how, Ananda, is a monk an island to himself, a refuge to himself, seeking no external refuge; with Dhamma as his island, Dhamma as his refuge, seeking no other refuge? When he dwells contemplating the body in the body, earnestly, clearly comprehending, and mindfully, after having overcome desire and sorrow in regard to the world, then, truly, he is an island to himself, a refuge to himself, seeking on external refuge; having Dhamma as his island and refuge, seeking no other refuge..." Love the pictures in this one, by Ven. W. Sarada Thero: http://www.buddhanet.net/dhammapada/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hello all > > A verse that puzzled me yesterday in the Dhammapada (XVIII-238- > Acharya Buddharakkhita translation) > > "Make an island unto yourself! Strive hard and become wise! Rid of > impurities and cleansed of stain, you shall not come again to brith > and decay." > > Becoming an island sounds to me like wrapping oneself in self. > Don't we want to stay open to all realities, to remain exposed to > them, to see them as best we can? I suppose it is referring to > development of jhanas, in which isolation from sensory stimulation > would be necessary. But in daily life in the world, becoming an > island would suggest very wrong practice to me. > > BTW, could anyone link me to a Dhammapada commentary that is > available online? Rob K mentionned several when we talked, but I > can't affort to buy any books now. > > Metta, > Phil 34050 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 6:57pm Subject: Re: Purpose of our Lives Hi Phil, and all, Well, as it happens, there was a little more in the original excerpt that I left off as not pertinent to the foulness of the body post. I include it below: "But the nested hierarchy of knowings that are gathered as this bodymind have developed systems of knowing such as seeing, hearing, touching, tasting, smelling, thinking, and feeling. These developed as means to gather stuff that could be dropped in and dropped out. But they are so bright. With them we can take care of each other. We can show some interest in the stuff we drop into our upper opening and be able to learn from this. We can create and listen to music. We can stand and walk and sit and lie down with dignity. We can dance. We can paint. We can do all of this and more. Within each of these modes of knowing, the knowns light up the space of that knowing. Colours and forms call out the brilliance of seeing. Sounds light up the space of hearing. Although this bodymind was not designed for it or created to do it, it is capable of Waking Up to the Knowing that is radiant as all knowings and knowns." Ven. Anzan Hoshin roshi metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Christine, and all > > Yum. Delicious reading with my morning coffee. > These recollections of the inherent foulness of the body are > helpful, no doubt about it. I do them every day, especially as I do > sit ups in the hopes of having a nice flat belly to show off at the > pool this summer. > > >The bodymind has no other purpose. It is not about > >anything else. > > This is a predictable protest, but what of the energy that is > needed to investigate realities? I think even while staying aware of > the eventual fate of the body, we can be grateful for good health and > energy during the short periods - mere moments in the big picture- > during which we have it because it helps us to be a vessel, if you > will, for the Buddha's teaching. So yes, a tube full of worms and > piss and snot, but also - in brief moments- highly evolved rupa that > walks upright and smiles and brings loving kindness out into the > world and keeps awareness of the moment as purely as possible. There > is something to be celebrated there. I love the roshi's writing - but > if I were his editor I'd encourage him to slip in something about > brief moments of being shining vessels. If we don't celebrate the > wholesome aspects of good health, it's too easy to get caught up in > unwholesome aspects. Now back to my quest for paradable abs ;) > > Metta, > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Dear Group, > > > > Isn't this excerpt from Ven. Anzan Hoshin roshi just a great > > description of the bodies we value so much? > > > > "this skin bag that holds the meat and jellies and sinews and > bones. 34051 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 7:12pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hi Bill, Nice to be reading you in these parts :-) I have read elsewhere and it has been alluded to in some replies already, that the purpose of sila is the calming of the mind, as preparation for insight. I like that very much. It makes ethics a functional business. It would be interesting to discover for oneself how much of behaviour that is aspired to is aspired to because it is taught/learnt (with or without the threat of pain and guilt, now or in the future), and how much behaviour is aspired to because there is an actual realisation that falling short of the aspired mark is causing suffering and/or preventing liberation from suffering. I think it is entirely possible to strive to live within the letter of the law, and still remain barren and fruitless soil for any liberative seed. You mention the paying of taxes. All the statutes, laws and regulations of a single modern, populous democracy would require many wall-to wall bookshelves to house. A person inclined to become a model citizen would end up in the nuthouse, firstly through making him/herself aware of all that is required, and secondly through trying to reconcile the multitude of contradictions contained within all those voluminous tomes. I personally think there is a problem with paying taxes in a modern, war-like democracy, when you know full well what the money is being used for. Herman -----Original Message----- From: Bill Saint-Onge [mailto:armyponcho_dot_dad@y...] Sent: Sunday, 20 June 2004 9:48 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.co} Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hi Nori, I read your post with interest. Too much 'scripturizing' and not enough meditation probably does produce a less productive practice, and the vice versa may be true as well: too much meditation and not enough scripture may produce a less effective practice. It seems that the one feeds the other while the other leads the other, and then they switch roles along an unfolding path of discovery and confirmation. Somewhere there is a balance point between 'self'-discovery and following the guidance of a teacher who has been there before. But since we are 'pet-peeving' here :) I'll add mine as well: where is the conversation on any of these sites regarding the practice of morality in our daily lives? I know that I can talk for hours about jhanna this and jhana that and sutta this and sutta that--but why no conversations about the practical implementation of sila? I find this very curious. The Buddha certainly seemed to believe that a discipline of ethics was critical to the path--it's given as the starting point for the path in many traditions, and a mainstay of the practice for even very advanced students. And yet, it's probably not an oversight that these conversations don't occur. There are practical difficulties to having them. For one, I'm not exactly sure how to have such a conversation. For another, there seems to be a sense of uncomfortability with having the conversations, an awkwardness for some reason. Could it be that, in the West at least, our view of Buddhism is so 'monasticized' that meditation and scripture has become buddhism? Could it be that we are for some reason reluctant to talk about morality because it's at that point where morality and ethics intersect our worldy life that the rubber of practice really hits the road of practical living: it's where all the dirty little failures are kept--how we cheated on our federal taxes; kept the two dollors that the check-out girl at the supermarket acidentally gave us as excess change; went to a township planing meeting and argued against a parcel of land being rezoned trailer park because we don't want 'those kind of people' on our tax base; went to a party and drank seven 'tequila slammers?' Maybe it's easier to be pure by being ethereal? I don't know. It's just a very curious disconnect. Respectfully, Bill 34052 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:11pm Subject: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re: Liberated in both ways(was, ¦^ÂСG?^???G...) Dear Jon > Hello, and welcome to the list from me. Thanks. > This suggests to me that in Bhikkhu Bodhi's view 'liberated in > both' ways > refers specifically to the role of the formless meditative attainments > (arupa-jhanas) at the moment of attaining arahantship for the person, > rather than to all persons who meet the twin criteria of (a) being an > arahant and (b) having mastery over the arupa jhanas, since these 2 > attributes can be present without the latter having any role in the > attainment of arahantship. > > Is this your understanding also? I think Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi here follows the interpretation of Pali commentaries where an arahant who has attained (any one of ) the formless attainemnt is called an ubhatobhagavimutta, "one liberated in both ways" while the arahants who do not have any formless attainment is called pa~n~naavimutta, "one liberated by wisdom". metta Tzung-kuen 34053 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:17pm Subject: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re: B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Dear Swee Boon > I don't think we can infer such a possibility from this sutta phrase. > There is not sufficient surrounding textual evidence for us to infer > such a possibility with a good level of confidence. Thanks a lot. Actually, in the Abhidhamma texts of Sarvastivada, the cretia for ubhatobhagavimutta is exactly, as you suggest, the attainment of cessation of perception and feeling. This is different from the opinion of Theravada commentaries. metta Tzungkuen 34054 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 8:42pm Subject: ¦^ÂСGRe: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Dear Swee Boon > Perhaps because the attainment of the "cessation of perception > & feeling" is very similar to parinibbana, that is why an arahant > who attains this vimokkha is called "released in both ways"? That > is, both here and now, and at death. Your interpretation is interesting, while the commentaries says "in both ways" refers to vipassana attainment and samatha attainment. > I think a beautiful thing about the nikayas is that we can cross > reference between suttas. And such cross referencing is very > important in helping us to understand brief statements and phrases. > I feel that if we cross reference to DN 15, it is very clear that > an arhant is released both ways if and only if the "cessation of > perception & feeling" is attained. Thanks, I understand your point. DN 15 is much probably use the cessation of perception of feeling as the cretia for ubhatobhagavimutta. But DN 15 does not equate 8 vimokkha with the cessation of perception and feeling which is only the top of them, and the sutta doesn't explain what if one doesn't attain the 8 vimokkhas. This, I think, makes room for different interpretations. In your opinion, what is the meaning when the sutta says 'one does not attian the 8 vimokkhas' ? Does he attain jhanas? Or we need to cross reference with more other suttas? metta Tzungkuen 34055 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 9:36pm Subject: [dsg] Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "jonoabb" wrote: > Hi, Rob Ep and Howard > > Howard, I agree with your comments here ;-)). Thanks to both of you for your comments, which present a reasonable possibility as to what the Buddha meant. I hadn't thought of the idea that these terms might have a more generic meaning, and I would be interested if any of the Pali scholars have a view about how the terms are translated. Best, Robert Ep. > Rob, I think the Pali word 'nibbidaa' is a term for kusala of a high degree. In other > contexts it refers for example to 'powerful insight knowledge' (Comy to Anguttara > Nikaya) or one of the 9 insight knowledges described as follows (CMA IX, 33 Guide): > "(5) Knowledge of disenchantment (nibbidaa~naa.na): When he sees all formations > as danger, he becomes disenchanted with them, and takes no delight in the field of > formations belonging to any realm of existence." > > Because of the limitations of conventional language, there are quite a number of > instances of unwholesome-sounding terms used for wholesome dhammas. As > Howard says, we need to consider just the literal meaning and not the > conventional connotations. > > For example, another in the series of 9 insight knowledges just mentioned is: > "(3) Knowledge of the fearful (bhaya~naa.na): As the meditator contemplates the > dissolution of formations in all three periods of time, he recognizes that all such > dissolving things in all realms of existence are necessarily fearful." > > Regards > Jon > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, Rob (and Jon) - > > > > In a message dated 6/19/04 2:33:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > epsteinrob@Y... writes: > > > > > Dear Jon, > > > Thanks for these excerpts and explanations. I am surprised to find > > > that "revulsion" rather than 'detachment" or "understanding" is > > > recommended towards the five aggregates. Why is revulsion necessary > > > do you think? I always thought it was an important aspect of the > > > Buddha's teaching that both attraction and aversion should be > > > released, and revulsion is the most powerful form of aversion. Do you > > > have an explanation for this? I find it perplexing, as I always > > > thought the Buddha taught that aversion was really a form of > > > attachment to the object thus rejected. > > > > > > Best, > > > Robert Ep > > > > > ============================== > > I suspect that the English words such as 'revulsion', 'disgust', > > 'disenchantment', and 'disillusionment' that translate Pali terms terms carry > > connotations that should be dropped, and merely accept the *literal* meaning of > the > > terms. What I mean is to adopt the following: > > > > revulsion = "turning away/back" (due to disinterest, rather than > > aversion) > > disgust = "lack of taste for or particular interest in" > > disenchantment = "being freed of enchantment by/for something" > > disillusionment = "being freed of illusion with regard to something" > > > > With metta, > > Howard 34056 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:20pm Subject: ¦^ÂСGRe: [dsg] oral tradition Dear Near Thanks a lot for your comments, which are always good to read. I like very much Pali and Theravadin tradition (including its Abhidhamma and commentarial texts), which I chose to learn and follow in my all life. (In Taiwan, it's quite easy to find the monasteries of Chinese and Tibetan Buddhism, while there are only less than 5 Theravada monasteries across the country) > N: I remember we had discussions about Maagadhii and Pali on our > Pali list. I understood that these were the same. But there are different > opinions. I know nothing about Maagadhii, I could only rely on the opinions of linguisticians. Surely, they may be worng too. > As to oral tradition, I wrote before about it to Andrew. When texts are > recited in a large group there is so much control, try it out > yourself. They were recited in very large groups, hundreds of people. Moreover, those > people were outstanding, conscientious, wise and virtuous, they were > arahats. To me that is a guarantee. I understand, accordint to Theravada and other early Buddhist schools, at the first two (or three) sanghayanas, the Buddhist Canon was recited by arahants. This is a good guarantee. When we survey the existing Buddhist Canons, especially the Nikayas/Agamas, of different schools, we indeed find most of them are the same or similar. Considering the distance of space and time, it's really marvelous. But there are still quite a few differencs, the Susimasutta I mentioned in the letter to Ven Bodhi Bhikkhu is a example. For example, the Pali and Mahasanghika versions of Susimasutta do nt mention whether or not the arahants with whom Susima talks attain the rupa jhanas, while the Saravastivada version clearly says those arahants didn't even attain the first jhana. The Pali and Saravastivada versions both say that this story happened in the Kalandakanivape Veluvane, while the Mahasanghika version says it happened in the Jetavana. The Pali version says Susima approached Ananda first, whom then lead Susima to see the Buddha. But, the Saravastivada version says Susima directly approach the Buddha and the later let other bhikkhus ordain Susima. The Mahasanghika version provides another story,where Susima approachs certain bhikkhus to get ordained, these bhikkhus themselve let susima undergo a 4-month probation period and after that they ordain Susima by themselves, without mentioning the Buddha or Ananda. There are more other differences in this story. Of course, some differents are trifles, but they are still different. When these existing suttas differe one another, it's difficult to say definitely which is the original version recited immediately after the death of the Buddha. These differences, I believe, of course does not derive from the first/second sanghayanas which are most probably held by arahants, but something must have happened in the processes of the tramisssion of the Canon by different early schools including Theravada tradition, otherwise there must be only one version of Buddhist Canon. > As I wrote to Larry, for my subco to the Visuddhimagga study I > have to compare quite a number of texts. I get so impressed about their > consistency.Many texts are literally the same. They contain an > enormous number of quotes from the Tipitaka. That is what I found out myself. Yes, the Pali Canon is quite consistent itself. I find difficulty only when compared with other versions of Buddhist Canon. I like your translation of Vism-mht very much, but I only got two posts about them one or two days ago. Where to get the old posts on Vism-mht ? > I prefer to consult the Pali commentaries from time to time in > that the > > doctrines they give are quite beautiful and practical. > N: I would always like concrete examples when people say that they are > wrong. With Suan's help I entangled one example from a well known > scholar. I never try to find the mistakes, if any, of commentaries. (But I foud Ven Bodhi Bhikkhu in his English translation of SN disagrees with the interpretations of commentaries on quite a few occasions) It's a good opportunity to ask for your opinon about the sukkhavipassaka. Since a lot of Western scholars suggest that there is no evidence in the Pali Canon/Nikayas for sukkhavipassaka, this implies that they seem to think the commentarial explanation of the arahants in Susimasutta as arahants having no jhana is not in line with the Nikayas. What is you suggestion about this ? with metta Tzung-kuen 34057 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 10:29pm Subject: [dsg] Re: What is right view ?/ Now Ethics in daily life Hi Bill, Welcome to dsg. --------------------- B: > Could it be that we are for some reason reluctant to talk about morality > ---------------------- I know what you mean, but, in another sense, dsg is constantly talking about morality. We ask; "What, ultimately, constitutes morality? What are its near and far enemies? How is it conditioned? How is it different from conventional, illusory, morality?" ---------------------- B: > because it's at that point where morality and ethics intersect our worldy life that the rubber of practice really hits the road of practical living: it's where all the dirty little failures are kept-- how we cheated on our federal taxes; kept the two dollors that the check-out girl at the supermarket acidentally gave us as excess change; went to a township planing meeting and argued against a parcel of land being rezoned trailer park because we don't want 'those kind of people' on our tax base; went to a party and drank seven 'tequila slammers?' > -------------- Questions like those arise when we discuss the difference between ultimate and illusory morality. There is no telling what is right or wrong in the conventional world. When we find a good home for a puppy, we separate it from its mother: when we remove an exotic Sulphur-crested cockatoo from a native wildlife habitat, we cause pain and suffering. Nothing is clear-cut, not even murder, which is clouded by self-defence, provocation, diminished responsibility and so on. In the unclouded, ultimate reality taught by the Buddha, there is not the slightest ambiguity: kusala is kusala and akusala is akusala: the former brings desirable results, and the latter, undesirable. Kusala and akusala are properties of namas, which experience an object, whereas desirable and undesirable are properties of sense objects, which are rupas and don't experience anything. Direct understanding of namas and rupas is the key to morality -- as it is to enlightenment. Ken O told us recently, "It is more important to know nama from rupa than it is to know kusala from akusala." Looking forward to more on this subject from you, Bill, we can't get enough of it. :-) Kind regards, Ken H --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bill Saint-Onge wrote: > Hi Nori, > > I read your post with interest. Too much 'scripturizing' and not enough meditation probably does produce a less productive practice, and the vice versa may be true as well: 34058 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:42pm Subject: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (6) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Jhaana and the Attainment of Stream-entry (4) The Nikaayas themselves nowhere explain exactly what is meant by the concentration gained by "having made release the object" (vossaggaaramma.na.m karitvaa), but they do elsewhere suggest that release (vossagga) is a term for Nibbaana.[14] The Commentary interprets this passage with the aid of the distinction between mundane (lokiya) and supramundane (lokuttara) concentration: the former consists in the form-sphere jhaanas (and the access to these jhaanas), the latter in the supramundane jhaanas concomitant with the supramundane path.[15] On the basis of this distinction, the Commentary explains "the concentration that makes release the object" as the supramundane concentration of the noble path arisen with Nibbaana as object.[16] Thus if we feel obliged to interpret the faculty and power of concentration in the light of the jhaana formula, we might go along with the Commentary in regarding it as the supramundane jhaana pertaining to the supramundane path and fruit. However, we need not agree with the Commentaries in taking the expression "having made release the object" so literally. We might instead interpret this phrase more loosely as characterizing a concentration aimed at release, that is, directed towards Nibbaana.[17] Then we can understand its referent as the concentration that functions as the basis for insight, both initially in the preparatory phase of practice and later in immediate conjunction with insight. This would allow us to ascribe to the noble disciple a degree of concentration strong enough to qualify as a faculty without compelling us to hold that he must possess jhaana. Perhaps the combined definition of the concentration faculty in SN 48:10 is intended to show that two courses are open to disciples. One is the route emphasizing strong concentration, along which one develops the jhaanas as the faculty of concentration; the other is the route emphasizing insight, along which one develops concentration only to the degree needed for insight to arise. This concentration, though falling short of jhaana, could still be described as "concentration that makes release its object." ****** Notes 14. Throughout the Magga-sa.myutta, the expression vossagga-pari.naami, "maturing in release," is used to describe the factors of the Noble Eightfold Path. This suggests that vossagga, as the goal of the path, is Nibbaana. 15. Below I will elaborate on the distinction between the form-sphere and supramundane jhaanas. 16. Spk III 234, commenting on SN 48:9. 17. Pa.tis-a III 586-87 seems to take this tack in commenting on the expression thus: "Having as object release: here release is Nibbaana, for Nibbaana is called release because it is the releasing of the conditioned, its relinquishment. Insight and the phenomena associated with it have Nibbaana as object, Nibbaana as support, because they are established on Nibbaana as their support in the sense of slanting towards it by way of inclination. Concentration is nondistraction distinguished into access and absorption (upacaarappanaabhedo avikkhepo), consisting in the one-pointedness of mind aroused by being established on Nibbaana, with that as cause by taking as object release of the phenomena produced therein. Concentration partaking of penetration (nibbedhabhaagiyo samaadhi), aroused subsequent to insight, is described." From this, it seems that "concentration having release as its object" can be understood as a concentration aroused through the practice of insight meditation, aiming at the attainment of Nibbaana. 34059 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jun 20, 2004 11:44pm Subject: RE: [dsg] oral tradition Hi Nina, Long time no type :-). I hope that you and yours are well. You wrote: N: I remember we had discussions about Maagadhii and Pali on our Pali list. I understood that these were the same. But there are different opinions. As to oral tradition, I wrote before about it to Andrew. When texts are recited in a large group there is so much control, try it out yourself. They were recited in very large groups, hundreds of people. Moreover, those people were outstanding, conscientious, wise and virtuous, they were arahats. To me that is a guarantee. ============================================ If I started to think that it was of vitally critical importance that I had the exact verbatim transcripts of everything the Buddha said, or that otherwise I would be wandering through samsara forever, I would become a nervous wreck :-). I am happy that you are satisfied that you have a very accurate record of what was said, but I feel no such assurance. But, happily, I do not think it is that important an issue. You talk about the recitation of the texts in groups of hundreds of people (500 comes up a lot of times in the texts - to me it is figurative language). Unless these same hundreds were all present each time the Buddha spoke his living words, what is it that was jointly remembered and recited? The suttas depict the Buddha in solitude, addressing individuals, small groups, medium groups and large groups, variously composed of lay people, monks, nuns, royalty, devas, you name it. When did he speak in the company of the same large groups of saints with impeccable memories? Your guess is as good as mine. It takes less mental gymnastics to accept that what was remembered and recited had already been cast into a mould of tradition, rather than accepting that we have the living words of the Master before us. The value of each teaching, to me, lies not in its historical authenticity. A teaching comes to life when, on following its advice, it gives rise to the fruit it said it would. Herman 34060 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Canada/Jim/Icaro Hi Larry (Icaro & Christine), --- LBIDD@w... wrote: > Icaro!!! > > If you see Jim (the Pali guy) up there, tell him we miss him. .... S: I'll also pass it on when I next have contact. At the moment, Jim is having his second cataract surgery in Orillia (the nearest town) outise Toronto. I'm not sure if you're aware, but he has serious sight and hearing difficulties. Before he left we had a brief exchange about Buddhaghosa and Vism editions which may be of interest to Christine who raised it, I think. (Jim stressed he was away from his books when he replied): S to Jim:> Btw, quick qu - Vism editions, i.e Sinhalese,Thai, > Burmese and esp with regards the postcript, part a) in > all editions and part b) verses only in sinhalese > edition re Buddhaghosa -- do you have any comments? It > came up recently on list. (i.e whether or not > Buddhaghosa was an arahant or not according to these). ..... Jim: >I remember this came up on D-L years ago by someone wanting to prove that Buddhaghosa was only a puthujjana. I don't dispute this as I believe there is a prediction in the Mahava.msa about him being the next Buddha, Metteyya. Maybe too early for him to be an ariyapuggala when he wrote the Vism.< ..... [S: Jimwould be referring to these lines (Cv,37.241): "...Then the bhikkhus read out al the three books together. Neither in composition and content, nor also as regards the sequence (of the subjects), in the teaching of the Theras, in the quotations, in words and sentences was there any kind of deviation in all three books. Then the community satisfied and exceedingly well pleased, cried again and again; 'without doubt this is Metteyya!' and handed over to him the books of the three Pitakas together with the commentary. Then dwelling in the Ganthakara-vihara which lies far from all unquiet intercourse, he rendered the whole of the Sinhala commentaries into the tongue of the Magadhas, the original speech of all. for beings of all tongues this (rendering) became a blessing and all the teachers of the Theravada accepted it as the original text....." A little earlier in the same text (37.228), we read: " '..The commentary in the Sihala tongue is faultless. The wise Mahinda who tested the tradition laid before the three Councils as it was preached by the Perfectly Enlightened one and taught by Sariputta and the others, wrote it in the Sihala tongue and it is spread among the Sihalas. Go thither (to Buddhaghosa), learn it and render it into the tongue of the Magadhas. It will bring blessing to the whole world.' Thus addressed, the *wise* (Buddhaghosa) sallied forth joyful in the faith and entered the Island just in the time of this King (Mahanama)." Personally, if we follow the scanty information available such as the postscript in Vism and the Mahavamsa, I think he clearly was an ariyan but not an arahant because: a) references in several sources to rebirrth in Tavatimsa realm b) references to his wisdom in several sources such as the one above. Also, a little earlier in this part of the Mahavamsa, we read (Cv 37,223): "As the Brahmana (Buddhaghosa) craved for the sayings he underwent the ceremony of world-renunciation and learnt the Tipitaka. He recognised: this path leads alone to the goal, and accepted it thereafter. As his speech was profound like that of the Buddha, he was called Buddhaghosa; for his speech (resounded) through the earth like (that of the) Buddha." {'speech in pali is 'ghosa'}] ..... S to Jim: > p.s We've also ordered the Buddhaghosuppatti. Do you > have any comments on its reliability? .... Jim: >A hard question for me to answer. I haven't finished going over the whole book and I'm still far from being familiar with Buddhaghosa's life story. From what I've read so far I have found it a credible story and there are parts of it that I particularly like. You may have trouble convincing others of the historicity of the facts. Probably best to read it like you would any story or anecdote in the commentaries.< .... S: [We now have this slim later commentary/life of Buddhaghosa found in Burma. The relevant passage reads (about Buddhaghosa's death) "When he knew that the time for his departure from this world was nigh, he took leave of his preceptor, approached the Bodhi-tree, recited two stanzas in praise of it, and, on departing this life, was born in a golden mansion in the Tusita heaven, to return to this world of men on the coming of Meteyya, the next Buddha. When he died, men and gods made a funeral pyre of sandal-wood for the cremation of his body. Raising aloft his remains on a golden couch,they set fire to the pile with due decorum. His relics were taken and buried in the vicinity of the Bodhi-tree and shrines erected over them." I can't give any comments on this particular text, but see no reason not to accept this passage as being reliable.] Metta, Sarah ===== 34061 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) Hi Icaro (& RobM), We never know where you might pop up - if it's too chilly in Toronto, try Hong Kong next - very hot and humid here (or Malaysia).....it might suit you better!!! --- icarofranca wrote: > Even an intellectual exercise like reading the Visuddhimagga, or > the Abhidhamma's books and their tiikas, the Nikayas, etc, can give > you a sound and strong mind stuff. Mental discipline to acquire > knowledge is always headlong to mindfullness: one becomes able to > gather spiritual honey even from the more unpromising flowers! > > There are also many practical aspects on these matters. Many > Bhikkhus suggest that the Abhidhamma is the true vipassana indeed: > it's a wink to the practitioner of meditation that watches carefully > his own breath even (and mainly) at readings!!! ... S: Good points! From what I follow, your comments above reminded me of this talk by Sitagu Sayadaw, which has been quoted before, but not for some time;-) 'Abhidhamma and Vipassana' which can be found on RobK's useful website: http://www.abhidhamma.org/sitagu%20sayadaw.htm "Since Vipassana meditation takes the Abhidhamma as its sole object of contemplation, Vipassana and Abhidhamma cannot be separated. And while it may not be said that one can practice Vipassana only after one has mastered the Abhidhamma, Vipassana meditation and the study of Abhidhamma remain one and the same thing. Because mind, mental factors and matter are forever bound up with this fathom-long body, the study and learning of this subject, and the concentrated observation of the nature of mind, mental factors and matter are tasks which cannot be distinguished. Since at the very least one would have to say that there can be no Vipassana without an understanding of mind and matter, surely then it is not possible to separate Abhidhamma and Vipassana. It is explained in the Abhidhamma that the root causes giving rise to the seven elements of mind and matter are ignorance (avijja), craving (tanha) and volitional action (kamma). It is further pointed out that the supporting conditions for these same seven elements are kamma, mind, climate (utu) and nutriment (ahara). Only by grasping these abhidhammic truths will one possess the knowledge which comprehends conditional relations (paccayapariggahanana), and achieve the purification of mind necessary for overcoming doubt. These excellent benefits are pointed out by paticcasamuppada and pathana. Therefore, since it is the case that Vipassana and Abhidhamma are not separate but are mutually dependent, it is rightly submitted that Vipassana yogis ought not let go of that wise method of learning about the human condition called the Abhidhamma. ( Note: - This is the talk , Sitagu Sayadaw gave on a special occasion of Abhidhamma, translated into English by the Department of Research and Compilation, International Buddhist Academy, Sagaing Hill, Myanmar )' ***** Metta, Sarah ===== 34062 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: question on observation Dear Yulia and Huajun, Firstly, Yulia, I'm delighted to see you on the screen again after a long break. I remember from before that you always raise excellent practical questions. Thank you also for reminding us again about your unusual background and the good advice you used to hear. I think as RobM, Phil and others have suggested on this and other threads, we don't need to mind about the others and their progress or lack of progress. The practice or path always comes back to our own mental states. The dhamma is inside, not outside just as you suggested. I iked your comment: 'this is study of yourself which leads us to see ourselves are not ourselves. And this is not really about achieving your own liberation.' Yes, the teachings are about anatta and understanding conditioned realities, regardless -- I'd add-- of whether we'd classify them as 'happy', 'unhappy' or any other kind of realities. Huajun, Welcome to DSG and I was glad to read your comments back to Yulia too. Can I encourage you to let us know where you live and anything else about your interest in the Buddha's teachings. You obviously have a lot of familiarity with them. I liked the following comment you made: --- huajun_tang wrote: > Strong mindfulness is the most important support for observation of > precepts. When one's mindfulness is strong, the observaton of > precepts becomes more natural than forced, one get less or no > internal mental confliction. ..... S: There is another thread on sila (I hope you'll add your comments) - I think that without any developement of mindfulness and wisdom, sila can never be really firm. ... >For example, one time I took a walk > just after meditation on mindfulness of breath. I passed by a sexy > yang lady and the figure of her body started to disturb my mind and > body, then I just shifted my attention to my breath and kept it on > my breath. In this way my mind remained in a peaceful and happy > state. ..... S: I think this is a coping strategy, but possibly one based on avoidance or concentration rather than on awareness?? .... >But at other times when I do not have such strong > mindfulness, even if I force myself to turn away from the objects > that arouse lust, I can not get rid of the images in the mind. In > such a case, there is more or less mental conflicts. .... S: In the end, as Phil has been writing so clearly, I think there has to be the development of understanding with detachment too. It doesn't mean one shouldn't turn away, but either way, there can be awareness of any of the conditioned phenomena at these times. ..... > When one has more and deeper practice, one may find that Abhiddhamma > is more helpful. But at the beginning, one should first find some > methods that can be effectively used in real practice. I personally > prefer the teaching of Mahasi Sayadaw. .... S: It seems to be a common idea that Abhidhamma is only for 'deeper practice' but I don't think we have to call it by any name. Just a little understanding of the greed or anger or seeing or what is seen at this moment is Abhidhamma. Very deep but very simple! Looking forward to hearing more from both of you. You may like to look at posts saved under 'Abhidhamma for beginners' in Useful Posts at this link: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts Metta, Sarah ====== 34063 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 2:07am Subject: Dustrags (was: Brahma viharas 4) Hi Phil, I said I'd add a little more on dustrags;-) --- Philip wrote: > > And isn't there a kind ofconceit in this thinking? I find myself > feeling proud for being such a humble, unassuming man at work, and > for being popular with the students because of this, because I think > Japanese people have more respect for humble, unassuming people. > Dustrags can be conceited too. "Look at the footprints on me!" .... S: You mean like Uriah Heep who was so proud of being humble if I recall? Yes, conceit can arise on account of anything and it may be true -- you may be more humble! But at these times there is no understanding of the 'dustrag' which is the opposite to the 'banner' of conceit -- even if it is one of (rightly) being more humble and unassuming. There have been quite a few posts on this topic (and more under 'conceit' in U.P). The following in particular are on the dustrag theme and one includes some good sutta references: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/4072 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11570 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13626 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/13674 No pressure intended, but if you still questioning the value of the dustrag metaphor, I'd be glad to discuss it further as it's very helpful for me. I'll sign off now with a long extract below from one I wrote before w/ quotes from Nina and K.Sujin: Metta, Sarah S: >We've discussed before the list of objects on account of which mana arises from the Vibhanga (17) and these include "...pride of gain; pride of being honoured; pride of being respected; pride of prominence; pride of having adherents; pride of wealth; pride of appearance; pride of intelligence; pride of being a knowledgeable authority;...". We also know that because of the attachment to self and finding oneself so important, we cling to the 8 worldly conditions and very seldom see the value of being a 'nobody' or a dust-rag as Sariputta did. On one of our trips to India, K.Sujin talked a lot about the value of reflecting in this very way. When I first heard it, again the banner would start waving and I was aware of how much discomfort there was at considering the value of being a door-mat that anyone could criticise or trample over. Gradually, I've come to appreciate these reminders more and more and to see what precious 'treasure' they are. The following are two passages that Nina wrote in letters about K.Sujin's example of the dustrag on that trip: ***** 1.http://www.dhammastudy.com/lv9.html "Khun Sujin had reminded us in India to become like a dustrag which serves for wiping the feet. A dustrag takes up filth and is undisturbed by it. One should become as humble as a dustrag. Sariputta, who could forgive anybody, no matter whether that person treated him in an unjust manner, compared himself with a dustrag. He had no conceit. When right understanding has been developed one will cling less to the self, there will be more humbleness. During the discussions Khun Sujin said again: I would like to be a dustrag. I follow the way to be one, it is my resolution. Our resolution means that we take action by developing understanding and metta. . It is beneficial to be reminded again of the dustrag, because humbleness seems to go against our nature. As understanding develops it must lead to letting go of namas and rupas. What we take for self are only impermanent namas and rupas. When their impermanence has been realized can they be as important as before? ' We read in the "Vinaya" (VI, Parivara, Ch XII) how the monk should behave when he approaches the Sangha when it is convened for the investigation of a legal question. We read: ...he should approach the Order with a humble mind, with a mind as though it were removing dust. He should be skilled about seats and skilled about sitting down. He should sit down on a suitable seat without encroaching on (the space intended for) monks who are Elders and without keeping newly ordained monks from a seat. He should not talk in a desultory fashion, nor about inferior (worldly) matters. Either he should speak Dhamma himself or should ask another to do so, or he should not disdain the ariyan silence... The commentary (the Samantapasadika) adds to "with a mind as though it were removing dust" : "like a towel for wiping the feet." ***** 2.Another quote from K.Sujin: http://www.dhammastudy.com/lv6.html "There is conceit if we have an idea that we should be "somebody with great wisdom". We should follow Sariputta's example who compared himself with a dustrag, a useless rag without any value. If we do not consider ourselves "somebody", but rather a "nobody", it will prevent us from pretending, even to ourselves, that we are more advanced than we in reality are. We also need the perfection of truthfulness (sacca) to keep us on the right track. We have to be sincere, truthful to reality. Do we want to avoid being aware of akusala? We have to be aware of it in order to know our true accumulations. If we are not aware of akusala we will take what is akusala for kusala. We need to develop the perfection of equanimity in order to learn to accept with kusala citta the vicissitudes of life. Praise and blame are only realities which arise because of their own conditions, in reality people are not the cause of praise or blame. When people do wrong to us we can develop metta if we see the value of metta. Instead of having aversion about people's bad points we will try to remember their good qualities. If they have none there can be compassion or there can be equanimity. There can be equanimity when we remember that the real cause of unpleasant experiences through the senses is not a person but our own kamma. We should carefully consider the different perfections and then we will be reminded to develop them in our daily life, they are needed in each situation. Khun Sujin said that while she prepares lectures for the radio she needs many perfections, such as metta, patience, energy and equanimity. When there is equanimity she does not feel hurt when people do not want to listen to her or when they criticize her." ***** When we listen to and consider the teachings, as we read in the Simile of the Snake, they should be 'grasped' in a way which leads to less mana and clinging to self importance rather than the reverse.< ========================================= 34064 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:32am Subject: Re: Canada/Jim/Icaro Hi Larry!!! > If you see Jim (the Pali guy) up there, tell him we miss him. He is in Orillia, taking his second cataract surgery. Mettaya, Ícaro 34065 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:04am Subject: Re: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re: Liberated in both ways(was, ¦^ÂСG?^???G...) Dear Tzung-kuen (and Swee Boon) I have just checked the Bhikkhu Bodhi translation of the Kitagiri Sutta that you and Swee Boon have been referring to (see passage from Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha copied below). From the reference to the 7 kinds or persons, it seems that in this context at least the term 'ubhatabhaagavimutta' /one liberated-in-both-ways refers specifically to the manner of attaining enlightenment. In terms of the task to be done, there is no difference between the person who is liberated-in-both-ways and the person who is 'liberated-by-wisdom': both have 'done [their] work with diligence' and are 'no more capable of being negligent'. In a footnote to the term 'liberated-in-both-ways' ('ubhatabhaagavimutta' ) (also copied below), Bhikkhu Bodhi quotes the commentary as indicating that it includes: - one who attains arahantship after emerging from one or another of the four immaterial attainments and - one who attains arahantship after emerging from the attainment of cessation. So in both cases it refers to the circumstances under which arahantship is actually attained. I am wondering, however, if the term would preclude, for example, an arahant who attained to one the specified attainments for the first time only *after* becoming an arahant. I mention this because your definition of 'an arahant who has attained (any one of ) the formless attainemnt is called an ubhatobhagavimutta' may need to be tightened up a little. Grateful for any observations you may have from your readings of the texts. Jon From Middle Length Discourses of the Buddha (trans Bhikkhu Bodhi) M 70, Kitagiri Sutta 14. "Bhikkhus, there are seven kinds of persons to be found existing in the world. What seven? They are: one liberated-in-both-ways, one liberated-by-wisdom, a body-witness, one attained-to-view, one liberated-by-faith, a Dhamma-follower, and a faith-follower. 15. "What kind of person is one liberated-in-both-ways? Here some person contacts with the body and abides in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, and his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. This kind of person is called one liberated-in-both-ways.[702] I do not say of such a bhikkhu that he still has work to do with diligence. Why is that? He has done his work with diligence; he is no more capable of being negligent. 16. "What kind of person is one liberated-by-wisdom? Here some person does not contact with the body and abide in those liberations that are peaceful and immaterial, transcending forms, but his taints are destroyed by his seeing with wisdom. I do not say of such a bhikkhu that he still has work to do with diligence. Why is that? He has done his work with diligence; he is no more capable of being negligent." [702] 'Ubhatobhaagavimutta'. MA: He is "liberated-in-both-ways" because he is liberated from the physical body by the immaterial attainments and from the mental body by the path (of arahantship). ... MA says that the 'ubhatabhaagavimutta' includes those who attain arahantship after emerging from one or another of the four immaterial attainments and the one who attains it after emerging from the attainment of cessation. --- Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > Dear Jon ... > I think Ven Bhikkhu Bodhi here follows the interpretation of Pali > commentaries where an arahant who has attained (any one of ) the > formless attainemnt is called an ubhatobhagavimutta, "one liberated in > both ways" while the arahants who do not have any formless attainment is > called pa~n~naavimutta, "one liberated by wisdom". > > metta > > Tzung-kuen 34066 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:10am Subject: Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? - Extremely Long and Contentious --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Rob Ep, > > Thanks for another Rob Epic post. > ------------------------------- > > This is a very long post, > apologies for being perhaps upsetting, > > ------------------- > > Try as I might, I can't find anything to take offence at. Towards > the end, your language does get a little over the top but you have > been driven to it! :-) > > --------------------------- Ha ha. Well thanks for the leeway, Ken. > KH: > > I have just read Sukin's reply < > and I want to repeat > something he said: "I believe that if you started to look at the > Teachings more from the perspective of the present moment, away from > any previous tendency to think in terms of situations and `things to > do', that you will appreciate more what Nina and others have been > saying." > > > > REp: > I think it's a mistake to assume that I don't have a "present- > moment perspective" just because I have the sad fate to support > something that is out of favor around here. > > -------------------------------- > > I agree. And the operative word in Sukin's advice was "more:" We > all need to look at the teachings `more' from the perspective of the > present moment and `less' from the perspective of situations and > things to do. > > -------------------------------- Well, who can argue with that?? But is my need for "more" more than yours and Sukin's? Do you think my view is further away from the perspective of the present moment than your own? I'm sure you'd agree that this is the implication, and perhaps you're right..... ? > REp: > but meditation too takes place in the moment! > > -------------------------------- > > Yes, real meditation (bhavana) takes place in the moment. But formal > meditation is a concept (a thing to do in a situation) - in the > reality taught by the Buddha, it doesn't take place at all. > > -------------------- Yes, and neither does sutta reading. It is merely a concept. What I see throughout your response, which is interesting and has may worthwhile points, is a two-edged sword which seems self-contradictory to me, and which avoids the issue of the equality of all activities. Somehow, when it comes to meditation, you say it is "formal meditation" as opposed to bhavana, and when it comes to sutta study it is just a wonderful benign activity that happens without any akusala intention, and in which the kusala moments can gradually arise by themselves. I strongly object to the idea that somehow sutta study has no prejudicial elements, it is free of the taints of formal meditation, which somehow precludes its true expression, true bhavana, from arising because it is "planning to do something for a result." I do not accept the idea that sutta study has no intention for a result, or that it is any more "real" or provides any more of an opportunity for satipatthana or vipassana or bhavana to arise than sitting meditation. The truth is that if you sit and observe the breath, moments of akusala striving for a result will arise, moments of concept "I am meditating" will arise, and moments of seeing breath, thought or surroundings as arising rupas and namas will also arise. I don't see a problem with that. In sutta study, moments of thinking "I am following the Buddha's path" will arise, moments of thinking "I want to learn about these suttas" will arise, and moments of understanding or insight may arise. So what is the difference? When you want to justify sutta study, you say that it is one of the three factors that Buddha said will lead to enlightenment, but at that time you ignore the fact that sutta study is a concept and that namas and rupas will still arise as they do during sutta study. When you want to disparage the engagement with bhavana, which is certainly "right practice" you call it "formal meditation" to dismiss it out of hand, and proclaim that it is a concept, not true meditation and therefore bhavana will not take place. I think you unfairly skew the argument towards that which you favor. When you talk about the three factors that lead to enlightenment you wisely leave out the last factor, which is "right practice." Right practice is "bhavana" which is the arising of satipatthana. You say that it is the result of the other three. I challenged you to show me where the Buddha said that "right practice," as you define it, the arising of satipatthana, which I assume you would consider "true bhavana," is the result of the first three factors, and so you can discount it as something to do, while recommending the doing of sutta study, wise associations, etc., which are just as much doings as the practice of bhavana. You cut that question out, I think, in your snipping of my extra-long post, rather than answer it. I would contend that the Buddha never said that, and in fact right practice is another of the factors leading to enlightenment which one undertakes through meditation, whether in daily life or by sitting, just like sutta study and association with wise friends, etc. In order to deny this, you have to say that Right Practice not only arises by itself, but is the result of the three factors you are in favor of. It just ain't fair. > . . . > REp > As I think Sarah recently said, or at least something to this > effect, if we did not believe that the guidance of the Buddha would > lead us to enlightenment, we would not engage with the Buddhist path > at all. And it is our faith and trust in the Buddha and the path he > lays out that leads us to engage with the Buddhist path and take the > perspective of the Buddhist path. > ------------------------- > > That should be understood from the `present moment perspective.' > Confidence, understanding and detachment are realities that can > arise, in the present moment, to experience an arisen reality. > > ------------------------ Sure, but we still engage in the study and practice the Buddha recommends because he recommended it, whether the "true" confidence and understanding arise in the moment or not. > REp > Now, this is me speaking: This is a goal > orientation. It is *not* just focussed on the present moment; it is > conceptual and faith-based and headed towards the future. > > ------------------------ > > Things to do and situations! That's fine if it's what you want, > but, as Sukin has said, it won't help you `appreciate more what Nina > and others [Sarah in this instance] have been saying.' > > ----------------------- You misunderstand me. I didn't say that's what I want. I was saying that that's what you and me and everyone are doing most of the time, and we shouldn't pretend that a meditator is falling into this trap while a sutta studier is not. It's silly to think that we are always focussed correctly on the present moment, since that would mean we were enlightened, and at the same time act as though our activities are more pure than the meditator's. You accept the arising of kusala and akusala moments when it comes to the activities you think are good, and you point them out and shake your head when it comes to the activities you think are bad. > REp > Of course we continually re-group and take our understanding > and point it towards the present moment. > --------------------- > > This is true, but from the PM perspective, there is no we who > regroup - there are only namas and rupas arising now and capable of > being experienced by sati and panna. (Conditions willing.) Yes, but this is always true. I am talking about what really happens, and you are picking out a techicality and not dealing with the point. The point is that we are all in the same boat, trying to achieve satipatthana, whether you think you are not formally practicing, or whether you think someone else is formally practicing. And unless you see equality in sutta study and meditation, which are both intentional activities, you will be seeing a false separation between types of activities while not acknowledging that you are doing so. If you want to talk about the arising of namas and rupas being the only reality, then you have to tell me how the arising namas and rupas are different in meditation than they are in sutta study. Because implicit in what you are saying is that the namas and rupas in sutta study are "better" than the ones in meditation. So why not admit that and deal with the distinction? How can one nama or rupa be better than another for the path, when they are all equally there to be discerned, or not discerned depending on the arising moment? > I have just snipped a section (it was a long post, after all) that > demonstrated your accurate grasp of the Abhidhamma. So there is no > reason why you shouldn't see the other side of the formal practice > debate. It's just a matter - for you as for all of us - of bringing > everything back to the present moment. > > ------------------------- > REp > Sure, someone can ruin it by misunderstanding the teachings > and using their sutta study to keep asserting more and more sense of > self, but you still think that on the whole this is a good activity > and it is what the Buddha said we should be doing, so it is fine. > But when it comes to meditation, <. . .> you call it "formal > practice" an disallow that it can lead to kusala accumulations. > ---------------------- > > The Dhamma is a teaching -- the Buddha teaches and we pay wise > attention. Is this not a concept? The practice of concentrating on a chosen object does > not enter the equation. Why not? If Buddha spoke about breathing and bhavana, why do you ignore his teaching instead of paying "wise attention?" I know, we're not jhana adepts so it doesn't apply to us. I think that's a cop-out! We should all be reading our suttas and also cultivating bhavana. Maybe we'll have vipassana or go into jhana or not, but we cannot ignore the path because we think it's too difficult! > --------------------- > <. . . .> > REp > but if one diligently studies the suttas with the hope of > enlightenment, this is just fine, and is not a "formal practice" > with the same deadly results. I don't get it. > ------------ > > Coming back to the present moment: if there is right understanding, > here and now, what are its causes? There are three causes: > conventionally speaking they are, `association with the wise, > hearing the Dhamma and wise consideration of the Dhamma.' No, there are four causes [although they are all just concepts]: association with the wise, hearing the Dhamma and wise consideration of the Dhamma, AND Right Practice. You leave it out because you don't want to admit that Bhavana is one of the causes of Right Understanding. I contend that if you do not include the practice of Bhavana, you cut off the legs of the teaching. yes, you then are left wityh the possibility of dry insight, which is fine as far as it goes, but is not the path most highly recommended by the Buddha. Why leave it out completely instead of at least saying "If you have the time and propensity to sit and cultivate moments of vipassana and jhana, you should do it, as the Buddha suggested." Instead those who have no time or perhaps desire for practicing Bhavana, suggest that it is not only not necessary, but is the result of what they *do* want to do, sutta study and discussion. And we should not approach it directly, because concept of self will arise. Should we be frightened of this concept, or take a long hard look at it when it arises? > But forget about conventionally speaking: don't feel obliged to do > any of those things or create any of those situations. Just > understand, here and now, the three causes of right understanding. Four, according to the Buddha. Please don't change the teaching. > ---------------- > <. . .> > REp: > I am coming to the conclusion that every wonderful kusala > activity has the potential to become a "formal practice" and express > wrong view. So I guess it has to do with what view we are holding, > not what activity we are doing. Do you disagree with this? > -------------------- > > I agree with it. Of the two, only the view is real: the activity > (the thing to do) is not ultimately real, and therefore, it is > neither kusala nor akusala. > > -------------------- > REp: > Or are you saying that com study is immune from the > development of such a view? > -------------------- > > Ultimately, Dhamma study is a kusala moment of hearing, considering > or learning. If we believe it is a thing to do in a situation, then > there is wrong view. What does ultimately mean? If I said ultimately, sitting is a moment of bhavana, you would say "ah you're focussed on the future result." But it's okay when you do it!! So you can ignore my point that it is often not kusala now! Just like the "formal" in formal meditation, which ultimately will be filled with vipassana and satipatthana, wonderful things. > ------------- > REp: > Perhaps if you do think that, it would make com study all the > more pernicious as wrong view will be sure to creep in when you > least expect it. > ------------- > > That sounds right to me. > > -------------- Well thanks for that. > KH: > > As you say, there is no point in relying on personal > affidavits: we need an interpretation of the Dhamma < > that is > consistent with the entire Tipitaka. > > > > REp > How about something that is actually said in the suttas for a > good start? Interpretations are perilous. I know there is a tendency > to distrust the obvious bald meaning of what the Buddha actually > says, but that is where I would go to find out what in fact he said! > > > -------------- > > Obviously, there is nothing wrong with the suttas, but each of us > interprets them differently. With the Abhidhamma, which was also > taught by the Buddha, there is less margin for error. One of the > most rewarding aspects of Dhamma study is to see how the suttas > relate back to the Abhidhamma. > > -------------- And how was the Abhidhamma also taught by the Buddha? Did he leave a record of his own words in the Abhidhamma as in the suttas? Please give me a quick review of this relationship. > REp: > So: what is the Abhidhamma interpretation of something the > Buddha said that leads directly to the conclusion that breathing > meditation is a "formal practice" that should be filed under "wrong > view." I await your report with great anticipation. > > 1/ Quote from Sutta > 2/ Com'y on same Sutta by Abhidhamma commentator. > 3/ Your interpretation and conclusion regarding meditation as akusala > "formal practice." > Three easy steps. > > > ------------- > > I've just read the whole Tipitaka (joke), and there is no mention of > formal practice. That's because it's an added on concept that the Buddha wasn't worried about. : ) > There is mention of `mindfulness of breathing' but only as a type of > jhana absorption. Uh....that's not true. Being mindful of breathing is what the Anapanasati sutta is about. How is that not so? Even then, `mindfulness of breathing' does not > seem to be something one practises as a means of developing > something. Why do you say it "does not seem" to be something one practices? On what basis do you say that? Since it's the crux of the issue, it should be certain, not just "seem" one way or the other. Rather, it is the occupation of an elite group of people > who, having already developed kusala consciousness to an incredibly > high degree, then concentrate that consciousness on an object - in > this case, the breath. Well that's certainly not in the sutta. That's a story you are telling about it. Based on what? > I'll leave it now before I cause any more exasperation. Too late!! : ) Remember; > the magic solution is to see the teachings more from the perspective > of the present moment. Yes, we should all try this some day. : ) Let's drop all our philosophies and just see directly. Then we will be enlightened. In that way, we appreciate more of what our > DSG friends are saying. Take, for example, this quote from > Nina's "Perseverance in the Dhamma:" > > "We may be discouraged that panna and sati seldom arise and that > we are thinking of people, things and events most of the time. But > thinking is a reality, and if we do not realize it as such we take > it for self." > > Pure gold! Yes, it is a wonderful quote. Thank you for that. Yes, if we see that even thinking is a reality that can be seen in the moment, we can do that and have a moment of insight, a moment of bhavana, and then we are truly meditating!! It can even happen while one is actually meditating! I'll see you there!!! : ) Thanks much for your thoughts! Best, Robert Ep. 34067 From: nidive Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:25am Subject: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re: B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Hi Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen, > Actually, in the Abhidhamma texts of Sarvastivada, the cretia for > ubhatobhagavimutta is exactly, as you suggest, the attainment of > cessation of perception and feeling. That's interesting. I didn't know about that. I know very little about the Sarvastivada. It seems that you have read those texts pretty well to know this. I understand some say the Sarvastivada actually originates from Venerable Sariputta himself. Regards, Swee Boon 34068 From: nidive Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 7:59am Subject: ¦^ÂСGRe: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Hi Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen, > > Perhaps because the attainment of the "cessation of perception > > & feeling" is very similar to parinibbana, that is why an arahant > > who attains this vimokkha is called "released in both ways"? That > > is, both here and now, and at death. > > Your interpretation is interesting, while the commentaries says > "in both ways" refers to vipassana attainment and samatha > attainment. It's definitely interesting, but does it make sense to you? > In your opinion, what is the meaning when the sutta says 'one does > not attian the 8 vimokkhas'? In my opinion, the phrase "one does not attain the 8 vimokkhas" means that "one does not attain all the 8 vimokkhas". I think the presence of the word "8" implies "all". Otherwise, we can simply say "one does not attain the vimokkhas". > Does he attain jhanas? Or we need to cross reference with more > other suttas? Previously, I had the opinion that so-called "dry-insight" arahants are possible. Now, I don't think so especially in light of MN 64. I go with Bhikkhu Bodhi in that jhanas are not needed for stream-entry and once-returning, but needed for non-returning and arahantship. There are two reasons: (1) Jhana pleasure provides the sole means of escape from sensual pleasure. Without jhana pleasure, one will always tend to fall back to sensual pleasure, because sensual pleasure is the only kind of pleasure that is known. (2) Jhana appears to be the sole degree of concentration that qualifies as fulfilling the perfection of the faculty of concentration of an anagami/arahant. Regards, Swee Boon 34076 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 8:55am Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) Hi Agrios, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Rob, let me make short review: > > > > > so sati is only possible when the self is dropped > > > > out of the picture? > > > > Any mental state which includes attachment to a view of self must be > > > unwholesome (ditthi arises in lobha-mula akusala cittas). > > > All worldlings (not yet Sotapanna) still have a latent view of self > > > so that, when conditions are suitable, a view of self can arise. > > In other words, all mental states of common worldlings and not > Sotapannas are unwholesome. All at least - almost all. > Consequently sati can not arise as long as there is a personality belief. ===== Not quite. According to the Abhidhamma, there are 20 possible kamma-creating mental states in daily life (i.e. not in jhana meditation). They include: - 4 greed-rooted mental states which include attachment to a wrong view - 4 greed-rooted mental states which do not include attachment to a wrong view - 2 aversion-rooted mental states - 2 delusion-rooted mental states - 8 wholesome mental states In a worldling, the latent potential to have a wrong view is constantly present, even when wholesome mental states have arisen. This latent potential to wrong view can only rise up to actual attachment to wrong view in the first category (4 greed-rooted mental states which include attachment to a wrong view). Even then, not every one of these greed-rooted mental states will have attachment to self view, they may also have attachment to wrong view about kamma (very serious - enough to cause one to end up in hell!), a wrong view about the reality of concepts or a wrong view about the benefit of rites and rituals. All of these wrong views fall under the mental factor of ditthi. In summary, for a worlding not in a jhana state, of the 20 possible kamma-creating mental states, only four have the potential of having wrong view and self view (sakkaya-ditthi) is only one of the manifestations of wrong view. Sati arises in every wholesome mental state. Since attachment to self view (a form of attachment to wrong-view) only arises in some of the unwholesome mental states, one will never find sati and attachment to self view in the same mental state. However, latent attachment to self-view (a form of latent attachment to wrong view) will continue to exist, even during wholesome mental states until one becomes a Sotapanna. ===== > > > >At the moment > > > of "pure giving", there is sati because, at that moment, the object > > > has been seen as it truly is without any distortion from latent > > > lobha, latent dosa or latent moha. > > Now, you say there is sati in the moment of "pure giving". > I decided to ask what this pure giving is, since it clearly have to > remove personality belief from the picture (no moha) and this would > open opportunity for panna to arise for small tiny citta moment. > Your answer is: > > > Each mental state exists for a brief instant and performs a specific > > function. When I wrote "pure giving", I wanted to emphasize that I > > was referring to the split second when giving was happening, not the > > other mental states that might arise close to that event. In reality, > > mental states arise and fall so quickly that people sometimes > > mistakenly merge discrete events such as "thinking about how much the > > gift cost" and "pure giving" into one. > > Now I understand your latest remarks to the way Buddhism is practiced > as a mental exercise and not the way of life. It moved me deeply when > I read this remark and now I understand why. > > Returning to sati. > Sati is not to be achieved. It will arise when conditions are present. ===== Well said! ===== > I will replace all this chaos and confusion and that will be it. ===== Oops, there is no "I" in control to do any replacing. ===== > The stream will be reached, but no one will reach it. ===== Okay, you are back on track again :-) ===== > > When there is a split second of wholesome deed, they are most precious > steps on our way to enlightment. > But... there is still self illusion Rob. How there can be any citta > without it? ===== Latent attachment to self view exists until one is a sotapanna. Cittas arise because conditions support their arising. This rule holds for worldlings, for Sotapanna, even for Arahants and Buddhas. There are a bunch of things that cause a citta to arise (such as the falling away of the previous citta, the presence of a physical base in the sensous realms, etc.), but attachment to self-view is not a general requirement. Since attachment to wrong views is one of the latent dispositions (anusaya), latent attachment to wrong views can act as one of the conditions (through natural decisive support condition) for the arising of one of the 4 greed-rooted mental states which include attachment to a wrong view. In other words, latent potential for attachment to wrong view can act as one of the conditions for the arising of a mental state where wrong view is no longer latent but actual. However, attachment to wrong view is not special in this regard; the same holds true for all the latent dispositions. For example, a latent disposition of aversion can cause an object to be perceived as undesirable and this perception of being undesirable then becomes a condition for the arising of actual (no longer latent) aversion. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophesy; this is why an optimist is happy :-) ===== > > And my last question was: > > > Your last question, "Isn't object (the one to be seen by sati) just a > > creation of self? Are there objects outside of thinking?" is > > extremely interesting. > > [...] > > Citta is the process of being aware of an object (an activity). Citta > > is also that which is aware of an object (an agent). Finally, citta > > is the means by which the accompanying mental factors are aware of an > > object (an instrument). > > > The object of a mental state and the mental state itself ( led by > > citta) are different. There is a co-dependence, just as three sticks > > in a tripod all depend on each other for support, but the object is > > not created by the self. > > I am confused. > I know that citta is aware of an object. > I don't know what the objects are. ===== There are six types of objects (arammana): visible object, sound, odour, taste, body-impression and mind-object. It is important to note that objects are defined according to the sense door at which they appear. Consider the cup of tea that I am enjoying at this moment. - There is a visible object (what I see) - There is a sound object that I have named as "air-con background sound" - There is an odour object (it is herbal tea) - There is a taste object (only when I drink) - There is a body-impression object consisting of temperature, hardness and pressure - There is a mind-object (concept of a cup of tea) These objects do not arise simultaneously because only one of the six sense-doors is active at one time. When the eye-door mental process is active, the visible object exists. At that moment, this is the only object that exists. Because objects are defined in terms of the sense door at which they arise, they do not exist when the sense door is not active. There has been debate on DSG as to whether rupa exists independent of the senses, with Howard taking the phenomenological view that they do not exist. This is the old, "If a tree falls in a forest but there is none to hear it, does the sound exist?" question. Agrios, I hope that my answer has not confused you. Metta, Rob M :-) 34077 From: nidive Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:09am Subject: Re: Purpose of our Lives Hi Christine, > Everything that it is about happens between the mouth and > the anus, dropping stuff in one end and dropping it out the other. > Why does it do this? So that it can do it again. > Why? So that this way of putting stuff in one end and out the > other can go on. And on. And on. Is there a point to all of this? > Yes. Putting stuff in one end and dropping it out the other. > What is the purpose of all of this? To put stuff in one end and > out the other. > Now, you might think that this is just some horrible story > that I am telling you to scare you. Or that I am just joking. I am > not joking. Yes, this is a story because I am telling it in a > particular way to make certain essential points clear that should be > obvious to everyone but tend not to be. But what I am describing in > this story is true. You might not want to hear this story. This > might be unpleasant to face. You might want to hear instead about > Allah or Brahma or the Omega Point or human beings being evolved by > the universe so that it can know itself. However, if you do that, > you are not only lying to yourself and others but are propagating > the kind of delusions that have encouraged us to go forth and > multiply and claim mastery over the birds in the air and the beasts > in the field. > The bodymind has no other purpose. It is not about > anything else. The universe has no purpose. It is not about anything > else. Stars forming from the gathering of gases and eating > themselves from the inside out over billions of years, dropping heat > and light out their other end into blank space. Insects that live > only a few hours. A human lifespan. In and out of the tubes." Thank you for this excerpt. Putting stuff in one end and dropping it out the other. The Buddha said that the bones of one single person transmigrating for one aeon would be a cairn, a pile, a heap as great as Mount Vepulla. It can be reckoned that the faeces of one single person transmigrating for one aeon would be a cairn, a pile, a heap a hundred times, a thousand times as great as Mount Vepulla. Enough to become disenchanted with all fabricated things, enough to become dispassionate, enough to be released. --------------------------------------------------------------------- http://abhidhamma.org/abhid10.html We read in the 'Kindred Sayings' (II, Nidana-vagga, Ch. XV, par. 10, A person) that the Buddha, when he was in Rajagaha on Vulture's Peak, said to the monks: Incalculable is the beginning, monks, of this faring on. The earliest point is not revealed of the running on, faring on of beings, cloaked in ignorance, tied by craving... The bones of one single person, monks, running on, faring on for an aeon would be a cairn, a pile, a heap as great as Mount Vepulla, were there a collector of those bones and the collection were not destroyed. How is this? Incalculable is the beginning, monks, of this faring on. The earliest point is not revealed of the running on, faring on of beings, cloaked in ignorance, tied by craving... Thus spoke the Exalted One. After the Wellfarer had said this, he spoke further: The pile of bones of (all the bodies of) one man Who has alone one aeon lived, Were heaped a mountain high - - so said the mighty seer - - Yes, reckoned high as Vipula To north of Vulture's Peak, crag-fort of Magadha. When he with perfect insight sees The Ariyan Truths: - - what dukkha is and how it comes. And how it may be overpassed, The Ariyan Eightfold Path, the way all ill to abate - - Seven times at most reborn, a man Yet running on, through breaking every fetter down, Endmaker does become of dukkha. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Regards, Swee Boon 34078 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:24am Subject: Vis. 83, Tiika note 36 Visuddhimagga, XIV, 83. Tiika Note 36. (this note given by the translator of the Vis. is a translation of a part of the beginning of Tiika 83). Tiika text: ' "Sense sphere" (kaamaavacara): here there are the two kinds of sense desire (kaama), sense desire as basis (vatthu-kaama) and sense desire as defilement (kilesa-kaama). Of these, sense desire as [objective] basis particularized as the five cords of sense desire (pa~nca-kaama-gu.na = dimensions of sensual desires), is desired (kaamiyati). Sense desire as defilement, which is craving, desires (kaameti). N: vatthu-kaama is the basis of sense desire. They are the sense objects that are desired by the defilement of sense desire, kilesa kaama. This is called tanhaa, clinging. The Expositor (I, p. 82) explains that the basis of sense desire is the round of the triple plane of existence. Because of clinging one wants to be reborn. The triple plane of existence are the sensuous planes, the fine material planes and the immaterial planes. Text: The sense sphere (kaamavacara) is where these two operate (avacaranti) together. But what is that? It is the elevenfold sense-desire becoming, i.e. hell, asura demons, ghosts, animals, human beings, and six sensual-sphere heavens. N: We have to distinguish planes (bhuumi) of citta and planes of existence. As to plane (bhuumi) of citta there are four planes: cittas of the sense sphere, kaamaavacara cittas, ruupaavacara cittas (ruupa-jhånacittas), aruupaavacara cittas (aruupajhaanacittas) and lokuttara cittas, supramundane cittas experiencing nibbaana. Thus, there are four planes of cittas classified according to the object citta experiences. As to plane of existence, this is the locality where one is reborn. There are eleven sensuous planes. Sensuousness frequents these sensuous planes, in these planes the basis of sense desire and sense desire prevail. We read in the Expositor : Cittas of the sensesphere also arise in ruupa-brahma planes and in aruupa brahma planes; cittas rooted in lobha, for example, arise in ruupa-brahma planes and in aruupa brahma planes. Seeing and hearing also arise in ruupa-brahma planes, but smelling, tasting and body-consciousness do not arise there. Those born in the ruupa-brahma planes have less conditions for sense impressions. However, cittas of the sensesphere arise in abundance in the sensuous planes of existence. We read in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Topics of Abhidhamma, p. 10): < Herein that which desires (kameti) is desire (kaama) or sensual craving. [Consciousness] where that desire is active (avacarati) in finding its objects belongs to the sphere of sense-desire (kaamaavacara.m). Alternatively, kaama is that which is desired, [that is,] elevenfold sense-sphere existence; because it is mostly active there, it belongs to the sphere of sense-objects (kaamaavacara.m)- for what is meant is its most common activity, even though [consciousness] that occurs in form and formless existences can still belong to the sphere of sense-desire. Alternatively, kaama is simply sense-sphere existence and what is active there is sense-sphere activity (kaamaavacaro) >. Text: So too with the fine-material sphere and the immaterial sphere, taking 'fine-material' as craving for the fine-material too, and 'immaterial' as craving for the immaterial too. It crosses over (uttarati) from the world (loka), thus it is supramundane (lokuttara)' (Pm. 464). N: The Tiika explains here word derivations. Craving for rebirth in sensuous planes is called kaamata.nhaa. Craving for rebirth in fine-material existence is called ruupa-ta.nhaa, and craving for rebirth in immaterial existence is called aruupa-ta.nhaa. **** Nina. (P.s. I shall proceed with the rest of the Tiika, which is the greater part, but also contained in other Co.) 34079 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. on Vis. note 35, health. Hi Larry, op 21-06-2004 02:03 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Should generosity be performed with an eye toward the mental health of > the other? For example, if another wants money, needs money, must have > money for the false idea of a body, should we give money and thus feed > the desire for money and the false ideas of money and body? N: Generosity is giving useful things to others. When others misuse them or are attached that does not interfere with our kusala citta. But giving is not easy, we have to consider whether it is proper to give at this or that occasion. When a beggar pretends to be a monk it is not good to give him money. It is not right either to give money to bhikkhus, they are in transgression when they take money. When considering the citta with generosity it is a pure citta that sees the benefit of kusala. The Bodhisatta gave even when unasked. He also gave to people who annoyed him. Why? Because it is a way to have less defilements. Thus, we have to consider the citta. A false idea of body: it is because of conditions that we are born in a sensuous plane of existence. We have bodies and these should be taken care of. We cannot escape material needs. That is why metta is the foundation of the world. Without metta we could not live in this world, we have to help each other. Nina. 34080 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Make an island unto yourself Hello Philip, op 21-06-2004 02:10 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > "Make an island unto yourself! Strive hard and become wise! Rid of > impurities and cleansed of stain, you shall not come again to brith > and decay." N: These words are also used elsewhere referring to the four Applications of Mindfulness (see Parinibbana sutta). Christine just gave it. We have to develop those ourselves, nobody else can do that for us. In that way we are our own refuge. Island in the sense of refuge. There is no saviour. Nina 34081 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:24am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 1 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 1 Everything is Dhamma. Acharn Sujin reminded us time and again that everything is dhamma. Gradually these words have become more meaningful to us. We have many moments of ignorance and forgetfulness of dhammas, but this should not discourage us. We shall come to understand that also such moments are conditioned. Acharn Sujin explained that we may notice that we have attachment, lobha, but that this is different from the actual moment of being aware of the characteristic that is attached. She said: ³Even when we can tell that we have lobha, there is still the idea of my lobha... We cannot do anything because it has arisen already. We should understand that each reality that appears has arisen and that nobody created it.² So long as we are only thinking about realities we are drowning in the ocean of concepts. When one of our friends asked her what we can do, she answered: ³We should understand more deeply the word dhamma or element, dhåtu, as non-self. We should develop understanding based on hearing, studying and considering, so that there are conditions for the arising of right awareness. But awareness will not arise because of our intention to be aware.² So long as we do not clearly distinguish the characteristic of nåma from the characteristic of rúpa, we shall not know precisely what kusala is and what akusala. We can begin to be aware of different realities, but we may not know them yet as dhammas devoid of self. Acharn Sujin said: ²Whatever we say about lobha is only thinking. Realities arise and fall away very quickly. Instead of trying to pinpoint and ask ourselves whether this is kusala or akusala there must be the understanding of nåma and rúpa. One thinks that one knows what kusala is, but it is not known as dhamma, it is still Œme¹.² Listening and considering, again and again, these are the right conditions for the arising of awareness and direct understanding. We can consider Dhamma in the midst of our activities. Daily life is full of pungent reminders that brings us back to reality: to dhamma now. Some dhammas are pleasant and we cling to them, some are unwelcome, like sickness, death or the daily news we read, and on account of these we have distress or sadness. But we should not ignore any of these reminders. If we do, we are really negligent. **** Nina 34082 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Phil and Bill : Brahma viharas, no 2, Dear Philip and Bill, Bill wrote: > where is the conversation on any of these sites regarding the > practice of morality in our daily lives? I know that I can talk for > hours about jhana this and jhana that and sutta this and sutta that- > -but why no conversations about the practical implementation of > sila? Bill, I sympathize. I love to talk about daily practice, never enough. I discuss it a lot with my husband Lodewijk. We remind each other when we fail in the Brahma viharas, and that is most of the time. But this is no reason to begin again. We have to keep courage. Please raise any topic on the practice, it is so good. Sila is practice, it includes all kind of practice. So I talk now with Philip about it. op 08-06-2004 01:18 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > N: > We read in the ³Atthasålin?E² about the four brahmavihåras > ((Book I, Part V, >> Ch XIII, Divine States, 193) : >> ³...love (mett?E has the characteristic of being a procedure of > modes of >> beneficence; the function or property of bringing good; the > manifestation or >> effect of taking hatred away; the proximate cause of seeing the > lovableness >> of beings. Its consummation (success) is the quieting of ill-will; > its >> failure is the production of lust. > > Ph: Re the "proximate cause" - this is something I've wanted to > ask about. It is the factor that most directly conditions the > following factor? N: in Pali: pada.t.thaana: immediate occasion, also translated as footing. Like a foundation. Ph: There is metta, and then (almost) immediately > afterwards there is wisdom that sees the lovableness? N: Not afterwards. It can be shortly before or at the same time. And not always wisdom. The kusala citta sees that he is a friend, should be treated as a friend. Ph: "Proximate" > meaning very close in the chain of cittas? And what is the term for > more removed factors. "Aproximate?" "Distant?" N: See above. One's accumulations and having heard about metta we can see as other favorable factors, and these are more past. Ph: "Lovableness" is a word I find myself using a lot these days. > I found this sutta reminded me of the > friendly feeling I have for people, including myself. N: When having metta for oneself: this seems attachment. Metta is for other people. The Vis says: begin with oneself but then explains: see it thus: treat others as you would like to be treated yourself. > > N:> Htoo writes: friendship >> from those whom we have helped by any means and in any way. As soon > as >> that kind of attachment arises, metta has already gone. Metta and > attachment >> do not stay together.> > > Ph: But metta can arise in a situation where attachment has arisen, > right? I mean, when we see through to that attachment, a fairly > basic form of right understanding can replace it with metta. N: Your example of hurling a dish moments later illustrates that cittas change very fast. It is good to know that we are not kind all the time. But the Brahma viharas can also remind us of kusala now and then. Inspite of our failures. > N: >> In her lecture A. Sujin stresses that the cetasika equanimity, >> tatramajjhattata, which arises with each kusala citta, is very > necessary for >> all four Brahma-viharas. It prevents us from going to extremes, > namely, >> attachment and aversion. > > Ph: I am always thinking about equanimity, upekkha. It seems to me > that it is the starting point of true practice of Brahma-viharas, > based in whatever degree of understanding of the three > characteristics of annata, annica and dukkha that we have. And it > surprises me that it is always listed fourth in the Brahma-viharas. N: Very good. I just think how necessary it is, but I do not think immediately about the three characteristics. I know that this is a long way to realize and that nama and rupa have to know first as having different characteristics. But so much in life cannot be changed, that is true. So the thought of impermanence helps also. It has to happen like it happens, such as sickness. I have first aversion and worry and then I am reminded of equanimity. Ph: Perhaps it is listed last because in jhanas it is achieved at a > higher/rarer jhana. However, it seems to me that it is where we > should start. N: I think because it is more subtle. Ph: I remember very soon after I came to DSG I was talking about my > temper outbursts when I was cycling, and I think I said that I sensed > upekkha as a kind of protection, .... Sarah questioned this, and said > something about right understanding being the key. . N: Right understanding of the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala helps. Moreover, realizing one's different cittas, even on the intellectual level helps. Beginning to see that they are conditioned, no my kusala, my akusala. I think James had the same experience. He explained how difficult with his education. his parents, not to use harsh speech, but now he addresses people as friend Philip, friend Sarah, to remind himself that people should be treated as friends. I think this a lovely custom of him and he is really to be commended for it. (He cannot hear it, he is away). A good example that habits can be changed. Long ago he also said that he was developing equanimity. Only lokuttara maggacitta can eradicate, but before that there are ways to weaken akusala conduct. Kusala together with satipatthana helps most. Nina. 34083 From: Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 3:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Canada/Jim/Icaro Hi Sarah, Thanks for the info on Jim. I hope the operation went well. Larry 34084 From: Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Hi Nina, What does it mean when a resultant consciousness is kusala (profitable)? Does it mean only that the consciousness that caused it was kusala? Does seeing consciousness see accurately regardless of whether it is kusala or akusala? How does one tell the two apart? Is kusala and akusala only meaningful in javana? Larry 34085 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:09pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? - Extremely Long and Contentious Dear Robert Epstein, You have written a wonderful, wise, incisive post. It cuts to the chase. Now don't get me wrong, I'm not saying you're wonderful, wise or incisive. So leave off any conceit, all right :-) Your words have shown very clearly the blinkered outlook that lies behind the promotion of certain formal activities over other activities. Clearly, any activity arising from intention to do so, carries with it the possibility of a large, albeit invisible faith in a self doing it. With the arising of awareness that an activity is possibly being shadowed by a self-belief, the next ego trick is avoidance of that activity, as Sarah pointed out just a while ago. It is unfortunate that the study of a present moment only happens in a present moment. And rarely, for moi. Next best thing, I suppose, is wise reflection on the past. And as you say there are a broad range of activities that usefully lend themselves to this end. That people have their preferences is fine, as long as they understand that they are just that, preferences. Good to be writing with you Herman 34086 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:20pm Subject: Re: [dsg] oral tradition Hi Nina and Herman Nice to see Herman back again posing more difficult and unfashionable questions! :-) You keep me on the edge of my seat, Herman, but in this instance I have some questions I would like to hear your thoughts on, if you have the time and inclination. See below. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: You talk about the recitation of the texts in groups of hundreds of > people (500 comes up a lot of times in the texts - to me it is > figurative language). Unless these same hundreds were all present each > time the Buddha spoke his living words, what is it that was jointly > remembered and recited? > > The suttas depict the Buddha in solitude, addressing individuals, small > groups, medium groups and large groups, variously composed of lay > people, monks, nuns, royalty, devas, you name it. When did he speak in > the company of the same large groups of saints with impeccable memories? > Your guess is as good as mine. It takes less mental gymnastics to accept > that what was remembered and recited had already been cast into a mould > of tradition, rather than accepting that we have the living words of the > Master before us. First of all, when I studied anthropology, I loved to read about the first anthropologists who went to study the Pygmies in Africa. The Pygmies, of course, have an entirely oral tradition and they had never seen writing in use. They formed the view that the anthropologists were stupid people with feeble memories. "What's wrong? Won't you remember all this?" they would ask. Having been brought up in a non-oral culture, it is very very hard for us to understand and accept the vitality of oral traditions. I think you are seriously underestimating the Pali lineage. You say that the Buddha spoke to individuals or small groups etc and how could this have been transmitted. But he was one of the most famous teachers in all India at the time and there was no shortage of people "hanging off his every word". You will also read in the suttas about people reciting to other people in detail what had just been said. I really don't share your concern in this regard. Now to some questions. As Buddhists, we believe in kamma, action and result. I take it you do not dispute that there are people alive today who have "photographic }emories"? Do you believe that past kamma plays any part at all in these people being born with this remarkable ability? Do you believe in the Buddhist cosmology etc which tells us that a teaching Buddha appears very rarely and it is a great fortune to be alive in the place where one is teaching? Does the past action of the people who were around the Buddha have any significance regarding how they came to be there? Or were they no different from the people we see brawling in the streets of Portugal at the present soccer tournament? Herman, you seem to me to be underestimating your fellow human beings and, in a subtle way, clinging to the wrong view of 'no consequences from actions' and that there is no difference from the time of a teaching Buddha to a time when the Teachings are disappearing. Am I being unfair? What role do you see for "saddha" (confidence, faith)? Is it a strength or a weakness, in your view? With best wishes Andrew 34087 From: Philip Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 4:46pm Subject: Virtues of the Buddha? Hello all I find these days that for various reasons I am wanting to reflect on the virtues or qualities of the Buddha, but I don't know exactly what they are so I find myself thinking about the Brahma- Viharas. What are the traditional lists, if you will, of the virtues of the Buddha that are used in such recollections? Thanks in advance. And thanks in passing to Sarah and Nina for messages that I won't be able to respond to until tomorrow. And thanks to Christine for the fab Dhammapada links! :) Metta, Phil 34088 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 5:44pm Subject: Re: Virtues of the Buddha? Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > I find these days that for various reasons I am wanting to > reflect on the virtues or qualities of the Buddha, but I don't know > exactly what they are so I find myself thinking about the Brahma- > Viharas. > > What are the traditional lists, if you will, of the virtues of the > Buddha that are used in such recollections? The list is called Nava Guna Gatha (Nine Great Virtues of the Buddha). There is a Pali devotional chant that recites them as follows: 1. By name He is an Arahant as He is worthy Even in secret He does no evil He attained the fruit of Arahantship To Thee, the Worthy One, my homage be. 2. By wisdom He is Sammasambuddha By teaching He is Sammasambuddha A fully Enlightened one is He in the world To Thee, the fully Enlightened One, my homage be. 3. He is endowed with wisdom and knowledge His wisdom is made known The past, future and present He knows To Thee who is endowed with wisdom and knowledge, my homage be 4. He is Sugata being self-disciplined Being good He is Sugata In the sense of going to the good state of Nibbana To Thee, the Sugata, my homage be. 5. By name He is Lokavidu He knows the past and future Things, beings and space He knows To Thee, the Knower of worlds, my homage be. 6. By wisdom and conduct unrivalled is He Who is the Unrivalled of the world In this world He is revered as an Incomparable One That Incomparable One, I salute. 7. O Charioteer, the King Charioteer A charioteer, a clever trainer is He of Deva Who is a clever charioteer of the world And is a respectful charioteer in this world, That great trainer, I salute. 8. To Devas, Yakkhas and men in this world He gives the highest fruits Among those taming the untamed To Thee, O Remarkable One, my homage be. 9. The Bhagava is repleted with fortune He has destroyed all passions He has crossed the ocean of Samsara To that Blessed One, my homage be. If you want to hear the chant as an MP3 file and/or download a book of Pali devotional chants, these can be found at: http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-chant.htm Metta, Rob M :-) 34089 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:04pm Subject: Re: ???Re: [dsg] oral tradition Dear Tzung Kuen, op 21-06-2004 07:20 schreef Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen op s4060239@s...: > But there are still quite a few differencs, the Susimasutta I mentioned in the > letter to Ven Bodhi Bhikkhu is a example. For example, > the Pali and Mahasanghika versions of Susimasutta do nt mention whether or not > the arahants with whom Susima talks attain the rupa jhanas, while the > Saravastivada version clearly says those arahants didn't even attain the first > jhana. N: The Saravastivada version is not Theravada. But I find it very complicated to go into these differerences with other schools which are not Theravada. Before I went into the Susima sutta and we had lots of debates, but now I get too busy with my texts and just want to leave it. Besides my Tiika I also have Thai/Pali texts on the latent tendencies to do. B.B. is well versed in the suttas and it is amazing he finds so many that state that for sotapannas and sakadagamis jhana is not necessary. I do not like to debate now. As I said to Sarah, I find the Puggala Pa~n~natti of the Abhidhamma quite clear on sukkha vipassaka. Also the Commentaries, it is often mentioned. And in the Visuddhimagga. T.Kuen: I like your translation of Vism-mht very much, but I only got two posts about > them one or two days ago. Where to get the old posts on Vism-mht ? N: They are all in the archives, and maybe Sarah or Larry can help you. Larry is leading the whole study. Up til now it was all about rupakkhandha. Now we are with vi~n~naa.nakkhandha. Nina. > > > with metta > > Tzung-kuen > > 34090 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 21, 2004 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Dear Sarah, This is very interesting. How old is this Co, how did you get it. Is it in Burmese and then translated into English? I paid respect at that place and will again in Oct. Nina. op 21-06-2004 09:55 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > S: [We now have this slim later commentary/life of Buddhaghosa found in > Burma. The relevant passage reads (about Buddhaghosa's death) > > "When he knew that the time for his departure from this world was nigh, he > took leave of his preceptor, approached the Bodhi-tree, recited two > stanzas in praise of it, and, on departing this life, was born in a golden > mansion in the Tusita heaven, to return to this world of men on the coming > of Meteyya, the next Buddha. When he died, men and gods made a funeral > pyre of sandal-wood for the cremation of his body. Raising aloft his > remains on a golden couch,they set fire to the pile with due decorum. His > relics were taken and buried in the vicinity of the Bodhi-tree and shrines > erected over them 34091 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 1:28am Subject: Re: ¦^ÂСGRe: [dsg] B.Bodhi's comments on the Susima Sutta, SN 12:70 (10) Dear Tzungkuen and Swee Boon Excuse me for butting in here, but I have found something directly on the point of your discussion below that you may like to know about. --- Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > Dear Swee Boon ... > > I think a beautiful thing about the nikayas is that we can cross > > reference between suttas. And such cross referencing is very > > important in helping us to understand brief statements and phrases. > > I feel that if we cross reference to DN 15, it is very clear that > > an arhant is released both ways if and only if the "cessation of > > perception & feeling" is attained. > > Thanks, I understand your point. DN 15 is much probably use the > cessation of perception of feeling as the cretia for ubhatobhagavimutta. > But DN 15 does not equate 8 vimokkha with the cessation of perception > and feeling which is only the top of them, and the sutta doesn't explain > what if one doesn't attain the 8 vimokkhas. This, I think, makes room > for different interpretations. There is a translation of DN 15 and its commentarial material by Bhikkhu Bodhi published as a separate booklet under the title "The Great Discourse on Causation". In the commentarial material to the section dealing with the eight emancipations there is the following which seems to be relevant to your discussion: <<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<< [Commentary] The "one liberated in both ways" is fivefold: those who attain arahatship after emerging from one or another of the immaterial attainments, and the one who, having been a non-returner, attains arahatship after emerging from cessation. [Sub-Commentary] Query: When it is said "after emerging from one or another of the immaterial attainments," does this refer to one who attains any one of them or to someone who attains all the immaterial states? Reply: You can understand it either way as you like. If it is stated by way of one who attains all the immaterial states, there is no contradiction. Query: But if it is taken to mean someone who attains only one of them, would that not be contradicted by the statement on the sutta: "When a bhikkhu attains these eight emancipations," etc.? Reply: Someone who attains even one immaterial-sphere jhaana is called a gainer of the eight emancipations, since it is possible to apply the name "eight emancipations" even to a single part of the set. For this designation "eight emancipations" can be attributed to a single part of the set just as well as to the whole. Thus it is said "after emerging from one or another of the immaterial attainments." >>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>> Jon PS Tzungkuen, regarding your question "what is the meaning when the sutta says 'one does not attain the 8 vimokkhas' ?", I could not find this passage in DN 15. I would be interested to know which text/translation you are referring to. 34092 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:08am Subject: Re: Virtues of the Buddha? Hello Phil,(RobM), and all, This explanation may be of assistance as well: http://www.beyondthenet.net/buddha/qualities.html metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > I find these days that for various reasons I am wanting to > > reflect on the virtues or qualities of the Buddha, but I don't know > > exactly what they are so I find myself thinking about the Brahma- > > Viharas. > > > > What are the traditional lists, if you will, of the virtues of the > > Buddha that are used in such recollections? > > The list is called Nava Guna Gatha (Nine Great Virtues of the > Buddha). There is a Pali devotional chant that recites them as > follows: > > 1. By name He is an Arahant as He is worthy > Even in secret He does no evil > He attained the fruit of Arahantship > To Thee, the Worthy One, my homage be. > > 2. By wisdom He is Sammasambuddha > By teaching He is Sammasambuddha > A fully Enlightened one is He in the world > To Thee, the fully Enlightened One, my homage be. > > 3. He is endowed with wisdom and knowledge > His wisdom is made known > The past, future and present He knows > To Thee who is endowed with wisdom and > knowledge, my homage be > > 4. He is Sugata being self-disciplined > Being good He is Sugata > In the sense of going to the good state of Nibbana > To Thee, the Sugata, my homage be. > > 5. By name He is Lokavidu > He knows the past and future > Things, beings and space He knows > To Thee, the Knower of worlds, my homage be. > > 6. By wisdom and conduct unrivalled is He > Who is the Unrivalled of the world > In this world He is revered as an Incomparable One > That Incomparable One, I salute. > > 7. O Charioteer, the King Charioteer > A charioteer, a clever trainer is He of Deva > Who is a clever charioteer of the world > And is a respectful charioteer in this world, > That great trainer, I salute. > > 8. To Devas, Yakkhas and men in this world > He gives the highest fruits > Among those taming the untamed > To Thee, O Remarkable One, my homage be. > > 9. The Bhagava is repleted with fortune > He has destroyed all passions > He has crossed the ocean of Samsara > To that Blessed One, my homage be. > > If you want to hear the chant as an MP3 file and/or download a book > of Pali devotional chants, these can be found at: > > http://www.buddhanet.net/audio-chant.htm > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 34093 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:19am Subject: RE: [dsg] oral tradition Hi Andrew and everyone, A> Nice to see Herman back again posing more difficult and unfashionable questions! :-) You keep me on the edge of my seat, Herman, but in this instance I have some questions I would like to hear your thoughts on, if you have the time and inclination. See below. ============================================================= H> Sure thing, not a problem :-) ============================= --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: You talk about the recitation of the texts in groups of hundreds of > people (500 comes up a lot of times in the texts - to me it is > figurative language). Unless these same hundreds were all present each > time the Buddha spoke his living words, what is it that was jointly > remembered and recited? > > The suttas depict the Buddha in solitude, addressing individuals, small > groups, medium groups and large groups, variously composed of lay > people, monks, nuns, royalty, devas, you name it. When did he speak in > the company of the same large groups of saints with impeccable memories? > Your guess is as good as mine. It takes less mental gymnastics to accept > that what was remembered and recited had already been cast into a mould > of tradition, rather than accepting that we have the living words of the > Master before us. ============================================================== A> First of all, when I studied anthropology, I loved to read about the first anthropologists who went to study the Pygmies in Africa. The Pygmies, of course, have an entirely oral tradition and they had never seen writing in use. They formed the view that the anthropologists were stupid people with feeble memories. "What's wrong? Won't you remember all this?" they would ask. Having been brought up in a non-oral culture, it is very very hard for us to understand and accept the vitality of oral traditions. ============================================================== H> This is a very good example to prove your point, and I love the observations of the Pygmies re feeble memories. But I can't just leave it there, sorry :-) I need to ask for all oral traditions, does the oral tradition in question acknowledge the changes within itself over time, or have things been this way or that since memory immemorial? Very bluntly put, traditions that do not acknowledge the flux within them, are not there to give factual accounts. There are aboriginal tribes in North-West Australia, which have Dutch words in their language (eg bootje = little boat), and some of the tribe members have very blonde, very frizzy hair. An anthropological account of this is that shipwrecked Dutch sailors in the 16th and 17th century lived with these tribes, and left a mark. There is no account of these events in the oral traditions, to the best of my knowledge. ======================================================================== A> I think you are seriously underestimating the Pali lineage. You say that the Buddha spoke to individuals or small groups etc and how could this have been transmitted. But he was one of the most famous teachers in all India at the time and there was no shortage of people "hanging off his every word". You will also read in the suttas about people reciting to other people in detail what had just been said. I really don't share your concern in this regard. ======================================================================= H> I want to state very clearly that the historicity of the suttas is not a matter of concern for me. Their value lies not in them being an accurate portrayal of what was said by whom to whom in this place at that time. If a story, a myth, a teaching doesn't do anything for anyone, over time it will disappear from the record, whether oral or written. But I accept that I may well be underestimating the Pali lineage. Will the Buddhist tradition in a hundred years reflect that secular Western archeologists rediscovered the birthplace of the Buddha, buried under 10 feet of history, presumably because the local Indian populace couldn't have cared less? ===================================================================== A> Now to some questions. As Buddhists, we believe in kamma, action and result. I take it you do not dispute that there are people alive today who have "photographic memories"? Do you believe that past kamma plays any part at all in these people being born with this remarkable ability? ================================================================== H> I accept all those things you mention. And I also have a brain segment with a rational ability which is not of my own making :-) Take the following. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud4-05.html How is it that the utterances of the Buddha in solitude, of which there are many examples in the suttas, come to be faithfully recited by hundreds? And who was the elephant-mind-reader? ================================================================ A> Do you believe in the Buddhist cosmology etc which tells us that a teaching Buddha appears very rarely and it is a great fortune to be alive in the place where one is teaching? Does the past action of the people who were around the Buddha have any significance regarding how they came to be there? Or were they no different from the people we see brawling in the streets of Portugal at the present soccer tournament? ================================================================= H> I am not sure what you mean here, but I tend to assume that a simpler explanation is more likely to be correct than a more complex one. (Occam's razor). The Tipitaka as an exact verbatim account of what the Buddha said said to whom, when and where beggars belief. But as I said before, it is not a big deal. Tales of Father Christmas and Little Red Riding Hood have more influence than you and I can imagine, while most come to realise they do not represent actual happenings to actual historical beings. I value the teachings in the Tipitaka highly. I do not worship them. The reality the Buddha studied is still there, as anatta, anicca and dukkha as ever. Studying texts about reality is a sidestep, followed by more sidesteps. ================================================================ A> Herman, you seem to me to be underestimating your fellow human beings and, in a subtle way, clinging to the wrong view of 'no consequences from actions' and that there is no difference from the time of a teaching Buddha to a time when the Teachings are disappearing. Am I being unfair? What role do you see for "saddha" (confidence, faith)? Is it a strength or a weakness, in your view? ======================================================== H> You would have to read and reread the accounts of Angulimala, and the brilliantly clear sayings of the Buddha on kamma, without any mental gymnastics, to see if there are consequences from action, and to what extent, if any? But sometimes I seriously wonder whether those who have a "burning need* to have an unshakeable foundation such as an oral tradition turned into glyphs can come to recognize this as the need of an ego that knows it's on shaky ground. Everyone has faith. Each time I move my feet I believe the earth will rise up to meet them. So far, so good. But if the fruit of the teachings is not tested or testable, or if there simply is no fruit to test, than faith is a means by which samsara is propagated. I hope I haven't been too sharp or blunt :-) Herman With best wishes Andrew 34094 From: Sukinderpal Singh Narula Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 2:31am Subject: Formal Sitting or Natural Arising? (was: Re: Video Games?) Hi Rob Ep, Sorry to be a little late in responding. Our maid left and so I have to help my wife with taking care of the kids. Believe it or not, it is more stressful for me being at home than being at work, my two boys are extremely undisciplined (like me) and disobedient. :-( I now go to parts of your post: > I think the post taken as a whole is a very well-rounded description > of many aspects of the Buddha's path and I understand a little better > some of the differences you emphasize between practices as a vehicle, > versus the objects of practice as realities. > > Still, there is no reason that I see that meditation, taken in the way > you describe, cannot be an excellent vehicle for seeing these realities. > > As for my seeing satipatthana as the fruit of practice, well, I have > to admit I find some confusing contradictions there. It doesn't seem > that there is any way that I can characterize meditation that allows > it to be a ground for satipatthana in the mind of my friends here. I don't know if your perspective has changed since, but allow me to express my own understanding. Study or pariyatti is a level of understanding dhamma where the object is a "concept" about dhamma. This level can be of any degree ranging from a vague idea about the truth of the particular concept, to a reference back from direct experience, hence a deeper and more firm understanding of the concept. This latter also ranges anywhere from directly apprehending the particular characteristics of any given reality to penetrating its tilakkhana. Practice or patipatti, has instead of concept, the `actual characteristic' of the dhamma as object. Here however, it may not refer to the tilakkhana, since after all, the tilakkhana is apprehended by the very high level of panna at the moment of enlightenment, and this would be the realization or pativedha level. This is the basic difference between study and practice. Now why is it called practice? Firstly as you must now understand, it is the jump from `intellectual', `conceptual' understanding, to direct experience of the `realities' what those concepts point to. Secondly, because this necessarily is a slow process involving an ever increasing familiarity with the different realities through the six doorways, it is the same in meaning as practice in the conventional sense, such as playing golf or the piano. Mastery is reached as more practice is done. Only here, unlike conventional activities which can be mastered regardless of one's basic temperament and level of understanding, accumulated ignorance and wrong view constantly arises at all times and at all levels of progress to take us away from walking the middle path. This is why the association with the wise friend is imperative and reference back to the basics, i.e. book knowledge is often the `wise thing' to do. Also take for example when one is having difficulty comprehending something, what does one do? Ask a knowledgeable friend, no? And on being given an answer and conditions are right, isn't there sometimes a level of insight? Does this happen when we intentionally observe our own minds for the same purpose? I think when we do this, we are being lead by lobha and wrong view and this often conditions conceit too. And if indeed the accumulations are good, even at this point it is not too late because `conceit' and `wrong view' are also realities capable of being known. And what happens when one does observe conceit for example? Can one continue to intentionally observe without conditioning more conceit? If panna arises, it must be accompanied by a degree of detachment. I think it is only lobha that conditions wanting to continue with the self-centered observation. I talked earlier about a level of accumulated understanding, saccannana, where one is constantly being reminded about the relevance of coming back to the presently arisen reality. This level is conditioned by a firm intellectual understanding of the Noble Truths informed by much practice (as in conditioned moments of satipatthana). This is not something that anyone can "will". We can't *decide* to observe the present moment. We can only be fooled by ambition to end up being drawn by our projections or else believe wrongly that the Buddha taught us to do such a thing. It seems some are drawn by `intention' and `book knowledge' into believing in conventional idea of `application'. It is as if they are being led by Buddhist concepts which they may only understand *very superficially*, but instead it is as if they know some part of the Teachings well enough to "apply". They may claim to do so in order to understand deeper the meaning, but what about *now*?! How sure are you that what drives you to `observe' or `meditate' is a reliable guide? How do you know if it is not `lobha and wrong view' dictating? If on the one hand you `practice' in order to directly understand dhammas, why on the other hand are you not cautious with regard to the dhamma which propels you to `intentionally observe'? `Sati' is a conditioned reality and many are those conditions. Intention is one of them for sure, but it also arises with wrong view. On the other hand Right View is the leader at the moment of satipatthana. And the function of `intention' is not important with regard to supporting the other path factors in the development of wisdom. We can't talk of developed and accumulated intention, can we? It seems to me that it is the manifestation of `intention' when it accompanies desire and wrong view, that it `seeks and anticipates'. But dhammas arise and fall in an instant and long gone before `we' know it. But `sati and panna' can directly apprehend those realities, and this takes place when the conditions are right, one of which is *not* `deliberate looking'. This latter will only find shadows and make conclusions based on any wrong view accompanying. And in the process it has become attached to the illusion of result and further developed more wrong view. > You now agree with me in the sense that Buddha did encourage jhana for > those in a position to develop it, and that he encouraged others to > see the paramatha dhamma arising in any given situation, position or > activity. But despite this meditation seems to be a problem. You show > how gradual seeds of understanding may be planted by reading the > suttas, and this is the same sense in which I mean that satipatthana > is the "fruit" of meditation, as it is the fruit of whatever > activities cause kusala accumulations. But I don't believe that the Buddha `encouraged' jhana as a means to develop vipassana! He encouraged it as he would any kusala only he further encouraged his audience to "know" it, just as he would encourage anyone who was doing anything else. And in so far that this was his basic attitude, he did not prescribe any `practice' as a means to develop satipatthana, but he would encourage anyone to observe the realities NOW. In suggesting the four factors to Stream Entry, he did not recommend a practice, but simply `described' conditions. It is up to one's own panna to appreciate this and other conditions to whether these conditions will or will not occur. But still, Sutta study is kusala. But this is not talking about an `activity', but rather the understanding of what it means to listen or read words of an enlightened being. This obviously implies an understanding of what those words mean and one's understanding of the true dhamma as against false dhamma. Of course this is `conceptual' and `doing it' is an activity. But this is because I am `describing' it. Reading is reading, listening is listening, dhammas of seeing, visible object, hearing, sound, thinking and so on are involved. Pariyatti is the moment of understanding the concepts and patipatti is when satipatthana arises. And this can happen even when engaging in the activity of study. One difference between formal practice and Sutta study is that `pariyatti' cannot arise without `words', hence the need to actually read and listen. Whereas when engaging in formal practice, `patipatti' can arise, but this would be only if there is no lobha and ditthi. And it is a recurring conclusion in my mind, that `deliberate looking' can only occur with precisely these two mental factors. So Rob, please help me to see where I am wrong in my conclusion. Don't just put Sutta study against formal practice to show where the former can go wrong and in the process justify doing the latter. > You describe a process with studying sutta in which you just do it > with no thought of "having to," but I have no sense that I "have to" > meditate. It's just something I am drawn to do, and I understand it > in the terms that the Buddha describes it. So where is my problem? With the prevailing image of `Buddhist practice' as being associated with `sitting', can you really avoid such a conclusion? Did you practice meditation before hearing about Buddhism? If so, are you continuing with the same basic attitude only now you are observing the mind states involved? Or have you modified your attitudes to be in line with Buddhist philosophy? Your problem? Only you can answer, because only you can know if at any moment there is Right or there is Wrong view. Sorry for the length of the post, which is why I chose to address to you alone. We're quite alike here. ;-) Metta, Sukin 34095 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] oral tradition Hello Herman, all, There was no Teaching given by the Buddha that was not heard by Ananda or **repeated to him by the Buddha if he had not been present. Ananda, with his excellent memory is known as the Guardian of the Dhamma. The Buddda declared him the bhikkhu disciple who was foremost in five categories: 1. of those who had "heard much", i.e. who had learned much of the Buddha's discourses (bahussutaana.m) 2. of those who had a good memory (satimantaana.m) 3. of those who had mastery over the sequential structure of the teachings (gatimanataana.m) 4. of those who were steadfast in study (dhitimantaana.m) and, 5. of the Buddha's attendants (upatthakaana.m). Before he accepted the position of Attendant to the Buddha, he placed certain conditions before the Buddha, who accepted them. " All the monks enthusiastically offered their services, except Ananda, who modestly sat at the back in silence. Later, when asked why he had not volunteered he replied that the Buddha knew best who to pick. When the Buddha indicated that he would like Ananda to be his personal attendant, Ananda said he would accept the position, but only on several conditions. The first four conditions were that the Buddha should never give him any of the food that he received, nor any of the robes, that he should not be given any special accommodation, and that he would not have to accompany the Buddha when he accepted invitations to people's homes. Ananda insisted on these four conditions because he did not want people to think that he was serving the Buddha out of desire for material gain. The last four conditions were related to Ananda's desire to help in the promotion of the Dharma. These conditions were: that if he was invited to a meal, he could transfer the invitation to the Buddha; that if people came from outlying areas to see the Buddha, he would have the privilege of introducing them; that if he had any doubts about the Dharma, he should be able to talk to the Buddha about them at any time and that **if the Buddha gave a discourse in his absence, he would later repeat it in his presence.** The Buddha smilingly accepted these conditions and thus began a relationship between the two men that was to last for the next twenty-five years." 'The Buddha and His Disciples' by Ven. Dhammika metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > > H> I am not sure what you mean here, but I tend to assume that a simpler > explanation is more likely to be correct than a more complex one. > (Occam's razor). The Tipitaka as an exact verbatim account of what the > Buddha said said to whom, when and where beggars belief. > 34096 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:26am Subject: Talk with Rob K pt. 11 Anger Hello all The next thing Rob K and I talked about was anger and hostility. This is a topic that arises naturally for me because it's the area in which the Buddha's teachings have helped me the most clearly, I would say *** Phil: I mentioned to the group that I found the fact of being a foreigner in such a homogenous society and being self-conscious about that, though I'm getting over that - being extremely self-conscious. That this would in a sense make it much harder to break free from wrong view of self. Rob: No, I don't think so. I mean, actually we're all alone, completely, there is no self, so it doesn't matter where you are. I feel the same if I'm in Tokyo or Kumamoto (a provincial city) or Bangkok, or New Zealand, or whether I'm in a plane, or whether I'm walking, it's just all the same. Phil: You never feel self-conscious about being a non-Japanese? Rob: Not at all, not at all. Phil: Before coming to Kanagawa (suburbs of Tokyo) I lived in Gify (rural area) for 3 years, and there was a period where I had so much hostility. So much alienation. And I drank too much. There were times when the only way I could take the crowded train home was to have a beer, you know. And it never really got out of hand, but it was getting close. And that's the most explicitly recognizable gift of the BUddha's teaching and especially Abhidhamma's been that the anger and the hostility ?Eit still arises, of course ?Eit's just not overwhelming any more at all. Because when you see through to ?Eeven the intellectual understanding of annata is so liberating. Rob: Absolutely. Absolutely. Phil: The anger's not gone completely, of course. I've got the Irish thing maybe. The other day I was going to fling a dish. Not at Naomi, but because of her. And I actually picked up the dish to fling it and my arm actually stopped. Twice. Rob: That's akusala that picked up the dish. And kusala that stops you from throwing it. Phil: It's funny that very morning I'd read the verse in the Dhammapada about the chariot driver. (He who checks his anger is a true driver ?Eanyone else is just holding the reins.) Rob:I got angry with my girlfriend last month. (Tells anecdote about crossed signals about plans for a trip) But within 10 minutes I said "sorry, sorry." I was quite surprised about how angry I got about this. But it's just - I had these expectations. Even sotapanna you read about them. They cry sometimes, this and that. Even though they understand annata perfectly, (when) enough conditions arise, they can't stop dosa arising too. But they don't have dosa that they're going to kill somebody. That degree of dosa they can't have. Phil: I find in my case when we have a fight that in the past I'd leave the house without making up but now within the space of several minutes a more patient and compassionate side arises and I apologize before I go to work. I don't really intend to. It happens. Rob: That's what happens with me. The anger's still there. But it's something I see immediately as akusala. I'm not trying to justify it to myself. (inaudible) you just know. You can never justify anger. You just see it immediately as akusala. If you're trying to justify it, it just means there's no understanding. But there's never a case in Buddhism when you're right in having anger. You can still recognize someone's done something wrong. But you can't be angry about it to the same degree. Because anger is akusala. Phil: And this is probably the big question, and one has to find the answer by himself but recognizing something as akusala, seeing it, that leads to the gradual eradication of it. Just how does that happen? Rob: Seeing it as annata. Seeing it as conditioned. It's understanding annata that develops right view, that leads to become a sotappana. It's not seeing anger, but seeing any reality as annata. Phil: So again it comes back to right view. Rob: That's the only way. It's not anger per se, but any reality, whether it's anger or seeing or colour. Or wisdom. Whatever dhamma arises if you see it as conditioned reality and not me that is doing it. Phil: A beginner might think, well it's panna, this wisdom that is kind of shining a light that is burning through all my defilements. Rob: Well, I wouldn't put it in such glowing terms. Phil: But it comes back to right understanding. Of the three characteristics. Rob: If you never get angry, how are you going to understand anger? If you never get greedy, how are you going to understand greed? If it's there, and you're using it as the object for insight. And then you're afraid of it. And then you're not worried about it. And then it's not hurting anyone either. It's actually helping you. 34097 From: agriosinski Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:19am Subject: [dsg] Re: Now, what? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: [...] > The problem with logic is that you cannot determine the truth of a > proposition with logic. You can feed many propositions into a computer, > and with infallible logic come out with complete rubbish. The old adage, > rubbish in, rubbish out. > Now you very well point out further down that self is just a thought. > That is a much sounder proposition to feed into the logic machine than > the proposition that the self is an independent agent that can do stuff > of its own accord. Thoughts, at best, can be the basis for more > thoughts, and more thoughts, and more thoughts. And voila, we have > thickets of thoughts (that would sound very if pronounced with a lisp > :-)) Hi Herman, Agreed. Creating this propositions for further logical workout doesn't make any sense. > H>That's what happens with discursive thinking when there are false > premises being fed in. Now one of the things the Buddha is renowned for > is sitting very still, with a focused mind. In this state there is no > discursive thinking going on. No logic. No propositions developing into > enormous thickets. It is not necessary to study the exact nature of the > arrow that is piercing you before you can pull it out, says the Buddha. > ==================================================================== I kind of understood Middle Way as a place between extreme views. It seems to be a place between sensual plays of us common worldlings and ascetics war with senses. And the mind is one of them. metta, Agrios 34098 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] oral tradition Hi Herman and Andrew, Herman, I hope your family is well. How is the music? I thought of you just before you popped up. I am glad Andrew answered, I am less inclined to debating these days. I agree though, the contents is more important. How does it help us now. Historical arguments do not solve doubts that will keep on creeping in. Such doubts are only completely solved when we directly experience the truth. However, it is also conforting to know that there is a solid tradition of the teachings. op 22-06-2004 01:20 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > The > Pygmies, of course, have an entirely oral tradition and they had > never seen writing in use... Having been > brought up in a non-oral culture, it is very very hard for us to > understand and accept the vitality of oral traditions. N:Pygmies is a good example. We should not look down on oral tradition, that is conceit. Formerly, I did not consider so much the solidity of oral tradition, did not see enough the value of it, but some time ago I read an article about the Talmud oral tradition. This gives a very good idea of the principle of oral tradition: outstanding people who recite together and can control each other. The Sanhedrin, the highest Council, was most careful selecting the best people. It is a well founded article written in a sympathetic way. If you are interested: Aish Ha Torah. You can try, this long link worked for me. Especially the end is very instructive. Aish HaTorah - Shavuot My conclusion was: all those wise arahats, carefully selected at each of the councils, reciting together is a guarantee for the solidity and faithfulness of the tradition. That is how I see it. Nina. 34099 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Virtues of the Buddha? Hello Philip, Rob M sent you beautiful stanzas. I would just like to add a few words. op 22-06-2004 01:46 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > What are the traditional lists, if you will, of the virtues of the > Buddha that are used in such recollections? N: Through the practice of what the Buddha taught we come to have a deeper understanding of his wisdom, his purity and his compassion. Studying the teachings with respect means: studying and developing understanding. We show him the greatest respect by awareness and understanding of a rupa or a nama that appears. When hardness appears that can be realized as a kind of rupa, when sound appears that can be realized as another kind of rupa. When hearing appears that can be realized as a kind of nama. As understanding grows, our confidence in the Buddha and our respect for him grows. We can recite texts to give expression to our respect, but most important is satipatthana. We also learn by satipatthana that showing respect is not ours, our kusala. Nina. 34100 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:33am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 2 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 2 When we are dreaming or thinking, the object is a concept. Seeing is different from thinking, seeing is a paramattha dhamma. This has to be known over and over again by sati and paññå, by sati-sampajañña, at the moment they occur. When we have a notion of an image, of details, of shape and form, it is not seeing that experiences visible object, but it is thinking of concepts. If we try to focus on seeing or visible object with an idea of self, we are thinking, not seeing visible object. Then the understanding of paramattha dhammas is doomed to failure. We should asked ourselves whether there is any understanding of what dhamma is. Such understanding is the foundation for satipaììhåna. Only through satipatthåna we shall know without fail what dhamma is and what a concept. People wonder what satiptthåna exactly is. The word satipatthåna has three meanings. In the Commentary to the Book of Analysis, the Dispeller of Delusion (I, Ch 7, A. Suttanta Division) it is said: ³...There are three kinds of foundation of mindfulness, satipatthåna: 1. the domain of mindfulness (sati gocaro) 2. the Master¹s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice]. 3. mindfulness (sati). As to the domain of mindfulness, sati gocara, this refers to the object of sati, the objects of mindfulness grouped as the four Applications of Mindfulness: Mindfulness of body, of feelings, of cittas and of dhammas. As to the third meaning: mindfulness, sati, this refers to sati cetasika that is aware of the characteristics of realities. As regards the second meaning, satipatthåna that is the Master¹s threefold surpassing of resentment and gratification (delight) as regards the entry of his disciples [on the way of practice], this is the way along which the Buddha and his disciples went. The ³Discourse on the Analysis of the Sixfold Sense-field² (Middle Length Sayings² III, no 137) explains that the Buddha is untroubled, mindful and clearly conscious when disciples who listen to the Dhamma turn away, when some of them pay attention but others do not, or when they pay attention to his words. It is said that disciples who are like the Tathågata in this way are ³fit to instruct a group², thus, fit to explain the Dhamma to others. **** Nina. 34101 From: Andrew Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] oral tradition Hi Herman Thanks for your reply. I can see nothing too blunt or sharp in it. On the contrary, it is well said. I like your posts, even when they are disagreeing with my views! (-: My own post was a bit rushed and muddled. If I can put it in a nutshell, all I wanted to say was "stay open to the tradition". I once read a book by Jacques Ellul in which he said that one of the great underlying sentiments/beliefs of modern humanity is that history is progressive i.e. that we are superior to our ancestors. As I see it, this belief tends to underlie modern scepticism about the achievements of our ancestors ("How could they have possibly done all that way back then??"). And such sceptisism is a two edged sword. I take on board your comments about the oral transmission of hunter/gatherer societies (noting that the Aborigines have a tradition of not speaking about a person after his or her death). The obvious thing to note here, of course, is that the Sangha was so much more organised and focussed on the memorisation task than a few hunter/gatherer story reciters. My mind is open to the likelihood that they, by and large, achieved what they set out to achieve. All in all, though, Herman, I think you yourself hit the nail on the head with this comment: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Everyone has faith. Each time I move my feet I believe the earth will > rise up to meet them. So far, so good. But if the fruit of the teachings > is not tested or testable, or if there simply is no fruit to test, than > faith is a means by which samsara is propagated. Even those people who protest "I don't believe in this" and "I don't believe in that" may still experience saddha as a beautiful cetasika from time to time. Faith is not "owned" by any particular person. It's a momentary thing, conditioned and without a self that is faithful. I wonder though, Herman, when you are questioning the likelihood of the Buddha's teachings being accurately transmitted without writing for such a long period of time, what exactly are you "testing"? Are you testing any particular teaching or are you just being generally sceptical? If the latter (and I have moments of it, too, BTW), I think that is akusala and samsaric. Thanks to Christine for the interesting info on Ananda, and to Nina too. Best wishes to all Andrew 34102 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:49pm Subject: Complication (was Re: Dustrags) Hi Sarah, and all S: > I said I'd add a little more on dustrags;-) > Ph:> > And isn't there a kind of conceit in this thinking? (snip) > > Dustrags can be conceited too. "Look at the footprints on me!" > .... > S: You mean like Uriah Heep who was so proud of being humble if I recall? > Yes, conceit can arise on account of anything and it may be true -- you > may be more humble! But at these times there is no understanding of the > `dustrag?Ewhich is the opposite to the `banner?Eof conceit -- even if it > is one of (rightly) being more humble and unassuming. Ph: Come to think of it, I didn't mean to suggest that it is likely that annoying of even a fair modicum of understanding would fall victim to that kind of gross conceit. (ie "look at the footprints on me") And indeed, it is not so much the topic of conceit that interests me, but unnessary complication. We are bound to think conceptually - we need to to survive in the world- but should it be encouraged as a method of right understanding? It just seemed to me that the whole simile of the dustrag is unnecessarily complicated. If we have understanding of annata and the other characteristics - even intellectual knowledge - why not go straight there? Isn't giving rise to the simile of a dustrag a kind of papanca that we could avoid? I am just beginning to learn about papanca. I think the most common translation is proliferation, but the commentary I read used complication, in a footnote in Vism IV 33 "he diversifies" is used. Can't right understanding of the three characteristics do away with the need to think of oneself as a dustrag? As I said before, I like concepts and have had similar practices. I remember reading that Thich Nhat Han encouraged us to think of ourselves as flowers, offering freshing to others, and I thought this was also a useful simile to think of impermanence. I used it quite a lot, and I think it was useful to help me begin to broach the three characteristics. But now I am thinking there are more direct ways to get at the three characteristics, even for someone with my limited understanding. And as concepts go, it seems the dutrag is more complicated in other ways, suggesting that we absorb the akusala behaviour of others. Maybe I am thinking too literally. In K Sujin's teaching, a dustrug is a symbol of being a nobody, which I can appreciate the wisdom of, not necessarily with the connotation of soking up other people's toxins. Personally, I prefer using symbols of water that wash away defilements. Water seems much less complicated. I'm think of AN 130, the Lekha Sutta. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-130.html I would rather be letters written in water that washes away concern with other people's behaviour based on right understanding than a dustrug that sounds more subject to other people's behaviour. And which has a more concrete feeling self-image. S: > We also know that because of the attachment to self and finding oneself so > important, we cling to the 8 worldly conditions and very seldom see the > value of being a `nobody?Eor a dust-rag as Sariputta did. On one of our > trips to India, K.Sujin talked a lot about the value of reflecting in this > very way. When I first heard it, again the banner would start waving and I > was aware of how much discomfort there was at considering the value of > being a door-mat that anyone could criticise or trample over. Ph: Again, in my case it's not really discomfort about being trampled over. "Wise men live in low places - like water" is a passage I always remember from on of the Chinese philosophers. (I think you would know who it is.) But I would have thought we would choose a more direct method of rightly understanding oneself as a nobody. S:>Gradually, > I've come to appreciate these reminders more and more and to see what > precious `treasure?Ethey are. Ph: I agree. And how much mroe precious being able to get right at understanding annata. This is actually something I talked about with Rob K. I told him about the Thich Nhat Hahn flower simile. He said that when he teaches his students in Japan, he gets right at what is happening here and now. So willingly hang on to concepts such as dust rags. "Don't hang around the entry gate?" as I put it at the time. "No," he said. "Because it can lead to wrong understanding" he replied, or words to that effect. S quoting Nina:> "Khun Sujin had reminded us in India to become like a dustrag which serves > for wiping the feet. A dustrag takes up filth and is undisturbed by it. > One should become as humble as a dustrag. Sariputta, who could forgive > anybody, no matter whether that person treated him in an unjust manner, > compared himself with a dustrag. Ph: If we udnerstand that people behave the way they do because of conditions, if we understand the three characteristics, even in a basic intellectual way, why do we have to compare oneself with a dustrag. I suppse I do have sort of resistance to this idea. It sounds so darn Christian! (I remember reading Meister Eckhardt say "he who is a servant is already a great man." That sounds more like it could lead to conceit potentially.) S quoting Nina: >He had no conceit. When right > understanding has been developed one will cling less to the self, there > will be more humbleness. During the discussions Khun Sujin said again: > > I would like to be a dustrag. I follow the way to be one, it is my > resolution. Our resolution means that we take action by developing > understanding and metta. Ph: I would have thought that when right understanding has been developed there will be humbleness, naturally, but no thinking of it conceptually in terms of things like dustrags. S quoting Nina:> It is beneficial to be reminded again of the dustrag, because humbleness > seems to go against our nature. Ph: It seems to me that direct investigation of annata goes against our nature more. Humbleness is a kind of self-image, and any kind of self-image is comforting compared to letting go of all self-images. I'll have to stop there. I'll just add one more passage from Nina's last installment of Perseverence in Dhamma (Ch 6 pt 2 if I'm not mistaken.): "When we have a notion of an image, of details, of shape and form, it is not seeing that experiences visible object, but it is thinking of concepts. If we try to focus on seeing or visible object with an idea of self, we are thinking, not seeing visible object. Then the understanding of paramattha dhammas is doomed to failure." Ph: So, again an encouragement here to get right at paramattha dhammas instead of lingering with concepts. The only reason I'm insisting on this is that it is a little bit confusing to usually be encouraged to get directly at paramattha dhammas and then on the other hand to be encouraged to think conceptually about oneself - whether it is as a dustrug or a flower or water. So it is not really the matter of being trampled on that bothers me, but just a bit of confusion about why this kind of conceptual practice slipped in. Thanks for your feedback, Sarah. I'd be happy to carry on with this discussion. Maybe it could be more in the area of "concepts vs realities" or "complication" (papanca) rather than conceit. I'm very interested in starting to understand papanca these days, and am wondering about to what degree we are to let go of complication/proliferation/diversification and get right at realities. To what degree can we be like the one who "stops at what is merely seen" or "apprehends what is really there" as Vism I 54 has it.(Not sure what sutta it is referring to - Visuddhimaga is quite hard to figure out!:) Metta, Phil 34103 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 5:58pm Subject: Typos Hi all Found some typos in my recent posts. I wouldn't bother pointing them out except that two of them completely changed the meaning of key sentences! In my last installment of Talk with Rob K, it should be "we are not afraid" not "we are afraid" of seeing anger when it arises. In the precious post about dustrags, it should be we "we don't hang on to self-images" not "we hang on to self-images." And "anyone with a modicum of understanding." Not "annoying with a modicum of understanding." Though the latter may be more accurate in my case! I'll be more careful about poof-reading from now on. Metta, Phil 34104 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:24pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Typos Hi Philip, Nice to read your posts. The following cracked me up :-) >I'll be more careful about poof-reading from now on. With good cheer Herman 34105 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 7:06pm Subject: RE: [dsg] oral tradition Hi Andrew, Thanks for the pointer to stay open to tradition. Yes, I agree that the tradition can be valuable in its own right. The solidity of the Theravadan tradition can certainly be a great magnet to draw people to the "doctor". Eventually, however, it is up to each of us whether we take the prescribed medicine or not. I think I err on the side of skepticism in my statements about traditions because I fear that sometimes it is considered enough just to be a part of this great millennia-long tradition, that belonging will somehow work some vicarious magic :-). I know for myself that there is nothing curative about the tradition; neither is there any salutary value in just how historically accurate its self-portrayal is. It is the practice (in whatever form that may be) that sets people free. It is the results that prove that the recipe was right. I am also aware of the very fine line between respect and reverence/worship. I think the latter is a detrimental state of mind in itself, and more so because it can be confused with respect. As Nina says, the greatest respect one can pay a teacher is to follow their advice. Practical respect for the tradition and teacher is very sound practice, while a worshipful attitude can lead to silabatta-paramasa (oh, that word :-)), which stands in the way of stream-entry. I agree with you about the dangers of viewing history as being progressive, and it is good to be reminded of faith as intentionless, momentary arising. Thank you, and Christine and Nina too Herman -----Original Message----- From: Andrew [mailto:athel60@t...] Sent: Wednesday, 23 June 2004 9:29 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] oral tradition Hi Herman Thanks for your reply. I can see nothing too blunt or sharp in it. On the contrary, it is well said. I like your posts, even when they are disagreeing with my views! (-: My own post was a bit rushed and muddled. If I can put it in a nutshell, all I wanted to say was "stay open to the tradition". I once read a book by Jacques Ellul in which he said that one of the great underlying sentiments/beliefs of modern humanity is that history is progressive i.e. that we are superior to our ancestors. As I see it, this belief tends to underlie modern scepticism about the achievements of our ancestors ("How could they have possibly done all that way back then??"). And such sceptisism is a two edged sword. I take on board your comments about the oral transmission of hunter/gatherer societies (noting that the Aborigines have a tradition of not speaking about a person after his or her death). The obvious thing to note here, of course, is that the Sangha was so much more organised and focussed on the memorisation task than a few hunter/gatherer story reciters. My mind is open to the likelihood that they, by and large, achieved what they set out to achieve. All in all, though, Herman, I think you yourself hit the nail on the head with this comment: --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Everyone has faith. Each time I move my feet I believe the earth will > rise up to meet them. So far, so good. But if the fruit of the teachings > is not tested or testable, or if there simply is no fruit to test, than > faith is a means by which samsara is propagated. Even those people who protest "I don't believe in this" and "I don't believe in that" may still experience saddha as a beautiful cetasika from time to time. Faith is not "owned" by any particular person. It's a momentary thing, conditioned and without a self that is faithful. I wonder though, Herman, when you are questioning the likelihood of the Buddha's teachings being accurately transmitted without writing for such a long period of time, what exactly are you "testing"? Are you testing any particular teaching or are you just being generally sceptical? If the latter (and I have moments of it, too, BTW), I think that is akusala and samsaric. Thanks to Christine for the interesting info on Ananda, and to Nina too. Best wishes to all Andrew 34106 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 9:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Talk with Rob K pt. 11 Anger Dear Philip, thank you very much. I like the end especially. op 22-06-2004 14:26 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > Rob: If you never get angry, how are you going to understand anger? > If you never get greedy, how are you going to understand greed? If > it's there, and you're using it as the object for insight. And then > you're afraid of it. And then you're not worried about it. And then > it's not hurting anyone either. It's actually helping you. N: As A. Sujin said, we have to understand first nama and rupa before we really know what kusala is and what akusala is. We are mostly thinking about kusala and akusala. I quote from Perseverance again: Intellectual understanding of us beginners helps, but it is not as effective as direct understanding. However, we can begin to be aware of akusala instead of being worried about it as Rob explained. Nina. 34107 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 0:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Typos Hello Phil, all, I smiled at your typos - as you point out, they can sometimes completely change the meaning of a sentence. It reminds me also that punctuation is important and can cause confusion. (I have particular trouble with apostrophes.) I'm sure you've all heard the one about the Panda (I repeat it here for the benefit of those who have so far avoided it): "A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then draws a gun and fires two shots in the air. "Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes towards the exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and tosses it over his shoulder. "I'm a panda," he says, at the door. "Look it up." The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an explanation. "PANDA. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. Eats, shoots and leaves." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- p.s. Speaking of exotic animals, I found out what happened to Gucci the Hong Kong croc ... http://www.abc.net.au/news/newsitems/200406/s1138082.htm --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Philip, > > Nice to read your posts. > > The following cracked me up :-) > > > > >I'll be more careful about poof-reading from now on. > > With good cheer > > Herman 34108 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Complication (was Re: Dustrags) Hi Phil, --- Philip wrote: > > Ph: Come to think of it, I didn't mean to suggest that it is likely > that anyone with even a fair modicum of understanding would fall > victim to that kind of gross conceit. (ie "look at the footprints on > me") .... S: On the other hand, I think the subtler (and not much subtler) versions creep in all the time.:-) ..... >And indeed, it is not so much the topic of conceit that > interests me, but unnessary complication. We are bound to think > conceptually - we need to to survive in the world- but should it be > encouraged as a method of right understanding? .... S: I don't read these examples (eg dustrag metaphor) as being an encouragement to think conceptually or 'complicate'. I think that just as certain metaphors or similes we read or hear about may be conditions for wise reflection on the brahma viharas or parami or even for moments of right understanding arising, so may others be helpful reminders of the danger of conceit or clinging to self and the value of detachment or wisdom too. It just depends on the time and our tendencies. Yesterday, Jon and I were sitting on the beach (Dragon Boat festival here), reading posts. When he read out the quotes I'd included about dustrags I found it a condition then and there for helpful reflection about the extent of commonly arising conceit and the value of being a 'nobody'. A little later, I was aware of 'self-importance' and conceit arising as usual when a neighbour turned on his radio ('I wouldn't do that', I thought), a child kicked some sand onto our mat ('I'd be more careful') and I smuggly persuaded the coffee kiosk to let me bring my tea to our mat in the shade ('others have to drink in the heat at the kiosk'). It's anatta and arises like all dhammas by conditions. It's not a matter of trying to spot it or think in any special way, but what we've just read or heard or considered can be a condition for awareness then and there. ..... > It just seemed to me that the whole simile of the dustrag is > unnecessarily complicated. If we have understanding of annata and the > other characteristics - even intellectual knowledge - why not go > straight there? Isn't giving rise to the simile of a dustrag a kind > of papanca that we could avoid? ... S: As with any similes, best to just let them go if they're not helpful. It doesn't mean we should think of anything special. Understanding of anatta and characteristics is the same as understanding of realities. This understanding has to develop and develop. We may think we know what the characteristics of conceit or attachment or anger are, but usually, this knowledge is just an idea about the more obvious features with an idea of something other than the fleeting momentary mental factors. ..... >I am just beginning to learn about > papanca. I think the most common translation is proliferation, but > the commentary I read used complication, in a footnote in Vism IV > 33 "he diversifies" is used. Can't right understanding of the three > characteristics do away with the need to think of oneself as a > dustrag? .... S: Of course there can be wise and unwise reflection (i.e papanca) of anything including dustrags. If one has the idea that one should think of oneself as a dustrag, it might be yet another ritual and definitely a kind of papanca, I agree. As a side note, understanding of the three characteristics always relates *the characteristics of realities*. There cannot be the understanding of anatta without understanding the characteristic of seeing or visible object or conceit, for example. It is the understanding of these realities as anatta that is meant. ..... > As I said before, I like concepts and have had similar practices. .... S: I don't think this is what is meant at all with the dust-rag simile. It's a reminder right now about clinging to self and conceit and the value of relinquishment. It's also a reminder (for me) to reflect on the qualities of the Buddha,Sariputta and others who were totally unmoved, like the earth, by what was spat or discarded upon them. It's not a practice or thing to do. Again, as some of us stress, the suttas can be read as descriptions, not prescriptions or steps to follow with an idea of ritual or self. <...> As with your other flower example, we can read anything with the idea of self and rules or not. It depends on the understanding rather than what we read. .... > And as concepts go, it seems the dustrag is more complicated in > other ways, suggesting that we absorb the akusala behaviour of > others. .... S: We're not responsible for others behaviour which depends on its own complex set of conditions. What we experience depends on conditions too, including previous kamma. We can appreciate the value of wholesome states like metta, karuna and upekkha, generosity, forgiveness and wisdom with detachment at any time whatever is experienced. If there is conceit or anger, there can be awareness too. No complication! No need to think out long stories or proliferate further. ..... >Maybe I am thinking too literally. In K Sujin's teaching, a > dustrug is a symbol of being a nobody, which I can appreciate the > wisdom of, not necessarily with the connotation of soking up other > people's toxins. .... S: She's say straight away that it's not her teaching but the Buddha's. I think the connotation is more one of detachment than 'soaking up'. Being undisturbed by not finding oneself important in any way. No banner flying at this time. .... > Personally, I prefer using symbols of water that wash away > defilements. Water seems much less complicated. I'm think of AN 130, > the Lekha Sutta. > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-130.html > > I would rather be letters written in water that washes away concern > with other people's behaviour based on right understanding than a > dustrug that sounds more subject to other people's behaviour. And > which has a more concrete feeling self-image. .... S: I like this a lot too: "And how is an individual like an inscription in water? There is the case where a certain individual -- when spoken to roughly, spoken to harshly, spoken to in an unpleasing way -- is nevertheless congenial, companionable, & courteous. Just as an inscription in water immediately disappears and doesn't last a long time, in the same way a certain individual -- when spoken to roughly, spoken to harshly, spoken to in an unpleasing way -- is nevertheless congenial, companionable, & courteous. This is called an individual like an inscription in water." .... S: Wonderful sutta. Similar message - perhaps the dust-rag just takes it a little further. Indeed it's a kindness to forget the 'inscription in water immediately' - a kind of dana or forgiveness again. No grudges or papanca. Thank you for this one. .... > Ph: Again, in my case it's not really discomfort about being > trampled over. "Wise men live in low places - like water" is a > passage I always remember from on of the Chinese philosophers. (I > think you would know who it is.) But I would have thought we would > choose a more direct method of rightly understanding oneself as a > nobody. .... S: Yes, it depends on accumulations. LIke you, without some appreciation of Abhidhamma first, I'm not sure the following reflections alone would ever condition an appreciation of anatta. Now I find them priceless. From the PTS translation (Hare) it is in Bk of 9s, Ch 11 'The Lion Roar', i,11 (as Jim said) and also in B.Bodhi's "Numerical Discourses of the Buddha', under 'Sariputta's Lion's Roar', p231. "Just as, Lord, people throw upon the earth things clean and unclean, dung, urine, spittle, pus and blood, yet for all that the earth has no revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart that is like the earth, vast, exalted and measureless, without hostility and without ill will. However, one in whom mindfulness directed on the body in regard to the body is not present may well hit a fellow monk and leave without an apology. "Just as. Lord, people use water to wash things clean and unclean, things soiled....... "Just as, Lord, fire burns things clean and unclean, things soiled.... "Just as, Lord, the wind blows over things clean and unclean..... "Lord, just as a duster *[S: i.e dust-rag]* wipes over things clean and unclean, things soiled with dung, urine, pus and blood, yet for all that the duster has no revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart that is like a duster.... "Lord, just as an outcast boy or girl, begging-vessel in hand and clad in rags, enters a village with a humble heart; even so, Lord, do I dwell with a heart like that of an outcast youth, a heart that is vast, exalted and measureless, without hostility and without ill will...... ***** <...> > Ph: I would have thought that when right understanding has been > developed there will be humbleness, naturally, but no thinking of it > conceptually in terms of things like dustrags. ... S: Agreed. As you can see, Sariputta still used metaphors of dustrags and many others in order to help others appreciate the value of certain qualities. .... > Ph: It seems to me that direct investigation of annata goes against > our nature more. Humbleness is a kind of self-image, and any kind of > self-image is comforting compared to letting go of all self-images. .... S: If the consideration leads to more attachment to self (i.e more self-image), then I agree it's worse than useless. Like you said to Nori I think, (very rough paraphrase) -- it's hard enough to know our own cittas, no need to worry about the others'. ..... > I'll have to stop there. I'll just add one more passage from > Nina's last installment of Perseverence in Dhamma (Ch 6 pt 2 if I'm > not mistaken.): > > "When we have a notion of an image, of details, of shape and > form, it is not seeing that experiences visible object, but it is > thinking > of concepts. If we try to focus on seeing or visible object with an > idea of > self, we are thinking, not seeing visible object. Then the > understanding of > paramattha dhammas is doomed to failure." > > Ph: So, again an encouragement here to get right at paramattha > dhammas instead of lingering with concepts. ... S: Excelellent quote. Like in the 'inscription in water' metaphor, there is no suggestion of 'lingering with concepts' -- quite the contrary. <..> I read the 'inscription in water', 'dustrag' and other examples as being reminders not to attend to 'image and details' or to think conceptually about oneself. In other words, they are reminders of the guarding of the sense doors (as compared to proliferations about 'what happened to me etc') and reminders of paramattha dhammas being experienced at this very moment. We might think we've been spoken to harshly, but in truth only sound was heard. Why is there a long story and attention to image, shape and details? Ignorance, conceit and attachment to self (i.e the opposite of the dustrag or inscription in water) as was shown in the 'inscription in rock' from the Lekha Sutta again: "And how is an individual like an inscription in rock? There is the case where a certain individual is often angered, and his anger stays with him a long time. Just as an inscription in rock is not quickly effaced by wind or water and lasts a long time, in the same way a certain individual is often angered, and his anger stays with him a long time. This is called an individual like an inscription in rock. .... <...> >I'm very > interested in starting to understand papanca these days, and am > wondering about to what degree we are to let go of > complication/proliferation/diversification and get right at > realities. ... S: As you've said, understanding of realities leads naturally to seeing the dangers of papanca(proliferation) which arises with all unwholesome cittas. No self or rules involved, however;-) .... >To what degree can we be like the one who "stops at what > is merely seen" or "apprehends what is really there" as Vism I 54 > has it.(Not sure what sutta it is referring to - Visuddhimaga is > quite hard to figure out!:) .... S: Good reference. This is the function of pa~n~naa and sati -- not to apprehend the signs (nimitta) or particulars (anubya~njana), i.e guarding of the sense doors momentarily like Sariputta in the sutta above. Again, as you've stressed, these mental states are anatta too. Glad to discuss further. I find your comments very helpful and perceptive. Metta, Sarah p.s Thank you for your kind and encouraging posts on 'Abhidhamma' to others too. I learn from these as well;-) ===== 34109 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:31am Subject: Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (7) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Jhaana and the Attainment of Stream-entry (5) TThe faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower are the lowest members of a sevenfold typology of noble persons mentioned in the Nikaayas as an alternative to the more common scheme of "the four pairs of persons," the four path-attainers and the realizers of their respective fruits.[18] The seven fall into three groups. At the apex are the arahants, who are distinguished into two types: (i) "both-ways-liberated" arahants (ubhatobhaagavimutta), who gain release from the taints together with deep experience of the formless attainments; and (ii) "wisdom-liberated" arahants (pa--aavimutta), who win release from the taints without such experience of the formless attainments. Next are three types in the intermediate range, from stream-enterers up to those on the path to arahantship. These are: (iii) the body-witness (kaayasakkhii), who has partly eliminated the taints and experiences the formless attainments; (iv) the view-attainer (di.t.thippatta), who does not experience the formless attainments and has partly eliminated the taints, with emphasis on wisdom; and (v) the faith-liberated (saddhaavimutta), who does not experience the formless attainments and has partly eliminated the taints, with emphasis on faith. Any disciple at the six intermediate stages - from stream-enterer to one on the path to arahantship - can fall into any of these three categories; the distinctions among them are not determined by degree of progress but by mode of progress, whether through strong concentration, wisdom, or faith. Finally come the two kinds of anusaarii (vi-vii), who are on the path to stream-entry. What is noteworthy about this list is that samaadhi, as a faculty, does not determine a class of its own until after the fruit of stream-entry has been realized. That is, facility in concentration determines a distinct type of disciple among the arahants (as the both-ways-liberated arahant) and among the aspirants for the higher stages (as the body-witness), but not among the aspirants for stream-entry. In this lowest category we have only the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower, who owe their status to faith and wisdom, respectively, but there is no type corresponding to the body-witness.[19] ****** Notes 18. The fullest discussion of this sevenfold typology is at MN I 477-79. The seven types are also defined, somewhat differently, at Pp 14-15. 19. One possible exception to this statement is a curious sutta, AN 7:53/ IV 78. Here the Buddha begins by discussing the first six types, of which the first two are said to be "without residue" (anupaadisesa), i.e., of defilements, which means that they are arahants; the next four are said to be "with residue" (sa-upaadisesa), meaning they have some defilements and thus are not yet arahants. But in the seventh position, where we would expect to find the saddhaanusaarii, he inserts instead "the seventh type, the person who dwells in the signless" (sattama.m animittavihaari.m puggala.m). This is explained as "a monk who, through non-attention to all signs, enters and dwells in the signless mental concentration" (bhikkhu sabbanimittaana.m amanasikaaraa animitta.m cetosamaadhi.m upasampajja viharati). This assertion seems to open up, as an alternative to the faith-follower, a class of aspirants for stream-entry who specialize in concentration. But this passage is unique in the Nikaayas and has not formed the basis for an alternative system of classification. Moreover, the commentary explains the "signless mental concentration" to be "strong insight concentration" (balava-vipassanaa-samaadhi), so called because it removes the signs of permanence, pleasure, and selfhood. (See Mp IV 40 PTS ed.; II 720 SHB ed.) Thus it is questionable whether even the recognition of this type means that samatha concentration determines a class of disciple on the path to stream-entry. 34110 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Stealing (was: Bodhi: The Jhaanas .....) Hi Christine, Azita & All, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > I don't mean to be going on about this - but this is a little scary. > I thought it was only the major questions in life that I wasn't > right on top of - anatta, rebirth, kamma, you know - the usual > suspects :-). I wonder if it isn't those questions that should be > taking up most of my reflection time, but rather getting to know > myself and the world I live in as we really are. ... S: I think this is a good point and there shouldn't be any conflict or distinction between our study of Dhamma and 'getting to know 'oneself' and the world 'we' live in as 'we' really are'. As Azita said, before we heard the Dhamma, there was perversion of perception (and all the other perversions too, but we had no idea. Understanding a little more about what isn't known is a good sign. When I gave the example of the puppies, I was also thinking of all the kittens we used to give away as a family too(a 'cat' family;-)). There isn't necessarily or usually any idea of stealing at these times just as there isn't for those country folk here I mentioned who might think they own the wild life at their door-steps. From the commentary on the Minor Readings (Paramatthajotikaa), PTS, The Ten Training Precepts,p21: "Now when someone, in the case of some such thing already taken possession of by another, perceives it as something already taken possession of by another, then 'taking what is not given' is his choice to steal, occurring in either the body door or the speech door, and originating the active pprocess of taking that." In other words, it depends on the perception of the one taking the action. If we sleep-walk or day-dream and take something not belonging to us, it doesn't mean there's any stealing involved, regardless of what the police might say. Like in killing, there are five factors involved: a) the object is in another's possession b) the one taking the object is aware of a) c) there is knowledge of stealing d) an effort to steal is made e) the object is taken As with killing, there are different degrees of 'blame' depending on various factors such as intention, size and so on. We also read in Dispeller (Sammohavinodani, PTS, Training Precepts p121)*: "Taking of what is not given, belonging to one of bad conduct, is less to blame; more than that, that belonging to one of cattle-like virtue; more than that, that belonging to one who has gone for refuge.....to one who keeps the five precepts of training.....to a novice....to an ordinary bhikkhu....to as Stream Enterer.....to a Once Returner.... to a Non-Returner... [taking what is not given] belonging to one whose cankers are destroyed is far more to blame than that." Metta, Sarah *Nina wrote recently about 'blame' in this context: >N: blamelessness is another word for purity of citta, or faultlessness. Anavajja, blame-worthy, avajja, is the opposite. Inferior or faulty. I also read in some texts: to be blamed by the wise. There is no need to think of a situation of persons who blame someone else. Akusala kamma are blame-worthy. That is a fixed order of Dhamma, it is in the nature of akusala kamma to be faulty or blameworthy. Some akusala kamma are mahaa-saavajja: very blameworthy. In Dispeller of Delusion ( II p. 120) different gradations of blamefulness are explained. Killing of an arahat is more to blame than the killing of others, etc. Drinking a small measure of liquor is less to blame, is more to blame. Drinking which causes bodily unsteadiness in one who destroys a villlage or town is much more to blame. When someone harms others they will blame him. When someone harms himself by akusala kamma even when others do not know, that kamma can bring an unpleasant result. < ======== 34111 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: What is right view ? How right view ? Hi Bill (& Nori), Welcome to DSG! I meant to include you in my last letter on 'Killing'. I hope it's of interest to you. Like the others who responded, I enjoyed your comments to Nori and Nori, it's great to see you around again and thanks for sharing your experiences and reflections. --- Bill Saint-Onge wrote: >Somewhere > there is a balance point between 'self'-discovery and following the > guidance of a teacher who has been there before. .... S: Yes, and particularly the guidance of the Buddha in this context, I think. ... > > But since we are 'pet-peeving' here :) I'll add mine as well: where is > the conversation on any of these sites regarding the practice of > morality in our daily lives? .... S: You may also like to look in 'Useful Posts' for other topics and follow the threads. Examples that quickly come to mind are: 'Killing', 'Drinking Alcohol, Drugs', 'Sexual Misconduct', 'Sila', 'Judging others', 'Livelihood', 'Sotapanna'.....lots more. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts .... >Could > it be that we are for some reason reluctant to talk about morality > because it's at that point where morality and ethics intersect our > worldy life that the rubber of practice really hits the road of > practical living: ... S: Your comments remind me of another friend, ERIC, who'd use this peertinent expression too. I agree that our lives should be more and more like open books as wisdom develops, even though it's only a sotapanna who will always abstain from breaking the precepts under any circumstances. I think we're all eagerly waiting to discuss any angle on morality and ethics that you'd like to pursue. No reluctance here;-)*. Hope to hear more from you and more about your interest in the Dhamma and this or other topics. Where do you live? Metta, Sarah * Recent comment from Nina which I liked: N: "We should not try to separate mindfulness of dhammas and daily life." ======= 34112 From: Philip Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:56am Subject: decisive support condition? The following is from Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Right View Sutta. (Sammaditthi Sutta) "Among these, greed is itself unwholesome in the sense that it is blameworthy and has painful results; and it is a root of these unwholesome (deeds) beginning with killing living beings, for some in the sense that it is an associated originative cause, for some in the sense that it is a decisive support condition." I have seen these expressions "associated originative cause" and "decisive support condition." I can't get around to Nina's book on conditions quite yet, so in the meantime could someone help me to understand the difference between them? Thanks in advance Metta, Phil 34113 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Typos Hi Chris: With full respect to all Arahats, Buddhas, Boddhisattas ,devas, devakis, gandharvas,bhikkhus, bhikkhunis, Acharyas, Siddhas, uppajayas, Samanas,etc, in all sectors and quadrants... HAUHAUAHUAHUAHUAHUAHAUHAUHUAHAU!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > "A panda walks into a cafe. He orders a sandwich, eats it, then > draws a gun and fires two shots in the air. > > "Why?" asks the confused waiter, as the panda makes towards the > exit. The panda produces a badly punctuated wildlife manual and > tosses it over his shoulder. > > "I'm a panda," he says, at the door. "Look it up." > > The waiter turns to the relevant entry and, sure enough, finds an > explanation. > > "PANDA. Large black-and-white bear-like mammal, native to China. > Eats, shoots and leaves." ---------------------------------------------------------------------- This Panda certainly never ate Capt. Crunch Oats and cereals...it reminded also an episode of Dudley Do-Right Cartoon, where a bear were putting fire on all Northern canada woods: Dudley discovered tthat the criminal were the own Smokey Bear, symbol of all american wood firewatchers, due to an improvable pun or typo on English language matters!!! Ah, Chris.. I finally managed to win the Australian Scenario of the Reailroad Tycoon!!!! I begun linking on Darwin, Tennant Creek and Alice Springs...thanks to Buddha there were bauxite ores at Alice Springs and Alluminium facilites at Darwin and tennant Creek and I made lots of profits on cargo...after I send my track headlong to barcaldine, Rockampton and finally Brisbane!!!!!!! Simple !!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34114 From: agriosinski Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 6:08am Subject: Naming (was Re: Rupas for beginners) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: [...] > ===== > > > I will replace all this chaos and confusion and that will be it. > > ===== > > Oops, there is no "I" in control to do any replacing. > > ===== Hi Rob, I am a little bit dyslectic. Should be: It (sati -> panna?) will replace this chaos and confusion.. [...] > Because objects are defined in terms of the sense door at which they > arise, they do not exist when the sense door is not active. There has > been debate on DSG as to whether rupa exists independent of the > senses, with Howard taking the phenomenological view that they do not > exist. This is the old, "If a tree falls in a forest but there is > none to hear it, does the sound exist?" question. > > Agrios, I hope that my answer has not confused you. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) Thanks Rob, I am getting a picture here of the whole situation. Seems like this thinking I am so used to is really nothing else but one more sense addiction and leads me only to enforce mirage of self. First time there is understanding of mind as one of the senses. There is strong curiosity of whats outside of it. Just another drag pulling back into sensual plays I guess. Probably its a movement in the wrong direction. Maybe I just sit still. :) metta, Agrios 34115 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 22, 2004 10:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Hi Larry, op 22-06-2004 01:09 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > > What does it mean when a resultant consciousness is kusala (profitable)? > Does it mean only that the consciousness that caused it was kusala? N: For wholesome resultant we should always add: kusala vipaka, not just kusala. It merely means that it is produced by kusala kamma. There are four jaatis of citta: kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya. Kusala vipaka and akusala vipaka are one jati, because they are merely results. L: Does > seeing consciousness see accurately regardless of whether it is kusala > or akusala? N: Again, we have to add vipaka to kusala and akusala. Otherwise people think that they are active kusala and akusala. Seeing accurately: this has to do with the faculty of eyesense, which is rupa produced by kamma. Remember: it can be quick or slow, that is, people's eyesights are different. Due to kamma. L: How does one tell the two apart? Is kusala and akusala only > meaningful in javana? N: Yes. Only javana cittas are kusala or akusala. Seeing that is kusala vipaka or that is akusala vipaka arise and fall away so fast. When we start to think about what was seen, the moments of seeing have fallen away. It is not important to find out, our reactions are more important: is there wise attention or unwise attention to the object? When we think and wonder about vipaka we may be inclined to take our experiences for my vipaka. This happens when we think of situations, events, people, but we should remember that there is no we, only citta, cetasika and rupa. There is not my vipaka. Rebirth-consciousness is the first vipaka in life to be followed by bhavangacittas that are also vipaka. Why do we not die yet? There is kamma condition that causes us to receive different vipakas through the senses. We react with like and dislike but these are different cittas, not us. Nina. 34116 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:28am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 3 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 3 The objects of mindfulness grouped as the four Applications of Mindfulness are of infinite value and a source of inspiration, reminding us of dhamma appearing in daily life. Often we are forgetful of nåma and rúpa, we are absorbed in concepts of people and events. However, all the sections of the ³Satipatthånasutta² can bring us back to nåma and rúpa as they appear one at a time through the six doorways. Here we can see the power of the Buddha's teachings. In the first Application, Mindfulness of the Body, all the aspects of the body that are explained here serve as a means of being non-forgetful of rúpas. Mindfulness of the Body begins with Mindfulness of Breathing. One may wonder whether this does not indicate that it is necessary to develop first samatha with this subject. Those who have accumulations for samatha can develop Mindfulness of Breathing up to the stage of jhåna, but, in order to reach the goal, they must also develop insight when they have emerged from jhåna. They should penetrate with insight the jhåna-factors and the jhånacittas lest they take these for self. The whole ³Satipatthånasutta² deals with insight. Breath is actually rúpa conditioned by citta. We cling to breath, we cannot live without it, and we take it for granted that we are breathing day in day out. When we are breathing, rúpas may appear that are tangible object: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion and pressure. We are usually forgetful of nåma and rúpa, but the subject of Mindfulness of Breath can bring us back to realities appearing at this very moment. We read in the Commentary to the ³Satipatthånasutta² (Middle Length Sayings I, 10) 1 in which ways one should contemplate ³the Body in the Body². We read: ³The bhikkhu sees, the body in the body, (1) as something impermanent; (2) as something subject to suffering; (3) as something that is soulless; (4) by way of turning away from it and not by way of delighting in it; (5) by freeing himself of passion for it; (6) with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination; (7) and not by way of laying hold of it, but by way of giving it up.² This refers to the deveopment of the different stages of insight. The three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anattå are penetrated and in the course of the development of insight one can become detached from realities. We read, ³with thoughts making for cessation and not making for origination², and this refers to freedom of the cycle of birth and death. Footnote: 1. I am using the translation of the Satipatthånasutta and Commentary by Ven. Soma, with the title: The Way of Mindfulness. B.P.S. Kandy, Sri Lanka. ***** Nina 34117 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dustrags and blessed typo. Hello Philip, Never mind. In the Suttas many similes are used, and what is helpful for one person may not be helpful for another person. This is just a simile. It makes me think of the excellence of the arahats. The Jeta Grove is very peaceful, there were many arahats there who listened to the Buddha. There are excavations of the places where the (a place for the monk) were. We always have Dhamma talks near the kuti of the Buddha. There are many beautiful similes in the suttas. We do not think of paramattha dhammas all day. We poor worldlings should grab anything that can help us. Your typo: oh blessed mistake, well said, well said! If we are sincere, we are at times afraid or have aversion towards the akusala that appears. At first we are afraid, we do not want akusala, and then we see that it is a useful reminder, that it is a worthy object of awareness. We still have it, it is not eradicated, why deny it or ignore it? Panna should go through all such moments also the moments of aversion towards akusala. Nina. op 23-06-2004 02:49 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > It just seemed to me that the whole simile of the dustrag is > unnecessarily complicated. 34118 From: christine_forsyth Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Typos Hello Icaro, I'm glad you won the game!! (though I still can't see how you could go from Tennant Creek in the Northern Territory to Barcaldine in Queensland unless you went all the way round the bottom of Australia and up the East Coast.) But, never mind - you won!! Yaasyy! And ..... speaking of Smokey the Bear reminds me that the saga of "Where's Icaro? - the Canadian Mystery' continues. :-) metta, Chris --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" > This Panda certainly never ate Capt. Crunch Oats and cereals...it > reminded also an episode of Dudley Do-Right Cartoon, where a bear > were putting fire on all Northern canada woods: Dudley discovered > tthat the criminal were the own Smokey Bear, symbol of all american > wood firewatchers, due to an improvable pun or typo on English > language matters!!! > > Ah, Chris.. I finally managed to win the Australian Scenario of the > Reailroad Tycoon!!!! > > I begun linking on Darwin, Tennant Creek and Alice > Springs...thanks to Buddha there were bauxite ores at Alice Springs > and Alluminium facilites at Darwin and tennant Creek and I made lots > of profits on cargo...after I send my track headlong to barcaldine, > Rockampton and finally Brisbane!!!!!!! Simple !!!! > > > Mettaya, Ícaro 34119 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 1:58pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Dear Larry: > What does it mean when a resultant consciousness is kusala (profitable)? > Does it mean only that the consciousness that caused it was kusala? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The final words of The Dhammasangani are a statement of the fact that the bhumisu vipakaa are Kusala Dhamma,so you can imagine, at first approach, that its primer cause could be kusala also...but what's about the mean ? (The Fearless leader):What does Pottsylvania have more than any other country? Mean! We have more mean than any other country in Europe! We must export mean. Well... this would be profitable!!! Exporting mean to all consumers ( Mean!!! Mean!!! Mean!!!) can enrich anyone: Boris and Natasha had begun dealing with mean square roots, ale roots and thereafter pure mean were their real source of all profit!!! Just think about logic, for example: We have a meeting of two propositions, the Syllogism , linked by a mean term which desappears at the conclusion. You can get a formal logic reasoning without the mean - The Enthinemme, mentioned by Aristotle at his "Rethorics"- but it's more a trick than a tool for knowlegde. Formally all the mean is necessary!!! The Abhidhamma stipulates that the bhumisu ( possibly Kusala, who knows ?) Vipakaa are at the last end, as true and real expressions of Dhamma...but The role of the mean in all these process in relevant!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Does > seeing consciousness see accurately regardless of whether it is kusala > or akusala? How does one tell the two apart? Is kusala and akusala only > meaningful in javana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Such dichotomy can be solved only by the mean: mean path, mean terms on Syllogism or mean square roots, nevermind. Larry you need MEAN!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > > Larry 34120 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Typos Dear Chris: > I'm glad you won the game!! (though I still can't see how you could > go from Tennant Creek in the Northern Territory to Barcaldine in > Queensland unless you went all the way round the bottom of Australia > and up the East Coast.) But, never mind - you won!! Yaasyy! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Ah! There are other excellent games for PC: my favourite now is the "Lemonade Tycoon"!!! I'll become rich selling fresh juice at Northern Canada!!!HAHAHAHAHAH!!!! But it's autumn in Australia and springtime at the Northern canada...The Cayuga river's banks covered by marigolds and the breeze whispering promises through the pines... --------------------------------------------------------------------- > And ..... speaking of Smokey the Bear reminds me that the saga > of "Where's Icaro? - the Canadian Mystery' continues. :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Not a mistery at all!!! I am watching "Dudley Do-Right" episodes on Boomerang TV Channel...the obnoxious, bastard villain Snidely Whiplash (performed by Larry Sabu) will be fooled again by dudley Do-right and the good RCMP Mounties ( Eyes of blue and hearts of True)!!! HAHAHAHAHAAH!!!! Mettaya, ícaro > > > metta, > Chris > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" > > This Panda certainly never ate Capt. Crunch Oats and > cereals...it > > reminded also an episode of Dudley Do-Right Cartoon, where a bear > > were putting fire on all Northern canada woods: Dudley discovered > > tthat the criminal were the own Smokey Bear, symbol of all > american > > wood firewatchers, due to an improvable pun or typo on English > > language matters!!! > > > > Ah, Chris.. I finally managed to win the Australian Scenario of > the > > Reailroad Tycoon!!!! > > > > I begun linking on Darwin, Tennant Creek and Alice > > Springs...thanks to Buddha there were bauxite ores at Alice > Springs > > and Alluminium facilites at Darwin and tennant Creek and I made > lots > > of profits on cargo...after I send my track headlong to > barcaldine, > > Rockampton and finally Brisbane!!!!!!! Simple !!!! > > > > > > Mettaya, Ícaro 34121 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 2:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Typos: > The Abhidhamma stipulates that the bhumisu ( possibly Kusala, > who knows ?) Vipakaa are at the last end, as true and real > expressions of Dhamma...but The role of the mean in all these >process > in relevant!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- It's "Vipakaa are at the last end the true and real expressions of Dhamma...but The role of the mean in all these process is relevant!!!" there it is!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34122 From: Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Hi Icaro, Meaning is only this --> = Larry 34123 From: Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 3:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Hi Nina, Thanks for clarifying kusala vipaka. I read a little ahead and see that there will be further discussion on this. I know you are working on the rest of the commentary. I would like more info on joy, equanimity, and knowledge. Also is this the place to list all the kusala cetasikas and discuss what is meant by "beautiful"? Larry 34124 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 4:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 > Hi Icaro, > > Meaning is only this --> = ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I would say better => or <=! You see, from Fermat to Bertrand Russell, Mean is a measure between two extremes: the = signal is only a "special" or restrictive case of all mean one can assign at one set. Mean!!! The golden keyword to all good phiolosophy!!!! Larry, exporting Mean will make you rich!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34125 From: Philip Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:07pm Subject: Transference of merit? Hello all Only time for a quick question today. In the list of 10 meritous deeds, I see "transference of merit." I googled the term but came up with metaphysical-ish topics related to Pure Land Buddhism. What is this "transference of merit" and how might it arise in our daily life? Thanks in advance. Metta, Phil 34126 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 5:59pm Subject: ¦^ÂСGRe: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re: Liberated in bothways(was, ¦^ÂСG?^???G...) Dear jon Thanks a lot for correcting my description of the understanding of Ubhatobhagavimutta given in commentaries. > I mention this because your > definitionof 'an arahant who has attained (any one of ) the > formless attainemnt is > called an ubhatobhagavimutta' may need to be tightened up a > little. > Grateful for any observations you may have from your readings of the > texts. According to the definition of Ubhatobhagavimutta in commentaries, perhaps those ariyas who attain the formless attainments only after their achievement of arahantship could also be called as ¡¥liberated in both ways¡¦ Sv vol. 2 p.104; vol. 3 p.72: Ubhatobhaagavimuttoti dviihi bhaagehi vimutto, aruupasamaapattiyaa ruupakaayato vimutto, maggena naamakaayato vimuttoti. ¡¥Ubhatobhaagavimutto¡¦ is ¡¥one liberated from two parts¡¦, one liberated from both the assembly of body by formless attainments and the assembly of mind by the [consciousness of] Path. In Sv-pt vol. 3 p. 72, three definitions are given: 1. Samaapattiyaa vikkhambhanavimokkhena, maggena samucchedavimokkhena vimuttattaa ubhatobhaagavimutto 2. Naamakaayato, ruupakaayato ca vimuttattaa ubhatobhaagavimutto 3. samaapattiyaa vikhambhanavimokkhena ekavaaram. Vimuttova maggena samucchedavimokkhena ekavaaram vimuttattaa ubhatobhaagavimutto 1. Because one is liberated in the form of both the liberation of ¡¥oppression by [formless] attainments¡¦ and the liberation of ¡¥abolishment by the Path¡¦, he is one liberated in both ways. ¡K 2. Because one is liberated from the assembly of body and mind, he is one liberated in both ways. ¡K 3. Because one is on one occasion liberated in the form of the liberation of oppression by [formless] attainments ,and on another occasion liberated in the form of the liberation of abolishment by the Path, he is one liberated in both ways. Nevertheless, it's true that the commentaries mention clearly only 5 types of Ubhatobhagavimutta. Metta Tzungkuen May you be free from mental and physical suffering May you be peaceful and happy. 34127 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:07pm Subject: Re: decisive support condition? Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > The following is from Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Right View > Sutta. (Sammaditthi Sutta) > > > "Among these, greed is itself unwholesome in the sense that it is > blameworthy and has painful results; and it is a root of these > unwholesome (deeds) beginning with killing living beings, for some in > the sense that it is an associated originative cause, for some in the > sense that it is a decisive support condition." > > I have seen these expressions "associated originative cause" > and "decisive support condition." I can't get around to Nina's book > on conditions quite yet, so in the meantime could someone help me to > understand the difference between them? Natural Decisive Support Condition (pakatupanissaya) is one of my favourite topics. The best way to understand how this condition functions is to define the conditioned states (the things that get impacted when this condition is operative)and the conditioning states (the things that "trigger" this condition to be operative). For pakatupanissaya, the conditioned state (what gets impacted) is the current mental state (citta + cetasikas). In other words, pakatupanissaya impacts the current mental state. I will give some specific examples later. For pakatupanissaya, the conditioning states (triggers) are: - Strong past mental states (citta + cetasikas) - Strong past rupa - Strong past concepts "Past" can mean during this life and during past lives as well. The things that make something "strong" are: - Happened frequently and repeatedly in the past (A habit of greed impacts my current mental state) - Happened recently (I just saw my kid's messy room and this impacts my current mental state) - A single very strong event (Sumeda the Hermit made a solemn vow to become a future Buddha and this vow impacted his mental states for countless lifetimes) We can contracts between greed that is "rising up" and greed that is "latent". Greed that is "rising up" is present as a cetasika in the current mental state. It arises in all lobha-mula mental states. In lobha- mula mental states, greed is an "associated originative cause". Greed that is "latent" exists as a latent defilement (anusaya). This type of "latent" greed exists all the time (until one becomes an Arahant). Latent greed exists and lies along with the onging mental processes all the time waiting for conditions to be conducive for the latent greed to influence the current mental state. In this way, greed works through natural decisive support condition. Hope that this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) 34128 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:15pm Subject: Re: Transference of merit? Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > In the list of 10 meritous deeds, I see "transference of merit." > I googled the term but came up with metaphysical-ish topics related > to Pure Land Buddhism. > What is this "transference of merit" and how might it arise in > our daily life? I suggest that rather than googling, you first check the Useful Posts (here are the list of messages on this subject from Useful Posts: 5313, 10722, 23463, 26838, 26923, 26951, 26985, 26943). I could write a blurb on this subject, but it is probably already covered by these posts. Let me know if you need more information. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: If you need more info on Natural Decisive Support Condition (my previous post), you can check through Escribe; I've written about it a few times. 34129 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 6:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Transference of merit? Hi Rob M, Phil and everyone, I had a quick look at the useful posts you mention, and foresee a can of worms being opened if we proceed. Are we interested in a can of worms at this time :-) ? (Esp with regards to 26943.) No probs if you decide either way. Herman -----Original Message----- From: robmoult [mailto:rob.moult@j...] Sent: Thursday, 24 June 2004 11:16 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Transference of merit? Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > In the list of 10 meritous deeds, I see "transference of merit." > I googled the term but came up with metaphysical-ish topics related > to Pure Land Buddhism. > What is this "transference of merit" and how might it arise in > our daily life? I suggest that rather than googling, you first check the Useful Posts (here are the list of messages on this subject from Useful Posts: 5313, 10722, 23463, 26838, 26923, 26951, 26985, 26943). I could write a blurb on this subject, but it is probably already covered by these posts. Let me know if you need more information. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: If you need more info on Natural Decisive Support Condition (my previous post), you can check through Escribe; I've written about it a few times. 34130 From: Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:00pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Hi Icaro, The mean between extremes is empty. Larry 34131 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Transference of merit? Hi Herman, I would love to discuss further :-) Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Rob M, Phil and everyone, > > I had a quick look at the useful posts you mention, and foresee a can of > worms being opened if we proceed. Are we interested in a can of worms at > this time :-) ? > > (Esp with regards to 26943.) > > No probs if you decide either way. > > Herman > > > -----Original Message----- > From: robmoult [mailto:rob.moult@j...] > Sent: Thursday, 24 June 2004 11:16 AM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: Transference of merit? > > Hi Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > In the list of 10 meritous deeds, I see "transference of > merit." > > I googled the term but came up with metaphysical-ish topics related > > to Pure Land Buddhism. > > What is this "transference of merit" and how might it arise in > > our daily life? > > I suggest that rather than googling, you first check the Useful Posts > (here are the list of messages on this subject from Useful Posts: > 5313, 10722, 23463, 26838, 26923, 26951, 26985, 26943). > > I could write a blurb on this subject, but it is probably already > covered by these posts. Let me know if you need more information. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > PS: If you need more info on Natural Decisive Support Condition (my > previous post), you can check through Escribe; I've written about it > a few times. > 34132 From: Egbert Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:25pm Subject: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Rob M, I have reposted the last section of your post #26943. I do not see that you have answered the question posed below. It sounds like the transfer of merit requires that there are beings that are real, substantive and persistent. Out of curiousity, can I transfer the opposite of merit as well, and bump beings down a notch or two? If not, why not? I am reminded of "Hail Mary ... " Off to lunch I go Herman > > > I wonder how we can really share merit with someone who is dead? > If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing with??? > > > > Someone who "is dead" now exists in another form; could be a hell- > being, could be human, could be as an animal, could be as a Deva or > could be as a "hungry ghost" (peta). Some devas and a certain type > of peta (mentioned above) can sense our thoughts. If I do something > good and think of dedicating the accrued merit to a departed person, > then if (and only if) that person has been reborn as the certain > type of peta, then the peta will be aware of my intention and > rejoice in my merit (pattanumodana). This is a wholesome state that > can act as a condition for the peta to be reborn in a happier state. > > Note that you still get the good kammic result from the good deed, > even if you do not share the merit. Note also that you still get the > good kammic result from sharing of merit, even if the departed > relative is unable to receive it. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 34133 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 8:02pm Subject: Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Egbert" wrote: > I have reposted the last section of your post #26943. > > I do not see that you have answered the question posed below. It > sounds like the transfer of merit requires that there are beings > that are real, substantive and persistent. > > Out of curiousity, can I transfer the opposite of merit as well, and > bump beings down a notch or two? If not, why not? > > > > > I wonder how we can really share merit with someone who is > dead? > > If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing > with??? > > > > > > > Someone who "is dead" now exists in another form; could be a hell- > > being, could be human, could be as an animal, could be as a Deva > or > > could be as a "hungry ghost" (peta). Some devas and a certain type > > of peta (mentioned above) can sense our thoughts. If I do > something > > good and think of dedicating the accrued merit to a departed > person, > > then if (and only if) that person has been reborn as the certain > > type of peta, then the peta will be aware of my intention and > > rejoice in my merit (pattanumodana). This is a wholesome state > that > > can act as a condition for the peta to be reborn in a happier > state. > > > > Note that you still get the good kammic result from the good deed, > > even if you do not share the merit. Note also that you still get > the > > good kammic result from sharing of merit, even if the departed > > relative is unable to receive it. ===== As a recap, the questions are, "How we can really share merit with someone who is dead? If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing with?" We share by having positive thoughts in our own mind; this works because certain beings can sense our thoughts, Death only ends the existence of the body. The kammic stream has a new body (except in the arupa-loka realms) but maintains the same kamma and accumulations. Because of these accumulations, the new being still has a kammic affinity to past beings (i.e. relatives) through natural decisive support condition. To give an example, Yasodara was the wife of the Buddha in multiple previous lifetimes. As another example, in many Jataka tales, we come across prior births of Devadatta, Sariputta, Ananda, etc. Herman, I assume that you are married. When you met your wife, did you not sense that there was something different about her (i.e. your initial natural reaction to her was different from other people's initial reaction to her and different from your initial reaction to other women). This "love at first sight" is kammic affinity at work. I go into this discussion to show that beings carry with them kammic affinity through rebirth. If a being is reborn in a non-human form (deva, peta, etc.), then they still have this kammic affinity and will continue to associate themselves with people & places that they knew before. This is why petas who used to be your relatives tend to continue to hang around you and are ready to read your mental state when you direct your thoughts to them. The concept of sensing mental states can be illustrated from our own experience. When you see a photo of the Dali Lama, can you not sense the mental states of compassion? When your wife is angry with you, can you not sense it without the need for words? It is therefore not unreasonable that petas can sense your mental state (this is not the same as reading your thoughts) and can benefit from it. I suspect that petas are also able to sense unwholesome mental states, but this does not "send them down" as their existence is already quite miserable. The opportunity for them to sense your positive mental state is one of the few positive experiences available to these petas and a positive experience provides an opportunity for positive rebirth. Does this answer? Metta, Rob M :-) 34134 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 7:43pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Transfer of Merit Hi Rob M, Regarding your comments below related to sharing of merit, etc., they are interesting. May I ask what tradition this is from, and the basis in the suttas for it? Respectfully, Bill > > I wonder how we can really share merit with someone who is dead? > If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing with??? > > > > Someone who "is dead" now exists in another form; could be a hell- > being, could be human, could be as an animal, could be as a Deva or > could be as a "hungry ghost" (peta). Some devas and a certain type > of peta (mentioned above) can sense our thoughts. If I do something > good and think of dedicating the accrued merit to a departed person, > then if (and only if) that person has been reborn as the certain > type of peta, then the peta will be aware of my intention and > rejoice in my merit (pattanumodana). This is a wholesome state that > can act as a condition for the peta to be reborn in a happier state. > > Note that you still get the good kammic result from the good deed, > even if you do not share the merit. Note also that you still get the > good kammic result from sharing of merit, even if the departed > relative is unable to receive it. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 34135 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Complication (was Re: Dustrags) Dear Sarah, lovely reminders about conceit while you were on the beach, so human. I also liked the sutta quotes. Do you know, in the Abh. Human types, puggala pa~n~natti, we also find similer texts about people not staying angry for long. Do you have it? If not I shall try giving you a flavour of it. Nina. op 23-06-2004 10:05 schreef sarah abbott op sarahdhhk@y...: .... > S: I don't read these examples (eg dustrag metaphor) as being an > encouragement to think conceptually or complicate' 34136 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 9:42pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Rob, I find this interesting, but also very speculative. It seems, then, that there is a foundation for Catholics to pray to Mary and the saints to intercede for the souls of the dead? As to whether your reply answered the question, I think it is fair to say that the can of worms is just starting to open :-) Surely we also share negative thoughts? I'll wait to see what your answer to Bill is before I take it any further. Thanks Herman ============================================== As a recap, the questions are, "How we can really share merit with someone who is dead? If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing with?" We share by having positive thoughts in our own mind; this works because certain beings can sense our thoughts, Death only ends the existence of the body. The kammic stream has a new body (except in the arupa-loka realms) but maintains the same kamma and accumulations. Because of these accumulations, the new being still has a kammic affinity to past beings (i.e. relatives) through natural decisive support condition. To give an example, Yasodara was the wife of the Buddha in multiple previous lifetimes. As another example, in many Jataka tales, we come across prior births of Devadatta, Sariputta, Ananda, etc. Herman, I assume that you are married. When you met your wife, did you not sense that there was something different about her (i.e. your initial natural reaction to her was different from other people's initial reaction to her and different from your initial reaction to other women). This "love at first sight" is kammic affinity at work. I go into this discussion to show that beings carry with them kammic affinity through rebirth. If a being is reborn in a non-human form (deva, peta, etc.), then they still have this kammic affinity and will continue to associate themselves with people & places that they knew before. This is why petas who used to be your relatives tend to continue to hang around you and are ready to read your mental state when you direct your thoughts to them. The concept of sensing mental states can be illustrated from our own experience. When you see a photo of the Dali Lama, can you not sense the mental states of compassion? When your wife is angry with you, can you not sense it without the need for words? It is therefore not unreasonable that petas can sense your mental state (this is not the same as reading your thoughts) and can benefit from it. I suspect that petas are also able to sense unwholesome mental states, but this does not "send them down" as their existence is already quite miserable. The opportunity for them to sense your positive mental state is one of the few positive experiences available to these petas and a positive experience provides an opportunity for positive rebirth. Does this answer? Metta, Rob M :-) 34137 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Transfer of Merit Hi Bill, They are from the Theravada tradition. One can find many Sutta references ("petas" are often translated as "shades" or "ghosts") but the details (especially of transfer of merit) can be found in the Petavatthu, part of the Khuddaka Nikaya of the Suttanta Pitaka. Some Sutta references to ghosts include DN32.5, Mn 12.36, Mn 12.39, Mn 97.30, Mn130.2, An IV.123, An VI.39 among others. One will also find a section on the benefits of giving to petas in the Milinda panha. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bill Saint-Onge > Regarding your comments below related to sharing of merit, etc., they are interesting. May I ask what tradition this is from, and the basis in the suttas for it? > > > I wonder how we can really share merit with someone who is > dead? > > If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing > with??? > > > > > > > Someone who "is dead" now exists in another form; could be a hell- > > being, could be human, could be as an animal, could be as a Deva > or > > could be as a "hungry ghost" (peta). Some devas and a certain type > > of peta (mentioned above) can sense our thoughts. If I do > something > > good and think of dedicating the accrued merit to a departed > person, > > then if (and only if) that person has been reborn as the certain > > type of peta, then the peta will be aware of my intention and > > rejoice in my merit (pattanumodana). This is a wholesome state > that > > can act as a condition for the peta to be reborn in a happier > state. > > > > Note that you still get the good kammic result from the good deed, > > even if you do not share the merit. Note also that you still get > the > > good kammic result from sharing of merit, even if the departed > > relative is unable to receive it. > > > > Metta, > > Rob M :-) 34138 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 10:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I find this interesting, but also very speculative. ===== I agree on both points. ===== > It seems, then, that > there is a foundation for Catholics to pray to Mary and the saints to > intercede for the souls of the dead? ===== Interesting parallel. However, in this case, we are the ones doing the interceding and we are not saints. In addition, we are not doing so because we are requested to do so, but rather that we are motivated ourselves to perform this practice. Finally, the recipients are not "dead", they are spending time as ghosts before their next rebirth. ===== > Surely we also share negative thoughts? ===== I included the following below to indicate that I believe that petas can sense our negative thoughts, but that since they have such a miserable existence, it doesn't impact them much... > I suspect that petas are also able to sense unwholesome mental > states, but this does not "send them down" as their existence is > already quite miserable. The opportunity for them to sense your > positive mental state is one of the few positive experiences > available to these petas and a positive experience provides an > opportunity for positive rebirth. Metta, Rob M :-) 34139 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 23, 2004 11:26pm Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (8) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Jhaana and the Attainment of Stream-entry (6) From the omission of a class of disciples training for stream-entry who also enjoy the experience of the formless meditations, one might suppose that disciples below the level of stream-entry cannot gain access to the formless attainments. This supposition is not tenable, however, for the texts show that many of tthe ascetics and contemplatives in the Buddha's day (including his two teachers before his enlightenment) were familiar with the jhaanas and formless attainments. Since these attainments are not dependent on the insight made uniquely available through the Buddha's teaching, the omission of such a class of jhaana-attainers among those on the way to stream-entry must be explained in some other way than by the supposition that such a class does not exist. I would propose that while disciples prior to stream-entry may or may not possess the formless attainments, skill in this area does not determine a distinct type because powerful concentration is not a governing factor in the attainment of stream-entry. The way to stream-entry certainly requires a degree of concentration sufficient for the "eye of the Dhamma" to arise, but the actual movement from the stage of a worldling to that of a path-attainer is driven by either strong conviction or a probing spirit of inquiry, which respectively determine whether the aspirant is to become a faith-follower or a Dhamma-follower. Once, however, the path has been gained, then one's degree of accomplishment in concentration determines one's future mode of progress. If one gains the formless attainments one takes the route of the body-witness, culminating in release as a both-ways-liberated arahant. If one does not attain them, one takes the route of the view-attainer or faith-liberated trainee, culminating in release as a wisdom-liberated arahant. Since these distinctions relate only to the formless attainments and make no mention of the jhaanas, it is reasonable to suppose that types (ii), (iv-v), and (vi-vii) may have possession of the form-sphere jhaanas. But by making faith and wisdom the key factors in gaining the initial access to the path, this scheme leaves open the possibility that some stream-enterers, and perhaps those at still higher levels, may not have gained these jhaanas at all. 34140 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 0:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > This is very interesting. How old is this Co, how did you get it. Is it > in > Burmese and then translated into English? > I paid respect at that place and will again in Oct. ... S: Buddhaghosuppatti, ed and transl by James Gray, PTS (2001) A very slim volume but also includes the Pali. The translator suggests the 13th century. Sinhalese author, Mahamangala, but not known in Ceylon, so possibly written in Pagan. He may have died before bringing it to Ceylon. In ch7 there is the well-known description of the burning of the Sinhalese texts 'written by Mahinda' and 'equal in height to seven elephants of middle size'. Mahamangala says he is writing 'yathabhutam' (according to reality). It may just be referrring to the particular set Buddhaghosa had been using prior to his departure for India. A long intro - I haven't read it all. Metta, Sarah ===== 34141 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:09am Subject: Re: ???Re: [dsg] oral tradition Dear Tzung Kuen & Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > N: The Saravastivada version is not Theravada. But I find it very > complicated to go into these differerences with other schools which are > not > Theravada. .... S: Tzung Kuen, do you have access to the Katthavatthu and commentary? In the Katthavatthu (Points of Controversy), there are some very interesting discussions/debates which highlight some of the views held by the Saravastivadans (here, the Pali-'Sabbatthivaadins') and other 'sects' which are naturally refuted. I think they lead to implications about reasons for variations in Abhidhamma texts in particular. Briefly: 1:2 Certain sects inc. Sabbatthivaadins 'incline to the belief that an Arahant can fall away', based on suttas such as ANi:96 1:6 Sabbatthivaadins hold the opinion that 'all phenomena, past, present, future [once they arise among the aggregate constituents of personal life and experience] persist in that state, and that therefore all go on existing.] Sarvaasthivaadins - lit. 'everything-exists-believers'. This is based on their interpretation of sutta passages such as 'whatever is material quality, past, present, future'. 11:9 Sects inc. Sabbatthivaadins have the opinion that 'in realizing the Four Paths, the corruptions were put away by so many slices as each of the Four Truths was intuited'. In other words, reading suttas such as Sn, v962 : 'Little by little, one by one, as pass The moments, gradually let the wise' etc They take these to suggest attainment in segments. X1:6 The Sabbatthivaadins and Uttaraapathakas hold that 'the continuity of consciousness (citta-santati) is concentration of mind (samaadhi).They don't accept that concentration is 'confined to a momentary conscious unit'. I think there are also implications in this section for your discussion with Swee Boon on the 'attainment of cessation', but I haven't considered it enough to add more. I'd be very interested in your comments, though I'm going to have to wind-down here as we're going away next week and lots to do before that. .... N: > Before I went into the Susima sutta and we had lots of debates, but now > I > get too busy with my texts and just want to leave it. ... S: Just look under Susima sutta and Sukkha vipassaka for Nina's and other letters. .... N: > As I said to Sarah, I find the Puggala Pa~n~natti of the Abhidhamma > quite > clear on sukkha vipassaka. Also the Commentaries, it is often mentioned. > And > in the Visuddhimagga. .... S: As you say, I don't find any conflicts in these texts. Usually, all other ideas, such as those above (esp the one in 1:6, are based, as we read in the Brahmajala Sutta, on an idea of self or permanence creeping in. .... N:> T.Kuen: I like your translation of Vism-mht very much, but I only got > two > posts about > > them one or two days ago. Where to get the old posts on Vism-mht ? ... S: Many can be found in U.P., but under different headings such as 'heart-base' or 'space'. Most the early ones are there under 'Visuddhimagga'. Also you can find the Pali and Pali-English in the files. To read Nina's translations on the Tiika in order, you'd need to start in the archives at link below for Larry's first post, scroll down to her posts and open ones which have the Vism, Tiika headings, following the numbers. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/23597 It started off with Jim and others contributing and only developed a little later into a format of Larry giving the extract and then Nina adding the Tiika and comments. You'll see. (Usually, I'd be suggesting you just key 'Visuddhimagga' in on escribe and following messages you're interested in from this date (24th July 03) as it's much easier to scroll down. Unfortunately it's still in break-down mode, but it may be helpful later). Metta, Sarah ======== 34142 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:33am Subject: Letter from Ven Bodhi Bhikkhu Bodhi wrote: Dear Sarah, Thanks for the interesting exchange of letter between Lance Cousins and Jim Anderson. I also read your letter on the DSG. True, we do owe a lot to the commentaries for our knowledge of early Buddhism, but to obtain an accurate understanding of early Buddhist history, we can't rest with what we learn from them. We have to put aside our faith in any particular tradition of Buddhism, Theravada or whatever, even suspend our faith in Buddhism itself, and try to determine, from various sources, with a high degree of probability as we can, what took place. In applying this approach, Western scholars can teach us much that we could never learn from the traditional commentaries. All these sources indicate, with hardly a trace of room for doubt, that the Abhidharma Pitakas that arose in the different Buddhist schools (and several schools had Abhidharma Pitakas, quite different from each other) were products of a long period of gradual development, the basic lines of which we can trace through comparative study of texts across different Buddhist traditions. This doesn't mean that the Abhidhamma should be rejected. I think it is an extremist attitude to pose the choice: either the Abhidhamma is literal Word of the Buddha, in which case it is invaluable, or later development, in which case it should be rejected. A wiser approach, more consonant with the spirit of Buddhism itself, is to see later generations as trying to explicate or "unfold" the implications of the original teachings and to explore their applications to different domains of understanding. The Abhidhamma was one way this took place against the background of contemporary developments in Indian thought. With metta, Bhikkhu Bodhi ***** S:> I did write another letter following your comments and a few others on DSG with regard to Prof Watanabe's points and your recent letters to me and trust there is nothing disrespectful in it: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33875 I shared the relevant extracts from your letters and I'm also in the process of sharing the article which you kindly sent us and Tzung-kuen Wen in daily installments on DSG. There is a lot of interest in it. Before posting the ariticle, I spent a little time, converted some confusing symbols appearing which you referred to.< 34143 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re Transfer of Merit Hello RobM, Herman, Bill, and all, Ven. Sayadaw U. Sumana wrote about Sharing of Merits: "Today, I would like to talk about sharing of merits. "Our ancestors hope for five things from their sons and daughters". The Buddha said so in the Pali text of the Anguttara Nikaya. What are the five? 1. Their sons and daughters will help them in every aspect. 2. They will carry out what must be done on behalf of their elders. 3. They will preserve the traditions practiced by their elders. 4. They will protect the inheritances left to them by their elders. 5. They will make offerings to the petas after their elders pass away. (from the book "Dhammaratana") " http://www.geocities.com/ekchew.geo/SharingofMerits.htm#One --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Bill, > > They are from the Theravada tradition. One can find many Sutta > references ("petas" are often translated as "shades" or "ghosts") but > the details (especially of transfer of merit) can be found in the > Petavatthu, part of the Khuddaka Nikaya of the Suttanta Pitaka. Some > Sutta references to ghosts include DN32.5, Mn 12.36, Mn 12.39, Mn > 97.30, Mn130.2, An IV.123, An VI.39 among others. > > One will also find a section on the benefits of giving to petas in > the Milinda panha. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bill Saint-Onge > Regarding > your comments below related to sharing of merit, etc., they are > interesting. May I ask what tradition this is from, and the basis in > the suttas for it? > > > > I wonder how we can really share merit with someone who is > > dead? > > > If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing > > with??? > > > > > > > > > > Someone who "is dead" now exists in another form; could be a hell- > > > being, could be human, could be as an animal, could be as a Deva > > or > > > could be as a "hungry ghost" (peta). Some devas and a certain > type > > > of peta (mentioned above) can sense our thoughts. If I do > > something > > > good and think of dedicating the accrued merit to a departed > > person, > > > then if (and only if) that person has been reborn as the certain > > > type of peta, then the peta will be aware of my intention and > > > rejoice in my merit (pattanumodana). This is a wholesome state > > that > > > can act as a condition for the peta to be reborn in a happier > > state. > > > > > > Note that you still get the good kammic result from the good > deed, > > > even if you do not share the merit. Note also that you still get > > the > > > good kammic result from sharing of merit, even if the departed > > > relative is unable to receive it. > > > > > > Metta, > > > Rob M :-) 34144 From: sarah abbott Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 1:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 2 Dear Nina, --- nina van gorkom wrote: > The 'Discourse on the Analysis of the Sixfold Sense-field' (Middle > Length > Sayings III, no 137) explains that the Buddha is untroubled, mindful > and > clearly conscious when disciples who listen to the Dhamma turn away, > when > some of them pay attention but others do not, or when they pay attention > to > his words. > It is said that disciples who are like the Tathågata in this way are > 'fit to > instruct a group', thus, fit to explain the Dhamma to others. ..... S: I just looked at the passage in the sutta. Great reminders. Reminds me of K.Sujin's example too. Must dash - washing machine repair man at the door! Metta, Sarah ===== > **** 34145 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Rob M, Just before I launch into the next phase of the discussion, could I ask you for your help? At which level of spiritual development is there no more rebirth? And is that the same as parinibbana? Thanks in advance Herman 34146 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Hi Larry! > The mean between extremes is empty. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Really ? When Boris and Natasha begun at Woosamotta University, they started dealing with Mean square Roots, and later that so called "Pure mean"! You see, when you get a sequence of even numbers, with an even quantity of members, the mean between extremes is an empty set, but not devoid of significance!!! And when you get a sequence of odd numbers, with an odd quantity of members, the Mean is never empty!!! So you can see how remarlable is Mean!!!! And the own Buddha had mean in great account!!! All Tipitaka Suttas have got mean between the first and last stanzas!!! Mean is very necessary to us all!!!!!! I see unto you, Larry: selling mean will make you a millionaire, floating at golden ponds of Perrier!!! Mean!!! Praised by Buddha and all great Illuminatii of every Woorld!!! Larry, you wants Mean!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34147 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 83 Typo: > members, the Mean is never empty!!! So you can see how remarlable >is > Mean!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- "Remarlable" can even be a kind of marmalade, but only Mean is so remarkable!!!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > > And the own Buddha had mean in great account!!! All Tipitaka Suttas > have got mean between the first and last stanzas!!! Mean is very > necessary to us all!!!!!! I see unto you, Larry: selling mean will > make you a millionaire, floating at golden ponds of Perrier!!! > > Mean!!! Praised by Buddha and all great Illuminatii of every > Woorld!!! > > Larry, you wants Mean!!!!!! > > Mettaya, Ícaro 34148 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 5:04am Subject: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Dear Herman: Respectfully butting in: > At which level of spiritual development is there no more rebirth? >And is > that the same as parinibbana? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - Technically speaking, after the adept passing through the stream - Sotapanni, Sakadagami and Anagami stages of spiritual existence - rebirth ends and one reaches the stage of Arahat. Siddartha Gautama only reached up Parinibbana after his death. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Thanks in advance --------------------------------------------------------------------- ... Mettaya, Ícaro 34149 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:38am Subject: Perseverance in Dhmma, Ch 6, no 4 Perseverance in Dhmma, Ch 6, no 4 We read in the ³Satipatthånasutta² about the postures of going, standing, sitting and lying down, and about clear comprehension in all one's actions. We read: ³And further, o bhikkhus, when he is going, a bhikkhu understands: ŒI am going¹...². The same is said of the other postures. The Commentary explains: ³Who goes? No living being or person whatsoever. Whose going is it? Not the going of any living being or person. On account of what does the going take place? On account of the diffusion of the process of oscillation born of mental activity...² Thus, being aware of the postures is not just knowing what one is doing, but we should realize that there are only elements, nåma and rúpa, arising because of conditions. As we read, the process of oscillation or motion born of mental activity occurs. When mindfulness of the body is applied, it does not mean that there is no awareness of nåma. Both nåma and rúpa occur all the time and their difference should be discerned by paññå. All the sections in the Satipatthånasutta give us examples of different situations in life that can remind us of being aware of the dhamma appearing through one of the six doors. We read in the section on clear comprehension, sati-sampajañña, that the monk had to practise clear comprehension in all his actions, such as walking, bending, stretching, wearing robes and bowl, eating, chewing, speaking and being silent. The Commentary explains that there is no self who eats. The process of digestion goes on because of conditions. We read: ³There is no one who, having put up an oven and lit a fire, is cooking each lump standing there. By only the process of caloricity the lump of food matures. There is no one who expels each digested lump with a stick or pole. Just the process of oscillation or motion expels the digested food.² In the section on the Repulsiveness of the Body we read about hair of the head, hair of the body, nails, teeth, skin and so on. This is again a reminder of dhamma in daily life. We can notice these parts of the body time and again, and they can remind us that what we take for the body are only elements that are impermanent and not self. In the same way the section on the Elements can bring us back to reality when we are distracted. What we take for ³our important body² are only elements devoid of self. The cemetery contemplations are recollections of death. We read that when the bhikkhu sees a corpse he thinks of his own body thus: ³Verily this body of mine, too, is of the same nature as that body, is going to be like that body, and has not got past the condition of becoming like that body.² **** Nina 34150 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:38am Subject: Intro Vis. 83 Intro Vis. 83 There are many factors necessary as conditions for the arising of the first type of kusala citta of the sense-sphere: accompanied by wisdom associated with pleasant feeling and unprompted. A desirable object is one of the conditions for citta to be accompanied by pleasant feeling. It is explained that a desirable object is not necessarily a condition for citta with attachment. Citta can rejoice in the object with wise attention. We read in the (Expositor I, p. 100): When there is strong confidence in the Triple Gem and the development of kusala, including right understanding, there are conditions for kusala citta with pa~n~naa that is accompanied by pleasant feeling and enthusiasm (piiti). The Tiika reminds us that pleasant feeling accompanies the citta until it dissolves. Feeling does not last, it falls away immediately, there is no self who can cause feeling to be pleasant. We read in the (Expositor p. 100): As to the word 'bent on' , the Pali has: pari.naamita, bend to, change into. There can be a change from akusala to kusala if one understands the right conditions to be cultivated. An abundance of right reflection is also a condition for kusala. We need good friends who give us stimulating talks. We then read that the Tiika refers to the four wheels that are favorable conditions for the arising of kusala citta with right understanding. These four wheels are: living in a suitable place, association with noble persons, right aspiration, and meritorious deeds formerly done. (See AN IV, 4, 1, The Wheel). Further on the Tiika mentions as conditions for the citta to be accompanied by wisdom: past kamma, maturity of the faculties, that is to say: the faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom which have to be developed. Another factor is one¹s age. The age from forty to fifty is the most favorable age to develop wisdom according to the Visuddhimagga. Kusala citta accompanied by wisdom needs many conditions, some stemming from the past and others that are of the present. The Dhammasanga.nii, when dealing with the first type of kusala citta, states: and then it enumerates the many cetasikas that assist the citta. The ³Expositor² (p. 76 etc.) explains numerous meanings of samaya, such as: time or occasion, concurrence of causes, moment. It explains that the should be classed as the one moment in the sense of occasion, they form the occasion for the production of merit. It states: It shows the extreme shortness of the time in the occurrence of kusala citta and it points out . It stresses that advice has been given that we should have strenuousness and earnestness in pa.tivedha, realization of the truth, since this is very difficult: Samaya can also mean group, and this shows the simultaneous occurrence of many dhammas. The kusala citta is accompanied by many cetasikas, each performing their own function. By samaya is shown the concurrence of conditions, the mutual contribution towards the production of a common result. The Expositor explains with regard to samaya as condition: When we learn about all the different factors that are necessary conditions for the arising of one moment of kusala citta with paññaa we are reminded that kusala citta does not belong to us and that it falls away immediately. Kusala citta is very rare and even more so kusala citta with paññaa. We have accumulated a great amount of akusala and thus there are conditions for its arising very often. This is a pungent reminder to develop all kinds of kusala for which there is an opportunity. **** Nina. 34151 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro Hi Larry and Icaro, op 24-06-2004 00:55 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: . I would like more > info on joy, equanimity, and knowledge. N: You will get the whole works tomorrow. L: Also is this the place to list > all the kusala cetasikas and discuss what is meant by "beautiful"? N: We shall come to those later on. The word sobhana means shining, splendid or beautiful. We refer to sobhana cetasikas since these are not only of the jaati that is kusala, but also of the jaatis that are vipaka and kiriya. All details will come in due time in the Visuddhimagga. The Tiika 83 is excellent and I did not like to shorten it, it is important. For my Pali study I selected the Wheel sutta and I shall post it here. It matches with this Tiika. Icaro: I use the Dhammasangani Pali in hard copy. The first sentence: Yasmi.m samaye kaamaavacaara kusala.m citta.m... You may like the elaboration on samaye in my Intro. It is so deep in meaning and it has many aspects. It reminds me not to dilly dally, kusala citta with pañña is so rare. Just like a flash of lightning. We do not know how much longer we shall live, we may die tomorrow. Nina. P.S. Larry, I will be away four days next week from June 30- July 3. I cannot guarantee that I finish Tiika Vis 84 within one week, but I shall take it with me. They are rather long but important. Really worth while. 34152 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 10:38am Subject: Wheel sutta Hi Larry and friends, Here is the sutta that matches so well our Tiika Vis. 83 study. With the Co, The Wheel Sutta. Cattaarimaani bhikkhave, cakkaani, there are four wheels, monks, yehi samannaagataana.m devamanussaana.m catucakka.m vattati, and for devas and men who possess these, fourfold prosperity is rolling on. yehi samannaagataa devamanussaa The devas and men who are possessed of these nacirasseva mahantatta.m vepullatta.m paapu.nanti bhogesu. reach in no long time greatness and abundance in prosperity. Katamaani cattaari? Which are the four? Patiruupadesavaaso, sappurisa avassayo Living in a suitable place, association with noble persons, attasammaapa.nidhi, pubbe ca katapu~n~nataa- right aspiration, and meritorious deeds formerly done. imaani kho, bhikkhave, cattaari cakkaani, These are truly, monks, the four wheels, yehi samannaagataana.m devamanussaana.m catucakka.m vattati, and the devas and men who are possessed of these yehi samannaagataa devamanussaa nacirasseva mahantatta.m vepullatta.m paapu.nanti bhogesuu>ti. reach in no long time greatness and abundance in prosperity. Verse: Patiruupe vase dese, If one lives in a suitable place ariyamitta karo siyaa; and has noble friendship; sammaapa.nidhi sampanno, and has right aspiration pubbe pu~n~nakato naro; and, as a hero, has formerly done meritorious deeds; dha~n~na.m dhana.m yaso kitti, grain, wealth, honour, fame, sukha~nceta.m adhivattatii>ti. and all this happiness will be the result for him. **** Commentary: as to association with noble persons, the Co remarks: drawing near and sitting close to the Buddha etc. N: this means: listening to noble persons. As to right aspiration: someone may have many activities and has no confidence in kusala, but then he may have abandoned this lack of confidence and applied himself to all good qualities such as confidence. As to meritorious deeds formerly done, this means that someone has accumulated kusala kamma. This is the subject of this sutta: because of kusala kamma performed by the citta that is accompanied by paññaa is the condiiton for someone to enter a suitable country, to meet a noble person and thus he will have right aspiration. As to sukha~nceta.m adhivattatii: that happiness will be abundant and overwhelming for him. 34153 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 0:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro Hi, Nina > Icaro: I use the Dhammasangani Pali in hard copy. The first >sentence: > Yasmi.m samaye kaamaavacaara kusala.m citta.m... You may like the > elaboration on samaye in my Intro. It is so deep in meaning and it >has many > aspects. It reminds me not to dilly dally, kusala citta with pañña >is so > rare. Just like a flash of lightning. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Yes!!! well remembered, Nina!!! The word or term "equality" fits better to samaye than mean ( Larry, since you are so fond of mean, you must pay attention on these ideas!). I managed to put all my poor Dhammasangani PTS trasnlation inside my Palm Top, so it can be always my companion! and about kaamaavacaara Kusala Citta, I remmembered a question you made me about it some posts ago... I misplaced the passage I should quote to you! I stated at that occasion that kaamavaacara has only Kirya or unwholesome cetasikas aspects. later on I rechecked in my copy and... indeed! there are Kaamavaacara Kusala Cittaa, i.e., kaamavaacara that aren't linked only with unwholesome aspects of life!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- We do not know how much >longer we > shall live, we may die tomorrow. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- No! No! No!!! Amithaba can wait!!!! And tomorrow, 25 June... Walpurgis Night!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Nina. > P.S. Larry, I will be away four days next week from June 30- July 3. I > cannot guarantee that I finish Tiika Vis 84 within one week, but I shall > take it with me. They are rather long but important. Really worth while. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- São João... São João... acende a fogueira Em meu coração! Mettaya, Ícaro 34154 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 3:00pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > At which level of spiritual development is there no more rebirth? And is > that the same as parinibbana? Only Arahants and Buddhas are free from rebirth. Only they have uprooted craving for continued existence. According to Nyanatiloka's Buddhist Dictionary, Parinibbana, literally "full Nibbana", is a synonym for Nibbana and therefore does not refer exclusively to the extinction of the five aggregates at the death of the Buddha. I feel that the usage of of the term parinibbana to describe the dissolution of the five aggregates of the Buddha gives the wrong impression that Nibbana is a place where one goes after death, similar to a Christian heaven. In reality Nibbana is an object of a mental state. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: To anticipate where this discussion on the 31 planes is going, let me answer the question, "Do you believe in these 31 planes?". My answer is, "I don't disbelieve. The Buddha discussed these planes of existence in the Suttas many times. This is sufficient for me to think that it might be true. I have no direct experience, nor does it make logical sense to me (from my limited experience) that they must exist as described. In summary, I don't disbelieve." 34155 From: Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro Hi Icaro, Samaya is a confluence, a coming together. Not quite the same as "this is that". "This is that" is just a different perspective of the same thing. They are both empty, void, not self. The mean of death and deathless is birth. Happy Walpurgis Night. Larry 34156 From: Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:17pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro Nina: " I cannot guarantee that I finish Tiika Vis 84 within one week, but I shall take it with me." Hi Nina, No rush. Icaro and I shall meditate until you are ready. Larry 34157 From: Philip Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 4:41pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hello all Thank you for the feedback on my question about this topic. Rob: > PS: To anticipate where this discussion on the 31 planes is going, > let me answer the question, "Do you believe in these 31 planes?". My > answer is, "I don't disbelieve. The Buddha discussed these planes of > existence in the Suttas many times. This is sufficient for me to > think that it might be true. I have no direct experience, nor does it > make logical sense to me (from my limited experience) that they must > exist as described. In summary, I don't disbelieve." Ph: I like this "I don't disbelieve." Last night as I thought about these petas, and planes of existence, and other aspects of Dhamma that my logical mind rejects at first glance, I thought of the expression "willing suspension of disbelief", which as we know is used to describe a movie-goer or novel-reader's willingness to go along with a fantastic story. Because of the undeniable life-changing easily-confirmable veracity of the Buddha' teaching of the Four Noble Truths, and other clear teachings that follow from there, I am willing to not disbelieve. Then I realized that "willing" suggests a self that is eager to find consolation in theory and therefore decides to not disbelieve, so I changed it to "wholesome suspension of disbelief." This morning, waking beet-red and in pain from stupdily spending too much time in the hot midday sun yesterday (I came across some mad- dogs and Englishmen as well) which happened because I had craved the sun and wanted to have a healthy-looking tan during the rainy season, I had good reason to reflect on the Noble Truths and feel very grateful yet again for the confirmability of the Buddha's teaching. I think we can develop a "nevermind" attitude towards the aspects we don't respond to, and that developing this attitude might be wholesome. Metta, Phil 34158 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 7:57pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > Ph: I like this "I don't disbelieve." ===== I am relieved. I was worried that, as an English teacher, you would make me write out fifty times, "I shall not use double negatives." :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 34159 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 8:50pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hello, Like Philip, I also take a 'hands off' attitude towards the heavy doses of petas etc in the Khuddaka Nikaya. "Hands off" may be a poor choice of words--better is that I feel an incredible sense of freedom to not have to ask myself questions about this material, in the same way I feel freedom by following the advice of the Buddha to not pursue a resolution to questions such as "is there or is there not a self?" or "Is there or is there not a God?" The Khuddaka Nikaya is an important part of Buddhist scripture. Some people, however, argue that it does not have the same gravitas as the other four Nikayas, and may come from other sources or other time frames than the other four Nikayas. I don't know if that's true or not, but there does seem to be more of a cloud of questioning surrounding it than is found for the other Nikayas. Granted, the ultimate validity of any "buddhist text" is determined by it's ability to truthfully approximate the dhamma.. .but in the case of KN, there seems to be enough other things going on with it that I try to steer clear of using it as the primary or sole foundation or focus for a discussion. KN remains a valuable source document for Buddhists everywhere. Respectfully, Bill Philip wrote: Hello all Thank you for the feedback on my question about this topic. Rob: > PS: To anticipate where this discussion on the 31 planes is going, > let me answer the question, "Do you believe in these 31 planes?". My > answer is, "I don't disbelieve. The Buddha discussed these planes of > existence in the Suttas many times. This is sufficient for me to > think that it might be true. I have no direct experience, nor does it > make logical sense to me (from my limited experience) that they must > exist as described. In summary, I don't disbelieve." Ph: I like this "I don't disbelieve." Last night as I thought about these petas, and planes of existence, and other aspects of Dhamma that my logical mind rejects at first glance, I thought of the expression "willing suspension of disbelief", which as we know is used to describe a movie-goer or novel-reader's willingness to go along with a fantastic story. Because of the undeniable life-changing easily-confirmable veracity of the Buddha' teaching of the Four Noble Truths, and other clear teachings that follow from there, I am willing to not disbelieve. Then I realized that "willing" suggests a self that is eager to find consolation in theory and therefore decides to not disbelieve, so I changed it to "wholesome suspension of disbelief." I think we can develop a "nevermind" attitude towards the aspects we don't respond to, and that developing this attitude might be wholesome. Metta, Phil 34160 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 9:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Buddhaghosa Dear Sarah, thanks, I order it next time. op 24-06-2004 09:12 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: > S: Buddhaghosuppatti, ed and transl by James Gray, PTS (2001) > A very slim volume but also includes the Pali. 34161 From: Sujjhanna Bhinnatta Date: Thu Jun 24, 2004 11:29pm Subject: Re: Transfer of Merit Hello Rob, Herman, Philip and anyone else eating these worms, Regarding your discussion on transference of merit and the 31 planes of existence: Rob: "The Buddha discussed these planes of existence in the Suttas many times. This is sufficient for me to think that it might be true. I have no direct experience, nor does it make logical sense to me (from my limited experience) that they must exist as described. In summary, I don't disbelieve." B: Here's the logical part, the experiential I leave to you. I paraphrased the following from Thanissaro Bhikku's introduction to the Ittivuttaka[1]. Essentially, the whole system of these different planes and the merit (or lack thereof) that puts us there all goes back to the Buddha's insight into kamma and intention. The Buddha discovered during the course of his awakening that the experience of the present moment is based on three factors: the results from past actions, present actions, and the results of present actions. Those familiar with basic chaos theory will recognize what is known as a feedback loop, with the present moment being shaped by both past and present actions; while present actions shape both the present and the future. This is Buddha's answer to how free will is possible in a deterministic structure like Paticca-samuppada (dependent co-arising). This free will (i.e. intention) is the essence of action. Furthermore, the quality of the intention determines the quality of the act and its results; skillfull, unskillfull, and mixed intentions lead to pleasant, painful, and mixed results respectively. The Buddha's direct experience of the power of intention confirmed for him the process of rebirth. And here comes the logic so I think I'll let Ven. Thanissaro speak directly here: "if experience of the present moment requires the influence of past intentions, then there is no way to account for experience at the beginning of life other than through the intentions of a previous lifetime. At the same time, the power of the quality of intention provided the framework for Buddha's vision of the cosmos in which the process of rebirth takes place: there are pleasant levels of rebirth -- the worlds of the Brahmas and the higher devas; unpleasant levels -- hell, the realms of the hungry shades, common animals, and the angry demons; and mixed levels -- the human realm and some of the lower deva realms. Even in the pleasant levels of rebirth, however, the pleasure is unstable and impermanent, giving no sure release from suffering and pain. The only secure release comes through transcendent skillful intentions, leading to the experience of nibbana, totally beyond the process of rebirth and the constraints of space and time." As an aside, Ven. Thanissaro defines earlier that "transcendent skillful intentions" are a fourth class of intentions that lead one to release from the results of the mundane intentions (i.e. no more present input into the loop), and ultimately the ending of all action. Rob: "As a recap, the questions are, 'How we can really share merit with someone who is dead?'" B: Merit - the name for the sum of all our mundane skillfull intentions and actions that determine our rebirth in various realms - it would seem, based on the above logic, is bound to us and therefore cannot be transfered. I have always understood the transference of merit ritual to be merely that. A ritual. It has wholesome intentions in that it is a way of generating compassion and well wishing toward others, and in the way it prevents us from wanting to simply accumulate good merit with hopes of securing a good rebirth in the next life (re: Bodhidharma and Emperor Wu[2]). R: If anatta is a reality than who or what would we be sharing with?" B: If anatta is a reality then who or what is sharing? or even asking in the first place? Just joking. Seriously though, this question and the ones I offered in response, come from a misinterpretation of anatta as meaning "no-self" rather than "not-self." The distinction is subtle yet, when realized, profoundly changes the direction of one's practice. That, however, is a thread of a different color altogether. Please forgive my pretentiousness. It is part of me. May you all be present, happy and at peace. Bhinnatta reference: [1] - Ven. Thanissaro Bhikku's introduction is located at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/iti/index.html [2] - As the story goes, Bodhidharma goes to China; is invited for an audience with Emperor Wu Di of the Liang dynasty in 520. When the Emperor asked him how much merit he had accumulated through building temples and endowing monasteries, Bodhidharma replied, "None at all." Perplexed, the Emperor then asked, "Well, what is the fundamental teaching of Buddhism?" "Vast emptiness," was the bewildering reply. "Listen," said the Emperor, now losing all patience, "just who do you think you are?" "I have no idea," Bodhidharma replied. --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/18/2004 34162 From: robmoult Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 0:15am Subject: Re: Transfer of Merit Hi Bhinnatta, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sujjhanna Bhinnatta" wrote: > Rob: "The Buddha discussed these planes of existence in the Suttas many > times. This is sufficient for me to think that it might be true. I have no > direct experience, nor does > it make logical sense to me (from my limited experience) that they > must exist as described. In summary, I don't disbelieve." > > B: Here's the logical part, the experiential I leave to you. ===== I am convinced of the reality of rebirth. Mozart and "love at first sight" are evidence enough for me to have a firm belief in rebirth. What I don't disbelieve is the various planes existing as described. Specifically, is there really a hungry ghost plane where beings can benefit from our wishing them well? My answer is, "I don't disbelieve." ===== > > Rob: "As a recap, the questions are, 'How we can really share merit with > someone who is dead?'" > > B: Merit - the name for the sum of all our mundane skillfull intentions and > actions that determine our rebirth in various realms - it would seem, based > on the above logic, is bound to us and therefore cannot be transfered. I > have always understood the transference of merit ritual to be merely that. A > ritual. It has wholesome intentions in that it is a way of generating > compassion and well wishing toward others, and in the way it prevents us > from wanting to simply accumulate good merit with hopes of securing a good > rebirth in the next life (re: Bodhidharma and Emperor Wu[2]). ===== Agreed (and well stated, I might add)! ===== > > R: If anatta is a reality than who or what would we > be sharing with?" > > B: If anatta is a reality then who or what is sharing? or even asking in the > first place? Just joking. Seriously though, this question and the ones I > offered in response, come from a misinterpretation of anatta as meaning > "no-self" rather than "not-self." The distinction is subtle yet, when > realized, profoundly changes the direction of one's practice. That, however, > is a thread of a different color altogether. ===== The "no-self" / "non-self" / "not-self" discussion is a real can of worms that I am not interested in opening :-) ===== > > Please forgive my pretentiousness. It is part of me. > ===== Pretentiousness? None noted :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 34163 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:34am Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (9) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Jhaana and Right Concentration (1) Though the above discussion seems to imply that the path of stream-entry might be reached without prior attainment of jhaana, the thesis that jhaana is necessary at every stage of enlightenment claims powerful support from the canonical account of the Noble Eightfold Path, which defines the path factor of right concentration (sammaa samaadhi) with the stock formula for the four jhaanas.[20] From this definition it might be argued that since right concentration is integral to the path, and since the jhaanas form the content of right concentration, the jhaanas are indispensable from the first stage of awakening to the last. This conclusion, however, does not necessarily follow. Even if we agree that the definition of right concentration by way of the jhaanas categorically means that the jhaanas must be reached in the course of developing the path, this need not be taken to stipulate that they must be attained prior to attaining stream-entry. It could be that attainment of jhaana is necessary to complete the development of the path, becoming mandatory at a relatively late point in the disciple's progress. That is, it may be a prerequisite for reaching one of the higher paths and fruits, but may not be indispensable for reaching the first path and fruit. The Theravaada exegetical system found in the Paali Commentaries handles this issue in a different way. Based on the Abhidhamma's classification of states of consciousness, the Commentaries distinguish two kinds of path: the preliminary (pubbabhaaga) or mundane (lokiya) path and the supramundane (lokuttara) path.[21] Two kinds of jhaanas, mundane and supramundane, correspond to these two kinds of path. The mundane jhaanas are exalted states of consciousness (mahaggata-citta) developed in the preliminary path, as a preparation for reaching the supramundane path; technically, they are "form-sphere" states of consciousness (ruupaavacara-citta), that is, types of consciousness typical of the "form realm" and tending to rebirth in the form realm. The supramundane jhaanas are supramundane states of consciousness (lokuttara-citta) identical with the supramundane paths or fruits themselves. This distinction allows the Commentaries to hold simultaneously two theses regarding the relation of jhaana to the path: (i) every path and fruition attainment, from the stage of stream-entry up, is also a jhaana, and thus all path-attainers are attainers of supramundane jhaana; (ii) not all path-attainers have reached jhaana in the preliminary path leading up to the supramundane path, and thus they need not be attainers of mundane (or form-sphere) jhaana. These two theses can be reconciled because the paths and fruits always occur at a level of concentration corresponding to one of the four jhaanas and thus may be considered jhaanas in their own right, though jhaanas of the supramundane rather than mundane type. These jhaanas are quite distinct from the mundane jhaanas, the exalted states of concentration pertaining to the form-sphere (ruupaavacara). As all path-attainers necessarily attain supramundane jhaana, they fulfil the definition of right concentration in the Noble Eightfold Path, but they may not have attained the form-sphere jhaanas prior to reaching the path. Those who do not attain jhaana develop a lower degree of concentration (called access concentration, upacaara-samaadhi) which they use as a basis to arouse insight and thereby reach the supramundane path. When those meditators who arouse insight without prior attainment of jhaana reach the supramundane path, their path attainment occurs at the level of the first supramundane jhaana. Those who have already cultivated the mundane jhaanas prior to attaining the path, it is said, generally attain a path that occurs at a jhaanic level corresponding to their degree of achievement in the practice of the mundane jhaanas.[22] ****** Notes 20. For example, at DN II 313 and SN V 10. 21. The distinction is found already in Dhs, in its analysis of the classes of wholesome consciousness pertaining to the sphere of form and the supramundane types of wholesome consciousness. See too the Jhaana-vibha,nga (Abhidhamma-bhaajaniiya) of Vibh. 22. See Vism XXI, 112-16. 34164 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 1:36am Subject: RE: [dsg] Typos Hi Icaro, Your Railroad Tycoon goes to Darwin?!. Merde alors. I am limited to having to cart wool around the backwoods of Western NSW!!! Perhaps this is what is meant by akusala kamma vipika, or something. I think it is very mean :-) Herman Ah, Chris.. I finally managed to win the Australian Scenario of the Reailroad Tycoon!!!! I begun linking on Darwin, Tennant Creek and Alice Springs...thanks to Buddha there were bauxite ores at Alice Springs and Alluminium facilites at Darwin and tennant Creek and I made lots of profits on cargo...after I send my track headlong to barcaldine, Rockampton and finally Brisbane!!!!!!! Simple !!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34165 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Complication (was Re: Dustrags) Dear Nina (& Phil), --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Sarah, > lovely reminders about conceit while you were on the beach, so human. .... S:...and this morning when I read Phil's post about mad dogs and Englishmen out in the mid-day sun, I thought - at least this Englishwoman [sometimes!!] has the sense to go out early and stay in the shade! - More conceit at every turn;-). .... > I also liked the sutta quotes. Do you know, in the Abh. Human types, > puggala > pa~n~natti, we also find similer texts about people not staying angry > for > long. Do you have it? If not I shall try giving you a flavour of it. > Nina. ... S: Yes, thank you. It was a wedding present. I just checked Phil's sutta here in the 'Division of Human Types by Three'. In this translation it compares the angry person to a mark on stone, a mark on earth and a mark on water. I'll just type out the last one as it's open here: "What sort of person may be compared to a mark on water? Here a certain person who, even if he is spoken to in a strong and harsh and unpleasant manner, is connected and coherent, and makes himself agreeable. Just as a mark on water disappears quickly and does not last long, so also a certain person, etc. Such is the person who may be compared to a mark on water." I'd be glad to hear any other suttas or quote refs you have in mind. Metta, Sarah ======= 34166 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:02am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Rob M and everyone, I am assuming from the lack of posts countering what you wrote in your post that I originally referred to, that you are describing the thinking of mainstream Buddhism on transfer of merit very well indeed. That's probably why it was deemed a useful post :-) I can see the wisdom in your "not disbelieving" comment, and in those who concurred. I am of the school of logic that maintains that a double negation is meaningless, so I equate "not disbelieving" with "not having a view either way". And that position is impossible to improve upon. Still, in the world of views, it may be progressive to contrive to obtain the merit from all the saints in their penultimate births. Can a billion Catholics possibly be wrong ? :-) Thank you Herman Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I find this interesting, but also very speculative. ===== I agree on both points. ===== > It seems, then, that > there is a foundation for Catholics to pray to Mary and the saints to > intercede for the souls of the dead? ===== Interesting parallel. However, in this case, we are the ones doing the interceding and we are not saints. In addition, we are not doing so because we are requested to do so, but rather that we are motivated ourselves to perform this practice. Finally, the recipients are not "dead", they are spending time as ghosts before their next rebirth. ===== > Surely we also share negative thoughts? ===== I included the following below to indicate that I believe that petas can sense our negative thoughts, but that since they have such a miserable existence, it doesn't impact them much... > I suspect that petas are also able to sense unwholesome mental > states, but this does not "send them down" as their existence is > already quite miserable. The opportunity for them to sense your > positive mental state is one of the few positive experiences > available to these petas and a positive experience provides an > opportunity for positive rebirth. Metta, Rob M :-) 34167 From: robmoult Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Re Transfer of Merit Hi Herman, Great! So you're not disagreeing with me :-) :-) :-) Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Rob M and everyone, > > I am assuming from the lack of posts countering what you wrote in your > post that I originally referred to, that you are describing the thinking > of mainstream Buddhism on transfer of merit very well indeed. That's > probably why it was deemed a useful post :-) > > I can see the wisdom in your "not disbelieving" comment, and in those > who concurred. > > I am of the school of logic that maintains that a double negation is > meaningless, so I equate "not disbelieving" with "not having a view > either way". And that position is impossible to improve upon. > > Still, in the world of views, it may be progressive to contrive to > obtain the merit from all the saints in their penultimate births. Can a > billion Catholics possibly be wrong ? :-) > > Thank you > > > Herman > > > Hi Herman, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: > > I find this interesting, but also very speculative. > > ===== > > I agree on both points. > > ===== > > > It seems, then, that > > there is a foundation for Catholics to pray to Mary and the saints > to > > intercede for the souls of the dead? > > ===== > > Interesting parallel. However, in this case, we are the ones doing > the interceding and we are not saints. In addition, we are not doing > so because we are requested to do so, but rather that we are > motivated ourselves to perform this practice. Finally, the recipients > are not "dead", they are spending time as ghosts before their next > rebirth. > > ===== > > Surely we also share negative thoughts? > > ===== > > I included the following below to indicate that I believe that petas > can sense our negative thoughts, but that since they have such a > miserable existence, it doesn't impact them much... > > > I suspect that petas are also able to sense unwholesome mental > > states, but this does not "send them down" as their existence is > > already quite miserable. The opportunity for them to sense your > > positive mental state is one of the few positive experiences > > available to these petas and a positive experience provides an > > opportunity for positive rebirth. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 34168 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 2:47am Subject: RE: [dsg] Virtues of the Buddha? Hi Philip, The Buddha also has 32 lakkhana and 80 anubyañjana which you may find useful to consider. http://users.pandora.be/dhammakaya/repository/lakkhana1.html The more I read the more I think it is also wise to remain viewless about the Holy Roman Catholic Church. I see little to separate the temple -attending devotee and the mass-attending devotee. Ciao Herman -----Original Message----- From: Philip [mailto:plnao@j...] Sent: Tuesday, 22 June 2004 9:46 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Virtues of the Buddha? Hello all I find these days that for various reasons I am wanting to reflect on the virtues or qualities of the Buddha, but I don't know exactly what they are so I find myself thinking about the Brahma- Viharas. What are the traditional lists, if you will, of the virtues of the Buddha that are used in such recollections? Thanks in advance. And thanks in passing to Sarah and Nina for messages that I won't be able to respond to until tomorrow. And thanks to Christine for the fab Dhammapada links! :) Metta, Phil 34169 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 3:01am Subject: Re:dsg] Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (1) Dear Tzung kuen, I meant to reply to your letter below earlier. Thank you for your comments. --- Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > Dear Sraah > T: >...Since > there is no doubt that the commentaries acknowledge the sukkhavipassaka > method, people who deny the possibility of attainment of arahantship > without jhana usually do not accept post-canonical commentaries as > authority. ... S: To reject the commentaries as authority on this basis would, I think, show a very strong view about the importance of jhanas in this regard. I am curious about the reasons for this. ..... > T: > I believe that as far as Mahasi¡|s meditation tradition is concerned, > they argued to justify the methods of meditation practice they are using > for the benefits of the ordinary people who don¡|t have time and ability > to read the Pali texts directly. .... S: I think again it relates to the idea of practice and what should be done, rather than understood perhaps. .... > T: > Since it is said that ¡¥one who is concentrated knows and sees [dhammas] > as they really are¡|. Concentration (samadhi) is regarded as the > proximate cause of wisdom. (Vism 438 (PTS)) .... S: They arise together and are each the promate cause of the other as I understand, developing together. .... T:>The question may arise that > to which level of concentration one should develop in order to gain > insight into the reality of all mental and physical dhammas. If jhana > is the requisite for attainment of magga-phala, we have no choice but to > practice samatha meditat > ion to attain jhanas before trying to practice vipassana meditation, > otherwise, the aim to understand the reality of rupa-nama and nibbana > will never be achieved. ..... S: In your view, what does it mean 'to practice samatha meditation to attain jhanas'? Can there be any control or order over what kind of kusala arises at this moment? If there is any idea of 'trying to practice vipassana meditation' as opposed to understanding currently arising namas and rupas, can it be right? What I am getting at is that these arguments about certain orders all suggest an idea of a self that can control or arrange practices when we know the teachings are about anatta. .... > T: > I happen to have two passages of the definition of vipassana. > Patis ¢º 96: > Insight is in the sense of contemplation as impermanent; insight is in > the sense of contemplation as painful; insight is in the sense of > contemplation as not self. (Aniccato anupassanat.t.hena vipassanaa > dukkhato anupassanat.t.hena vipassanaa, anattato anupasanat.t.hena > vipassanaa) > > Patis-a ¢1 116: > It sees dhammas in various ways in relation to impermanence etc., so it > is vipassana. Wisdom has this name. (Aniccataadivasena vividhehi > aakaarehi dhamme passatiiti vipassanaa. Pa~n~naayetam naamam.) .... S: Good. Suan and I also looked at definitions in the Vibhanga and also concluded vipassana is a synonym of pa~n~naa: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/31806 (You might like to look at other posts under 'vipassana' in U.P.) .... > T: > As you know, many people (and some Western scholars) deny the > authority of post-canonical commentaries and try to understand the > meaning of the Pali Canon in their own ways. I don¡|t want to say it¡|s > wrong, but I think it might be dangerous if they don't consider > traditional interpretations. .... S: I agree. Often I think it's because the traditional interpretations in the commentaries are not fully understood or conflict with other deeply cherished beliefs. It's not easy. .... T:> If we know how the Buddhist Canons were transmitted to us, we will > not insist with dosa that only this or that is the words of the Buddha, > only this or that is the correct interpretation. Instead, we will wisely > use the Buddhist Canon and commentaries only to reduce our defilements. ... S: Dosa or clinging to wrong views are never helpful. However, the teachings can be tested and proved so that panna or the development of vipassana can realize what is the correct interpretation and what is the 'Buddha's word' without doubt. For example, if an idea of practice leads to more idea of self and less idea of conditioned realities, we know it is not the 'Buddha's word'. .... T:> From the scholarly perspective, the best way to approach, if it is > possible, the words of the historical Buddha is to compare, as possible > as we can, different versions of Buddhist Canon and different > interpretations given in the post-canonical commentaries preserved in > different schools. .... S: From a scholarly or even historical perspective this may be true. However, from the perspective of directly understanding namas and rupas right now, I'm not sure that it's helpful. When we read different interpretations,we can test out what is true. For example, what I very briefly summarised from the Katthavatthu yesterday regarding the idea (Sarvastivadin) that past present and future realities exist. Panna knows that only the present dhammas ever exist even though scholarly research will show that the different interpretations were based on the same suttas at the same time. When I occasionally read papers by historians or modern scholars, I find so much depends on their understanding and interpretations of the Pali texts and commentaries. Often it seems there is some discrepancy between the suttas and Abhidhamma or between the suttas and Pali commentaries and this leads them to various conclusions about later ideas or formulations whereas when I read the same passages, I don't find any discrepancies, merely a practical and detailed elaboration of what is already contained in the suttas. Texts like the Kathavatthu and its commentary just confirm this for me. ..... > T: > ¡¥vipassanaa-pubbangamam samatham¡| means ¡¥samatha which is preceded by > vipassana¡|. This is explained in commentaries to indicate the > meditative way of ¡¥sukkhavipassaka¡| (dry -insighter) who practices > directly vipassana meditation without previously attaining ¡¥access > concentration¡| or jhanas. > ¡¥Vipassanaa-yaanika¡|or 'suddha-vipassanaa-yaanika' is synonyms of > 'sukkhavipassaka'. .... S: This is as I understand (AN: 4.170). Surely here is an arahant. By 'practices vipassana meditation', I think vipassana bhavana is being referred to. I prefer to put it by way of developing vipassana (bhavana) without the connotation of any special action. Glad for your comments. ... > S: > Whatever the rights and wrongs, like now, we?re all studying the Dhamma > together, but by inclination we have different strengths and weaknesses - > one will have more saddha, another more viriya and so on. So I?m sure > that > there are a very large number of possibilities depending on cittas > arising > at the time. > > T: > I agree with you. It doesn¡|t matter, I think, whether our > interpretations of the Canon are precise or not (who knows, the Buddha > is not here), the most important thing is to observe our mind as it > really is in order to reduce our immeasurable defilements. .... S: This isn't quite what I meant above. I think it matters a lot whether our interpretations and understanding of the Canon are precise and as pa~n~naa develops it will know more and more precisely. What I meant was that while pa~n~naa develops, the different accumulations and strengths and weaknesses arise so there are an infinite number of possible cittas and possible 'types' of worldlings or ariyans. I think the most important thing is to understand whatever nama or rupa appears at the present moment without any selection, choice or idea of self observing or wishing. The path will lead to the reduction and eventually the eradication of the defilements, but not by any desire for such a reduction. I look forward to any more of your well-considered comments. Metta, Sarah ====== 34170 From: agriosinski Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 5:06am Subject: Re: Wheel sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Larry and friends, > Here is the sutta that matches so well our Tiika Vis. 83 study. With the Co, > > The Wheel Sutta. > Cattaarimaani bhikkhave, cakkaani, > there are four wheels, monks, Hi Nina. Is there any way I could have the first two Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta Anattalakkhana Sutta and whats third? Simsapa Sutta? in this, "interlinear" form? Are they also availeble in MP3 as a Pali chant somewhere? metta, Agrios 34171 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:14am Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (10) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Jhaana and Right Concentration (2) Though the Nikaayas do not clearly distinguish the two types of paths and jhaanas, several suttas foreshadow this distinction, the most prominent among them being the Mahaacattaariisaka Sutta.[23] The distinction becomes explicit in the Abhidhamma, where it is used as a basis for the definitions of the form-sphere and supramundane wholesome states of consciousness. The Commentaries go one step further and adopt this distinction as foundational to their entire method of exegesis. Although one is certainly not justified in reading the interpretative concepts of the Commentaries into the canonical texts themselves, since the Commentaries feel obliged to explain the definition of right concentration as the four jhaanas in a way that does not imply all path-attainers possess the form-sphere jhaanas, this makes it plain that they did not regard the form-sphere jhaanas as a prerequisite for attaining the path of stream-entry. ****** Notes 23. MN No. 117. In this sutta the Buddha distinguishes five of the path factors, from right view through right livelihood, into two kinds, one "connected with taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the aggregates" (saasava pu--abhaagiya upadhivepakka), the other "noble, taintless, supramundane, a factor of the path" (ariya anaasava lokuttara magga,nga). "Noble right concentration with its supports and requisites" (ariya sammaa samaadhi sa-upanisa sa-parikkhaara) is mental one-pointedness equipped with the other seven factors in their noble, supramundane dimension. If the latter is understood to be supramundane jhaana, then we might suppose the jhaanas usually described in the training of the disciple are "connected with taints, partaking of merit, ripening in the aggregates." The texts never describe the jhaanas in quite these terms, but some suttas imply their attainment leads only to a higher rebirth without necessarily conducing to deliverance. See note 39 below. [39. See AN 4:123/II 126-28, which contrasts the worldling who attains the jhaanas with the Buddhist disciple who attains them.] 34172 From: Philip Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:49am Subject: [dsg] Complication (was Re: Dustrags) Hi Sarah A chance to catch up with you on this thread > ..... Ph: > >And indeed, it is not so much the topic of conceit that > > interests me, but unnessary complication. We are bound to think > > conceptually - we need to to survive in the world- but should it be > > encouraged as a method of right understanding? > .... > S: I don't read these examples (eg dustrag metaphor) as being an > encouragement to think conceptually or `complicate?E I think that just as > certain metaphors or similes we read or hear about may be conditions for > wise reflection on the brahma viharas or parami or even for moments of > right understanding arising, so may others be helpful reminders of the > danger of conceit or clinging to self and the value of detachment or > wisdom too. It just depends on the time and our tendencies. Ph: And I guess it also depends on our capacity, if you will, at the time. As Nina said in another post in this thread: Nina: > There are many >beautiful similes in the suttas. We do not think of paramattha >dhammas all >day. We poor worldlings should grab anything that can help us. Ph: I think my talk with Rob K inspired me in the direction of looking into realities *now* but we have to be patient. I certainly agree it is better to spend time reflecting on a wholesome simile than gazing in a glassy-eyed stupor at the latest installment of Temptation Island. Ph:> > It just seemed to me that the whole simile of the dustrag is > > unnecessarily complicated. If we have understanding of annata and the > > other characteristics - even intellectual knowledge - why not go > > straight there? Isn't giving rise to the simile of a dustrag a kind > > of papanca that we could avoid? > >I am just beginning to learn about > > papanca. > S: Of course there can be wise and unwise reflection (i.e papanca) of > anything including dustrags. If one has the idea that one should think of > oneself as a dustrag, it might be yet another ritual and definitely a kind > of papanca, I agree. Ph: I will want to learn a lot more about papanca. It seems to me to be very, very important, judging only from the wee little bit I've read about it. To what degree is it inevitable for worldlings, and uncontrollable. At what point does it begin to die down? How do panna and sati work to subdue papanca, if that's the right word? Is it papanca that makes the world "a burning house", as the Buddha called it, if I recall. That's the way I feel - in an affectionate way- towards people, including myself, these days. All this spinning out of the mental reel, all the proliferation of akusala factors. It would seem to me that things can only descend into chaos, eventually, as the result of that. Who is willing to be silent mentally? Are we who love DSG capable of being mentally quiet? Don't we all love to spin out ideas? Fortunately, we have an openness to the Buddha's teaching to guide us away from excesses, but...I don't think I could live without my mental proliferation. Is it a myth that the brain that does not dream goes mad? What about the mind that doesn't proliferate? Is that only the arahant? S:> As a side note, understanding of the three characteristics always relates > *the characteristics of realities*. There cannot be the understanding of > anatta without understanding the characteristic of seeing or visible > object or conceit, for example. It is the understanding of these realities > as anatta that is meant. Ph: Well, I think this is a deeper kind of understanding than what I'm referring to. I find that these days in the morning I just sit with my coffee and think intellectually about annata. Think about khandas, about the idea of rupa and nama falling. Think of people rushing around through life in the mistaken belief that they have a coherent and lasting self in control of things. I think of my hair falling out and my skin getting more and more wrinkled and the way the vegetable field below our balcony keeps changing. I think of all the craving I did the day before, and watch all the little leaps of anticipation or regret that pop up as I sip my coffee. This is just pondering the three characterstics, but I think it grounds me in the Dhamma for the day ahead. So I would say that understanding annata conceptually as a theme for reflection is still helpful even when it is nowhere near real investigation of realites. The difference is that since finding Abhidhamma this conceptual understanding of annata is somehow much clearer. It is like I have a map that I can lay out on my lap and glace at as I ponder, or something. In any case, the thing I am really wanting to do these days is reread ADL and see if I can answer the questions, order the Manual of Abhidhamma edited by Bhikkhu Bodhi, read Nina's "Cetasikas", and "Conditions." Instead of doing quite so much speculative babbling - I want to get at the works. Indeed, "there cannot be the understanding of anatta without understanding the characteristic of seeing or visible object or conceit, for example" as you said. I know I have only barely begun to understand annata. I want to get deeper into the works. Maybe that is why I am curious about papanca because it must surely take us into shallower waters as it spins out and away from investigation of realites. Rob M was talking about the process of "perversion of thought" leading to "perversion of view." This is involved too. It's all so fascinating. I wish I had 7 heads with 3 brains each, and an extra day off a week. Sleepy. This was another babbly post. Thanks again for your long and thorough response, Sarah. The parts I didn't get too I will be re- reading later. Metta, Phil 34173 From: icarofranca Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 8:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro Daer Larry: > > No rush. Icaro and I shall meditate until you are ready. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You will meditate on Mean, Larry, since you like Mean so much!! Mean Square Root Arithmetic Mean Geometric Mean Harmonic Mean The product of means is equal to product to extremes How Buddha considered mean at the Suttas Mean Mean Mean !!!! I will watch Rocky & Bullwinkle show on TV!!!!! mettaya, Ícaro 34174 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:48am Subject: Tiika Vis. 83, Pali Pali Vis. 83: tattha kusala.m bhuumibhedato catubbidha.m kaamaavacara.m ruupaavacara.m aruupaavacara.m lokuttara~nca. tattha kaamaavacara.m somanassupekkhaa~naa.nasa"nkhaarabhedato a.t.thavidha.m. seyyathida.m. somanassasahagata.m ~naa.nasampayutta.m asa"nkhaara.m sasa"nkhaara~nca, tathaa~naa.navippayutta.m. upekkhaasahagata.m ~naa.nasampayutta.m asa"nkhaara.m sasa"nkhaara~nca, tathaa ~naa.navippayutta.m. *** Tiika Vis. 83, Pali Pali-English: Explanation of the kusala citta that is associated with pleasant feeling: Tiika: Sobhana.m mano, sundara.m vaa mano etassaati sumano, sumanassa bhaavo somanassa.m, Pleasant feeling (somanassa) is the state of a good mind, it is of a splendid (sobhana) or beautiful mentality, and thus a ³happy mind², maanasikasukhaa vedanaa ru.lhiyaa, feeling that is the effect of a happy state of mind. N: The Tiika gives a word derivation of somanassa: su is good and mano is mind. See also Co to the Topics of the Abhidhamma (p. 12). Tiika: somanassena uppaadato pa.t.thaaya yaava bha"ngaa sahagata.m pavatta.m sa.msa.t.tha.m, sampayuttanti attho. It means that it is accompanied by pleasant feeling, because it has arisen with pleasant feeling by conditions, connected with it, occurring conjoined with it, until it dissolves. Somanassasahagatataa cassa aaramma.navasena veditabbaa. It should be known that the citta is accompanied by pleasant feeling also on account of the object. I.t.thaaramma.ne hi citta.m somanassasahagata.m hoti. Citta is accompanied by pleasant feeling on account of a desirable object. Nanu ca i.t.thaaramma.na.m lobhassa vatthu, katha.m tattha kusala.m hotiiti? But is a desirable object not the fundamental cause of greed? How can it be kusala in that case? Nayidamekantika.m i.t.thepi aabhogaadivasena kusalassa uppajjanato. This is a specific method of explanation in virtue of the arising of kusala citta that rejoices also in a desirable object. Yassa hi catusampatticakkasamaayogaadivasena yonisova aabhogo hoti, The reasons of the fact that the citta rejoices with right attention are: being possessed of the four wheels of prosperity and so on, kusalameva ca mayaa kattabbanti kusalakara.ne citta.m niyamita.m, being determined on good deeds, thinking, we ought to do meritorious deeds, akusalappavattito ca nivattetvaa kusalakara.ne eva pari.naamita.m, being bent only on wholesome deeds by inhibiting the occurring of akusala, abhi.nhakara.navasena ca samudaacarita.m, being well 'trained' in constant practice. tassa i.t.thepi aaramma.ne alobhaadisampayuttameva citta.m hoti, na lobhaadisampayutta.m. Because of this the citta is accompanied by non-attachment etc. on account of a desirable object, and not accompanied by attachment etc. Explanation of the citta to be accompanied by wisdom: Tiika: Yo hi paresa.m dhamma.m deseti, Who teaches the Dhamma to others, anavajjaani sippaayatanakammaayatanavijja.t.thaanaani sikkhaapetiiti evamaadika.m pa~n~naasa.mvattaniya.m karoti, and trains them in blameless arts, manual labour and knowledge, and is thus performing things that are leading to wisdom, tassa kammuupanissayavasena kusalacitta.m uppajjamaana.m ~naa.nasampayutta.m hoti. for him the kusala citta that arises and is conditioned by such kamma is accompanied by wisdom... Tathaa pa~n~naadasakapattassa indriyaparipaaka.m nissaaya kusala.m uppajjamaana.m ~naa.nasampayutta.m hoti. Moreover, when kusala citta arises in dependence on the maturity of the faculties, for him who has arrived at the wisdom-decade, it does so in association with knowledge. Yena pana kilesaa vikkhambhitaa, tassa kilesaduuriibhaava.m nissaaya ~naa.nasampayutta.m hoti. By whom the defilements are subdued, for him the citta, because of being removed from defilements, is accompanied by wisdom. N: As to subdued, vikkhambhita, this pertains to the temporary elimination of the hindrances by jhaana attainment. This is vikkhambhana pahåna, overcoming by repression. The citta accompanied by wisdom can attain jhaana. Vuttampi ceta.m ³yogaa ve jaayate bhuuri, ayogaa bhuurisa"nkhayo²ti (dha. pa. 282). As is said (in Dhammapada 282): Explanation of prompted and unprompted: N: The Expositor explains the word sa.nkhaara, prompting, as external plan, effort, instigation by oneself or someone else. A citta that is prompted can arise from self-instigation, or The Tiika explains that the citta can be prompted by the instigation of oneself or by another, and that when there is not such prompting the citta is unprompted, asa"nkhaarika. Explanation of the kusala citta being unaccompanied by wisdom: Tiika: ~naa.nena vippayutta.m virahitanti ~naa.navippayutta.m. ~Naa.navippayutta.m means dissociated, exempt from wisdom... Explanation of the kusala citta being associated with indifferent feeling : Tiika: Upekkhatiiti upekkhaa, vedayamaanaapi aaramma.na.m ajjhupekkhati majjhattataakaarasa.n.thitattaati attho. It is disinterested and thus indifferent feeling, it means that while it feels on account of the object it is indifferent, it has the mode of staying in the middle. N: The Commentary explains upekkhaa by means of word associations: upekkhati in Pali means, to look on, to be disinterested. Also the word ajjhupekkhati is used, meaning: to be indifferent. Tiika: Atha vaa upetaa sukhadukkhaana.m aviruddhaa ikkhaa anubhavananti upekkhaa. Alternatively, indifferent feeling that is confronted with pleasure and pain experiences it while it looks on and is not obstructed by it. N: The word ikkhaa is.used. Ikkhati means: to look on. Tiika: Atha vaa i.t.the ca ani.t.the ca aaramma.ne pakkhapaataabhaavena upapattito yuttito ikkhati anubhavatiiti upekkhaa, taaya sahagatanti upekkhaasahagata.m. Or else, it experiences a desirable or undesirable object and it looks on as it arises in an impartial way and thus it is indifferent feeling, upekkhaa. The citta that is associated with that feeling is called: associated with indifferent feeling. Sesa.m sabba.m he.t.thaa vuttanayameva. All the rest is according to the same method as explained above. **** Nina. 34175 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro Hi Larry, op 25-06-2004 01:17 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...:> > No rush. Icaro and I shall meditate until you are ready. N: There is a lot to meditate on. I was so impressed by the texts, about the concurrence of all those condiitons for kusala citta with pañña. We know about natural decisive support, but knowing details helps to have more understanding of it. Nina. 34176 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:48am Subject: Tiika Vis. 83, English Vis. 83 text: I. Herein, the 'profitable' is fourfold according to plane, namely, (A) of the sense sphere, (B) of the fine-material sphere, (C) of the immaterial sphere, and (D) supramundane.(36) I. A. Herein, (1)-(8) that of the 'sense sphere' is eightfold, being classified according to joy, equanimity, knowledge, and prompting, that is to say: (1) when accompanied-by-joy it is either associated-with-knowledge and unprompted, or (2) prompted; or (3) it is dissociated-from-knowledge and likewise [unprompted, or (4) prompted]; and (5) when accompanied-by-equanimity it is either associated-with-knowledge and prompted, or (6) unprompted; or (7) it is dissociated-from-knowledge [453] and likewise [unprompted, or (8) prompted]. Tiika Vis. 83, English Tiika Vis. 83, continued (after note 36 on kaamaavacara, cittas of the sense-sphere): Explanation of the kusala citta that is associated with pleasant feeling: ******************************************************** Tiika: Pleasant feeling (somanassa) is the state of a good mind, it is of a splendid (sobhana) or beautiful mentality, and thus a ³happy mind², feeling that is the effect of a happy state of mind. N: The Tiika gives a word derivation of somanassa: su is good and mano is mind. See also Co to the Topics of the Abhidhamma (p. 12). Tiika: It means that it is accompanied by pleasant feeling, because it has arisen with pleasant feeling by conditions, connected with it, occurring conjoined with it, until it dissolves. N: The citta with pleasant feeling arises, is present for an extremely short moment and then it dissolves. Pleasant feeling cannot last, it dissolves together with the citta. Tiika: It should be known that the citta is accompanied by pleasant feeling also on account of the object. Citta is accompanied by pleasant feeling on account of a desirable object. But is a desirable object not the fundamental cause of greed? How can it be kusala in that case? This is a specific method of explanation in virtue of the arising of kusala citta that rejoices also in a desirable object. The reasons of the fact that the citta rejoices with right attention are: being possessed of the four wheels of prosperity and so on, being determined on good deeds, thinking, we ought to do meritorious deeds, being bent only on wholesome deeds by inhibiting the occurring of akusala, being well 'trained' in constant practice. Because of this the citta is accompanied by non-attachment etc. on account of a desirable object, and not accompanied by attachment etc. N: See the Expositor (I, p. 100) and my Intro. Explanation of the citta to be accompanied by wisdom: ******************************************* The Tiika then explains the conditions for the citta to be accompanied by wisdom, ~naa.nasampayutta. Here the text is similar to the Expositor (p. 100): <...birth as determined by past kamma, maturity of the controlling faculties, and distance from the corruptions.> N: Kusala citta accompanied by wisdom in a past life can produce rebirth-consciousness accompanied by wisdom. If wisdom is developed in that life enlightenment can be attained. As to maturity of the faculties, indriyas: the spiritual faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness concentration and wisdom have to be developed. Tiika: Who teaches the Dhamma to others, anavajjaani sippaayatanakammaayatanavijja.t.thaanaani sikkhaapetiiti evamaadika.m pa~n~naasa.mvattaniya.m karoti, and trains them in blameless arts, manual labour and knowledge, and is thus performing things that are leading to wisdom, tassa kammuupanissayavasena kusalacitta.m uppajjamaana.m ~naa.nasampayutta.m hoti. for him the kusala citta that arises and is conditioned by such kamma is accompanied by wisdom... N: Even training others in worldly knowledge can be an accumulated condition for the arising of wisdom. Tiika: Moreover, when kusala citta arises in dependence on the maturity of the faculties, for him who has arrived at the wisdom-decade, it does so in association with knowledge. N: The wisdom decad is the ten years from forty to fifty. The Visuddhimagga explains the different decads in the life of humans, from babyhood to old age. Tiika: By whom the defilements are subdued, for him the citta, because of being removed from defilements, is accompanied by wisdom. N: As to subdued, vikkhambhita, this pertains to the temporary elimination of the hindrances by jhaana attainment. This is vikkhambhana pahåna, overcoming by repression. The citta accompanied by wisdom can attain jhaana. Tiika: As is said (in Dhammapada 282): Explanation of prompted and unprompted: ********************************* N: The Expositor explains the word sa.nkhaara, prompting, as external plan, effort, instigation by oneself or someone else. A citta that is prompted can arise from self-instigation, or The Tiika explains that the citta can be prompted by the instigation of oneself or by another, and that when there is not such prompting the citta is unprompted, asa"nkhaarika. Explanation of the kusala citta being unaccompanied by wisdom: *************************************************** Tiika: ~Naa.navippayutta.m means dissociated, exempt from wisdom... Explanation of the kusala citta being associated with indifferent feeling : ******************************************************** Tiika: It is disinterested and thus indifferent feeling, it means that while it feels on account of the object it is indifferent, it has the mode of staying in the middle. N: The Commentary explains upekkhaa by means of word associations: upekkhati in Pali means, to look on, to be disinterested. Also the word ajjhupekkhati is used, meaning: to be indifferent. Tiika: Alternatively, indifferent feeling that is confronted with pleasure and pain experiences it while it looks on and is not obstructed by it. N: The word ikkhaa is.used. Ikkhati means: to look on. Tiika: Or else, it experiences a desirable or undesirable object and it looks on as it arises in an impartial way and thus it is indifferent feeling, upekkhaa. The citta that is associated with that feeling is called: associated with indifferent feeling. N: Upekkhaa, indifferent feeling, should not be confused with the sobhana cetasika tatramajjhattataa, equanimity, which can also be denoted as upekkhaa. The word upekkhaa can stand for different realities depending on the context. (See Vis. IV, 157). Indifferent feeling can arise with kusala citta, akusala citta, vipaakacitta and kiriyacitta. Tiika: All the rest is according to the same method as explained above. **** Nina. 34177 From: Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 83, Pali Hi Nina, Does kusala citta accompanied by equanimity necessarily have a desirable object? Another question: if panna contemplating dukkha is accompanied by joy then the object must be the insight itself, correct? Larry 34178 From: Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:33pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro Hi Icaro, Is there any kusala citta in watching Rocky and Bullwinkle? Larry 34179 From: Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 6:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 83, English Hi Nina, Can wisdom be prompted? Larry 34180 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jun 25, 2004 11:52pm Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (11) 11 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi The Stream-enterer and Jhaana (1) The contention between the two parties in the contemporary debate might be recapitulated thus: Those who assert that jhaana is necessary for the attainment of stream-entry usually insist that a mundane (or form-sphere) jhaana must be secured before one can enter the supramundane path. Those who defend the dry-insight approach hold that a mundane jhaana is not indispensable, that a lower degree of concentration suffices as a basis for the cultivation of insight and the attainment of the path. Both parties usually agree that jhaana is part of the actual path experience itself. The issue that divides them is whether the concentration in the preliminary portion of the path must include a jhaana. To decide this question, I wish to query the texts themselves and ask whether they show us instances of stream-enterers who are not attainers of the jhaanas. Now while there are no suttas which flatly state that it is possible to become a stream-enterer without having attained at least the first jhaana, I think there are several that imply as much. (1) Let us start with the Cuu.ladukkhakkhandha Sutta (MN No. 14). The sutta opens when the Sakyan lay disciple Mahaanaama, identified by the commentary as a once-returner, comes to the Buddha and presents him with a personal problem. Although he has long understood, through the guidance of the teaching, that greed, hatred, and delusion are corruptions of the mind (cittassa upakkilesa), such states still arise in him and overpower his mind. This troubles him and makes him wonder what the underlying cause might be. In his reply the Buddha says: "Even though a noble disciple has clearly seen with perfect wisdom that sensual pleasures give little satisfaction and are fraught with suffering and misery, rife with greater danger, if he does not achieve a rapture and happiness apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states, or something more peaceful than this, then he is not beyond being enticed by sensual pleasures."[24] The first part of this statement implies that the subject is at least a stream-enterer, for he is referred to as a "noble disciple" (ariya-saavaka). Though the term ariya-saavaka is occasionally used in a loose sense that need not be taken to imply attainment of stream-entry, here the expression "seeing with perfect wisdom" seems to establish his identity as at least a stream-enterer. Yet the second part of the statement implies he does not possess even the first jhaana, for the phrase used to describe what he lacks ("a rapture and happiness apart from sensual pleasures, apart from unwholesome states") precisely echoes the wording of the basic formula for the first jhaana. The state "more peaceful than that" would, of course, be the higher jhaanas. ****** Notes 24. MN I 91. 34181 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro Hi Larry! > Is there any kusala citta in watching Rocky and Bullwinkle? Of course!!! Entirely Kammavacaara Kusala Citta ( Nina is expounding this Abdhidhamma teaching just now)...perhaps the best animated cartoon of the early sixties, with plenty of meaning even at present days. And all the Jay Ward´s off-shots like Peabody´s Improvable History, Aesop and Son, Dudley Do-Right of the Mounties, Fractured Fairy tales and so on keep the beat and rhythym intended by their creator. Watching Rocky & Bullwinkle is like appreciate Jazz or classical tunes, sipping or not (if you aren´t fond of beverages)a glass of beaujolais noveau... or a full carafe, if you like! Larry, ever forget the meaning ( you like mean so much, I see!) of Nina´s Abdhidhamma in Dairy Life... it´s not only a matter of read, appreciate and memorize Buddhaghosa´s works ( I did it with some passages of the Dhammasangani, with the best of results!!!), but see all Buddha´s teachings as an affair or relationship between your mind and the external reality out of your sense doors. I always interpreted Rocky & Bullwinkle as the relationship between the First Illuminati - Rocky - and the first acharya or guru - Bullwinkle. The main drawings of Rocky, standing on foot alone at the top of a mountain, smiling and with arms widely open, are a symbol of the first related illuminati of Índia, Rishabadev...and Bullwinkle, the Mr. Know-it-all of even season, is the image of the classical acharya. Perhaps the good and old Jay Ward didn´t conceive his characters as symbols of mindfullness, but that´s the way I see them now and ever! Mettaya, Ícaro 34182 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. 83, English Dear Larry: > Can wisdom be prompted? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- When you have got a prompted state of consciousness raised up by the sayings of your mother or father, guru or even Buddha, if these sayings are correct and adequate to the situation focused by your understanding, so you get a prompted state of mind called wisdom anyway. Buddha had stated only not getting yourself attached to wrong views or doubts, prompted or unprompted. Mettaya, Ícaro 34183 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:01am Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (12) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi The Stream-enterer and Jhaana (2) (2) At AN 5:179/III 211, the Buddha speaks, with reference to "a lay follower clothed in white" (gihii odaatavasana), of four "pleasant dwellings in this very life pertaining to the higher mind" (cattaaro aabhicetasikaa di.t.thadhamma-sukhavihaaraa). Now in relation to monks, the Nikaayas invariably use this expression to mean the four jhaanas.[25] If it were considered commonplace, or even paradigmatic, for a lay noble disciple to attain the four jhaanas, one would expect the Buddha to explain the above expression in the same way as he does for monks. But he does not. Rather, when he specifies what these "pleasant abidings" mean for the noble lay follower, he identifies them with the possession of the four "factors of stream-entry" (sotaapattiya,nga), namely, confirmed confidence in the Buddha, the Dhamma, and the Sangha, and possession of "the virtues dear to the noble ones." This difference in explanation has important ramifications and is indicative of major differences in expectations regarding lay followers and monks. (3) At AN VI 10/III 284-88, the Sakyan noble Mahaanaama again approaches the Buddha and inquires about the meditative practice of "a noble disciple who has reached the fruit and understood the message" (ariyasaavako aagataphalo vi--aatasaasano). Here again, it is clear from the epithets used that the question concerns a lay follower who has realized stream-entry or some higher stage. Further, at the end of each expository section, the Buddha stresses the ariyan stature of the disciple with the words: "This is called, Mahaanaama, a noble disciple who among unrighteous humanity has attained righteousness, who among an afflicted humanity dwells unafflicted, who has entered the stream of the Dhamma and develops recollection of the Buddha" (and so for each object of recollection).[26] In his reply the Buddha shows how the lay disciple takes up one of the six objects of recollection (cha anussati): the Three Jewels, morality, generosity, and the devas. As the disciple recollects each theme, his mind is not obsessed by lust, hatred, or delusion, but becomes upright (ujugata): "With an unright mind he gains the inspiration of the goal, the inspiration of the Dhamma, gladness connected with the Dhamma. When he is gladdened rapture arises, his body becomes tranquil, and he experiences happiness. For one who is happy the mind becomes concentrated."[27] As this passage shows, contemplation based on the Buddha (and the other objects of recollection) culminates in samaadhi, yet the nature of this samaadhi is not elucidated by way of the jhaana formula. In fact, the Nikaayas never ascribe to these reflective contemplations the capacity to induce jhaana, and this is expressly denied in the Commentaries, which hold that because these meditation subjects involve intensive use of discursive thought they can lead only as far as access concentration (upacaara-samaadhi). It thus seems that the type of concentration typically available to a lay noble disciple at the stage of stream-entry or once-returning is access concentration. This, of course, does not mean that stream-enterers and once-returners don't attain the jhaanas, but only that the standard doctrinal structure does not ascribe the jhaanas to them as essential equipment. ****** Notes 25. See, e.g., MN I 356; AN 10:8/V 11, etc. 26. AN III 285, etc.: Aya.m vuccati Mahaanaama ariyasaavako visamagataaya pajaaya samappatto viharati, savyaapajjhaaya pajaaya avyaapajjho viharati, dhammasota.m samaapanno buddhaanussati.m bhaaveti. 27. Ibid: Ujugatacitto kho pana Mahaanaama ariyasaavako labhati atthaveda.m labhati dhammaveda.m labhati dhammuupasa.mhita.m paamujja.m; pamuditassa piiti jaayati, piitimanassa kaayo passambhati; passaddhakaayo sukha.m vediyati; sukhino citta.m samaadhiyati. 34184 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:19am Subject: Relationships Hi everyone, I've just gone blank. Is there such a thing as relationships between objects in Buddhism, and if there is, under what name does it go? This is prompted by listening to some music and the identification of musical intervals. F is a 4th from C, a sixth from A, that sort of thing. Regards Herman 34185 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism. 83, Larry, Icaro typo: > Larry, ever forget the meaning ( you like mean so much, I see!) >--------------------------------------------------------------------- Larry thinks about mean every time... but the correct sentence is: "Larry, Never forget the meaning (you like mean so much, I see!) Mettaya, Ícaro 34186 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:00am Subject: Re: Complication (was Re: Dustrags) Hello Philip, Sarah, Just some comments: ===== Ph:>And indeed, it is not so much the topic of conceit that > > interests me, but unnessary complication. We are bound to think > > conceptually - we need to to survive in the world- but should it be > > encouraged as a method of right understanding? B: I agree with Sarah in that I don't see the dustrag simile being discussed as an encouragement to think conceptually or to create some new idea in our heads of a dust rag. The teaching was about humility and forgiveness. Sariputta has attained stability in the midst of injustice, remaining equananimous and unmoved by it; Similar to how a dust rag collects disgusting filth without complaint. The dustrag is the finger pointing, not the moon itself. ===== Ph:> > It just seemed to me that the whole simile of the dustrag is > > unnecessarily complicated. If we have understanding of annata and >> the other characteristics - even intellectual knowledge - why not go > > straight there? Isn't giving rise to the simile of a dustrag a kind > > of papanca that we could avoid? B: What makes it a papanca is not so much in the rising of the dustrag simile, but the prior establishment of a "self/other" belief structure that causes manifold perceptions and categories based upon and growing out of this original duality. This erroneous thought process requires the need for the arising of the dustrag simile to point us back in the direction of "ultimate realities." Thus the utility of such simile becomes apparent, albeit not in complete accordance with paramattha-dhamma. > S: Of course there can be wise and unwise reflection (i.e papanca) of > anything including dustrags. If one has the idea that one should think of > oneself as a dustrag, it might be yet another ritual and definitely a kind > of papanca, I agree. B: As do I. Well put. ===== Ph:> I will want to learn a lot more about papanca. It seems to me > to be very, very important, judging only from the wee little bit I've > read about it. To what degree is it inevitable for worldlings, and > uncontrollable. At what point does it begin to die down? How do panna > and sati work to subdue papanca, if that's the right word? B: Self-reflexive thought, as papanca is sometimes translated, is in many ways what makes us worldings. When there is identification with this category of an experiencer there naturally follows attachment to pleasant feelings, aversion to painful feelings. This identification, we are taught, is what leads to desire and is what comes into conflict with the desires of others trapped within the papanca fold. The process is curttailed when one applies appropriate attention to feeling. If instead of feeding the cycle of attachment/aversion, we break it down and look at it as part of a causual process and identify what feelings lead to kusala and which to akusala, the whole system crumbles under the power of investigation. Feelings that lead to kusala can be pursued and refined to the point where the thought processes that lead to papanca are abandoned altogether in the higher states of jhana. Ph:> Don't we all love to spin out ideas? B: I think its the greatest kilesa of 'modern' man. Too tired to spin any more. May you all be clear sighted and free from affliction. Bhinnatta --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/18/2004 34187 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 7:07am Subject: Re: Relationships Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I've just gone blank. Is there such a thing as relationships between > objects in Buddhism, and if there is, under what name does it go? > > This is prompted by listening to some music and the identification of > musical intervals. F is a 4th from C, a sixth from A, that sort of > thing. Perhaps you mean "conditions" (paccaya)? The Abhidhamma describes the conditioning states (what triggers this condition to operate) and the conditioned states (what this condition operates upon). Metta, Rob M :-) 34188 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wheel sutta Dear Agrios, A: Hi Nina. > > Is there any way I could have the first two > Dhammacakkapavattana Sutta > Anattalakkhana Sutta > and whats third? Simsapa Sutta? > > in this, "interlinear" form? > Are they also availeble in MP3 as a Pali chant > somewhere? N: I am glad you are interested. On the Pali list we do the trilineair so that beginners profit. Do you prefer that? Word by word.In this way: yehi samannaagataana.m devamanussaana.m catucakka.m vattati, by which/ possessed/ for devas and men/ four wheels/ rolls and for devas and men who possess these, fourfold prosperity is rolling on. The suttas you mentioned are long, in Samyutta Nikaya. It was suggested by the Mod we do short suttas. So Connie and I selected short ones from the Anguttara Nikaya. I do not know about chanting, it is a good way to learn suttas by heart. Nina. 34189 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 0:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Transfer of Merit Dear Rob M and friends, I remember I asked a. Sujin about this subject. She explained that these are just different degrees of results in accordance with the kammas that produced these. My conclusion: conventional names are given like hungry ghost, etc. or devas of different planes, etc. but never mind about all those names. I find it helpful to just think of the paramattha dhammas represented by those names. Those are the realities. Then there is no place for doubts. Nina op 25-06-2004 09:15 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > What I don't disbelieve is the various planes existing as described. > Specifically, is there really a hungry ghost plane where beings can > benefit from our wishing them well? My answer is, "I don't > disbelieve." 34190 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 0:46pm Subject: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Dear Icaro, you refered to it that you before gave me the eight lobhamulacittas instead of kusala cittas. Please can you give me now the eight kamaavacaara kusala cittas. Next week Larry and I are at Vis. 84, and this deals with some of them. It is a good check for the reader to have them all once again. You can help me with kusala citta! Thanks, Nina. P.S. You watch cartoons and Lodewijk watches Duch soccer (against Sweden). I reminded him that he sees only colour and he said: he sees movement. I answered, no, movement is only through the bodysense, you cannot see it. Close your eyes, there is nothing at all. Open them, how can motion impinge on the eyesense. When you watch cartoons, there are many lobhamulacittas and also dosa mulacittas, but in between there may be kusala cittas with understanding of paramattha dhammas. 34191 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 2:05pm Subject: Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Dear Nina: Please can you give me now the eight kamaavacaara kusala > cittas. Next week Larry and I are at Vis. 84, and this deals with some of > them. It is a good check for the reader to have them all once again. You can > help me with kusala citta! Thanks, ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I do love the Dhammasangani!!! You get the Kamaavacaara Kusala Cittas only here at my hand!!!! " Papahetukamuttani-Sobhanani´ti vuccare Ek´una satthicittani/ Ath´ekanavuti´pi va - attha Kamavacara Kusala Cittani: 1) somanassa-sahagatam anasampayuttam, asankharikam ekam 2)Somanassa-sahagatam anasampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam 3) somanassa -sahagatam anavippayuttam asankharikam ekam 4) somanassa-sahagatam anavippayutam sasankharikam ekam 5) Upekkhasahagatam anasampayuttam asankharikam ekam 6) Upekkhasahagatam anasampayuttam sasankharikam ekam 7) Upekkhasahagatam anavippayutam asankharikam ekam 8) Upekkhasahagatam anavippayutam sasankharikam ekam´ti Imani attha´pi Kamavacarakusalacittani nama" well, that´s it! the translation I will give you later soon!!! > Nina. > P.S. You watch cartoons and Lodewijk watches Duch soccer (against Sweden). Great Cartoon!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- I > answered, no, movement is only through the bodysense, you cannot see it. > Close your eyes, there is nothing at all. Open them, how can motion impinge > on the eyesense. When you watch cartoons, there are many lobhamulacittas and > also dosa mulacittas, but in between there may be kusala cittas with > understanding of paramattha dhammas. --------------------------------------------------------------------- A scene of Rocky & Bullwinkle: (Rocky): What´s the lesson today ? Bullwinkle is a dope ? (Bullwinkle): Not that lesson!!! This lesson !!! ( Bullwinkle hits the blackboard, that begins to spin out, compounding an illusory image of a cartoon inside a cartoon!!! As you said, close your eyes, there´s nothing at all, open them and you get motion at eyesense) mettaya, Ícaro 34192 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 3:31pm Subject: Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > P.S. Lodewijk watches Duch soccer (against Sweden). I > reminded him that he sees only colour and he said: he sees movement. I > answered, no, movement is only through the bodysense, you cannot see it. > Close your eyes, there is nothing at all. Open them, how can motion impinge > on the eyesense. When you watch cartoons, there are many lobhamulacittas and > also dosa mulacittas, but in between there may be kusala cittas with > understanding of paramattha dhammas. Reading this note from you caused me to reflect on the Bhadraka Sutta (SN XVII.11). In this Sutta, the Buddha explained that craving is a source of suffering (dukkha). We experience dukkha when those to whom we are attached experience problems. We do not experience dukkha when those to whom we are not attached experience problems. Therefore, attachment is a cause of dukkha. I am not attached to soccer and I am not attached to either team, so whatever the outcome, I will not experience dukkha (that was before I read your message). When you mentioned that Lodewijk was watching the game, my perspective changed. Now I was attached to the Dutch side and I wanted them to win because I care about the temporary emotional state of one of their millions of fans. I was setting myself up for dukkha or an equally transitory sukha. We truly are our own worst enemies. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: I just checked the score; looks like it is sukha (at least this time). Please congratulate Lodewijk for me :-) 34193 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 3:56pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Rob, That's why I said I had gone blank :-). I thought of paccaya when I was ruminating, and couldn't see how paccaya could determine differences in pitch, or shades of anything. Perhaps you can help? Herman -----Original Message----- From: robmoult [mailto:rob.moult@j...] Sent: Sunday, 27 June 2004 12:07 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I've just gone blank. Is there such a thing as relationships between > objects in Buddhism, and if there is, under what name does it go? > > This is prompted by listening to some music and the identification of > musical intervals. F is a 4th from C, a sixth from A, that sort of > thing. Perhaps you mean "conditions" (paccaya)? The Abhidhamma describes the conditioning states (what triggers this condition to operate) and the conditioned states (what this condition operates upon). Metta, Rob M :-) 34194 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 3:58pm Subject: Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Nina, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > > P.S. Lodewijk watches Duch soccer (against Sweden). I > > reminded him that he sees only colour and he said: he sees > movement. I > > answered, no, movement is only through the bodysense, you cannot > see it. > > Close your eyes, there is nothing at all. Open them, how can motion > impinge > > on the eyesense. When you watch cartoons, there are many > lobhamulacittas and > > also dosa mulacittas, but in between there may be kusala cittas with > > understanding of paramattha dhammas. > > Reading this note from you caused me to reflect on the Bhadraka Sutta > (SN XVII.11). In this Sutta, the Buddha explained that craving is a > source of suffering (dukkha). We experience dukkha when those to whom > we are attached experience problems. We do not experience dukkha when > those to whom we are not attached experience problems. Therefore, > attachment is a cause of dukkha. > ===== A further reflection on the same Sutta reminded me of another important point. At the beginning of this Sutta, Bhadraka the headman approaches the Buddha and asks the Buddha to explain the origination and ending of stress. The Buddha's reply is interesting: "Headman, if I were to teach you the origination & ending of stress with reference to the past, saying, 'Thus it was in the past,' you would be doubtful and perplexed. If I were to teach you the origination & ending of stress with reference to the future, saying, 'Thus it will be in the future,' you would be doubtful and perplexed. So instead, I -- sitting right here -- will teach you sitting right there the origination & ending of stress. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." The Buddha seems to be saying that we can understand the origination and ending of stress by only considering the present. Nina, you recently posted a message to me on petas saying that your approach is to focus on the paramattha dhammas of the present and therefore the issue of petas (and planes of existence) is not a big issue for you. This reminds me of a story. Two monks were arguing: Monk 1: The Buddha taught about rebirth, so it is important to study and learn this topic. Monk 2: Rebirth is in the future. It is not in the present moment. The Buddha taught us to fix our mind in the present moment. Monk 1: We cannot agree, let's go see the abbot. Monk 1: The Buddha taught about rebirth, so it is important to study and learn this topic. Abbot: You are correct! Monk 2: Rebirth is in the future. It is not in the present moment. The Buddha taught us to fix our mind in the present moment. Abbot: You are correct! Monk 1 & Monk 2 (together): We can't both be correct! Abbot: You are correct! From this, I interpret that there are many aspects of the Buddha's teaching. Some will appeal to some students (because of their accumulations) and some will appeal to other students (because of their accumulations). As long as it is in the Suttas, we should judge it as valid teaching having value to some group of students. The Buddha made it clear that he did not include unnecessary stuff in his teaching. This is why I don't want to get drawn into the formal meditation argument. Metta, Rob M :-) 34195 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:16pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > That's why I said I had gone blank :-). I thought of paccaya when I was > ruminating, and couldn't see how paccaya could determine differences in > pitch, or shades of anything. > > Perhaps you can help? ===== Firstly, we must make sure that what we are talking about falls under the scope of the Buddha's teachings. Musical theory is clearly outside the scope. In the Simsapa Sutta (SN LVI.31), the Buddha explains the purpose of the teaching: "Why have I left [answers to speculative questions] undeclared? Because it is unbeneficial, it does not belong to the fundamentals of the holy life, it does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have left it undeclared. And what have I declared? 'This is suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the origin of suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the cessation of suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the way to the cessation of suffering' - I have declared. Why have I declared that? Because it is beneficial, it belongs to the fundamentals of the holy life, it leads to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have declared it." In the Abhidhammatthasangaha, the paccaya are grouped into six categories: - Mind as a condition for mind - Mind as a condition for mind-and-matter - Mind as a condition for matter - Matter as a condition for mind - Concepts and mind-and-matter as a condition for mind - Mind-and-matter as a condition for mind-and-matter The commentary (not the Suttas) add a term "niyama" to describe "laws of nature": - Utu-niyama governs temperature, seasons and other physical events - Bija-niyama governs plant life - Kamma-niyama - Citta-niyama governs the sequence of arising of cittas - Dhamma-niyama (other stuff such as the events that must occur in the life of a Buddha) I am not aware of any detailed discussion of the niyama in the canon. Does this help? Metta, Rob M :-) 34196 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Hi Nina, I know you don't like debating, this is just an expansion :-) You told Lodewijk he sees only colour (a sea of orange this time). But if that was the end of it, there would be no thought of motion. What is observed between seeing colour and thinking motion is seeing *change*. Now, it would interest me to read whether change is seen or thought. Hup Hup Holland Herman -----Original Message----- From: nina van gorkom [mailto:nilo@e...] Sent: Sunday, 27 June 2004 5:47 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Dear Icaro, you refered to it that you before gave me the eight lobhamulacittas instead of kusala cittas. Please can you give me now the eight kamaavacaara kusala cittas. Next week Larry and I are at Vis. 84, and this deals with some of them. It is a good check for the reader to have them all once again. You can help me with kusala citta! Thanks, Nina. P.S. You watch cartoons and Lodewijk watches Duch soccer (against Sweden). I reminded him that he sees only colour and he said: he sees movement. I answered, no, movement is only through the bodysense, you cannot see it. Close your eyes, there is nothing at all. Open them, how can motion impinge on the eyesense. When you watch cartoons, there are many lobhamulacittas and also dosa mulacittas, but in between there may be kusala cittas with understanding of paramattha dhammas. 34197 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 4:24pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Rob, I know anicca is discussed an awful lot in the canon. So we can keep the discussion relevant to the forum. I think my question can be boiled down to the perception of change. Can/Does paccaya explain change in any phenomena, and the perception of that change? Thanks Herman -----Original Message----- From: robmoult [mailto:rob.moult@j...] Sent: Sunday, 27 June 2004 9:16 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > That's why I said I had gone blank :-). I thought of paccaya when I was > ruminating, and couldn't see how paccaya could determine differences in > pitch, or shades of anything. > > Perhaps you can help? ===== Firstly, we must make sure that what we are talking about falls under the scope of the Buddha's teachings. Musical theory is clearly outside the scope. In the Simsapa Sutta (SN LVI.31), the Buddha explains the purpose of the teaching: "Why have I left [answers to speculative questions] undeclared? Because it is unbeneficial, it does not belong to the fundamentals of the holy life, it does not lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have left it undeclared. And what have I declared? 'This is suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the origin of suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the cessation of suffering' - I have declared. 'This is the way to the cessation of suffering' - I have declared. Why have I declared that? Because it is beneficial, it belongs to the fundamentals of the holy life, it leads to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to peace, to direct knowledge, to enlightenment, to Nibbana. That is why I have declared it." In the Abhidhammatthasangaha, the paccaya are grouped into six categories: - Mind as a condition for mind - Mind as a condition for mind-and-matter - Mind as a condition for matter - Matter as a condition for mind - Concepts and mind-and-matter as a condition for mind - Mind-and-matter as a condition for mind-and-matter The commentary (not the Suttas) add a term "niyama" to describe "laws of nature": - Utu-niyama governs temperature, seasons and other physical events - Bija-niyama governs plant life - Kamma-niyama - Citta-niyama governs the sequence of arising of cittas - Dhamma-niyama (other stuff such as the events that must occur in the life of a Buddha) I am not aware of any detailed discussion of the niyama in the canon. Does this help? Metta, Rob M :-) 34198 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I know anicca is discussed an awful lot in the canon. So we can keep the > discussion relevant to the forum. I think my question can be boiled down > to the perception of change. Can/Does paccaya explain change in any > phenomena, and the perception of that change? Paccaya works at a more fundamental level than this. These conditions link paramattha dhammas with other paramattha dhammas (the exception being that certain strong past concepts can act as a conditioning state for the current mental state through natural decisive support condition). Let us consider the commentary to the Mulapariyaya Sutta (Mn 1). This Sutta explains the difference in patterns of thought between the uninstructed worldling (that's us), the learner (Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami), the Arahant and the Buddha. According to this Sutta, the thinking process of the uninstructed worldling gets all messed up "because he has not fully understood". The commentary explains that "fully understanding" involves three progressive stages: - the full understanding of the known (nataparinna): gross object is broken into paramattha dhammas and the distinct characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause are known - the full understanding of scrutinization (tiranaparinna): the paramattaha dhammas are investigated in terms of the three general characterisitics (tilakkhana) of anicca, dukkha and anatta - the full understanding of abandoning (pahanaparinna): the desire and lust for objects of congnition are eliminated Note that the three general characterisitics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) are not paramattha dhammas. Therefore they are not conditioned according to paccaya. If you are talking about perception of change (such as players moving about on the soccer pitch) then this is completely different from a perception of anicca. If you are asking about what are the conditions for the perception of anicca, by quick answer (I am running out to teach my class) is the seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga): - Mindfulness - Investigation - Energy - Rapture - Tranquillity - Concentration - Equanimity Metta, Rob M :-) 34199 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:22pm Subject: Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Dear Nina: (Narrator voice at VOYAGER episodes): "And now, the conclusion" Translating the Kamaavacaara Kusala Suttas we get: > Ath´ekanavuti´pi va - attha Kamavacara Kusala Cittani: Eight Types of Moral Consciousness of the sensuous sphere > > 1) somanassa-sahagatam anasampayuttam, asankharikam ekam 1) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with pleasure, and connected with knowledge > 2)Somanassa-sahagatam anasampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam 2) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with pleasure, and connected with knowledge > 3) somanassa -sahagatam anavippayuttam asankharikam ekam 3) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with pleasure, and no-connected with knowledge > 4) somanassa-sahagatam anavippayutam sasankharikam ekam 4) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with pleasure, and no-connected with knowledge > 5) Upekkhasahagatam anasampayuttam asankharikam ekam 5) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with indifference, and connected with knowledge > 6) Upekkhasahagatam anasampayuttam sasankharikam ekam 6) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with indifference, and connected with knowledge > 7) Upekkhasahagatam anavippayutam asankharikam ekam 7) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with indifference, and no-connected with knowledge > 8) Upekkhasahagatam anavippayutam sasankharikam ekam´ti 8) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with indifference, and no-connected with knowledge > > Imani attha´pi Kamavacarakusalacittani nama" Now Good Rob M and Herman can handle a candle for me...HAHAHAHAH!!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34200 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 5:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Relationships Dear Rob M > The commentary explains that "fully understanding" involves three > progressive stages: > - the full understanding of the known (nataparinna): gross object is > broken into paramattha dhammas and the distinct characteristic, > function, manifestation and proximate cause are known > - the full understanding of scrutinization (tiranaparinna): the > paramattaha dhammas are investigated in terms of the three general > characterisitics (tilakkhana) of anicca, dukkha and anatta > - the full understanding of abandoning (pahanaparinna): the desire > and lust for objects of congnition are eliminated > > Note that the three general characterisitics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) > are not paramattha dhammas. Therefore they are not conditioned > according to paccaya. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Exact!!! there were some discussion in some posts about it: if either Dukkha, anicca and Anatta were Paramattha Dhammas or not. the last issue about the matter suggests that even the Paramattha Dhammas lies only at an intellective discourse level of understanding and that could be abandoned at the end of the road. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > If you are talking about perception of change (such as players moving > about on the soccer pitch) then this is completely different from a > perception of anicca. > > If you are asking about what are the conditions for the perception of > anicca, by quick answer (I am running out to teach my class) is the > seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga): > - Mindfulness > - Investigation > - Energy > - Rapture > - Tranquillity > - Concentration > - Equanimity ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Well posed as usual, RobMoult !!! mettaya, Ícaro 34201 From: agriosinski Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 9:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Wheel sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: [...] > N: I am glad you are interested. On the Pali list we do the trilineair so > that beginners profit. Do you prefer that? Word by word.In this way: > yehi samannaagataana.m devamanussaana.m catucakka.m vattati, > by which/ possessed/ for devas and men/ four wheels/ rolls > and for devas and men who possess these, fourfold prosperity is rolling on. That would be just perfect. Where is this Pali list? > The suttas you mentioned are long, in Samyutta Nikaya. It was suggested by > the Mod we do short suttas. So Connie and I selected short ones from the > Anguttara Nikaya. > I do not know about chanting, it is a good way to learn suttas by heart. > Nina. This is my intention :) Are you having one of these supernatural powers? ;) metta, Agrios 34202 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jun 26, 2004 11:50pm Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (13) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi The Stream-enterer and Jhaana (3) (4) Nor does the above sutta imply that a lay stream-enterer must remain content merely with excursions into access concentration and cannot develop the higher wisdom of insight. To the contrary, the Buddha includes the higher wisdom among the five excellent qualities he regularly ascribes to noble lay disciples: faith, virtue, learning, generosity, and wisdom.[28] In several suttas of the Sotaapatti-sa.myutta, generosity and wisdom even replace virtue as the fourth factor of stream-entry, faith being included by "confirmed confidence" in the Three Jewels.[29] We should note that we do not find among these qualities any mention of samaadhi or a formula for the jhaanas. Yet we see that wisdom is defined in exactly the same terms used to define the wisdom of a monk in training (sekha). It is "the noble wisdom that discerns the arising and passing away of things, that is noble and penetrative and leads to the complete destruction of suffering."[30] Since the lay stream-enterer or once-returner is thus well equipped with the wisdom of insight but is not typically described as a jhaana attainer, this implies that attainment of jhaana is not normally expected or required of him. From this we can also conclude that at these early stages of the path liberative wisdom does not depend on a supporting base of jhaana. (5) A text in the Sotaapatti-sa.myutta gives credit to this conclusion. At SN 55:40/V 398-99, the Buddha explains to the Sakyan Nandiya how a noble disciple dwells diligently (ariyasaavako appamaadavihaarii). He says that a noble disciple should not become complacent about possessing the four factors of stream-entry but should use these qualities as starting points for contemplation: "He is not content with his confirmed confidence in the Buddha (etc.), but strives further in seclusion by day and in retreat by night. As he dwells diligently, gladness arises ... (as above) ... for one who is happy the mind becomes concentrated. When the mind is concentrated, phenomena become manifest. It is with the manifestation of phenomena to him that he is reckoned as 'one who dwells diligently.'"[31] The expression "manifestation of phenomena" (dhammaana.m paatubhaava) indicates that the disciple is engaged in contemplating the rise and fall of the five aggregates, the six sense bases, and so forth. Thus this passage shows how the disciple proceeds from concentration to insight, but it does not describe this concentration in terms suggesting it occurs at the level of jhaana. Since the sequence switches over from concentration to insight without mentioning jhaana, it seems that the concentration attained will be tantamount to access concentration, not jhaana, yet even this suffices to support the arising of insight. ****** Notes 28. Saddhaa, siila, suta, caaga, pa--aa. Sometimes learning is omitted, since this is not as integral to the ariyan character as the other four qualities. 29. See SN 55:32-33, 42-43; V 391-92, 401-2. 30. Udayatthagaaminiyaa pa--aaya samannaagato ariyaaya nibbedhikaaya sammaadukkhakkhaya-gaaminiyaa. 31. SN V 398-99: Idha Nandiya ariyasaavako Buddhe aveccappasaadena samannaagato hoti ... So tena Buddhe aveccappasaadena asantu.t.tho uttari.m vaayamati divaa pavivekaaya ratti.m pa.tisallaanaaya. Tassa eva.m appamattassa viharato paamujja.m jaayati ... sukhino citta.m samaadhiyati. Samaahite citte dhammaa paatubhavanti. Dhammaana.m paatubhaavaa appamaadavihaarii tveva sa,nkha.m gacchati.... Eva.m kho Nandiya ariyasaavako appamaadavihaarii hoti. 34203 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 1:57am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Rob, Some more questions follow from what you have written. ================================================ R> Paccaya works at a more fundamental level than this. These conditions link paramattha dhammas with other paramattha dhammas (the exception being that certain strong past concepts can act as a conditioning state for the current mental state through natural decisive support condition). Let us consider the commentary to the Mulapariyaya Sutta (Mn 1). This Sutta explains the difference in patterns of thought between the uninstructed worldling (that's us), the learner (Sotapanna, Sakadagami, Anagami), the Arahant and the Buddha. According to this Sutta, the thinking process of the uninstructed worldling gets all messed up "because he has not fully understood". The commentary explains that "fully understanding" involves three progressive stages: - the full understanding of the known (nataparinna): gross object is broken into paramattha dhammas and the distinct characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause are known - the full understanding of scrutinization (tiranaparinna): the paramattaha dhammas are investigated in terms of the three general characterisitics (tilakkhana) of anicca, dukkha and anatta - the full understanding of abandoning (pahanaparinna): the desire and lust for objects of congnition are eliminated ====================================================== H> When you write that gross object is broken into paramattha dhammas, and the function, manifestation and proximate cause are known, are you referring to the function etc of the gross object, or of the paramattha dhamma. Clearly different combinations of elements can have functions and qualities not found in the elements themselves. The pile of chariot bits cannot be known as a means of transport, neither can hydrogen or oxygen singly be known for their liquidity. Recently there was some discussion about the body as a series of tubes. Clearly, tubes can function very differently from whatever goes to make up the tubes. ===================================================== R> Note that the three general characterisitics (anicca, dukkha, anatta) are not paramattha dhammas. Therefore they are not conditioned according to paccaya. If you are talking about perception of change (such as players moving about on the soccer pitch) then this is completely different from a perception of anicca. ===================================================== H> Are you here asking me to note a certain definition of the three general characteristics, or are you asking me to observe something observable and common to all observable dhammas in general? Also, would you be so kind as to explain how the perception of change is different to the perception of anicca? ===================================================== I hope you learned something in class today :-) Herman Metta, Rob M :-) 34204 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:54am Subject: corrections wheel sutta Dear Sarah, A very kind Bhante is helping me on the Pali list with the Wheel sutta and has some suggestions and corrections. But I still have problems to be solved. I do not know whether you can wait having this sutta put into the archives. I do not know how it all works, but I understand that corrections later on are always difficult to add. I wish you both a very good trip with your mother, near Zermatt?. Nina. 34205 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Qu. Tiika Vis. 83 Hi Larry, op 26-06-2004 03:16 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Does kusala citta accompanied by equanimity necessarily have a desirable > object? N: As I translated in the Tiika 83: From this we can conclude that the object can also be undesirable. Kusala citta can have a desirable object or undesirable object. See the many suttas, where there can, in the case of such objects, be wise attention or unwise attention. See further comments below. L: Another question: if panna contemplating dukkha is accompanied by joy > then the object must be the insight itself, correct? N: when pañña contemplates dukkha, it contemplates the dukkha *of* a nama or a rupa, not dukkha tout court. It realizes their dukkha nature. It can be accompanied by joy or by indifferent feeling, depending on conditions. It can be any nama or rupa that appears, thus also pañña but not necessarily so. I do not see the connection between joy and insight itself. L: Can wisdom be prompted?> N: Yes, any kind of kaamaavacara kusala is prompted or unprompted. In Vis. 84 more is said. And in my Intro I shall mention it again. The Co to Abhidhammattha Sangaha says more. I just quote part: Further on it speaks about hesitatingly with restricted generosity... One's former accumulations play their part. Generosity may not be strong, due to accumulations, or rather, the lack of it. A complicated subject and this Co gives more interpretations whether it is to be seen as from what is preceding or from the point of view of the moment. The Atth speaks about the totality of causes. It also gives many examples of each of the ten puññakiriyavatthu, meritorious deeds. Prompted/unprompted tells us something about the quality of the kusala citta, but it is hard to know as to oneself. We can know roughly, by inference, by reasoning later on. That goes for desirable object, for the feeling, for: with pañña or without it. There are so many cittas and we can easily confuse them. Say, I explain with joy Abhidhamma to others, but this is not kusala joy all the time. How easily can lobha with or without conceit arise, also accompanied by joy. Only developed insight can know precisely. And again, not without foregoing a deeper knowledge of the characteristics of nama and rupa. Desirable object: who can know, the cittas are so fast. Objects through the sensedoors and the mind-door just appearing for a moment, rapidly changing. There can be compassion when someonbe suffers. He has a bad smell. At first aversion may arise, and then? We may think of the Buddha, his Dhamma and the citta changes already. Is the object still smell? Or once again smell but now with right attention? How could we point out all this? Not without developing insight that has precise understanding of the dhamma appearing right then and there. The more I reflect, the more complex I find this subject. Nina. 34206 From: sarah abbott Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 3:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (14) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi When Do the Jhaanas Become Necessary? (1) While there seem to be no suttas that impose an inflexible rule to the effect that a lay noble disciple must possess the jhaanas, there are at least two texts that explicitly ascribe all four jhaanas to certain householders. One, found in the Citta-sa.myutta (SN 41:9/IV 300-2), features Citta the householder, the foremost lay preacher, in a conversation with a naked ascetic named Kassapa. Kassapa was an old friend of Citta who had embraced the life of renunciation thirty years earlier, and this is apparently their first meeting since that time. Kassapa confesses to Citta that in all these years he has not achieved any "superhuman distinction in knowledge and vision befitting the noble ones" (uttarimanussadhammaa alamariya--aa.nadassanavisesa); all he does is go about naked, with a shaved head, using a feather brush to sweep his seat. He then asks Citta whether, as a lay disciple of the Buddha, he has reached any distinguished attainments. Citta says that he has, and then declares his ability to enter and dwell in the four jhaanas (he uses the standard formula). To this he adds: "Further, if I were to die before the Blessed One, it would not be surprising if the Blessed One would declare of me: 'There is no fetter bound by which Citta the householder might come back to this world.'"[32] Through this bit of coded text, partly a stock formulation, Citta is informing his friend that he is a non-returner with access to the four jhaanas. The other sutta is AN 7:50/IV 66-67 and concerns the lay woman Nandamaataa. In the presence of the Venerable Saariputta and other monks, Nandamaataa has been disclosing the seven wonderful and marvellous qualities with which she is endowed. The sixth of these is possession of the four jhaanas, again described by the stock formula. The seventh is as follows: "As to the five lower fetters taught by the the Blessed One, I do not see among them any as yet unabandoned in myself."[33] This too is a coded way of declaring her status as a non-returner. ****** Notes 32. Spk IV 301: Sace kho pan'aaha.m bhante Bhagavato pa.thamatara.m kaala.m kareyya anacchariya.m kho pan'eta.m ya.m ma.m Bhagavaa eta.m vyaakareyya, Natthi ta.m sa--ojana.m yena sa--ojanena sa.myutto Citto gahapati puna ima.m loka.m aagaccheyyaa ti. 33. AN IV 67: Yaaniimaani bhante Bhagavataa desitaani pa-c'orambhaagiyaani sa.myojanaani, naaha.m tesa.m ki-ci attani appahiina.m samanupassaamii ti. 34207 From: jonoabb Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 5:50am Subject: [dsg] Re:Dhamma practice. Hi, Nina Thanks for your comments. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Jon, > I would like to add something to your excellent analysis. > It is very necessary to develop all good qualities such as the perfections, > in alternation with satipatthana. We have many defilements accumulated and > thus, we need all possibly help we can, we should not neglect any means to > weaken defilements on our long, long journey. The Brahmaviharas, for > example, help very much in our everyday social life, and these can be > together with satipatthana. During all those moments we are thinking of > persons (we do anyway) the brahmaviharas are most helpful for kusala in > thought, speech and action. So, practice in accordance with the dhamma as > you explained the other day, also includes the development of all good > qualities. As A. Sujin often remarks, they are all accumulated as > sankharakkhandha and will eventually bear fruit. Yes, so much of our day is spent in contact with, or thinking of, other persons, and if at such moments there is not one or other of the Brahma-viharas then the citta is bound to be akusala. This is a rather sobering realization, for me at least. It makes me realise how strong in fact are the accumulated tendencies for akusala and how weak for kusala. > You quoted with reference to practice in accordance with the > dhamma:<"Bhikkhus, when a bhikkhu is practising in accordance with the > Dhamma, > this is what accords with the dhamma: he should dwell engrossed in > revulsion towards form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and > consciousness.> When we read about revulsion, we can think of renunciation, > nekkhamma, and not just with reference to the bhikkhu life. Through > Satipatthana there will be detachment from the khandhas, but also each form > of kusala is actually renunciation. You renounce your own selfishness. This > should really appear in our personal life and in our social contacts. This > is difficult but we can develop it very gradually. It is useful to see this sort of connection between different parts of the teachings (satipatthana and the perfections). Seeing the teachings in its different aspects helps us get a better understanding of the Buddha's message. > We can develop good qualities not with a desire to have more sati, and not > because we have to follow a rule, then the purpose is not right, we are > still clinging to self. The goal should be to have less defilements. The > development of all kinds of kusala makes us less neglectful, less > forgetful, and on the other hand, satipatthana conditions the development of > them. Through satipatthana there will be less inclination to perform kusala > . Yes, purity of purpose is important. Of course, it is inevitable that there will be a lot of the idea of performing kusala for our own sake, but over time and with honesty towards oneself such moments can also be seen more clearly for what they are. Thanks very much for these comments and reminders. Jon 34208 From: jonoabb Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] oral tradition Hi, Herman I'm rather late coming in here, but not too late, i hope. ;-)) ---- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: ... > I am happy that you are satisfied that you have a very accurate record > of what was said, but I feel no such assurance. But, happily, I do not > think it is that important an issue. ... > The value of each teaching, to me, lies not in its historical > authenticity. A teaching comes to life when, on following its advice, it > gives rise to the fruit it said it would. If the following of a teaching gives rise to the fruit that it said it would, then that would tend to demonstrate the accuracy of the teaching as recorded. Authenticity and accuracy are important, in my view, because without a reliable external guide one is left to rely on one's own innate understanding, which means in effect that one is governed by wrong view. But of course nothing should ever be 'taken on faith', even where accuracy is (reasonably) assumed. On the other hand, where by following the advice of a teaching one has come to understand something of value confidence then it is surely only appropriate for that to be acknowledged. I have noticed that some people seem to take the view that what they have learnt from contact with the teachings is pretty much self-evident and would have been realised in due course anyway, or even that what they have learnt has in fact been self-discovered and that the teachings are little more than a handy point of reference serving to confirm the extent of their ongoing development. They are inclined to play down the role of the teachings in what they have come to understand. Jon 34209 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:13am Subject: [dsg] Re: Wheel sutta Dear Agriosinski: > That would be just perfect. > Where is this Pali list? ---------------------------------------------------------------------- You can gather up all Pali information in many sources on net. One of my favourite ones is the www.tipitaka.org, where you´ll find all Pali tipitaka, complete and unabridged, with the Tiikas, or commentaries , included. Other source that can be useful is the material on www.metta.lk, that´s included besides all tipitaka many pali texts on poetry, classical grammar and rethorics. if you are learned on german language ( not my business, I can guarantee you!) you´ll find on Web the classical Visuddhimagga complete on these language. Differences ? The texts on www.tipitaka.org is more readable than www.metta.lk´s... but you first must download the Pali fonts ; Norman, velthius or others, to best reading! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > This is my intention :) > Are you having one of these supernatural powers? > ;) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I´ve got many Dudley Do-right and Rocky & Bullwinkle cartoon episodes recorded on VHS...but is not pali canonical at all!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34210 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 6:26am Subject: Re: ¦^ÂСGRe: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re: Liberated in bothways(was, ¦^ÂСG?^???G...) Dear Tungkuen --- Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > Dear jon ... > According to the definition of Ubhatobhagavimutta in commentaries, > perhaps those ariyas who attain the formless attainments only after > their achievement of arahantship could also be called as ¡¥liberated in > both ways¡¦ > > Sv vol. 2 p.104; vol. 3 p.72: > Ubhatobhaagavimuttoti dviihi bhaagehi vimutto, aruupasamaapattiyaa > ruupakaayato vimutto, maggena naamakaayato vimuttoti. > > ¡¥Ubhatobhaagavimutto¡¦ is ¡¥one liberated from two parts¡¦, one > liberated from both the assembly of body by formless attainments and the > assembly of mind by the [consciousness of] Path. > > In Sv-pt vol. 3 p. 72, three definitions are given: > > 1. Samaapattiyaa vikkhambhanavimokkhena, maggena samucchedavimokkhena > vimuttattaa ubhatobhaagavimutto > 2. Naamakaayato, ruupakaayato ca vimuttattaa ubhatobhaagavimutto > 3. samaapattiyaa vikhambhanavimokkhena ekavaaram. Vimuttova maggena > samucchedavimokkhena ekavaaram vimuttattaa ubhatobhaagavimutto > > 1. Because one is liberated in the form of both the liberation of > ¡¥oppression by [formless] attainments¡¦ and the liberation of > ¡¥abolishment by the Path¡¦, he is one liberated in both ways. ¡K > 2. Because one is liberated from the assembly of body and mind, he is > one liberated in both ways. ¡K > 3. Because one is on one occasion liberated in the form of the > liberation of oppression by [formless] attainments ,and on another > occasion liberated in the form of the liberation of abolishment by the > Path, he is one liberated in both ways. > > Nevertheless, it's true that the commentaries mention clearly only 5 > types of Ubhatobhagavimutta. I am inclined to think that the term 'liberated-in-both-ways' is meant to describe the circumstances under which final enlightenment has been attained. The implication is, I think, that final enlightenment with the formless attainments as basis is a superior class of final enlightenment, and the person who so becomes enlightened is a superior class of being. The arahant who can also attain the formless attainments but for whom those attainments did not form the basis for the attainment of arahantship, is not a superior class of being in the same sense. His liberation as an arahant was in one way only. The liberation he may experience from time to time by virtue of the formless attainments only occurs at actual moments of experiencing those attainments. Just my thoughts, but I haven't studied the relevant texts in the detail you have! Jon 34211 From: Philip Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 7:50am Subject: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment (was([dsg] Re: Relationships Hello Rob, and all The following is from Rob, in the "relationships" thread: > If you are asking about what are the conditions for the perception of > anicca, by quick answer (I am running out to teach my class) is the > seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga): > - Mindfulness > - Investigation > - Energy > - Rapture > - Tranquillity > - Concentration > - Equanimity Ph: It occured to me to ask/wonder how wisdom (panna) wouldn't be a factor of enlightenmnt. Would panna arise with the arising of factors alone or in certain combinations? Wisdom *is* one of the five faculties. (strengths?) I know for example that confidence/faith had best arise together with wisdom. But what is the relationship between wisdom and the factors of enlightenment? Thank you, as always. Very grateful for all the guidance I'm receiving from DSG. Metta, Phil 34212 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:dukkha and soccer. Hi Rob M, Thanks for your posts, good for reflection. op 27-06-2004 00:31 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: >> P.S. Lodewijk watches Duch soccer (against Sweden).... > > Reading this note from you caused me to reflect on the Bhadraka Sutta > (SN XVII.11). In this Sutta, the Buddha explained that craving is a > source of suffering (dukkha). We experience dukkha when those to whom > we are attached experience problems. We do not experience dukkha when > those to whom we are not attached experience problems. Therefore, > attachment is a cause of dukkha. > > I am not attached to soccer and I am not attached to either team, so > whatever the outcome, I will not experience dukkha (that was before I > read your message). N: Dukkha has so many meanings here you mean: unpleasant feeling I think. I do not like the transl. of ATI: stress. Same ideas about soccer as you, no time, but I saw the very end and like this. I can appreciate good quality in sports. You said: we are attached experience problems. We do not experience dukkha when > those to whom we are not attached experience problems. Therefore, > attachment is a cause of dukkha.> The last sentence has a different meaning, it pertains to the dukkha of being in the cycle, not to unpleasant feeling or what we call suffering. As to the first case: there can be equanimity when we see the uselessness of unpleasant feeling and of aversion about what cannot be changed. But how difficult! R: When you mentioned that Lodewijk was watching the > game, my perspective changed. Now I was attached to the Dutch side > and I wanted them to win because I care about the temporary emotional > state of one of their millions of fans. I was setting myself up for > dukkha or an equally transitory sukha. We truly are our own worst > enemies. ;-)) > PS: I just checked the score; looks like it is sukha (at least this > time). Please congratulate Lodewijk for me :-) N: ;-)) He thanks you for your kind interest. It is only quarter finals, still a long way to the finals. Nina. 34213 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Dear Icaro, thank you, that is your kusala citta. Only the Pali symbols: anasampayuttam should be: ñaa.nasampayutta.m We should get the correct signs of Velthuis for Email. Nina. op 27-06-2004 02:22 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > > >> Ath´ekanavuti´pi va - attha Kamavacara Kusala Cittani: > > Eight Types of Moral Consciousness of the sensuous sphere >> >> 1) somanassa-sahagatam anasampayuttam, asankharikam ekam > 1) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with pleasure, > and connected with knowledge > >> 2)Somanassa-sahagatam anasampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam > 2) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with pleasure, > and connected with knowledge > >> 3) somanassa -sahagatam anavippayuttam asankharikam ekam > 3) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with pleasure, > and no-connected with knowledge > >> 4) somanassa-sahagatam anavippayutam sasankharikam ekam > 4) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with pleasure, > and no-connected with knowledge > >> 5) Upekkhasahagatam anasampayuttam asankharikam ekam > 5) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with > indifference, and connected with knowledge > >> 6) Upekkhasahagatam anasampayuttam sasankharikam ekam > 6) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with > indifference, and connected with knowledge > >> 7) Upekkhasahagatam anavippayutam asankharikam ekam > 7) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with > indifference, and no-connected with knowledge > >> 8) Upekkhasahagatam anavippayutam sasankharikam ekam´ti > 8) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with > indifference, and no-connected with knowledge >> >> Imani attha´pi Kamavacarakusalacittani nama" 34214 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg]seeing or thinking change? Hi Herman, op 27-06-2004 01:17 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...: > I know you don't like debating, this is just an expansion :-) N: Very good, you understand me. H: You told Lodewijk he sees only colour (a sea of orange this time). But > if that was the end of it, there would be no thought of motion. > > What is observed between seeing colour and thinking motion is seeing > *change*. Now, it would interest me to read whether change is seen or > thought. N: Thought. See my post to Icaro. H: Hup Hup Holland N: How thoughtful, that is your Dutch heart. Nina. 34215 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wheel sutta Dear Agrios, Just now I have an exchange with a Bhante about the sutta, as I wrote to Sarah. I am no good at learning by heart, but sometimes I try. op 27-06-2004 06:55 schreef agriosinski op agriosinski@y...: > > That would be just perfect. > Where is this Pali list? [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com Nina. 34216 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Dear Icaro, op 26-06-2004 23:05 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > (Rocky): What´s the lesson today ? Bullwinkle is a dope ? > (Bullwinkle): Not that lesson!!! This lesson !!! ( Bullwinkle hits > the blackboard, that begins to spin out, compounding an illusory > image of a cartoon inside a cartoon!!! As you said, close your eyes, > there´s nothing at all, open them and you get motion at eyesense) N: Ah, no. No motion at eyesense. Only colour or visible object. You seem to see people moving, but that is thinking of the whole story, caused by many different moments of seeing and all the while sañña, the cetasika remembrance, marking such moments so that there can be remembrance of people or things moving. Oscillation, motion or pressure appear through bodysense, while touching. The whole day, it is good to get to know those characteristics when they appear. I am reminded of something you said: so embarrassing to speak about your own experiences. I can feel with you, but it depends on the context. These can be seen as just dhammas, and can be used as illustrations and reminders of dhamma. We spoke about transfer of merit. Now this is also to living people, not just to those who passed away. Say, if you tell us about some kusala you did today (collecting texts for me), you do not hide your kusala but give others the opportunity to rejoice with kusala citta in your kusala. That is the meaning of transfer of merit. Not literally transferring. For Westerners this is difficult, they think it is showing off telling others about your kusala, or conceit. But no, it depends on the citta, when told with kusala citta it is dana. But we are a mixture of kusala and akusala and soon akusala citta can arise. So, can you tell me about some kusala you did today? Nina. 34217 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 5 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 5 The second Application of Mindfulness is the Contemplation on Feeling. One moment we have great anxiety and sadness and this is accompanied by unhappy feeling, and the next moment there can very quickly be a change to pleasant feeling when we laugh about something, even about our worries. Feelings change before we can do anything about them, they are beyond control. It is very difficult to be aware precisely of feeling. The Abhidhamma is very precise, but we usually think of a mixture of many phenomena, bodily and mental. Through the Abhidhamma we can have a basic knowledge of the different processes of cittas that experience different objects and that each have appropriate conditions for their arising. It is important to know that seeing arises in one process of cittas and thinking in another process and that they experience different objects, and also, that on account of these experiences different feelings arise. The understanding of conditions will make it clearer that feelings are non-self. We should pay attention to the third Application of Mindfulness that includes all kinds of cittas arising now: kusala citta, akusala citta, indeterminate citta. The first citta that is mentioned is citta with attachment. We should not neglect akusala citta as object of mindfulness. We take akusala citta as well as kusala citta for self, but they arise because of their own conditions. It is natural that kusala cittas and akusala cittas are alternating in our relationship with others. Through the Abhidhamma we learn that detachment accompanies each kusala citta. When we are generous, when we try to help someone else, we should have no preferences for specific people and we should not expect any kindness, any recognition in return. This means that we need equanimity and renunciation or detachment all the time. Through satipatthåna we come to know the different cittas that arise. Mindfulness of citta is a condition for beginning to distinguish kusala citta and akusala citta. However, we should not forget that the stages of insight develop in a specific order. The first stage of insight is knowing nåma as nåma and rúpa as rúpa, and before this stage arises kusala and akusala cannot be clearly realized as nåma and thus their different characteristics cannot yet be precisely known. ***** Nina 34218 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 0:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: rebirths. Hi Rob M, op 27-06-2004 00:58 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > At the beginning of this Sutta, Bhadraka the headman > approaches the Buddha and asks the Buddha to explain the origination > and ending of stress. The Buddha's reply is interesting...: > > The Buddha seems to be saying that we can understand the origination > and ending of stress by only considering the present. N: This sutta points to satipatthana: know the presently arisen dhamma. How otherwise can we understand the dukkha nature of the nama or rupa that appears. R: Nina, you recently posted a message to me on petas saying that your > approach is to focus on the paramattha dhammas of the present and > therefore the issue of petas (and planes of existence) is not a big > issue for you. > > This reminds me of a story. Two monks were arguing: ... > Monk 1 & Monk 2 (together): We can't both be correct! > Abbot: You are correct! N: It shows the futility of arguing and debating. I like it less and less. Would rather study texts. R: From this, I interpret that there are many aspects of the Buddha's > teaching. Some will appeal to some students (because of their > accumulations) and some will appeal to other students (because of > their accumulations). As long as it is in the Suttas, we should judge > it as valid teaching having value to some group of students. The > Buddha made it clear that he did not include unnecessary stuff in his > teaching. N: I agree. Perhaps the reality is worse than described as birth in hell planes. R: This is why I don't want to get drawn into the formal meditation > argument. N: It is so delicate! Depends on time, place, occasion. I just like to point out that there are two kinds of jhana: meditation on the subjects of samatha, and contemplation of the three characteristics in vipassana. For both: a lot of pañña is needed. Nina. 34219 From: Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:35pm Subject: Vism.XIV 84 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 84. (1) When a man is happy on encountering an excellent gift to be given, or recipient, etc., or some such cause for joy, and by placing right view foremost that occurs in the way beginning 'There is [merit in] giving' (M.i,288), he unhesitatingly and unurged by others performs such merit as giving, etc., then his consciousness is 'accompanied by joy', 'associated with knowledge', and 'unprompted'. (2) But when a man is happy and content in the way aforesaid, and, while placing right view foremost, yet he does it hesitantly through lack of free generosity, etc., or urged on by others, then his consciousness is of the same kind as the last but 'prompted'; for in this sense 'prompting' is a term for a prior effort exerted by himself or others. 34220 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 4:46pm Subject: RE: [dsg] oral tradition Hi Jon, You wrote: On the other hand, where by following the advice of a teaching one has come to understand something of value confidence then it is surely only appropriate for that to be acknowledged. I have noticed that some people seem to take the view that what they have learnt from contact with the teachings is pretty much self-evident and would have been realised in due course anyway, or even that what they have learnt has in fact been self-discovered and that the teachings are little more than a handy point of reference serving to confirm the extent of their ongoing development. They are inclined to play down the role of the teachings in what they have come to understand. ======================================================= What you say is very reasonable. Acknowledgement is very appropriate, very middle way. As opposed to ritualized indebtedness on one hand, or fantasies of self-made sainthood on the other. Thank you Herman 34221 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 5:21pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Hi Nina! > Dear Icaro, > thank you, that is your kusala citta. > Only the Pali symbols: anasampayuttam should be: ñaa.nasampayutta.m > We should get the correct signs of Velthuis for Email. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I´ve downloaded velthuis´ and Norman´s today again... it´s only a matter of install them at my palm Top!!! But that´s it. it´s ñaa.nasampayutta: combined (better than connected or no-disjoined) with knowledge. It Lacks me some expertise sometimes and I not feel myself so Kusala..heheheheh!!! But nevermind!I´m at your service, madam!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > Nina. > op 27-06-2004 02:22 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > > > > > >> Ath´ekanavuti´pi va - attha Kamavacara Kusala Cittani: > > > > Eight Types of Moral Consciousness of the sensuous sphere > >> > >> 1) somanassa-sahagatam anasampayuttam, asankharikam ekam > > 1) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with pleasure, > > and connected with knowledge > > > >> 2)Somanassa-sahagatam anasampayuttam, sasankharikam ekam > > 2) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with pleasure, > > and connected with knowledge > > > >> 3) somanassa -sahagatam anavippayuttam asankharikam ekam > > 3) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with pleasure, > > and no-connected with knowledge > > > >> 4) somanassa-sahagatam anavippayutam sasankharikam ekam > > 4) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with pleasure, > > and no-connected with knowledge > > > >> 5) Upekkhasahagatam anasampayuttam asankharikam ekam > > 5) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with > > indifference, and connected with knowledge > > > >> 6) Upekkhasahagatam anasampayuttam sasankharikam ekam > > 6) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with > > indifference, and connected with knowledge > > > >> 7) Upekkhasahagatam anavippayutam asankharikam ekam > > 7) one consciousness, unprompted, accompained with > > indifference, and no-connected with knowledge > > > >> 8) Upekkhasahagatam anavippayutam sasankharikam ekam´ti > > 8) one consciousness, prompted, accompained with > > indifference, and no-connected with knowledge > >> > >> Imani attha´pi Kamavacarakusalacittani nama" 34222 From: icarofranca Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 5:43pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Hi Nina: > N: Ah, no. No motion at eyesense. Only colour or visible object. You seem to > see people moving, but that is thinking of the whole story, caused by many > different moments of seeing and all the while sañña, the cetasika > remembrance, marking such moments so that there can be remembrance of people > or things moving. Oscillation, motion or pressure appear through bodysense, > while touching. The whole day, it is good to get to know those > characteristics when they appear. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Thanks for the clarification. Buddhaghosa sometimes is a bit obscure in these passages, almost coming inside the Aristotelic vice of theorizing without a definite idea or scientific concept. Curiously such reasoning raises up the dynamics and motivation of a cartoon or anime: the whole scene is the cetasika rememberance of unique moments that pass by so fast that it creates the illusory perception of movement... so it´s not movement at the eyedoors, but only colors or visible object! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > So, can you tell me about some kusala you did today? Ah...I was seated at the bus today, when at the Sheraton Hotel bus stop climbed up an old lady that ressembled so much you, Nina, with some company. I only saw photos of you...but the old lady were very similar to the pictures anyway. What if were you, travelling incognito to Rio de Janeiro ??? No doubt! even if she could be Nina van Gorkon, it couldn´t be polite to address a lady in distress, because this dress or that dress weren´t my business anyway, HAHAHAHAHAH!!!!! mettaya, Ícaro (if she could be you, were you in distraught also ???) 34223 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:01pm Subject: Re: Relationships Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > H> When you write that gross object is broken into paramattha dhammas, > and the function, manifestation and proximate cause are known, are you > referring to the function etc of the gross object, or of the paramattha > dhamma. ===== The commentaries define all paramattha dhammas in terms of characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause. Under the microscope of sati, the gross object is only a concept. ===== > H> Are you here asking me to note a certain definition of the three > general characteristics, or are you asking me to observe something > observable and common to all observable dhammas in general? ===== All paramattha dhammas have the three characteristics in common. Recognizing this is insight. ===== > Also, would > you be so kind as to explain how the perception of change is different > to the perception of anicca? ===== Perception of change (watching an airplane fly across the sky) is mundane and can lead to worldly knowledge. Perception of anicca (a characteristic of paramattha dhammas) is profound and can lead to insight. ===== > > ===================================================== > > I hope you learned something in class today :-) I learned a lot in class. I am the teacher :-) Each Sunday morning, I teach a beginner's Abhidhamma class at the local temple. This week, we talked about ditthi, next week is mana. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: Sorry for the delay in responding and the short answers. I lost two versions of answers to this post before typing this one. Each version got shorter and added to the delay in responding. 34224 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment (was([dsg] Re: Relationships Hi All, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > If you are asking about what are the conditions for the > perception of > > anicca, by quick answer (I am running out to teach my class) is the > > seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga): > > - Mindfulness > > - Investigation > > - Energy > > - Rapture > > - Tranquillity > > - Concentration > > - Equanimity > > > Ph: It occured to me to ask/wonder how wisdom (panna) wouldn't be a > factor of enlightenmnt. Would panna arise with the arising of > factors alone or in certain combinations? Wisdom *is* one of the five > faculties. (strengths?) I know for example that confidence/faith had > best arise together with wisdom. But what is the relationship between > wisdom and the factors of enlightenment? > You caught me :-) I was in a rush so I wrote down the first thing that entered my head as an answer. I haven't really studied the factors of enlightenment so they may not be the correct answer to the question of "conditions to percieve anicca". I don't know the answer to your question and I hope that somebody else can help us both out here. Metta, Rob M :-) 34225 From: Philip Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:12pm Subject: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment (was([dsg] Re: Relationships Hello all Thinking about this later, thought that perhaps panna (wisdom) is inherent in all enlightenment factors, and in the path factors as well? I think of Dhammapada I - 5: "Hatred is never appeased by hatred in this world. By non-hatred alone is hatred appeased." (Charaya Buddharakkhita trans.) But surely wisdom arises to see through hatred (the root of which is ignorance) before non-hatred (adosa? metta?) can arise. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hello Rob, and all > > The following is from Rob, in the "relationships" thread: > > > If you are asking about what are the conditions for the > perception of > > anicca, by quick answer (I am running out to teach my class) is the > > seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga): > > - Mindfulness > > - Investigation > > - Energy > > - Rapture > > - Tranquillity > > - Concentration > > - Equanimity > > > Ph: It occured to me to ask/wonder how wisdom (panna) wouldn't be a > factor of enlightenmnt. Would panna arise with the arising of > factors alone or in certain combinations? Wisdom *is* one of the five > faculties. (strengths?) I know for example that confidence/faith had > best arise together with wisdom. But what is the relationship between > wisdom and the factors of enlightenment? > > > Thank you, as always. Very grateful for all the guidance I'm > receiving from DSG. > > Metta, > Phil 34226 From: Philip Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:16pm Subject: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment (was([dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Rob Oops. I just cross posted with you. I'm happy to know that it might have been a useful question. Thanks as always for all your help. Metta, Phil Rob: > You caught me :-) I was in a rush so I wrote down the first thing > that entered my head as an answer. I haven't really studied the > factors of enlightenment so they may not be the correct answer to the > question of "conditions to percieve anicca". > > I don't know the answer to your question and I hope that somebody > else can help us both out here. 34227 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment Hello Philip, just butting in. A quick answer others may also give: Investigation is pañña, it is called here by the name: dhamma vicaya, investigation of the dhamma. In the tiika of Visuddhimagga 84, next week, condiitons are mentioned for this factor of enlightenment. You will see. Nina. op 27-06-2004 16:50 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > The following is from Rob, in the "relationships" thread: > >> If you are asking about what are the conditions for the > perception of >> anicca, by quick answer (I am running out to teach my class) is the >> seven factors of enlightenment (bojjhanga): >> - Mindfulness >> - Investigation >> - Energy >> - Rapture >> - Tranquillity >> - Concentration >> - Equanimity 34228 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 11:34pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Herman, Appreciating your conversation with Rob M. I would like to briefly interrupt where you say: --------------------- > The pile of chariot bits cannot be known as a means of transport, neither can hydrogen or oxygen singly be known for their liquidity. > ---------------------- I note that you are giving a chariot simile to show that the whole can be more than (or have different functions from) the sum of its parts. I'd just like to comment that the well-known chariot simile given by the Buddha had a different purpose. As I understand, it described a `conventional designation.' When we say, "There goes a chariot" we are using a conventional designation, which saves us from having to say, "There go two wheels, an axel, a tray and two shafts pulled by some horses." In a similar way, the Buddha said `man' `woman' `deva' and so on by way of conventional designation for the namas and rupas that actually exist. Corrections welcome. Kind regards, Ken H 34229 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 0:12am Subject: Re: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment (was([dsg] Re: Relationships Hello Everyone, Some comments: Nina:> A quick answer others may also give: Investigation is > pañña, it is called here by the name: dhamma vicaya, investigation of the > dhamma. B: While investigation is related to pañña, one is certainly not reducable to the other. Phra Ajaan Suwat Suvaco teaches us that dhamma vicaya in coordination with mindfulness, leads to pañña. I would add the remaining six factors of enlightenment to that list. Pañña arises when the seven factors are complete, not in a cause-effect relationship, but more of an emergent property of their combination. Similar to how an engine cannot be said to cause automobile, but an automobile cannot really be called such without an engine. Or in Buddha's way of putting it, a car is really no car, that is why we call it car. Besides, if the combination of two or three bojjhangas lead to pañña, then they would be called the two or three factors of enlightenment, not seven. Let us take basic anapanasati meditation to illustrate. When we follow the in-out breath, we are investigating, or looking into, the phenomena we call breath. The physical sensations, contact and movement underlying our perception of everyday "breath" become increasingly subtle under our vision. Energy is required to maintain this level of attention and to carry it ever deeper into the subtler flux of sensation. Eventually mindfulness, or remembering to keep the object (the breath) in mind, establishes itself firmly with less and less catering to distraction from competing sensations. The distractions are kept at bay by the slow arising of rapture, which I can only describe as a pleasant contentment with what is happening. Rapture is what keeps us from becoming bored with the breath and wanting to cater to some other momentary sense distraction. The combination of these factors establishes one in concentration. Thus one enters the samattha jnanas and into one-pointed tranquility. But this is nothing special. We have only yet established six of the seven factors. True pañña only arises when equanimity as a factor is established. Only then can all seven factors be truly called pañña. ===== Rob:>> If you are asking about what are the conditions for the >> perception of anicca, B: What are the conditions for the perception of anicca? What does it take to realize that all conditioned phenomena are inconstant? That there is no ground to stand on? That there is nothing whatsoever to grasp onto? What does it take? Some say only through practicing vipassana does one come to such realizations. Others say only by studying scripture and commentary. And still others say only through a combination of both study and practice. But friends, all it takes are a pair of eyes, two ears, a nose, a mouth, a body and a mind. May you all penetrate the truth of anicca, dukkha, and anatta. May you all be present and at peace. Bhinnatta --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/19/2004 34230 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 0:42am Subject: Rupa Questions Hi All, I note that the kalapas produced by kamma do not include the rupas of buoyancy (lahuta), plasticity (muduta) or wieldiness (kammannata). I am okay with that. I note that the kalapas produced by citta include: - Pure octads - Body intimation nonad (pure octad + body intimation rupa) - Vocal intimation decad (pure octad + vocal intimation rupa + sound) - Pure octad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness - Body intimation nonad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness - Vocal intimation decad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness Can I assume that the first three are only produced by those cittas without the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness and that the last three are only produced by those cittas including the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness? I note that the kalapas produced by temperature include: - Pure octad - Pure octad + sound - Pure octad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness - Pure octad + sound + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness Can I assume that the first two are only produced asynchronous of mental states (in inanimate objects) and during those cittas without the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness and that the last two are only produced during those cittas including the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness (i.e. kusala cittas)? I know that the first two will continue to be produced after death (these are what a corpse is made of). At what point do the last two stop to be produced? At the dissolution moment of the cuti citta? I note that the kalapas produced by nutrition include: - Pure octad - Pure octad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness Can I assume that the first is only produced during those cittas without the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness and that the last is only produced during those cittas including the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness (i.e. kusala cittas)? Metta, Rob M :-) 34231 From: Date: Sun Jun 27, 2004 2:30pm Subject: Nibbida Revulsion or Disinterest Nibbida Revulsion or Disinterest I believe the translation of the Pali term ‘Nibbida’ as ‘Revulsion’ is a classic example of Theravadan dogma affecting the translation of the Pali canon. The term ‘Nibbida’ was used by the historic Buddha to describe a necessary stage in which a contemplative arrives at a place of dispassion toward the aggregates (khandas/skhandas) so that equanimity, one of the 7 factors of enlightenment, can emerge. The problem with translating ‘Nibbida’ as ‘Revulsion’ is since when did the Buddha ever propose an aversive mental state, such as revulsion, could ever give rise to the cessation of displeasure and suffering (dukkha)? In fact we need only look to the 4 Noble Truths to know that both grasping and aversion are the causes of displeasure and suffering (dukkha). So, how could the scholars, such as Bhikkhu Bodhi, forget the foundations of Buddhist philosophy when they worked on their translations? I hope it seems as obvious to all of you, as it does to this writer, that ‘Nibbida’ should be translated as ‘displeasure, or even better ‘disinterest.’ I believe it should seem reasonable to a contemplative in a Buddhist context to give rise to disinterest toward the aggregates, than revulsion or disgust or aversion. Here is how Bhikkhu Bodhi translates ‘Nibbida’ in book III of the Samyutta Nikaya in the Book of Aggregates (Khandhavagga) Khandhasamyutta, pages 902-903. “Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards form, revulsion towards feeling…â€? Should it be translated other wise? “Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences disinterest towards form, disinterest towards feeling…â€? Kindest regards, Jeff Brooks The Great Western Vehicle Discourses_of_the_Buddha A dialog group dedicated to the Discourses of the Buddha Website: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Discourses_of_the_Buddha/ 34232 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 1:41am Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (15) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi When Do the Jhaanas Become Necessary? (2) Such are the reports that have come down in the Sutta Pi.taka about two lay followers who possess both the four jhaanas and the status of non-returner. Whether these two achievements are inseparably connected or not is difficult to determine on the basis of the Nikaayas, but there are several texts that lend support to this conclusion. One sutta (AN 3:85/I 231-32) ranks the four classes of noble disciples in relation to the threefold higher training consisting of the higher virtue, the higher mind, and the higher wisdom. Just below, the Buddha explains the training in the higher virtue (adhisiila-sikkhaa) as the restraint of the Paatimokkha, the code of monastic rules; the training in the higher mind (adhicitta-sikkhaa), as the four jhaanas (defined by the usual formula); and the training in the higher wisdom (adhipaññaa-sikkhaa), as either the knowledge of the four noble truths or liberation from the taints (AN 3:88-89/I 235-36). Although the Buddha's treatment of this topic is governed by a monastic context, the principles of classification can easily be extended to lay disciples. Returning to AN 3:85, we learn that the stream-enterer and the once-returner have fulfilled the training in the higher virtue (which for a lay disciple would mean possession of "the virtues dear to the noble ones") but have accomplished the other two trainings only partly; the non-returner has fulfilled the trainings in the higher virtue and the higher mind but accomplished the training in the higher wisdom only partly; and the arahant has fulfilled all three trainings. Now since the non-returner has fulfilled the training in the higher mind, and this is defined as the four jhaanas, he is probably an attainer of the jhaanas. It might still be questioned, however, whether he must possess all four jhaanas. While a literal reading of the above sutta would support this conclusion, if we bear in mind my earlier comments about interpreting stock formulas, we might conjecture that the training in the higher mind is fulfilled by the secure attainment of even one jhaana. This seems to be confirmed by the Mahaamaalu,nkya Sutta (MN No. 64/I 434-37), which shows how the attainment of jhaana figures in the preliminary phase of the path to the stage of non-returner. At a certain point in his discourse, the Buddha announces that he will teach "the path and way for the abandoning of the five lower fetters" (yo maggo yaa pa.tipadaa pa-canna.m orambhaagiyaana.m sa.myojanaana.m pahaanaaya). He underscores the importance of what he is about to explain with a simile. Just as it is impossible to cut out the heartwood of a great tree without first cutting through the bark and softwood, so it is impossible to cut off the five lower fetters without relying on the path and practice he is about to make known. This lays down categorically that the procedure to be described must be exactly followed to win the promised goal, the eradication of the five lower fetters (the defining achievement of the non-returner). The Buddha then explains the method. The meditator enters into one of the four jhaanas or the lower three formless attainments (the text takes up each in turn) and dissects it into its constituents: form, feeling, perception, volitional formations, and consciousness in the case of the four jhaanas; the same, but omitting form, for the three formless attainments.[34] He next contemplates these phenomena in eleven ways: as impermanent, suffering, a disease, a boil, a dart, misery, affliction, alien, disintegrating, empty, and non-self. Then, when his contemplation reaches maturity, he turns his mind away from these things and directs it to the deathless element (amata-dhaatu), i.e., Nibbaana. "If he is firm in this he reaches arahantship right on the spot, but if he holds back slightly due to attachment and delight in the Dhamma, then he eliminates the five lower fetters and becomes a spontaneous ariser, who attains final Nibbaana there (in a celestial realm) without ever returning from that world."[35] ****** Notes 34. According to the commentary, the fourth formless state, the base of neither-perception-nor-non-perception, is not mentioned because its constituents are too subtle to be comprehended by insight. But a parallel text, AN 9:36/IV 422-26, teaches a method by which the fourth formless attainment, as well as the cessation of feeling and perception, can be used to generate insight and thereby reach arahantship or non-returning. 35. MN I 435-36: So tattha.t.thito aasavaana.m khaya.m paapu.naati; no ce aasavaana.m khaya.m paapu.naati ten'eva dhammaraagena taaya dhammanandiyaa pa-canna.m orambhaagiyaana.m sa.myojanaana.m parikkhayaa opapaatiko hoti tatthaparinibbaayii anaavattidhammo tasmaa lokaa. 34233 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:02am Subject: Re: Relationships Dear RobMoult > > The commentaries define all paramattha dhammas in terms of > characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause. Under > the microscope of sati, the gross object is only a concept. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Right on! One can conceive the idea that the Paramattha Dhammas are inside the set of rethorics and the commentaries under the set of poetry without this acute and clear sight of Sati. Falling under the sanctificted sight of Sati everything and everyone, gross or subtile, become only aggregates of concepts! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I learned a lot in class. I am the teacher :-) --------------------------------------------------------------------- Ah!!!! So you are a Pink Floyd fan ??? "Hey teacher leave us kids alone All in all it's just, another brick in the wall All in all you're just, another brick in the wall" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Each Sunday morning, I teach a beginner's Abhidhamma class at the > local temple. This week, we talked about ditthi, next week is mana. --------------------------------------------------------------------- I hope you aren´t so harsh as the typical Pink Floyd´s teacher! "Absolutelly rubbish, laddie!!!(Whack!!!) Now repeat after me: all existence are Dukkha, Anicca and Anatta..." (just kidding...heheheheh!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro 34234 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:11am Subject: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment (was([dsg] Re: Relationships Hi RobMoult: But what is the relationship > between > > wisdom and the factors of enlightenment? > > > > I don't know the answer to your question and I hope that somebody > else can help us both out here. -------------------------------------------------------------------- I could risk a definition here... it´s similar with the relationship between a slippery floor and a stumbling down. Wisdom is necessary, in combination with knowledge,to rise up the Kusala Cittas, but is not mandatory. Since you can stumbling down and fall without a slippery floor, you can reach enlightmente without ñaana...but the other case is more probable to happen!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34235 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:38am Subject: Re: Relationships Hi Icaro, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > > > I learned a lot in class. I am the teacher :-) > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > Ah!!!! So you are a Pink Floyd fan ??? > > "Hey teacher leave us kids alone > All in all it's just, another brick in the wall > All in all you're just, another brick in the wall" > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > > > Each Sunday morning, I teach a beginner's Abhidhamma class at the > > local temple. This week, we talked about ditthi, next week is mana. > > -------------------------------------------------------------------- - > > I hope you aren´t so harsh as the typical Pink Floyd´s teacher! > > > "Absolutelly rubbish, laddie!!!(Whack!!!) > Now repeat after me: all existence are Dukkha, Anicca and > Anatta..." > I remember the album well! There aren't any "kids" in my class. I would put the average age at about 45. On Saturday, I start teaching another class (for four weeks) which, I suspect, will be mainly made up of university students. It will be interesting to contrast the reactions with my Sunday class. Last night, my wife and I went to the temple to sit in on a visiting Burmese monk's Abhidhamma class. The Burmese approach to teaching Abhidhamma is very different. They memorize strings of Pali names for cittas by reciting mnemonics: Som sa di sam asan Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam asankharikham ekam Som sa di sam sasan Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam sasankharikham ekam Some day, when I have more time, I will join the Pali class at the temple. I am so lucky to live in Malaysia (oops, there is mana again :-) ). Metta, Rob M :-) 34236 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:35am Subject: Re: Relationships Hi RobMoult! > > I remember the album well! > > There aren't any "kids" in my class. I would put the average age at > about 45. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- So beware the whacks!!! HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Last night, my wife and I went to the temple to sit in on a visiting > Burmese monk's Abhidhamma class. The Burmese approach to teaching > Abhidhamma is very different. They memorize strings of Pali names for > cittas by reciting mnemonics: > Som sa di sam asan > Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam asankharikham ekam > Som sa di sam sasan > Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam sasankharikham ekam --------------------------------------------------------------------- Good mnemonics!! That´s the classical way to learn (without the whacks, of course)...I use somewhat of this kind to learn difficult points on latim and hebrew. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Some day, when I have more time, I will join the Pali class at the > temple. I am so lucky to live in Malaysia (oops, there is mana > again :-) ). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- At Rome, do as the romans...unless you are a teacher as Orbilius Pupilius, called by their reluctant students "Orbilius Plagosus" or "Orbilius The Whacker", because his habit to perform this type of correction on idle students! And now...back to Dudley Do-Right of the Mounties! Mettaya, Ícaro 34237 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:01am Subject: The 3 Liberations ! Friends: Three Ways Up to yet One & Same Top: There are these 3 liberations: The Signless Liberation.. The Wishless Liberation.. The Void Liberation.. Penetration of the Universal Impermanence of all phenomena, makes one comprehend that all constructions always are becoming otherwise & therefore cannot contain any constant unchanging 'substance or core". Phenomena are then seen as transient 'signs' or 'symbols' only appearing to be constant & solid. As all phenomena through change thus are inevitably lost, unkeepable & unownable, the dispassion of disillusion is induced. This detachment turn attention towards the only lasting & safe state: The signless Nibbana. This relinquishment of all constructions based on comprehension of their inherent ephemeral transience, is called the Signless Liberation... Penetration of the Universal Painful aspect of all phenomena as they change, decay & disappear, out of one's control, makes one realize the inevitable Dissatisfaction, Disappointment and Suffering bound up with all these passing constructions... This naturall cools down the desire for them, since who actually want what is painful...This relinquishment of all constructions based on comprehension of their inherent Pain is called the Wishless Liberation... Penetration of the Universal Impersonality of all passing phenomena makes one realize that they cannot be "I, Me, Mine, "What I Am" nor any "Self" as they constantly change & become otherwise... Phenomena arise & cease according to own causes and are thus not under 'My' control! Fully comprehending this alien remoteness, unrelated disconnectedness & ownerless egolessness of all phenomena - internal as external, mental as material, induces a quite strange yet open & joyous perception of the basic impersonality, voidness of any self or core & emptiness of identity... Relinquishing this idea of internal self & external substance is called the Void Liberation ... The attained state of Freedom, Peace & Bliss is One & Ever the Same... Impermanent are all Constructions Miserable are all Constructions Impersonal are all Phenomena All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 34238 From: agriosinski Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:57am Subject: [dsg] Re: Wheel sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" w= rote: > Dear Agriosinski: > > > That would be just perfect. > > Where is this Pali list? > > ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > You can gather up all Pali information in many sources on net. [...] > Differences ? The texts on www.tipitaka.org is more readable than > www.metta.lk´s... but you first must download the Pali fonts ; > Norman, velthius or others, to best reading! Thanks for the links. I am not sure if I am ready to use new fonts you see. I was thinking more along the line of latin letters and pali words, exactly the way Nina presents her translations. Trilinear as she calls it. > > This is my intention :) > > Are you having one of these supernatural powers? > > ;) > I´ve got many Dudley Do-right and Rocky & Bullwinkle cartoon > episodes recorded on VHS...but is not pali canonical at all!!!! > but any of them can read thoughts as Nina does? ;) > Mettaya, Ícaro metta, Agrios 34239 From: agriosinski Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:02am Subject: [dsg] Re: Wheel sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: [...] > [Send Message] pali@yahoogroups.com > Nina. Hi Nina, perfect. I am there. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Pali/ metta, Agrios 34240 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Complication (was Re: Dustrags) Hi Bhinnatta & Philip, I was very impressed by both your comments on this topic of papa~nca (complication/proliferation/impediment). I'd like to add a few more reflections on the meaning. (You may also like to look at some posts written quite some time back in U.P. under 'papa~nca') http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts There seem to be two 'schools' of translation here, summarised in this extract of the definition from the PTS dict on line: http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html ..... "Papanca (p. 412) [in its P. meaning uncertain whether identical with Sk. prapanca (pra+panc to spread out; meaning "expansion, diffuseness, manifoldedness"; cp. papanceti & papanca 3) more likely, as suggested by etym. & meaning of Lat. im--ped--iment--um, connected with pada, thus perhaps originally "pa--pad--ya," i. e. what is in front of (i. e. in the way of) the feet (as an obstacle)] 1. obstacle, impediment, a burden which causes delay, hindrance, delay DhA I.18; II.91 (katha°). °n karoti to delay, to tarry..." ***** S: I notice that Bhuddatta's dictionary follows the meaning of 'obstacle, delay, impediment or illusion, hindrance to spiritual practice' which I find very interesting, while Nyantiloka's dictionary follows the first meaning of 'expansion, differentiation, diffuseness etc following the Sk. http://www.palikanon.com/english/wtb/n_r/papanca.htm B.Bodhi uses 'proliferation' in translations such as MN11 and this seems to be most common: "Friends, that goal is for one who does not delight in and enjoy proliferation, not for one who delights in and enjoys proliferation." In the footnote, he writes: "Proliferation (papanca), according to MA [the comy], is here mental activity governed by craving and views." He then refers the reader to note 229 which discusses the term at length. He also discusses it in detail in his introduction to the Mulapariyaya Sutta and commentaries which indicate it is 'motivated' by craving (ta.nhaa), conceit (maana), and views (di.t.thi). He also mentions 'that the commentary glosses the word 'ma~n~nanaa'(conceiving) by the word 'papa~nca'. ..... To underscore the point Phil was making about the wrong use or reading of similes such as the 'dustrag', the comy to this sutta stresses that "it is not the mere employment of the expression that is intended here, but the wrong adherence which occurs through the conventional expression. ......By this, weak conceiving through craving, conceit, and views is shown." I particularly appreciated Bhinnatta's further reminders about the dustrag simile: .... "....I don't see the dustrag simile being discussed as an encouragement to think conceptually or to create some new idea in our heads of a dust rag. The teaching was about humility and forgiveness. Sariputta has attained stability in the midst of injustice, remaining equanimous and unmoved by it; similar to how a dust rag collects disgusting filth without complaint. The dustrag is the finger pointing, not the moon itself." .... Your other comments were helpful too and I look forward to more (and any more intro about yourself such as where you live, if inclined;-)). From the sub-comy to the Mulapariyaya sutta: .... "Papa~ncasa'nkhaa = portions of papa~nca (papa~ncako.t.thaasa). Because of these, beings are detained (papa~ncanti) in sa'msaara, i.e delayed, thus these are 'proliferating tendencies.' 'Conceiving (ma~n~nanaa): because of these people conceive, i.e misconstrue (parikappenti) things as 'This is mine', etc. Craving, conceit, and views are referred to here by two synonymous terms, 'conceivings' and 'proliferating tendencies'. "He apprehends it...contrary (to reality)': like the conceiving of views, the conceivings of craving and conceit also apprehend things contrary to reality - craving assuming the repulsive to be beautiful, conceit the inferior to be superior, etc...." ***** So here we have the connection with the vipallaasa (perversions) which Phil also referred to and I think the second set of dictionary definitions of pap~nca which I started with would fit well here: 'obstacle, delay, impediment or illusion, hindrance to spiritual practice', referring specifically to craving, conceit and wrong views. I think 'complication' is quite an interesting way to look at them too. Finally, on a somewhat lighter note, I came across this very interesting and relevant (!!) quote in the Sammohavinodanii (transl as the 'Dispeller or Delusion by ~Naa.namoli who also uses 'proliferation',ch 17.2350): ..... "And one who is without understanding sits in the midst of his supporters and makes a show of his great understanding by speaking thus: 'As I was looking up in the Majjhima Nikaaya the three kinds of proliferation (Papa~ncattaya.m), I came to the path with the miraculous powers. Competency in the scriptures is not difficult for us. But one who gets involved in scriptural competency is not released from suffering, so we gave up scriptural competency,' and so on. There is no greater rogue (mahaacora) than this. For it is not a fact that an expert in the scriptures is not released from suffering." ***** Thank you again for encouraging me to consider further here -- it's been a welcome break from pap~nca relating to packing, the still broken washing machine, Jon's injured back, the sick friend and other worldly chores. It's not a matter of not having papa~nca, but a matter of developing the understanding which will see the craving, conceit, and views for what they are - obstacles, delays, impedimens or illusions - as I see it. Reflecting on dustrags, anatta or anything else can be kusala or akusala with or without papa~nca. Only pa~n~naa can know. Metta, Sarah p.s Phil your intended further reading of CMA, 'Cetasikas' and 'Conditions' sounds excellent. The last two books by Nina are on line, so feel free to post any passages with your commentary;-). =============== 34241 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:05am Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (16) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi When Do the Jhaanas Become Necessary? (3) The Mahaamaalu,nkya Sutta thus makes the attainment of jhaana a necessary part of the preparatory practice for attaining the stage of non-returner. Though the sutta discusses the practice undertaken by a monk, since the Buddha has declared this to be "the path and practice for abandoning the five lower fetters," we are entitled to infer that lay practitioners too must follow this course. This would imply that a once-returner who aspires to become a non-returner should develop at least the first jhaana in the preliminary phase of the path, using the jhaana as the launching pad for developing insight. While the Mahaamaalu,nkya Sutta and its parallel (AN 9:36/IV 422-26) imply that prior attainment of the first jhaana is a minimum requirement for reaching the fruit of non-returning, we may still query whether this is an invariable rule or merely a general stipulation that allows for exceptions. Several suttas suggest the latter may in fact be the case. In two consecutive texts the Buddha extols the "eight wonderful and marvellous qualities" of two lay followers named Ugga. In the first (AN 8:aa1/IV 211), he declares that Ugga of Vesaalii has abandoned all five fetters (as for Nandamaataa above); in the second (AN 8:22/IV 216), he says that Ugga of Hatthigaama has no fetters bound by which he might come back to this world (as for Citta). Yet, though he thus confirms their standing as non-returners, the Buddha does not mention jhaanic attainments among their eight wonderful qualities. This, of course, need not be taken to mean that they lacked attainment of jhaana. It may have been that their jhaanic skills were less remarkable than the other qualities they possessed, or they may have been adept in only one or two jhaanas rather than in all four. But it does leave open the possibility that they were non-returners without jhaana. Still another suggestive text is the Diighaavu Sutta (SN 55:3/V 344-46). Here, the Buddha visits a young lay follower named Diighaavu, who is gravely ill. He first enjoins the sick boy to acquire confirmed confidence in the Three Jewels and the virtues dear to the noble ones, that is, to become a stream-enterer. When Diighaavu declares that he already possesses these qualities, the Buddha tells him that since he is established in the four factors of stream-entry, he should "strive further to develop six qualities that partake of true knowledge" (cha vijjaabhaagiyaa dhammaa): "You should dwell contemplating the impermanence of all formations, perceiving suffering in what is impermanent, perceiving non-self in what is suffering, perceiving abandonment, perceiving dispassion, perceiving cessation."[36] Diighaavu assures the Blessed One that he is already practising these contemplations, and the Master leaves. A short time later Diighaavu dies. On hearing the news of his death, the monks approach the Buddha to ask about his future rebirth. The Buddha declares that Diighaavu the lay follower had eradicated the five lower fetters and was spontaneously reborn as a non-returner. Here the transition from stream-entry to non-returning occurs entirely through a series of contemplations that pertain to insight. There has been no exhortation to develop the jhaanas, yet through the practice of the "six things partaking of true knowledge" Diighaavu has severed the five fetters and gained the third fruit of the path. ****** Notes 36. SN V 345: Cha vijjaabhaagiye dhamme uttari.m bhaaveyyaasi. Idha tva.m Diighaavu sabbasa,nkhaaresu aniccaanupassii viharaahi, anicce dukkhasa--ii dukkhe anattasa--ii pahaanasa--ii viraagasa--ii nirodhasa--ii ti. 34242 From: Philip Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:28am Subject: [dsg] Complication (was Re: Dustrags) Hi Sarah Now to get to the rest of your thoughtful message that I didn't have time for the other night. (I always seem to be about 2 days behind here - no need to fret about that, of course.) S: > Yesterday, Jon and I were sitting on the beach (Dragon Boat festival > here), reading posts. When he read out the quotes I'd included about > dustrags I found it a condition then and there for helpful reflection > about the extent of commonly arising conceit and the value of being a > nobody?E Ph: I think it would be very helpful to be able to read posts out loud and discuss them with someone face to face. It was very interesting to experience that first dhamma talk with Rob K - being able to speak and hear the Dhamma is different somehow. There may come a day when Naomi and I will have such discussions. We will see how conditions play out. Ph:> >Maybe I am thinking too literally. In K Sujin's teaching, a > > dustrug is a symbol of being a nobody, which I can appreciate the > > wisdom of, not necessarily with the connotation of soking up other > > people's toxins. > .... > S: She'd say straight away that it's not her teaching but the Buddha's. Ph: Yes. That was bad wording on my part. I suppose it could be said that K Sujin's emphasis is different from other teachers, of course, but it is the Buddha's teaching. Ph: > > Personally, I prefer using symbols of water that wash away > > defilements. Water seems much less complicated. I'm think of AN 130, > > the Lekha Sutta. (clip) S: > "And how is an individual like an inscription in water? There is the case > where a certain individual -- when spoken to roughly, spoken to harshly, > spoken to in an unpleasing way -- is nevertheless congenial, > companionable, & courteous. Just as an inscription in water immediately > disappears and doesn't last a long time, in the same way a certain > individual -- when spoken to roughly, spoken to harshly, spoken to in an > unpleasing way -- is nevertheless congenial, companionable, & courteous. > This is called an individual like an inscription in water.?E> .... > S: Wonderful sutta. Similar message - perhaps the dust-rag just takes it a > little further. Ph: This image of an inscription in water really is hugely helfpul for a person like myself who is prone to resentments. Even before gaining a somewhat deeper understanding of realites through Nina's books this sutta was helpful. And now - well, come to think of it, I don't think about it like I used to. I guess there are other similes that I respond more to now. The burning house is one. But I wonder if the way respond to these similes becomes less intense and personal as our understanding deepens. And I assume they very rarely arise for Ariyans. > > Ph: But I would have thought we would > > choose a more direct method of rightly understanding oneself as a > > nobody. > .... > S: Yes, it depends on accumulations. LIke you, without some appreciation > of Abhidhamma first, I'm not sure the following reflections alone would > ever condition an appreciation of anatta. Now I find them priceless. > From the PTS translation (Hare) it is in Bk of 9s, Ch 11 `The Lion Roar?E > i,11 (as Jim said) and also in B.Bodhi's "Numerical Discourses of the > Buddha?E under `Sariputta's Lion's Roar?E p231. > > "Just as, Lord, people throw upon the earth things clean and unclean, > dung, urine, spittle, pus and blood, yet for all that the earth has no > revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with > a heart that is like the earth, vast, exalted and measureless, without > hostility and without ill will. However, one in whom mindfulness directed > on the body in regard to the body is not present may well hit a fellow > monk and leave without an apology. > > "Just as. Lord, people use water to wash things clean and unclean, things > soiled....... > > "Just as, Lord, fire burns things clean and unclean, things > soiled.... > > "Just as, Lord, the wind blows over things clean and unclean..... > > "Lord, just as a duster *[S: i.e dust-rag]* wipes over things clean and > unclean, things soiled > with dung, urine, pus and blood, yet for all that the duster has no > revulsion, loathing or disgust towards it; even so, Lord, do I dwell with > a heart that is like a duster.... > > "Lord, just as an outcast boy or girl, begging-vessel in hand and clad in > rags, enters a village with a humble heart; even so, Lord, do I dwell with > a heart like that of an outcast youth, a heart that is vast, exalted and > measureless, without hostility and without ill will...... > Ph: That is very beautiful and encouraging. As you said, an expansion, really, on the Lekha Sutta. I don't know quite why I have gone on like this about questioning the need for similes, when they are so helpful. Just feeling my way around, starting to understand what it means to investigate realities directly. I suppose as I beginner I have misunderstood that we need to renounce the pleasures of poetry. But surely that is not the case. Thanks again. Metta, Phil 34243 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:21am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 6 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 6 The objects of the fourth Application of Mindfulness are the hindrances, the five khandhas, the six internal and external sensebases (ayatanas), the seven factors of enlightenment and the four noble Truths. Thus, these are dhammas under different aspects and different cetasikas. We read in the ³Satipaììhånasutta²: "Here, O bhikkhus, a bhikkhu lives contemplating the mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances. How, O bhikkhus, does a bhikkhu live contemplating mental objects in the mental objects of the five hindrances? Here, O bhikkhus, when sensuality is present, a bhikkhu knows with understanding: 'I have sensuality,' or when sensuality is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no sensuality.'.... When anger is present, he knows with understanding: 'I have anger,' or when anger is not present, he knows with understanding: 'I have no anger.' ...² We can see how the Abhidhamma helps us to understand the suttas, and how the Abhidhamma is indispensable to start on the right Path. The hindrances are only akusala cetasikas, arising because of conditions, they have no owner. In this sense they are beyond control. But paññå, right understanding developed through satipatthåna, can eventually eradicate them. The body is with us all the time, when standing, sitting, going, lying down, but we are forgetful of dhammas. We have pleasant feeling, unpleasant feeling, indifferent feeling all the time, but we are forgetful. It is the same with all the other aspects in the other two Applications of Mindfulness. We are forgetfull, but all sections of the Applications of Mindfulness can bring us back to reality. Often we are dreaming but sometimes there can be non-forgetfulness of visible object, or sound, just one dhamma at a time. When we discern the difference between moments of forgetfulness and a moment, even a single moment, of sati, we can verify its characteristic. This is the right condition for its development. Insight, vipassanå, is developed by means of mindfulness of all nåmas and rúpas appearing in our daily life and these are classified as the four Applications of Mindfulness. There is no specific order according to which there should be awareness. At one moment rúpa may appear, at another moment nåma may appear. The goal is understanding that can eradicate defilements. **** Nina 34244 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment Hello Philip, I am just building up my Intro to Vis. 84, and here I lift out something for you. Later on you will get my whole intro if you like. We read in the ³Expositor² (p. 101) about the conditions for the enlightenment factor of Investigation of Dhamma: As to cleansing of things and substances, this is personal cleanliness of the body, of clothes and dwelling, as the Commentary to the Satipa.t.thaanasutta explains. Equalizing of the faculties pertains to the balancing of the faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. Thus we see that also physical factors are conditions for wisdom. Nina. 34245 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Icaro, kaamavacara kusala cittas Dear Icaro, op 28-06-2004 02:21 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > sometimes and I not feel myself so Kusala..heheheheh!!! N: Conditions, conditions! We are worldlings, what else do we expect? Still full lobha, dosa, moha. You are sincere, and sincerity, truthfulness is one of the perfections. It is so necessary for samatha and vipassana, otherwise we delude ourselves, taking for kusala what is attachment. And now you can see that kusala and akusala have conditions, no possessor, not you. I: But nevermind!I´m at your service, madam!!!! N: Veyyavaca, helping, serving others is one of the ten puññakiriyavatthu. If you see the benefit of kusala it can arise more often. it is all by conditions. Right friendship is one of the conditions. Icaro: Curiously such reasoning raises up the dynamics and motivation of a cartoon or anime: the whole scene is the cetasika rememberance of unique moments that pass by so fast that it creates the illusory perception of movement... so it´s not movement at the eyedoors, but only colors or visible object! N: You grasped that all right, Icaro. You listened and considered, studied the Dhamma. Also when watching cartoons. That is the way to do it, that is dhamma in daily life. That is also among the ten puññakiriyavatthu. No need to tear yourself away from your cartoons. Dhamma is everywhere. Within yourself and around yourself. May we all see more and more the benefit of kusala and especially of right understanding! Nina. 34246 From: Philip Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 3:49pm Subject: Re: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment Hello Nina Thank you very much. When I received my copy of Visudhimmaga as a kind gift from a good Dhamma friend and excitedly opened it, the first phrase I came across was this "making the basis clean", as my edition has it. I told Naomi about it, and she said "I told you so." She'd often said that if I meditate when the room is a mess it reflects my messy mind and makes the whole exercise pointless. I think she was right. :o) BTW, my edition (Nanamoli Bhikkhu trans) has "persons without understanding" rather than "unintelligent persons." Don't you think the former might be better? It seems that "persons without understanding" would be less of a hindering condition, because you would have some hope of gaining understanding together, but unintelligent persons would have no hope of gaining understanding in this lifetime? A minor point, I know. I like the way the conditions for each factor contain advice about cultivating (frequenting) certain kinds of people and avoiding others. I think that is very realistic and practical and it has inspired me *not* to accept my co-workers' constant invitations to join them for drinks at a notorious bar where they go to get drunk and "chat up" boozy women. I was starting to waver but I will stay home and "chat up" my DSG friends instead. (And Naomi, of course.) :) Metta, Phil P.S What does Vis 84 mean?In my edition this section is in Chapter IV, 54. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hello Philip, > I am just building up my Intro to Vis. 84, and here I lift out something for > you. Later on you will get my whole intro if you like. > > We read in the ³Expositor² (p. 101) about the conditions for the > enlightenment factor of Investigation of Dhamma: > and substances, equalizing of the faculties, avoiding of unintelligent > persons, frequenting of wise persons, reflection on teachings of deep > knowledge, inclination (of mind) towards this.> > As to cleansing of things and substances, this is personal cleanliness of > the body, of clothes and dwelling, as the Commentary to the > Satipa.t.thaanasutta explains. Equalizing of the faculties pertains to the > balancing of the faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration > and wisdom. Thus we see that also physical factors are conditions for > wisdom. > Nina. 34247 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 4:45pm Subject: The dangers of hanging around only with like-minded people Hi everyone, Kakacupama Sutta http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn021.html We are all human, and we all pursue the things we like, and avoid the things we dislike. And when we have been able to temporarily structure our environment according to our wishes we may believe a pleasure-not-of-this-world descends on us. Reading the story of the slave girl Kali and her supposed even-tempered mistress Lady Vedehika reminds me that there is only a fine line between believing one is fostering conditions for spiritual growth by pursuing certain activities (and avoiding others) , and pursuing activities ignorant of the craving and aversion that drive that. In short, each day is long enough to be aware 1000 times of craving/aversion and how different it is to equanimity. Catch ya'll later Herman 34248 From: Philip Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:02pm Subject: Re: Transference of merit? Hello all Getting back to K Sujin's "Metta" today I found this passage on "extension of merit." "When we have performed kusala kamma we can extend merit to others that are able to appreciate our good deeds, and this is a form of dana, of generosity. It is beneficial to do this, because at such a moment the citta is accompanied by metta. We think of the well being of someone else, we give him the opportunity to have kusala citta with appreciation of our kusala. When somebody has ?ganumodhana- dana,?h appreciation of another person?fs kusala, it is his kusala kamma. We all can rejoice in each other?fs kusala, by anumodhana- dana, and in this way benefit from the good deeds performed by someone else. However, we should not extend merit out of fear that there is someone who could avenge himself and cause misfortune. The development of metta towards those we meet in this life is more beneficial than the extension of merit to an avenger we have never seen and whom we do not know." I don't know if this kind of "extending merit" would be included in "transference of merit", technically speaking, but it certainly is sensible. Metta, Phil p.s my apologies if someone has already brought this up in the "transfer of merit" thread, which I fell out of touch with during a busy few days. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > Hello all > > Only time for a quick question today. > > In the list of 10 meritous deeds, I see "transference of merit." > I googled the term but came up with metaphysical-ish topics related > to Pure Land Buddhism. > What is this "transference of merit" and how might it arise in > our daily life? > > Thanks in advance. > > Metta, > Phil 34249 From: Philip Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:11pm Subject: Re: The dangers of hanging around only with like-minded people Hi Herman, and all A helpful reminder! I used to think about this simile a lot but it had fallen away. It's great the way we are reminded by dhamma friends of things that are helpful to remember. H: > We are all human, and we all pursue the things we like, and avoid the > things we dislike. And when we have been able to temporarily structure > our environment according to our wishes we may believe a > pleasure-not-of-this-world descends on us. Ph: I think it's pretty well impossible to structure our environment if we have to go to work every day, deal with customers/co-workers, commute in crowded trains etc. So there will always be plenty of opportunities to cultivate equanimity. But in one's leisure hours, I think it might be wise to cultivate a fair amount of solitude, and if there is company with others, insist that it is with kindred souls, so to speak. Not in hopes of escaping from dukkha, but there is something to be gained in those quiet hours away from people, or with people of understanding. So I would stick by my decision to avoid my lust-maddened co-workers outside the work place. I see enough of them there. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > Kakacupama Sutta > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn021.html > > We are all human, and we all pursue the things we like, and avoid the > things we dislike. And when we have been able to temporarily structure > our environment according to our wishes we may believe a > pleasure-not-of-this-world descends on us. > > Reading the story of the slave girl Kali and her supposed even- tempered > mistress Lady Vedehika reminds me that there is only a fine line between > believing one is fostering conditions for spiritual growth by pursuing > certain activities (and avoiding others) , and pursuing activities > ignorant of the craving and aversion that drive that. > > In short, each day is long enough to be aware 1000 times of > craving/aversion and how different it is to equanimity. > > Catch ya'll later > > Herman 34250 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 5:52pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The dangers of hanging around only with like-minded people Hi Phil, I've got another GREAT reminder for you :-) See below. =================================================== P> Hi Herman, and all A helpful reminder! I used to think about this simile a lot but it had fallen away. It's great the way we are reminded by dhamma friends of things that are helpful to remember. H: > We are all human, and we all pursue the things we like, and avoid the > things we dislike. And when we have been able to temporarily structure > our environment according to our wishes we may believe a > pleasure-not-of-this-world descends on us. Ph: I think it's pretty well impossible to structure our environment if we have to go to work every day, deal with customers/co-workers, commute in crowded trains etc. So there will always be plenty of opportunities to cultivate equanimity. =============================================== H> You don't HAVE TO go to work!!! How good is that!! I am sure that you can list a thousand reasons why you think you have to, but I suspect that most of them will come down to desires/aversions. For the rest, I am not here to tell others what to do or not to do. A reminder re awareness can't be bad, but, can it? :-) Catch U Later Herman 34251 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 6:56pm Subject: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re:dsg] Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (1) Dear Sarah Thanks a lot for sharing with me the passages concerning Sarvastivada in Katthavatthu and the way to get Nina¡¦s translations of Vism-mht. S: They arise together and are each the promate cause of the other as I understand, developing together. T: But from the perspective of Visuddhimagga, the scheme of three trainings (sila, Samadhi, panna), only when the purification of mind (cittavisuddhi) is fulfilled by means of access concentration (by vipassana or samatha meditation) or jhana (by samatha meditation), can one gain the real insight knowledges (vipassanaa ~naana) which will in turn lead to magga and phala. . S: In your view, what does it mean ?to practice samatha meditation to attain jhanas?? T: Yes, if jhana is, as some scholars have suggested, absolutely necessary for attaining magga-phala, we have to practice samatha meditation, if we want to get magga-phala. S: Can there be any control or order over what kind of kusala arises at this moment? If there is any idea of ?trying to practice vipassana meditation? as opposed to understanding currently arising namas and rupas, can it be right? What I am getting at is that these arguments about certain orders all suggest an idea of a self that can control or arrange practices when we know the teachings are about anatta T: I don¡¦t quite understand what you mean. If we chose to practice metta bhavana, we can cause cittas accompanied by metta to arise. Since the flow of consciousness is also a conditioned dhamma, we could change it to some degree, otherwise there is no use of moral precept (sila), charity (dana) and mental development (bhavana). Don¡¦t we need to control our verbal, bodily and mental behavior in order to follow the teaching of the Buddha? To strive for practicing meditation (samatha or vipassana) is to understand from experience the doctrine of anatta. Dosen¡¦t it? With metta Tzungkuen 34252 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:02pm Subject: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Dear Dhamma friends Since many members in this group study Abhidhamma, I have a question to ask. Can every paramattha dhamma listed in Abhidhamma texts can be observed by everyone? Ven. Pa-Auk Sayadaw of Burma is a well-known meditation teacher and very learned in both Pali commentaries and Abhidhamma. Actually, his meditation teaching is completely combined with Abhidhamma. According to him, every paramattha dhammas, every citta and cetasika including the bhavanga-citta, patisandhi-citta should be ¡¥really¡¦ observed in meditation. (We only know the terms of Abhidhamma intellectually.) He also teaches yogis to observe the namas and rupas in the past and future existences in order to really understand the law of Paticcasamupada. I would like to know if anyone of you has any thoughts about this question. With meta Tzungkuen May you be free from mental and physical suffering May you be peaceful and happy. 34253 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 7:33pm Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Tzung Kuen, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > Since many members in this group study Abhidhamma, I have a question to ask. Can every paramattha dhamma listed in Abhidhamma texts can be observed by everyone? > Ven. Pa-Auk Sayadaw of Burma is a well-known meditation teacher and very learned in both Pali commentaries and Abhidhamma. Actually, his meditation teaching is completely combined with Abhidhamma. > According to him, every paramattha dhammas, every citta and cetasika including the bhavanga-citta, patisandhi-citta should be ¡¥really¡¦ observed in meditation. (We only know the terms of Abhidhamma intellectually.) He also teaches yogis to observe the namas and rupas in the past and future existences in order to really understand the law of Paticcasamupada. > I would like to know if anyone of you has any thoughts about this question. > ===== Some random thoughts... The bhavanga citta is not a paramattha dhamma. It is a mixture of the paramattha dhamma citta (consciousness) and a set of cetasikas. A characteristic of continuity of mental states can be observed and from this, one can "observe" the bhavanga citta. How could one observe a patisandhi citta during meditation (other than to say that the bhavanga citta arising now is the same as our patisandhi citta)? How can one observe the water element (one of the four great essentials)? It's characteristic is to provide cohesion of the other rupas. By itself, it does not present itself to the 5 sense doors, only to the mind door. By knowing the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause of each of the paramattha dhammas, we can put our observations into context and thereby "observe" the paramattha dhammas. Saying that one can observe the paramattha dhammas implies that they can be isolated from each other. Can we isolate the sweet from the sour in a soup? Metta, Rob M :-) 34254 From: Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 8:42pm Subject: ¦^ÂСG[dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Dear Rob M. Thanks for your reply. > The bhavanga citta is not a paramattha dhamma. It is a mixture of > the paramattha dhamma citta (consciousness) and a set of cetasikas. Yes, you're right. I should ask, 'could the citta and cetasikas included in a bhavangacitta could be clearly and separately observed from experience?' > A characteristic of continuity of mental states can be observed and > from this, one can "observe" the bhavanga citta. But can one observe a single bhavangacitta? A continuity of mental satates could be called as paramattha dhamma? > How could one observe a patisandhi citta during meditation (other > than to say that the bhavanga citta arising now is the same as our > patisandhi citta)? According to Pa-Auk Sayadaw, a meditator should observe clearly the patisandhicittas and maranasanna-javana-cittas in this life and in previous lives, so that he can really know the links of dependent origination. (See Talk 6 'How you see the links of Dependent-origination' in Knowing and Seeing by Pa-Auk Sayadaw available on http://www.buddhanet.net.) > How can one observe the water element (one of the four great > essentials)? It's characteristic is to provide cohesion of the > other rupas. By itself, it does not present itself to the 5 sense doors, > only to the mind door. Yes, some rupas listed in Abhidhammasanghasa can't be observed from experience. > By knowing the characteristic, function, manifestation and > proximate cause of each of the paramattha dhammas, we can put our > observations into context and thereby "observe" the paramattha dhammas. But, can one recognize clearly those different cittas in a cittavithi and know the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate cause of those paramattha dhammas involved in each cittas ? For example, can one recognize from experience this citaa as a receiving citta, investigating citta etc. and all their cetasikas from experience? > Saying that one can observe the paramattha dhammas implies that > they can be isolated from each other. Can we isolate the sweet from the > sour in a soup? We can't isolate the sweet from the sour, but we do recognize the sweet, sour, bitter in the soup from experience. In the same way, can we recognize the function, characteristic etc. of a single citta and its cetasikas from experience ? Pa-Auk Sayadaw teaches that a meditator should observe clearly from experience every cetasikas and citta in a cittavithi of the present, past and future. It's really amazing, if it's true. with metta, Tzungkuen 34255 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Relationships Hi Rob M, Interesting, this is also in Thailand. Even for the perfections! And also the way to remember the cittas with roots, and how many roots. Nina. op 28-06-2004 13:38 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > Last night, my wife and I went to the temple to sit in on a visiting > Burmese monk's Abhidhamma class. The Burmese approach to teaching > Abhidhamma is very different. They memorize strings of Pali names for > cittas by reciting mnemonics: > Som sa di sam asan > Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam asankharikham ekam > Som sa di sam sasan > Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam sasankharikham ekam 34256 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (15) Dear Sarah, A. Sujin explains always: when there is a moment of satipatthana, thus, understanding of nama or rupa, there are these three trainings at the same time: adhisiila-sikkhaa, adhicitta-sikkhaa, adhipaññaa-sikkhaa. There is sila, the six doors are guarded, there is firmness of citta and understanding. But B. Bodhi speaks about different contexts. Nina. op 28-06-2004 10:41 schreef sarah abbott op sarahprocterabbott@y...: From B. Bodhi. > Just below, the Buddha explains the training > in the higher virtue (adhisiila-sikkhaa) as the restraint of the > Paatimokkha, the code of monastic rules; the training in the higher mind > (adhicitta-sikkhaa), as the four jhaanas (defined by the usual formula); > and the training in the higher wisdom (adhipaññaa-sikkhaa), as either the > knowledge of the four noble truths or liberation from the taints (AN > 3:88-89/I 235-36). 34257 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa Questions Dear Rob M, op 28-06-2004 09:42 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > I note that the kalapas produced by kamma do not include the rupas of > buoyancy (lahuta), plasticity (muduta) or wieldiness (kammannata). I > am okay with that. The Tiika to Vis explained this: if by kamma it would be all the time. These three rupas are rupas of changeability. They are not produced al the time by one of the three factors. When kamma produces eyesense, it does so at the three submoments of citta throughout life. This cannot be the case for the above three rupas. R: I note that the kalapas produced by citta include: > - Pure octads > - Body intimation nonad (pure octad + body intimation rupa) > - Vocal intimation decad (pure octad + vocal intimation rupa + sound) > - Pure octad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > - Body intimation nonad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > - Vocal intimation decad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > > Can I assume that the first three are only produced by those cittas > without the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness N: No, these three cetasikas arise with each sobhana citta. Thus, if kusala citta produces them they accompany citta. The cetasikas have no spevcial relation with the rupas of that name. R:and that > the last three are only produced by those cittas including the > cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness? N: No, same reason. R: I note that the kalapas produced by temperature include: > - Pure octad > - Pure octad + sound > - Pure octad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > - Pure octad + sound + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > R: Can I assume that the first two are only produced asynchronous of > mental states (in inanimate objects) and during those cittas without > the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness and that the > last two are only produced during those cittas including the > cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness (i.e. kusala cittas)? N: No, same reason. Also in the body some rupas produced by temperature. Heat outside affects the body. Temperature can produce octad + sound, thus sound nonad. I wrote in my Tiika 79: R: I know that the first two will continue to be produced after death > (these are what a corpse is made of). At what point do the last two > stop to be produced? At the dissolution moment of the cuti citta? N: When the cuticitta falls away no more rupas produced by kamma, citta, nutrition. The rupas of the corpse are produced by temperature, just as in the case of what we call dead matter, such as a rock. R: I note that the kalapas produced by nutrition include: > - Pure octad > - Pure octad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > > Can I assume that the first is only produced during those cittas > without the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness and that > the last is only produced during those cittas including the cetasikas > of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness (i.e. kusala cittas)? N: See above. During cittas? Nutrition is another factor, separate from citta. Outside food is taken, consumed, permeates the body and then nutrition rupa produces other units. Also nutrition is part of a unit or kalapa. Vis 35-80 and the Tiika deal with rupas and their different classifications. They are to be found in the archives. Nina. 34258 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 10:57pm Subject: Thai Chanting Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Interesting, this is also in Thailand. Even for the perfections! And also > the way to remember the cittas with roots, and how many roots. > Nina. > op 28-06-2004 13:38 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > > Last night, my wife and I went to the temple to sit in on a visiting > > Burmese monk's Abhidhamma class. The Burmese approach to teaching > > Abhidhamma is very different. They memorize strings of Pali names for > > cittas by reciting mnemonics: > > Som sa di sam asan > > Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam asankharikham ekam > > Som sa di sam sasan > > Somanassa-sahagatam ditthigata-sampayuttam sasankharikham ekam From time to time, my wife and I attend a chanting session in the Thai style. In this style, chanting is done in Pali, but the breaks in the chant do not occur at the breaks between words. There is a break after a fixed number of syllables, irrespective of if this is the end of the word or the middle of the word. I find it most unnerving as it makes the Pali almost unintelligible. Any idea why they chant this way? Metta, Rob M :-) 34259 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:21pm Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Rob M, I am probably misreading you, but this took me by surprise: ----------------------- RM: > Saying that one can observe the paramattha dhammas implies that they can be isolated from each other. Can we isolate the sweet from the sour in a soup? > ----------------------- I agree we can't deliberately isolate paramattha dhammas. For example, we can't decree, "Let the rupa known as `sweet flavour' become the object of taste consciousness." But conditions isolate paramattha dhammas every second of the day, do they not? How would we know what is meant by the term "sweet flavour," if that rupa hadn't (on repeated occasions) been the sole object of taste consciousness? Kind regards, Ken H 34260 From: robmoult Date: Mon Jun 28, 2004 11:47pm Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > I am probably misreading you, but this took me by surprise: > ----------------------- > RM: > Saying that one can observe the paramattha dhammas implies > that they can be isolated from each other. Can we isolate the sweet > from the sour in a soup? > > ----------------------- > > I agree we can't deliberately isolate paramattha dhammas. For > example, we can't decree, "Let the rupa known as `sweet flavour' > become the object of taste consciousness." But conditions isolate > paramattha dhammas every second of the day, do they not? How would > we know what is meant by the term "sweet flavour," if that rupa > hadn't (on repeated occasions) been the sole object of taste > consciousness? My sweet-sour was an analogy, but you raise an interesting point. There is only one rupa called flavour; the object of tongue consciousness. As a paramattha dhamma, sweet flavour rupa is not distinguished from sour flavour rupa. The way in which we analyze something depends on the purpose of the analysis. For example, a chemist may analyze water as being made up of hydrogen and oxygen while a physicist may analyze water as being made up of protons, neutrons and electrons. The Buddha's focus was on the mind and the mind perceives through the senses. The Abhidhamma analyzes rupa according to how it presents itself to the senses. To the Abhidhamma, "sweet" and "sour" are identical; they are both objects of taste consciousness (slight caveat; one can segregate objects of taste consciousness into undesireable (anittha), desireable-neutral (ittha) and extremely desireable (ati-ittha)... but that is another discussion entirely :-) ). Sweet-sour was intended as an analogy of the mental state. When through sati we are aware of a mental state, there are in fact, a multitude of cetasikas together with the citta. One cannot isolate any of the cetasikas. We "taste them as a mixture". You wrote, "But conditions isolate paramattha dhammas every second of the day, do they not?" I disagree. Paramattha dhammas never arise in isolation (though one might argue that Nibbana arises in isolation). We can understand the intellectually in isolation (Nina conveniently dedicates a chapter to each of the cetasikas in her excellent book), but we can only experience them as a mixture. Metta, Rob M :-) 34261 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 0:06am Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (17) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi When Do the Jhaanas Become Necessary? (4) A theoretical foundation for Diighaavu's approach might be gleaned from another sutta. At AN 4:169/II 155-56, the Buddha contrasts two kinds of non-returners: one who attains final Nibbaana without exertion (asa,nkhaara-parinibbaayii), and one who attains final Nibbaana with exertion (sasa,nkhaara-parinibbaayii). The former is one who enters and dwells in the four jhaanas (described by the stock formula). The latter practises instead the "austere" meditations such as the contemplation of the foulness of the body, reflection on the repulsiveness of food, disenchantment with the whole world, perception of impermanence in all formations, and recollection of death.[37] Again, there is no categorical assertion that the latter is altogether bereft of jhaana, but the contrast of this type with one who gains the four jhaanas suggests this as a possibility. Though the possibility that there might be non-returners without jhaanas cannot be ruled out, from the Nikaayas we can elicit several reasons why we might normally expect a non-returner to have access to them. One reason is inherent in the very act of becoming a non-returner. In ascending from the stage of once-returner to that of non-returner, the meditator eradicates two fetters that had been merely weakened by the once-returner: sensual desire (kaamacchanda) and ill will (byaapaada). Now these two fetters are also the first two among the five hindrances, the defilements to be abandoned to gain the jhaanas. This suggests that by eradicating these defilements the non-returner permanently removes the main obstacles to concentration. Thus, if his mind so inclines, the non-returner should not find it difficult to enter upon the jhaanas. Another reason why non-returners should be gainers of the jhaanas, while stream-enterers and once-returners need not be so, pertains to their future destination in sa.msaara. Though all three types of disciple have escaped the plane of misery - rebirth in hell, the animal realm, and the sphere of ghosts - stream-enterers and once-returners are still liable to rebirth in the sensuous realm (kaamadhaatu), while non-returners are utterly freed from the prospect of such a rebirth. What keeps the former in bondage to the sensuous realm is the fetter of sensual desire (kaamacchanda), which remains inwardly unabandoned by them. If they succeed in attaining the jhaanas, they can suppress sensual desire (and the other mental hindrances) and thus achieve rebirth in the form or formless realms. But this is not fixed for noble disciples at the lower two stages, who normally expect only a fortunate rebirth in the human realm or the sense-sphere heavens. Non-returners, on the other hand, are so called precisely because they never again return to the sensuous realm. They have eliminated sensual desire, observe celibacy, and enjoy a high degree of facility in meditation. At death, the non-returner takes rebirth spontaneously in the form realm (generally in the Pure Abodes) and attains final Nibbaana there without ever returning from that world. ****** Notes 37. AN II 156: Idha bhikkhu asubhaanupassii kaaye viharati, aahaare pa.tikkuulasa--ii, sabbaloke anabhiratasa--ii, sabbasa,nkhaaresu aniccaanupassii, mara.nasa--aa pan'assa ajjhatta.m suupa.t.thitaa hoti. 34262 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 1:15am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Relationships/Change Hi Rob, The development of the discussion has unfortunately required that I go to a book :-) The Samyutta Nikaya XXII.79 (Khajjaniya Sutta or Chewed Up) has ruppatiti rupam in the following context. "And why do you call it 'form' (rupa)? Because it is afflicted (ruppati), thus it is called 'form.' Afflicted with what? With cold & heat & hunger & thirst, with the touch of flies, mosquitoes, wind, sun, & reptiles. Because it is afflicted, it is called form. " I have also seen ruppatiti rendered as "in which there is change". Form is subject to change, it has the nature of change. You wrote: "Perception of change (watching an airplane fly across the sky) is mundane and can lead to worldly knowledge. Perception of anicca (a characteristic of paramattha dhammas) is profound and can lead to insight." I ask: Are you saying that the perception that form is inconstant cannot lead to insight? Thank you Herman 34263 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:16am Subject: [dsg] Re: Relationships/Change Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > You wrote: > "Perception of change (watching an airplane fly across the sky) is > mundane and can lead to worldly knowledge. > > Perception of anicca (a characteristic of paramattha dhammas) is > profound and can lead to insight." > > I ask: > > Are you saying that the perception that form is inconstant cannot lead > to insight? Perhaps we are having a definition problem. In my definition, the perception that form is inconstant, impermanent, arising only for an instant, momentary, transitory, etc. can lead to insight. The perception that a chicken is changing its position (crossing the road) might lead to worldly knowledge (or a bad joke :-) ), but it cannot lead to insight. In my definition, "perception of change" is not the same as "perception of impermanence". Metta, Rob M :-) 34264 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:54am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Relationships/Change Hi Rob, Some more comments below. ============================================= Perhaps we are having a definition problem. In my definition, the perception that form is inconstant, impermanent, arising only for an instant, momentary, transitory, etc. can lead to insight. The perception that a chicken is changing its position (crossing the road) might lead to worldly knowledge (or a bad joke :-) ), but it cannot lead to insight. In my definition, "perception of change" is not the same as "perception of impermanence". ============================================== I think this is a very worthwhile clarification. Perception of impermanence can occur with any individual phenomenon, whether simple or compound (Chicken, no chicken). Perception of change always requires a comparison of at least two phenomena, coupled with a notion of some invariance despite whatever variance (chicken X here, chicken X there). The following is perhaps a bit naughty, but given the very insightful clarification above, why the persistence of the Buddhist (I think there could be a pun there) with the notion of beings (chickens) crossing the road (cuti citta) ? Was it the same Gautama that was born as the one that died? We don't get "Rocky and Bullwinkle" anymore, but I think "The Bill" might be on :-) Herman 34265 From: kenhowardau Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:05am Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Rob M, -------------- RM: > There is only one rupa called flavour; the object of tongue consciousness. As a paramattha dhamma, sweet flavour rupa is not distinguished from sour flavour rupa. --------------- Thank you, I stand corrected. ---------------- <. . . .> RM: > Sweet-sour was intended as an analogy of the mental state. When through sati we are aware of a mental state, there are in fact, a multitude of cetasikas together with the citta. One cannot isolate any of the cetasikas. We "taste them as a mixture". > --------------- That's interesting. When you say, "mental state" you mean citta, I assume. But citta, cetasika and rupa are all potential objects of citta. So, let me get this straight. Suppose, in a tongue-door citta- process, javana citta, accompanied by pleasant mental feeling (sukha- vedana), experiences flavour; that citta does not know pleasure, does it? It only knows flavour. Now suppose, in the following mind- door citta-viti, the said sukha-vedana is taken as the object of consciousness. Is there now an experience of pleasure? ----------------- RM: > You wrote, "But conditions isolate paramattha dhammas every second of the day, do they not?" I disagree. Paramattha dhammas never arise in isolation (though one might argue that Nibbana arises in isolation). ------------------ True. We might be talking at cross-purposes. Sense-consciousness takes, as its object, only one dhamma at a time, doesn't it? So, in that way of speaking, the sense-object dhamma has been isolated. --------------------- RM: > We can understand them intellectually in isolation (Nina conveniently dedicates a chapter to each of the cetasikas in her excellent book), but we can only experience them as a mixture. > --------------------- Sorry, I'm still not comprehending. Can you put it another way, please? (I notice that you said above, "When, *through sati* we are aware of a mental state." So perhaps you are talking about vipassana while I am talking about ordinary experience (consciousness). (?)) Ken H 34266 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:11am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Rob, You wrote : =========================================================== My sweet-sour was an analogy, but you raise an interesting point. There is only one rupa called flavour; the object of tongue consciousness. As a paramattha dhamma, sweet flavour rupa is not distinguished from sour flavour rupa. The way in which we analyze something depends on the purpose of the analysis. For example, a chemist may analyze water as being made up of hydrogen and oxygen while a physicist may analyze water as being made up of protons, neutrons and electrons. The Buddha's focus was on the mind and the mind perceives through the senses. The Abhidhamma analyzes rupa according to how it presents itself to the senses. To the Abhidhamma, "sweet" and "sour" are identical; they are both objects of taste consciousness (slight caveat; one can segregate objects of taste consciousness into undesireable (anittha), desireable-neutral (ittha) and extremely desireable (ati-ittha)... but that is another discussion entirely :-) ). =============================================================== I ask: Does the Abhidhamma allow for degrees in matter? I would think that the earth element is not only hardness, but also softness, governed by the degree of its presence. What is ultraviolet as opposed to infrared if not a matter of degree? The Bill is on Herman 34267 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:17am Subject: Right thinking (was Re: Virtues of the Buddha?) Hello all Thanks for all the feedback on this thread. One dhamma friend contacted me off-list and directed me to the Mahanama Sutta (AN XI13) http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an11-013.html Here is a passage: "There is the case where you recollect the Tathagata: 'Indeed, the Blessed One is worthy and rightly self-awakened, consummate in knowledge & conduct, well-gone, an expert with regard to the world, unexcelled as a trainer for those people fit to be tamed, the Teacher of divine & human beings, awakened, blessed.' At any time when a disciple of the noble ones is recollecting the Tathagata, his mind is not overcome with passion, not overcome with aversion, not overcome with delusion. His mind heads straight, based on the Tathagata. And when the mind is headed straight, the disciple of the noble ones gains a sense of the goal, gains a sense of the Dhamma, gains joy connected with the Dhamma. In one who is joyful, rapture arises. In one who is rapturous, the body grows calm. One whose body is calmed experiences ease. In one at ease, the mind becomes concentrated." This seems very important to me. I think of the 4 right exertions. What are "wholesome thoughts" that are developed and maintained? Is the content of the mind at the rising of these 3rd and 4th exertions not right thought? What content can be purer than recollection of the Buddha's virtues? I suppose conceit and lobha could easily creep in - would creep in - but the sutta passage encourages that we will not be overcome by passion, aversion, delusion. I am hard pressed to think of anything more wholesome to think about. Expect perhaps the Brahma-Viharas. And indeed, the reason I was asking about the virtues of the Buddha is that I was wondering just what the content of wholesome thoughts would be. We do think, and find ourselves thinking. At least I do. I aspire to investigate realities in the moment, but as Nina said in the "dustrag" thread the other day, we are worldlings and have our limits. I do find myself thinking in a much more conventional way, and am more aware of the content than I used to be. The above sutta passge seems to be in praise of consciously dwelling on a wholesome topic, with various wholesome results. A flowchart that might look like this: recollection of Tathagata -> sense of the goal -> sense of the Dhamma -> joy connected with Dhamma ->rapture -> calm -> concentration. I always seem to get restless when I get to the joy part, but it is a promising progression. In Nina's "Buddhism in Daily Life", right thinking is described more in terms of a cetasika with a specific funtion within the process of investigating realities: "When there is seeing which is nama, there is also visible object which is rupa, but only one reality at a time can be object of mindfulness. It is the function of samma-sankappa to "touch" the reality appearing at the present moment so that right understanding can investigate its characteristics.( phil's note: the same page identifies samma-sankappa as right thinking, which is vitakka, a cetasika, usually translated as "applied thought.") Right understanding needs right thinking in order to investigate the chracteristics of nama and rupa and to see realities as they are." (132) So here right thinking has got a very specific function in the process of investigating realities. It feels close to the "investigation of realities" factor of enlightenment. I appreciate this, and also appreciate right thinking referring to the content of thoughts, as in this recollection of the Buddha's virtues. How do you all see right thinking? I suppose as with so many aspects of dhamma, there are different levels, and the right thinking Nina writes about is at a deeper level? Thanks in advance for your feedback. And thanks to the dhamma friend who directed me to this very interesting sutta. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > I find these days that for various reasons I am wanting to > reflect on the virtues or qualities of the Buddha, but I don't know > exactly what they are so I find myself thinking about the Brahma- > Viharas. > > What are the traditional lists, if you will, of the virtues of the > Buddha that are used in such recollections? > > Thanks in advance. And thanks in passing to Sarah and Nina for > messages that I won't be able to respond to until tomorrow. And > thanks to Christine for the fab Dhammapada links! :) > > Metta, > Phil 34268 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:18am Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (18) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi When Do the Jhaanas Become Necessary? (5) The non-returner severs all connection with the sensuous realm by eliminating the fetter of sensual desire, and this establishes a certain correspondence between the non-returner and the ordinary jhaana-attainer. The texts sometimes speak of the worldling jhaana-attainer as "an outsider devoid of lust for sensual pleasures."[38] If he retains mastery over a jhaana at the time of death, his sublime kamma leads him to rebirth in the form realm, the specific plane of rebirth being determined by his degree of mastery over the jhaanas. However, while both the ordinary jhaana-attainer and the non-returner are devoid of sensual desire and bound for rebirth in a non-sensuous realm, the two are divided by deep and fundamental differences. The ordinary jhaana-attainer has not fully eliminated any fetters and thus, with a slip of mindfulness, can easily fall victim to sensuality; the non-returner, in contrast, has cut off sensual desire and ill will at the root, ensuring that they will never again arise in him. He is not reborn in the form realm merely through the wholesome kamma generated by the jhaanas, like the ordinary jhaana-attainer, but because he has eradicated the two fetters that bind even the once-returner to the sensuous realm. This difference implies still another difference concerning their long-term fate. The ordinary jhaana-attainer, after being reborn in the form realm, eventually exhausts the powerful meritorious kamma responsible for this sublime rebirth and might then take rebirth in the sensuous realm, even in the nether world. The non-returner, on the other hand, never falls away. Set firmly on the path of the Dhamma, the non-returner who is reborn in the form realm continues to develop the path without ever regressing until he attains final Nibbaana within the form realm itself.[39] ****** Notes 38. MN III 255: Baahiraka kaamesu viitaraaga. 39. See AN 4:123/II 126-28, which contrasts the worldling who attains the jhaanas with the Buddhist disciple who attains them. 34269 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:44am Subject: [dsg] Re: The dangers of hanging around only with like-minded people Hi Herman H:> I've got another GREAT reminder for you :-) (snip) > H> You don't HAVE TO go to work!!! How good is that!! I am sure that you > can list a thousand reasons why you think you have to, but I suspect > that most of them will come down to desires/aversions. Ph: Interesting point. Actually, today I was thinking about the way I'd divided work from leisure in the previous post. And a purist would say that you don't HAVE TO have leisure time - investigation of realities can arise anywhere, anytime. But I ain't there yet. I'll stick with my unwholesome clinging to my Wednesday - my day to be alone at home once a week. And I'll stick with bread on the table for the time being, at least. ;) Metta, Phil 34270 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:50am Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > RM: > Sweet-sour was intended as an analogy of the mental state. > When through sati we are aware of a mental state, there are in fact, > a multitude of cetasikas together with the citta. One cannot isolate > any of the cetasikas. We "taste them as a mixture". > > --------------- > > That's interesting. When you say, "mental state" you mean citta, I > assume. But citta, cetasika and rupa are all potential objects of > citta. > > So, let me get this straight. Suppose, in a tongue-door citta- > process, javana citta, accompanied by pleasant mental feeling (sukha- > vedana), experiences flavour; that citta does not know pleasure, > does it? It only knows flavour. Now suppose, in the following mind- > door citta-viti, the said sukha-vedana is taken as the object of > consciousness. Is there now an experience of pleasure? ===== There may be lobha-mula javana cittas in the tongue door citta process but they are not attached to the specific object (i.e. liking sweet); rather they are attached to the sense itself (taking pleasure in sensing). To quote Bhikkhu Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (p163), "Just as when a gong is struck once by a baton, the gong sends forth a continuous stream of reverberations, so when one of the five sense doors has been impinged upon once by a sense object, after the five-door process has ceased the past object comes into the range at the mind door and sets off many sequences of mind- door processes. Because these cognitive processes come as the sequel to the five door process, they are known as consequent processes. They are counted fivefold by way of the five sense-door proceses which they follow. Ledi Sayadaw explains that it is in these consequent processes that distinct recognition of the object occurs; such recognition does not occur in a bare five-door process itself. An eye door process, for example, is followed first by a conformational mind-door process (tadanu-vattika manodvaravithi), which reproduces in the mind door the object just perceived in the sense-door process. Then comes a process of grasping the object as a whole (samudayagahika); then a process recognizing the colour (vannasallakkhana); then a process grasping the entity (vatthigahika); then a process recognizing the entity (vatthusallakkhana); then a process grasping the name (namagahika); then a process recognizing the name (namasallankkhana)." To extend this process, once the name has been recognized, then the feelings associated with that name are recalled. These feelings form the basis for mental proliferation (papanca). I recently saw an interesting program on Discovery channel. A man suffered brain damage in a car accident and when he came out of his coma, he was able to recognize his mother and his girlfriend but he insisted that they were look-alike imposters. Doctors discovered that the "recognizing the name" part of his brain worked fine, but that this part of the brain was connected to a separate part of the brain in which feeling associated with names were stored. In his case, the connection was broken and when his mother's face did not cause "mother feelings" to arise, the man concluded that the woman was a look-alike imposter, not his mother. Going back to your example of the object arising at the tongue door. In his preface to the PTS version of the Abhidhammatthasangaha (p35), Shwe Zan Aung comments that the "name grasping" and the "meaning grasping" processes are reversed for sound objects. However, for the tongue door, I believe that we can use Ledi Sayadaw's visible object process as a model. In other words, at the tongue-door process, there is only attachment to the stimulation of the tongue. The next step is the grasping the flavour in a set of mind-door processes, followed by the grasping of the feelings associated with the flavour. I don't think that naming takes place. If somebody out there has a copy of Ledi Sayadaw's Paramatthadipani Sangaha Maha Tika (I don't think that it has been translated), please check this detail. For example, my wife likes spicy food and I like bland food. This liking or disliking of flavour does not arise during the tongue door process. As it says in the Honeyball Sutta (Mn 18): Feeling -> Naming -> Thinking About -> Mental Profliferation ===== > > ----------------- > RM: > You wrote, "But conditions isolate paramattha dhammas every > second of the day, do they not?" I disagree. Paramattha dhammas > never arise in isolation (though one might argue that Nibbana arises > in isolation). > ------------------ > > True. We might be talking at cross-purposes. Sense-consciousness > takes, as its object, only one dhamma at a time, doesn't it? So, in > that way of speaking, the sense-object dhamma has been isolated. ===== As mentioned above, each sense-door process is followed by a large number of consequent mind-door processes (Shwe Zan Aung puts the number as "several hundred thousand"). Except for the conformal mind- door process, the object of these consequent mind-door processes is a concept, not a paramattha dhamma. ===== > > --------------------- > > RM: > We can understand them intellectually in isolation (Nina > conveniently dedicates a chapter to each of the cetasikas in her > excellent book), but we can only experience them as a mixture. > > --------------------- > > Sorry, I'm still not comprehending. Can you put it another way, > please? > (I notice that you said above, "When, *through sati* we are aware of > a mental state." So perhaps you are talking about vipassana while > I am talking about ordinary experience (consciousness). (?)) ===== Ken H, are you trying to trap me again!?! One doesn't need vipassana (formal meditation, heaven forbid!) to have sati (mindfulness) of the present moment :-) You sly devil :-) What do you mean by "ordinary experience"? From anybody else, I would take it at face value, but in your case, I smell a trap :-) :-) :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 34271 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 6:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I ask: Does the Abhidhamma allow for degrees in matter? I would think > that the earth element is not only hardness, but also softness, governed > by the degree of its presence. > > What is ultraviolet as opposed to infrared if not a matter of degree? > > The Bill is on There are degrees, but they are not important to the Abhidhamma. Let's go back to basics. The purpose of the analysis of rupa is to understand the senses, not to create a model of matter itself. If something is soft or hard, it is still impacts the body-sense. Gradiations of softness or hardness are not important if we are focusing on sense stimulation. Softness sense stimulation and hardness sense stimulation are equivalent in the eyes of the Abhidhamma (there are some subtlities of anittha / ittha / ati- ittha, but that is a digression). I am curious... What is this thing, "The Bill"? My guess is that it is a TV show that has not yet found its way to Malaysia. Metta, Rob M :-) 34272 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:39am Subject: The Hindrances ! Friends: There are these 5 mental Hindrances: 1: Sense-Desire 2: Ill-Will 3: Lethargy-&-Laziness 4: Restlessness-&-Regret 5: Doubt-&-Uncertainty These block vision of reality, create ignorance and hinder all progress towards peace, freedom & bliss. What Causes these 5 mental hindrances ? & What Cures these 5 mental hindrances ? Irrational attention to the attractive aspect makes desire arise & grow. Rational attention to the disgusting feature prevents & ceases desire. Irrational attention to the repulsive aspect makes ill-will arise & grow. Rational attention to universal friendliness prevents & ceases ill-will. Unnoticed boredom & drowsiness make lethargy-&-laziness arise & grow. Initiative, launching & endurance prevent & cease lethargy-&-laziness. Unnoticed mental agitation makes restlessness-&-regret arise & grow. Mental calming & bodily calming prevent & cease restlessness-&-regret. Irrationally neglecting the causes makes doubt-&-uncertainty arise & grow. Rational attention to the causes prevents & ceases doubt-&-uncertainty. These are the causes & the cures of the 5 mental hindrances... --oo0oo-- What Buddha actually said about this in detail: http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita/Canon/Sutta/AN/AN.I.3-4.html All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 34273 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 7:09am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: The dangers of hanging around only with like-minded people Thanks for your post, Philip, Ph: Interesting point. Actually, today I was thinking about the way I'd divided work from leisure in the previous post. And a purist would say that you don't HAVE TO have leisure time - investigation of realities can arise anywhere, anytime. H: Can it ? You have to ask yourself very seriously, as I do, why, if investigation of realities can arise anywhere, anytime, the Buddha-to-be felt it was necessary to leave his family, wife, baby, social obligations, and comforts, all to sleep on the leaves of the forest floor? What mechanism is at play when middle-class laity embraces the words of the truly renouncing hero from the comfort of a high bed? "The Bill" has well and truly finished. I forgot to ask my wife what it was about this time :-). Herman 34274 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:35am Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 7 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 7 We read in the ³Satipatthånasutta² that these four Applications are the only way for reaching the right path, for the attainment of nibbåna. The Commentary states: ³The Real Eightfold Path is called the right path. Verily, this preliminary, mundane Way of the Arousing of Mindfulness made to become (grown or cultivated) is conducive to the realisation of the Supramundane Way.² While satipatthåna is being developed, the Path is still mundane, but eventually it leads to enlightenment. At the moment of enlightenment the eightfold Path, paññå and the accompanying factors, have become supramundane, lokuttara. The Buddha, in his great compassion, taught us that there is dhamma at this moment in our daily life. All the sections of the four Applications pertain to daily life and they can remind us to develop understanding of nåma and rúpa at this moment, in the midst of our activities. We should not be neglectful because life is short and we do not know when we will have an opportunity to listen again to the true Dhamma. Acharn Sujin exhorted us to have patience and not to expect an immediate result of the development of understanding. She said: ³If we know how much ignorance we have accumulated it will prevent us from trying to hasten the development of paññå. The Abhidhamma helps us to understand that there are many processes of cittas arising and falling away very rapidly. When we see visible object, not only seeing arises in that process, but also many other cittas. Seeing is closely followed by the javana-cittas (impulsion) that are either kusala cittas or akusala cittas. When we do not apply ourselves to dåna (generosity), síla (morality) or bhåvanå (mental development), the javana-cittas are akusala cittas. The eye-door process is followed by a mind-door process with javana-cittas that are kusala cittas or akusala cittas. Countless processes of cittas with akusala javana-cittas arise, but we do not realize this. Kusala citta arises seldom and thus we can understand that it must take a long time to develop paññå. Right understanding can be developed of one object at a time so that there can be firm and clear understanding of nåma and rúpa. When insight knowledge arises there is no doubt that ŒI¹ does not exist, that there are only different elements arising and falling away.² The understanding that ³there is no person², only paramattha dhammas arising and falling away, does not mean that we should not care for other people. On the contrary, when we have less clinging to the ³self² kusala can become purer. We have accumulated so much selfish clinging and therefore we may easily confuse mettå and attachment. We may perform kind deeds in order to be liked by others. We like to have friends so that we do not feel lonely. When we develop genuine mettå we shall cling less to people. When kusala citta with mettå arises there is true friendship, and there is no need to long for kindness from others in return. ***** Nina. 34275 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:35am Subject: Wheel sutta corrected This is a correction of the post last week, June 25, about the Wheel sutta. The Wheel Sutta. Cattaarimaani bhikkhave, cakkaani, four (pl) fold/ monks/ wheels these are the four wheels, monks, yehi samannaagataana.m devamanussaana.m catucakka.m vattati, by which/ possessed/ for devas and men/ four wheels/ rolls and for devas and men who possess these, fourfold prosperity is rolling on. yehi samannaagataa devamanussaa of which/ possessed/ devas and men The devas and men who are possessed of these nacirasseva mahantatta.m vepullatta.m paapu.nanti bhogesu. in no long time/ greatness/ abundance / attain/ /in prosperity reach in no long time greatness and abundance in prosperity. Katamaani cattaari? which ones/the four? Which are the four? Patiruupa/desa/vaaso, sappurisa/avassayo suitable/region/living noble persons/association Living in a suitable place, association with noble persons, atta/sammaa/pa.nidhi/, pubbe ca kata/pu~n~nataa- self/right/ aspiration/ formerly/ and/ done/ meritorious deeds the establishing of oneself in the right course, and having formerly done deeds of merit. imaani kho, bhikkhave, cattaari cakkaani, these/indeed/ monks/ four/ wheels, These are truly, monks, the four wheels, yehi samannaagataana.m devamanussaana.m catucakka.m vattati, and the devas and men who are possessed of these yehi samannaagataa devamanussaa nacirasseva mahantatta.m vepullatta.m paapu.nanti bhogesuu>ti. reach in no long time greatness and abundance in prosperity. Verse: Patiruupe vase dese, Suitable/live/in a place A man should live in a suitable place ariya/mitta/karo siyaa; noble/friend/making/ there may be have noble friendship; sammaa/pa.nidhi/sampanno, right/aspiration/endowed be well established in the right course; pubbe pu~n~nakato naro; formerly/merit done/ a man and have formerly done deeds of merit; dha~n~na.m dhana.m yaso kitti, grain/ wealth/ honour/fame grain, wealth, honour, fame, sukha~nceta.m adhivattatii>ti. happiness/and/this/roll and happiness come to him in abundance. Commentary: as to association with noble persons, the Co remarks: drawing near and sitting close to the Buddha etc. N: this means: listening to noble persons. Co: As to right establishing of oneself: someone may have many activities and has no confidence in kusala, but then he may have abandoned this lack of confidence and applied himself to all good qualities such as confidence. As to meritorious deeds formerly done, this means that someone has accumulated kusala kamma. This is the subject of this sutta: because of kusala kamma performed by the citta that is accompanied by paññaa is the condition for someone to enter a suitable country, to meet a noble person and thus he will become well established in the right course. As to sukha~nceta.m adhivattatii: that happiness will be abundant and overwhelming for him. Nina. 34276 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:35am Subject: Intro to Vis. XIV, 84 Intro to Vis. XIV, 84 As the Visuddhimagga states, there are eight types of kusala cittas of the sense sphere. The Visuddhimagga illustrates, to begin with, the first and the second type. These are: 1) accompained by pleasant feeling, connected with wisdom, unprompted somanassa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-sampayutta.m, asa²nkhaarikam eka.m 2) accompained by pleasant feeling, connected with wisdom, prompted somanassa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-sampayutta.m, sasa²nkhaarikam eka.m **** These types of citta are not abstract categories, and the Visuddhimagga gives us examples from daily life. The Tiika elaborates on these and gives more explanations of the conditions for these cittas. It mentions again the conditions of the place where one lives, the time when one lives, and these have to be favorable. Moreover, friendship with a noble person is most important. One has to develop the enlightenment factors and the Tiika mentions the enlightenment factor of rapture (piiti) that is a condition for the first type of kusala citta to be accompanied by pleasant feeling, and also the enlightenment factor of (dhammavicaya, pañña) which is a condition for the kusala citta to be accompanied by pañña. As we have seen (in my Intro to Vis. 83), We read in the ³Expositor² (p. 101) about the conditions for the enlightenment factor of Investigation of Dhamma: As to cleansing of things and substances, this is personal cleanliness of the body, of clothes and dwelling, as the Commentary to the Satipa.t.thaanasutta explains. Equalizing of the faculties pertains to the balancing of the faculties of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and wisdom. Thus we see that also physical factors are conditions for wisdom. We read in the Co. to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 27): <...But here the accompaniment of happiness is due to such causes as strong faith, gaining insight, having someone to receive the requisites, and so on...> We read about the kusala citta that is unprompted in the Co to Abh. Sangaha (T.A. p. 27,28): Seeing the value of kusala is stressed time and again as a condition for the arising of kusala citta. Learning about the different ways of kusala can be a condition for the arising of kusala citta more often. It helps one not to overlook opportunities for kusala as they occur in daily life. The Tiika refers to the ten bases of meritorious actions, the ways of kusala that can be performed by one of the eight kusala cittas of the sense sphere. They are mentioned by the Expositor (p. 210, 211): charity, sila (this includes observing precepts, the monk¹s sila, etc. and also the guarding of the sense-doors), mental development (including samatha and vipassana), paying respect, dutifulness and helping, sharing of one¹s merit, appreciation of others¹ kusala, explaining the Dhamma, listening to the Dhamma, rectifying one¹s views. The difference between the first type of kusala citta and the second type which is prompted can remind us that there are different degrees of accumulated sobhana cetasikas. People have different degrees of confidence in kusala, of generosity and of other qualities. We read in the Visuddhimagga that a person may give . This example indicates that there are different degrees of kusala and that these are conditioned by past accumulations. Nobody can direct the citta to be in this way or that way. **** Nina. 34277 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Dear Rob M and Tzung Kuen, op 29-06-2004 04:33 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...:> > The bhavanga citta is not a paramattha dhamma. It is a mixture of the > paramattha dhamma citta (consciousness) and a set of cetasikas. a characteristic of continuity of mental states can be observed and > from this, one can "observe" the bhavanga citta. N: I know what you mean. You realize that there is no break between cittas, and thus you conclude that there is continuity. And that is the function of bhavanga citta. It keeps the continuity in a life. It is a citta, arising and falling away in between processes. As you know, citta and cetasika are paramattha dhammas. They each have their own inalterable characteristic. We can call them citta or cetasika, or give them other names, however, they are realities each with their own characteristic. Also bhavangacitta is a citta, with its own characteristic, function, etc. It is paramattha dhamma. It arises and falls away. N: As to, one can "observe" the bhavanga citta, it depends what one means by observing. It can be thinking or intellectual understanding by inference. R: How could one observe a patisandhi citta during meditation (other > than to say that the bhavanga citta arising now is the same as our > patisandhi citta)? N: Yes, right. I also see it that way, also what you say about cohesion. R: By knowing the characteristic, function, manifestation and proximate > cause of each of the paramattha dhammas, we can put our observations > into context and thereby "observe" the paramattha dhammas. > > Saying that one can observe the paramattha dhammas implies that they > can be isolated from each other. Can we isolate the sweet from the > sour in a soup? N: The trouble is in the word observe. Rob, you put it therefore between brackets. We could say pariyatti, intellectual understanding and considering dhammas conditions pa.tipatti, the arising of sati and pañña. But how could we control which dhammas appear, and how could we control of which dhammas there is awareness? We do not isolate different dhammas, but only one at atime can be object of sati. It can be rupa, citta or a cetasika. They have characteristics appearing one at a time. Seven rupas appear all the time through the senses. Little by little we can learn more about them when they appear. This is the way to understand rupa, the reality that does not know anything, different from nama. Very essential. The hardness is not the nama that experiences. The sound is not hearing. This is the beginning, but knowing the difference between nama and rupa is indispensable. If we say: observe it seems as if there is I who is observing, instead of just dhammas that arise because of their own conditions. And who is aware and understands? Only a dhamma. We cannot tell ahead of time which rupas are going to appear, and to what degree pañña will develop. And which rupas will be known at which stage of development. When time comes we shall know. All the 28 rupas are realities, but not everybody realizes them all. The main thing: we should not take them for mine. We should not have any expectations, it all depends on the accumulated pañña what will be known. It does not matter. , reflection on realities is a kind of meditation, reflection on a sutta is meditation. This is fine. When I write an intro to Vis. this is a kind of meditation. But I would not set a certain time or limit the time to be aware of any dhamma appearing in daily life. They are everywhere, not just in a special place or at a certain time. Hardness here, hardness there, just the same. They appear naturally, just as they are. But people are afraid to be distracted in daily life. I would say: do not worry, you will see for yourself what happens when you do not restrict awareness, but just let sati arise because of its own conditions, in its own time. And to know each citta, cetasika, rupa, of past, present, future: we are not the Buddha. If someone believes he can it may be only thinking. Who can tell? But we should not say it is impossible to know heartbase or bhavangacitta. They are realities, and it depends on a person's accumulated pañña what can be realized. Nina. P.S. I cannot continue this interesting thread now, going away tomorrow for four days. Thus, next week. 34278 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:35am Subject: Re: ???[dsg] Re:dsg] Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (1) Dear Tzung-Kuen Just selecting one point and a few remarks. op 29-06-2004 03:56 schreef Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen op s4060239@s...: > If we chose to practice metta bhavana, we can cause cittas accompanied by > metta to arise. Since the flow of consciousness is also a conditioned dhamma, > we could change it to some degree, otherwise there is no use of moral precept > (sila), charity (dana) and mental development (bhavana). Don¹t we need to > control our verbal, bodily and mental behavior in order to follow the teaching > of the Buddha? N: I learn a lot from Vis and Tiika about all the favorable conditions for kusala citta. Many are in the past (see Wheel sutta) but also now there are many occasions for kusala citta. Knowing about these, such as the ten puñña kiriya vatthus, does help. Reflecting on the Brahma viharas to be practised in daily life does help. Having confidence in the Triple ~Gem, good friendship, all these things help. But this does not mean that we can direct the citta arising at this moment to be metta, upekkha and so on. We would wish to, but impossible. But meanwhile, we go on developing kusala and right understanding as much as we are able to. Nina. 34279 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Wisdom and the factors of enlightenment Hello Philip, op 29-06-2004 00:49 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > the first phrase I came > across was this "making the basis clean", as my edition has it. I > told Naomi about it, and she said "I told you so." She'd often said > that if I meditate when the room is a mess it reflects my messy mind > and makes the whole exercise pointless. I think she was right. :o) N: Very good example. Ph: BTW, my edition (Nanamoli Bhikkhu trans) has "persons without > understanding" rather than "unintelligent persons." Don't you think > the former might be better? N: It is a matter of translation, sometimes it is said foolish. It is as you say, no understanding. > Ph: I like the way the conditions for each factor contain advice about > cultivating (frequenting) certain kinds of people and avoiding > others. I think that is very realistic and practical and it has > inspired me *not* to accept my co-workers' constant invitations to > join them for drinks at a notorious bar where they go to get drunk > and "chat up" boozy women. I was starting to waver but I will stay > home and "chat up" my DSG friends instead. (And Naomi, of > course.) :) N: I like your vivid example. Conditions just work out for you. Think of the Wheel sutta: good friendship. >Ph: What does Vis 84 mean?In my edition this section is in Chapter > IV, 54. N: Sorry: Vis. XIV, 84, Larry just posted it. The previous one we did with Larry, Vis. XIV, 83, was the first one about the eight types of kusala citta of the sense-sphere. Icaro just typed them out. this is the second one. You can jump right in. A good idea if you and others ask more questions. Any basic question, you call it a beginner's Q. , about this important subject is most wellcome. Mostly I try to write an intro to link the texts to daily life, so that people see that the subject is not about abstract notions, so that we do not forget the goal of our study. With this I also remind myself. Ph: "When we have performed kusala kamma we can extend merit to others that are able to appreciate our good deeds, and this is a form of dana, of generosity. It is beneficial to do this, because at such a moment the citta is accompanied by metta. We think of the well being of someone else, we give him the opportunity to have kusala citta with appreciation of our kusala.... I don't know if this kind of "extending merit" would be included in "transference of merit", technically speaking, N: Yes, the same. We like to help others to have more kusala citta, and we also have kusala citta when appreciating someone else's kusala. Giving a helpful link, or writing out the eight types of kusala citta, etc. We can appreciate that, so, the citta is kusala citta. It is a way of kusala that is simple, but we should know about it. Ph quotes: However, we should not extend merit out of fear that there is someone who could avenge himself and cause misfortune. The development of metta towards those we meet in this life is more beneficial than the extension of merit to an avenger we have never seen and whom we do not know." N: This may not be clear. Some people are afraid of a deceased one who may be angry with us. It may be a kind of superstition. Nina. 34280 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 2:13pm Subject: Re: The Hindrances ! Bhikkhu Samahita Venerable Sir, I wonder if you could clarify for me whether your terms 'irrational attention' and 'rational attention' are often also translated as 'unwise' attention (from the Pali 'ayoniso manasikara') and 'wise' attention (from 'yoniso manasikara')? It certainly is irrational to be unwise - though, of course, there is no real choice in that moment. with metta and respect, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends: > There are these 5 mental Hindrances: > 1: Sense-Desire > 2: Ill-Will > 3: Lethargy-&-Laziness > 4: Restlessness-&-Regret > 5: Doubt-&-Uncertainty > These block vision of reality, create ignorance and > hinder all progress towards peace, freedom & bliss. > > What Causes these 5 mental hindrances ? > & > What Cures these 5 mental hindrances ? > > Irrational attention to the attractive aspect makes desire arise & grow. > Rational attention to the disgusting feature prevents & ceases desire. > > Irrational attention to the repulsive aspect makes ill-will arise & grow. > Rational attention to universal friendliness prevents & ceases ill-will. > > Unnoticed boredom & drowsiness make lethargy-&-laziness arise & grow. > Initiative, launching & endurance prevent & cease lethargy-&- laziness. > > Unnoticed mental agitation makes restlessness-&-regret arise & grow. > Mental calming & bodily calming prevent & cease restlessness-&- regret. > > Irrationally neglecting the causes makes doubt-&-uncertainty arise & grow. > Rational attention to the causes prevents & ceases doubt-&- uncertainty. > > These are the causes & the cures of the 5 mental hindrances... > > --oo0oo-- > What Buddha actually said about this in detail: > http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita/Canon/Sutta/AN/AN.I.3- 4.html 34281 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:47pm Subject: The one root of ill-will is delusion? ( was Re: The Hindrances ! Hello Bhikkhu Samahita, and all Bh. S> Irrational attention to the repulsive aspect makes ill-will arise & grow. > Rational attention to universal friendliness prevents & ceases ill- will. Ph: I was surprised recently to find this when reading Buddhaghosa's commentary on the Right View Sutta: "As to root: Killing living beings has two roots, by way of hate and delusion; taking what is not given, by way of hate and delusion or by way of greed and delusion; misconduct, by way of greed and delusion; false speech, by way of hate and delusion or by way of greed and delusion; likewise for malicious speech and gossip; harsh speech, by way of hate and delusion. *Covetousness has one root, by way of delusion; likewise ill will* Wrong view has two roots, by way of greed and delusion." (end quote) This is referring to ill-will as one of the 10 courses of unwholesome kamma rather than the hindrance of ill-will, but I suppose the root would be the same. I had thought that ill-will would have both delusion and aversion as roots, and this aversion is suggested in the Bhikkhu's "irrational attention to the repulsive." But according to Buddhaghosa above, ill- will has a root in delusion only. It does not have hate (aversion) as a root. It reminds me of the T shirt that was popular in the 80's : Racism is Ignorance. Is anyone else surprised by this? Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Bhikkhu Samahita wrote: > Friends: > There are these 5 mental Hindrances: > 1: Sense-Desire > 2: Ill-Will > 3: Lethargy-&-Laziness > 4: Restlessness-&-Regret > 5: Doubt-&-Uncertainty > These block vision of reality, create ignorance and > hinder all progress towards peace, freedom & bliss. > > What Causes these 5 mental hindrances ? > & > What Cures these 5 mental hindrances ? 34282 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 3:59pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Rob, Last things first :-) You're quite right, The Bill is a TV show. It is a very long-running BBC cops-on-the-beat series, that I hear snippets of, as I sit in the next room and ponder this rupa business. I'll accept what you say about Abhidhamma not being about creating a model of matter. But wouldn't degrees become important when quantitative change brings about qualitative change? For example, a gentle touch could turn from a pleasant sensation to an unpleasant one given more pressure, couldn't it? Or are pleasant and unpleasant bodily sensations also considered the same? ( I just realized that this is probably what the ittha / anittha stuff refers to. If so, sorry :-)) Thanks Herman > I ask: Does the Abhidhamma allow for degrees in matter? I would think > that the earth element is not only hardness, but also softness, governed > by the degree of its presence. > > What is ultraviolet as opposed to infrared if not a matter of degree? > There are degrees, but they are not important to the Abhidhamma. Let's go back to basics. The purpose of the analysis of rupa is to understand the senses, not to create a model of matter itself. If something is soft or hard, it is still impacts the body-sense. Gradiations of softness or hardness are not important if we are focusing on sense stimulation. Softness sense stimulation and hardness sense stimulation are equivalent in the eyes of the Abhidhamma (there are some subtlities of anittha / ittha / ati- ittha, but that is a digression). I am curious... What is this thing, "The Bill"? My guess is that it is a TV show that has not yet found its way to Malaysia. Metta, Rob M :-) 34283 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 4:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Herman, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > I'll accept what you say about Abhidhamma not being about creating a > model of matter. But wouldn't degrees become important when quantitative > change brings about qualitative change? For example, a gentle touch > could turn from a pleasant sensation to an unpleasant one given more > pressure, couldn't it? > > Or are pleasant and unpleasant bodily sensations also considered the > same? ( I just realized that this is probably what the ittha / anittha > stuff refers to. If so, sorry :-)) ===== You are correct, no need to be sorry about being correct :-) Pleasant bodily sensations and unpleasant bodily sensations are both bodily sensations. The Buddha never said that we should only give up unpleasant bodily sensations. One of the ten perfections (paramis) is khanti. This is often translated as patience, forbearance or tolerance. However, part of the parami involves cultivating khanti toward both unpleasant and pleasant objects. How does one cultivate patience toward pleasant objects? By not being drawn into them! Anittha, ittha and ati-ittha are inherent characteristics of rupa (remember that the relevance of rupa in the Abhidhamma is as a sense object). When there are attachment-rooted javana cittas toward an object that is inherently anittha (i.e. a masochist liking pain), then this is sannavipallasa (perversion of perception). When there is aversion-rooted javana cittas toward an object that is inherently ati- ittha, this is also sannavipallasa (interestingly, the registration cittas which would normally be accompanied with joy because of the ati-ittha object, are now accompanied by equanimity because aversion and joy cannot be neighbours; they must be separated by equanimity). Metta, Rob M :-) 34284 From: robmoult Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 5:04pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Rupa Questions Hi Nina, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > R: I note that the kalapas produced by citta include: > > - Pure octads > > - Body intimation nonad (pure octad + body intimation rupa) > > - Vocal intimation decad (pure octad + vocal intimation rupa + sound) > > - Pure octad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > > - Body intimation nonad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > > - Vocal intimation decad + buoyancy + plasticity + wieldiness > > > > Can I assume that the first three are only produced by those cittas > > without the cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness > N: No, these three cetasikas arise with each sobhana citta. Thus, if kusala > citta produces them they accompany citta. The cetasikas have no spevcial > relation with the rupas of that name. > R:and that > > the last three are only produced by those cittas including the > > cetasikas of buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness? > N: No, same reason. Thanks, I just read Ledi Sayadaw's Patthanuddesa Dipani and he says the same thing. He explains that when the elements of the body are not working harmoniously (i.e. one is sick), one tends to produce cittaja rupas without buoyancy, plasticity and wieldiness. Metta, Rob M :-) 34285 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 8 Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 8 Acharn Sujin and all the friends I met in the Foundation building were very earnest in listening, studying and explaining the Dhamma, and this earnestness permeated the development of paññå, mettå and all other good qualities in their daily lives. The sessions in the Foundation were characterized by a friendly, informal atmosphere. The podium established in the main hall was not used and we were all sitting close to each other, just like in a family circle. People were interested in what I was doing in the Netherlands. I told them about the Internet, and my Visuddhimagga and Pali study. Acharn Sujin was assisted by others who encouraged me all the time to continue asking personal questions on the development of satipatthåna. Acharn Sujin asked me whether I take kusala and akusala for self, and I answered that I do. She said; ³When we have no understanding of realities, it is always ŒI¹. ŒI would like to have more kusala, how can I be better¹. Nobody can prevent thinking in this way, but one should understand that such moments are not self. Knowing in which way understanding is developed is most important.² At the Foundation there are always people caring for others. On weekends when most of the sessions take place, kind people bring food for everybody. Acharn Sujin and her sister Khun Jid discussed at length the luncheon menu in the restaurant where they had invited us. This seems a trivial matter, but it demonstrates their loving care and kind intention to make things as agreeable and pleasant as possible for all of us. They show us how satipatthåna and all kinds of kusala can be developed in daily life in a natural way. Acharn Sujin never tires of performing kusala, and, in particular, the explanation of the Dhamma. She said that feeling tired shows clinging to ³self². During my last day in Bangkok she encouraged me, saying: ³When you perform more kusala your body will become stronger.² A shoot of the Bodhitree was planted in the grounds of the Foundation. These shoots collected in Bodhgaya usually do not grow, but this one thrives very well and is now a beautiful tree. The well kept surroundings of the building are very conducive to personal conversations on Dhamma and contemplation on the words of the Buddha. Acharn Sujin reminded us time and again to have patience, courage and perseverance in the development of right understanding of realities. Her words, ³Is there any understanding at this moment² still resound in my thoughts. She encouraged us, saying, ³Begin again, begin again². Sati can begin to be aware of whatever appears through one of the six doorways, even though the truth is not yet directly realized. To the extent understanding grows our confidence in the Triple Gem becomes stronger. We can have confidence in the Path we have to continue developing with courage and perseverance. Mindfulness of realities is the highest respect we can pay to the Buddha. I am most grateful to Acharn Sujin and all my friends for the reminders of satipatthåna and for their good example of practising the Dhamma in daily life. Bangkok, February 2004. (Conclusion, all will be on zolag) ***** Nina 34286 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Dear Rob M, op 29-06-2004 15:50 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > For example, my wife likes spicy food and I like bland food. This > liking or disliking of flavour does not arise during the tongue door > process. N: Even before knowing what something is, in a sense-door process, javanacittas with like or dislike may arise. This is by accumulations. I gave the example of a child liking a coloured balloon, even though it does not know what it is. Just in a hurry to go off, Nina. 34287 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Right thinking (was Re: Virtues of the Buddha?) Hello Philip, op 29-06-2004 15:17 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > How do you all see right thinking? I suppose as with so many > aspects of dhamma, there are different levels, and the right thinking > Nina writes about is at a deeper level? N: Different levels. Level of samatha, a meditation subject. And see above: of the eightfold Path, in satipatthana. Mahanama was an ariyan and could have access concentration with the Recollection of the Buddha. With such degree of understanding confidence is unshakable, very strong. Nina. 34288 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Herman, op 29-06-2004 13:11 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...: > I ask: Does the Abhidhamma allow for degrees in matter? I would think > that the earth element is not only hardness, but also softness, governed > by the degree of its presence. N: Right. Evenso heat and cold: just different degrees of the element of heat. Nina 34289 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Thai Chanting Hi Rob M, No idea, I haven't heard it. Nina op 29-06-2004 07:57 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > There is a > break after a fixed number of syllables, irrespective of if this is > the end of the word or the middle of the word. > > I find it most unnerving as it makes the Pali almost unintelligible. > Any idea why they chant this way? 34290 From: Philip Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:19pm Subject: Re: Perseverance in Dhamma, Ch 6, no 8 Hello Nina Thank you for this series, Nina. It has been straight forward and encouraging. I will be rereading it. N: > Acharn Sujin asked me whether I take kusala and akusala for self, and I > answered that I do. She said; ³When we have no understanding of realities, > it is always ŒI¹. ŒI would like to have more kusala, how can I be better¹. > Nobody can prevent thinking in this way, but one should understand that such > moments are not self. Knowing in which way understanding is developed is > most important.² Ph: When you answered "I do" did you mean always, or most of the time, or at times? Are you being very modest? I can see that it is best to be modest, but I would be encouraged if I read, for example, that you see kusala and akusala as not-self quite often! After all, I am reading your books. I expect RESULTS from my teachers, you know! just joking :) N: > At the Foundation there are always people caring for others. On weekends > when most of the sessions take place, kind people bring food for everybody. > Acharn Sujin and her sister Khun Jid discussed at length the luncheon menu > in the restaurant where they had invited us. This seems a trivial matter, > but it demonstrates their loving care and kind intention to make things as > agreeable and pleasant as possible for all of us. They show us how > satipatthåna and all kinds of kusala can be developed in daily life in a > natural way Ph: This is a very helpful reminder of down-to-earth kusala in daily life. I sometimes get irritated by the way Japanese friends and students always want to talk about food, and ask about one's likes and dislikes related to food, food, food - it seems obsessive at times. But thanks to the above I think I will be able to see through to the good intentions that lie behind all the talk about food that goes on in Japan. There is concern about the other's well-being. It is not just about aversion and attachment the way I had seen it. N: > Acharn Sujin never tires of performing kusala, and, in > particular, the explanation of the Dhamma. She said that feeling tired shows > clinging to ³self². During my last day in Bangkok she encouraged me, saying: > ³When you perform more kusala your body will become stronger.² > A shoot of the Bodhitree was planted in the grounds of the Foundation. These > shoots collected in Bodhgaya usually do not grow, but this one thrives very > well and is now a beautiful tree. Ph: This is very encouraging on a lazy feeling rainy season day. I will turn off the computer soon, do housework, go for a walk in the park and then come back and study Japanese. N: > Acharn Sujin reminded us time and again to have patience, courage and > perseverance in the development of right understanding of realities. Her > words, ³Is there any understanding at this moment² still resound in my > thoughts. She encouraged us, saying, ³Begin again, begin again². Ph: It is never too late to begin again. More encouragement. Are there any recordings of K Sujin talking together with DSG members or other people in English? I would like to have the opportunity to transcribe some conversations the way I have with Rob K's. Hearing Dhamma discussed might have even more encouraging power than reading it off the page. Might. I don't have enough experience to say. Thanks again for this series, Nina. And, in passing, thanks for your answer to my question about right thinking. Metta, Phil 34291 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:37pm Subject: SATIPATTHANA BASICS - BUDDHAS CENTRAL TEACHING excerpt from Maha Satipatthana Suttanta, Pali Text Society 11. And how, bhikkhus, does a brother as to the feelings, continue to consider the feelings? Herein, O bhikkhus, is a brother when affected by a feeling of pleasure, aware of it, reflecting: `I feel a pleasurable feeling.' So, too, is he aware when affected by a painful feeling, or by a neutral feeling, or by a pleasant or painful or neutral feeling concerning material things, or by a pleasant or painful or neutral feeling concerning spiritual things. So does he, as to feelings, continue to consider feeling, both internally and externally (note: possible interpretation is to observe outward display of feelings through gesture and action on other people), or internally and externally together. (I think the next part is important …) He keeps on considering how the feelings are something that comes to be, or again he keeps on considering how the feelings are something that passes away, or he keeps on considering their coming to be with their passing away. Or again, with the consciousness: `There is feeling,' mindfulness thereof becomes thereby established far enough for the purposes of knowledge and of self-collectedness. And he abides independent, grasping after nothing in the world whatever. Thus bhikkhus, does a brother with respect to the feelings, continue to consider feeling. --- Metta, Nori 34292 From: norakat147 Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:38pm Subject: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain One of the things I have realized in my practice of self observation is this: Pleasure and Pain is not the result of sensations in-and-of themselves. Pleasure and Pain is the result of a reaction due to ones mental disposition (or mental formation) and bodily disposition (or bodily formation). For example: Lets say somebody is out walking in the sunlight. The sensations in- and-of-themselves from the sun is warmth and other subtle sensations on the skin; also light from the sun on the eyes/retina. These sensations in-and-of-themselves are not pain-suffering or pleasure. It is only sensation; neutral, with no pain/suffering, no pleasure. One can, by ones own volition, not think or react and feel the sensations from the sun in-and-of-itself. But now if one were to think, `this sun, it is not good for my skin, I can develop skin cancer.' And as soon as aversion develops, now one can begin to feel in his body, in addition to the initial sensations from the sun itself (i.e. the warmth and tingling sensation on the skin) a very unpleasant sensation run all throughout his body; pain and suffering begins. Now this sensation was not caused by the sun itself. But now if one were to think, `this sun, it is good for my skin, I can develop vitamin D, and benefit from its other effects.' And as soon as a `liking' develops, now one can begin to feel in his body, in addition to the initial sensations from the sun itself, a very pleasant sensation run all throughout his body which scientists might describe as a release of dopamine in the brain. Once again, the Pleasure or Pain is the result of a reaction due to ones mental disposition (or mental formation) NOT - due to the sun, or the sensations caused by the sun in-and-of-itself. Even the sensation of being stabbed in the arm, while being a sharp and intense sensation, in-and-of-itself, is not pain/suffering. It is ones reaction in the form of aversion that is suffering. Depending on the level of aversion or `liking' one can develop towards the object, the sensations caused on the body by the object in-and-of-itself can be, and is in most cases, dwarfed by the overwhelming sensations created by the reaction due to aversion or `liking'. And so one can say in a sense: Ultimately, nothing in this world is the cause of our suffering, we are the cause of our own suffering. With Metta, nori 34293 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jun 29, 2004 10:50pm Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (19) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Conclusions and an Afterthought (1) Our study has led us to the following conclusions regarding the relationship between lay noble disciples and the jhaanas. 1. Several suttas describe the process by which a worldling enters "the fixed course of rightness" in a way that emphasizes either faith or wisdom as the chief means of attainment. None of the texts, however, that deal with the two candidates for stream-entry - the faith-follower and the Dhamma-follower - show them as being proficient in the jhaanas. Though some suttas include the jhaanas in the analysis of the faculty of concentration, this may be done simply out of compliance with the formulaic style of definition employed by the Nikaayas and need not be seen as having categorical implications. The Commentaries treat these definitions as referring to the supramundane jhaana arisen within the supramundane path. Moreover, the analysis of the concentration faculty mentions another type of concentration, which is gained "by making release the object," and this may be interpreted broadly enough as including degrees of concentration short of the jhaanas. 2. All noble disciples acquire the right concentration of the Noble Eightfold Path, which is defined as the four jhaanas. This need not be understood to mean that stream-enterers and once-returners already possess jhaana before they reach stream-entry. The formula for right concentration may imply only that they must eventually attain the jhaanas in the course of developing the path to its culmination in arahantship. If we go along with the Commentaries in recognizing the Abhidhammic distinction between the preparatory path and the supramundane path, then we can maintain that the jhaanas included in right concentration as a path factor pertain to the supramundane path and are thus of supramundane stature. This still leaves open the question whether aspirants for stream-entry must develop the mundane jhaanas in the preliminary phase of their practice. 3. A number of texts on stream-enterers and once-returners imply that they do not possess the jhaanas as meditative attainments which they can enter at will. Though it is obvious that disciples at the lower two levels may have jhaanic attainments, the latter are not declared to be an integral part of their spiritual equipment. ****** 34294 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 0:45am Subject: A rough guide to some jumbled posts intended (1) Dear Nina & All (thinking of Phil, Icaro and RobM), I hope you have a good trip too and this reaches you before you go. As always, I'd like to express my great appreciation and thanks for all your hard work and sharing of the Dhamma. Your energy, enthusiasm and confidence in the Tipitaka and commentaries are most inspiring and far more precious than keeping our youthful appearances;-). I just have one more BB installment to post and several short cryptic sets of comments to different friends here in lieu of intended letters. I agreed with your comment on one installment - always comes back to moments of satipatthana with the threee trainings developing firmer and firmer 'firmeness of citta and understanding'. I hope there's more discussion. I was interested in his comments on 'panca sekhabalaani' and samaadhibala in his letter to Tzungkuen and comments on AN4:169, p160 in PTS vol 11. I'll be glad to read anything further you or anyone adds on any of the posts. Satipatthana - Perseverence 6:6. "The hindrances are only akusala cetasikas arising because of conditions, they have no owner. In this sense they are beyond control'. Such a relief, like a cool balm, to have a just a little understanding and detachment in the midst of mental chaos;-). We fly out late this evening for Switzerland. The washing machine has been back off to 'hospital' while we're away, the air-conditioner is semi-working after two days of workmen slaving over it in our heat-wave. Jon's injured back is 'workable' after a week of sleeping on the living room floor and lots of attention from Dr Ma and our bags (no chance of hand luggage with J's back prob) were checked in at 7am at the City check-in nearby all the way through to the basic flat where we'll be staying in Zermatt!! The Swiss are the best when it comes to bag travel arrangements but in the mountain areas anyway, unlike the Thai beaches or Indian holy places, there are no internet cafes or connections -- just a coin operated computer in a noisy, smokey, boozy bar where Jon will be checking in daily and if possible, printing posts for me to read on the balcony with my mother and a cup of tea, overlooking the Matterhorn after a half day's hike. Phil, on previous holidays, I've shown my mother pictures of members in the album and given her a few details. So now I can just pick out short paragraphs of non-Pali everyday posts to show or read out to her. She likes the little 'human' touches. Phil - you'd love the tapes and it would be great if you'd transcribe and add comments. We had made arrangements in Bkk for people to get copies and left funds for this, but the system seems to have broken down - the friends that were helping are no longer around. If no one else has any suggestions, I'll see if I can do anything on return. Nina on the - I liked the comment from the Expositor that they 'should be classed as the one moment in the sense of occasion, they form the occasion for the production of merit.' Also the 'concurrence of circumstances' and 'simultaneous occurrence of many dhammas'. I've discussed the 'four wheels' many times over the years with K. Sujin and it reminds me of discussions on sappaya sampajanna and natural decisive support conditions. When we refer to climate, teacher, country and so on, shorthand for many dhammas. As K.Sujin always repeats, it always comes back to pa~n~naa. If there are conditions for panna to arise now, whether watching cartoons in Brazil or mopping up water in Hong Kong, then at that moment it's the 'suitable place' she'd stress. Nina, I liked your comments on 'transfer of merit' - different results, conventional names for planes to describe objects experienced, but really only the same paramattha dhammas like now, as you say. Planes of cittas (bhumi) and planes of existence (bhumi), closely connected. K.Sujin talked about arupabrahma plances - like thinking now, defined by cittas and objects. When there is understanding of nama, no doubt about it. When we're very angry, it's a different 'plane' from when we're very happy. I consider hell planes and heavenly planes in terms of different cittas like this. On breath, you asked some qus when we went to Bkk and I didn't get round to reporting back. Just briefly, some of KS's comments - not exact quotes: Breath - it doesn't concern with all those things (eg blowing etc) at all.It's the rupa conditioned by citta. there are many other groups, conditioned by other causes. Don't try to pinpoint and call it breath. It's not just any vayu dhatu (air element) but the very special one that can only be known when it appears. Those in the Buddha's time had lots of panna and parami - whatever the Buddha said could be understood instantly. There was no doubt about breath etc. It's there for some with the right accumulations to be aware of it, like the Buddha, Ananda and some other key disciples. When we read the Vism, it's our own thinking and understanding of what we are used to taking for breath. Actually, it's only rupa conditioned by citta. We cannot pinpoint which group of rupas is conditioned by citta.It's unknown, but we take it for something as a meditation subject. There is a difference betweem the wisdom of people in the Buddha's time and today. Rupas rise and fall away immediately. For example, we move a hand and it's conditioned by citta in general, but there are other groups as well. We cannot pinpoint. "Don't select, but understand everything as a conditioned dhamma to understand its anattaness better and better". Nama as nama and rupa as rupa. Enjoy your break too, Nina and look forward to checking in again on return (17th July). Kom's also helping us to keep an eye on things while we're travelling and I'd like to express my great appreciation for all his behind the scenes support over the years. Unfortunately, with two jobs and his other Dhamma activities, he has no time to participate for the time being. Metta, Sarah ====== 34295 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:04am Subject: A rough guide to some jumbled posts intended (2) Dear Phil & Herman, Of course, whether or not we 'cultivate a fair amount of solitude' or not will be by conditions anyway. Herman, this was a great line preserved from any earlier post: "You can have absolute confidence that any thought of shoulding, musting, having to etc is generated by the ego." Of course, Phil, if there was any idea that one 'should' be able to hang out with those debauched colleagues and have any equanimity, that would be more ego generation too;-) And btw, keep earing the $ whatever others might suggest, whilst living a lay life;-). That's a 'shoulding' exception. Herman, your comments on this theme and reference to Kali and the Kakacupama sutta were very good too. I'd like to quote and elaborate, but the timer is on. Also while the praise is flowing (don't worry, it won't last), thx for the link to all the detail in the link to 'The Signs of a Great Man' and the Lakkhana Sutta. I found the lists very clearly set out and interesting with the Pali terms too. I can only answer 'by conditions' to all the qus you raised to Phil in post 34273..... Phil, Mahanama sutta - I'm glad you (and friend) reminded us - great reflections anytime, again by conditions, not by 'shoulding'. Oh and Herman, good to see you having to resort to quoting from suttas;-) Can we say that insight leads to the perception that form is inconstant rather than the other way round? Metta, Sarah ====== 34296 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:24am Subject: A rough guide to some jumbled posts intended (3) Dear RobM & Bhinnatta, Rob, I saw you mentioned you were teaching on di.t.thi and maana and I'd meant to say that I thought you wrote a very clear and helpful post on sakkaya ditthi (34076) recently. Plenty on mana in U.P. under 'conceit' and I noticed you're helping us contribute to simple daily life examples - 'I'm lucky to live in Malaysia'. Yes! There doesn't have to be any mana (conceit) involved, but it slips in so easily, doesn't it? If Lee comes to your talks, pls encourage him to report back too and maybe a pic of you both? I like the idea of the reciting mnemonics 'som sa di sam asan'...great! Jon said he understood just what you were saying about the Thai chanting and breaks, but no further comment. I didn't agree with all the definitions on sati you used (33998) and meant to fish out the Pali and English translations that Suan and I were looking at from the Vibhanga with lots of synonyms. Perhaps Suan could recycle it [I'm lost these days without escribe for searches]. Bhinnatta, same applies to dhamma vicaya (investigation of dhamma). This was another synonym for panna, vipassana, sampajanna and so on from the Vibhanga. (Suan, can you help again?) Remember, panna is always 'the forerunner' and accompanies each moment of sati in satipatthana from the very beginning. There are different levels or degrees of panna, but no satipatthana without it. Lots in the satipatthana sutta commentary of sati-sampajanna. Sorry, again too rushed for quotes. Also (re your 'transfer of Merit' post and freewill and 'transcenent skillfull intentions' quoting Ven Thanissaro, remember it is the eightfold path factors that 'transcend', again with panna as 'forerunner'. In any case, I'm enjoying all your posts and interesting angles on topics. Metta, Sarah ====== 34297 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:47am Subject: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (20) The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas Ven. Bhikkhu Bodhi Conclusions and an Afterthought (2) 4. Several non-returners in the Nikaayas claim to possess all four jhaanas, and according to the Mahaamaalu,nkya Sutta, attainment of at least the first jhaana is part of the practice leading to the eradication of the five lower fetters. It thus seems likely that stream-enterers and once-returners desirous of advancing to non-returnership in that very same life must attain at least the first jhaana as a basis for developing insight. Those content with their status, prepared to let the "law of the Dhamma" take its course, generally will not strive to attain the jhaanas. Instead, they settle for the assurance that they are bound to reach the final goal within a maximum of seven more lives passed in the human and celestial worlds. 5. As non-returners have eliminated sensual lust and ill will, the main obstacles to jhaanic attainment, they should face no major problems in entering the jhaanas. The non-returner is similar to the ordinary jhaana-attainer in being bound for rebirth in the form realm. Unlike the latter, however, the non-returner is utterly free from sensual desire and ill will and thus can never fall back to the sensuous realm. 6. Although in the Nikaayas the tie between the two attainments - the jhaanas and non-returnership - is clear enough, it remains an open question whether the connection is absolutely binding. Several suttas speak of the achievements of non-returners without mentioning the jhaanas, and at least one sutta contrasts the non-returner who gains all four jhaanas with one who practises more austere types of meditation that do not typically lead to the jhaanas. The Commentaries speak even of a sukkhavipassaka arahant, an arahant who has gained the goal entirely through "dry insight," without any attainment of form-sphere jhaana at all. Although such a type is not explicitly recognized in the Nikaayas, the question may be raised whether the Commentaries, in asserting the possibility of arahantship without attainment of jhaana in the mundane portion of the path, have deviated from the Canon or brought to light a viable possibility implict in the older texts. The famous Satipa.t.thaana Sutta declares, in its conclusion, that all those who earnestly dedicate themselves to uninterrupted practice of the four establishments of mindfulness are bound to reap one of two fruits: either arahantship in this very life or, if any residue of clinging remains, the stage of non-returning. While several exercises within the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta are certainly capable of inducing the jhaanas, the system as a whole seems oriented towards direct insight rather than towards the jhaanas.[40] Thus this opens the question whether the Satipa.t.thaana Sutta might not be propounding a way of practice that leads all the way to non-returning, even to arahantship, without requiring attainment of the jhaanas. This, however, is another question, one that lies beyond the scope of this paper. ***** Notes: 40. This is a widespread view among contemporary interpreters, though the sutta itself does not describe its method explicitly in such terms. ============================================================== 34298 From: sarah abbott Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:57am Subject: A rough guide to some jumbled posts intended (4) Dear Tzungkuen, (Ken H, Andrew & All) That was it - the last of the B.Bodhi series with no major mishaps on my part.... Tzungkuen, please also excuse this last and rushed post from me. I hope others like KenH* may pick up the thread - the topics you raise (post 34231) are very useful to discuss further. Again I think we need to stress that panna is the forerunner. As it develops, the accompanying concentration is always wholesome. Without panna, there won't be any knowing. Dhammas have to be understood as anatta, so when there is the idea of 'practice samatha meditation', isn't there any idea of someone doing something? Is there any undestanding? By conditions, when we read the Mahanama sutta just posted, there may be wise reflection on the Triple Gem, on morality or generosity or other topics which condition calm at that moment. The associated concentration with these kusala cittas is kusala too. However, if we set out to concentrate on the Buddha's qualities in order to develop samatha or access concentration, there won't be any kusala cittas at those moments of intention motivated by desire for particular results. By understanding dhammas, any dhammas, which arise without any selection or idea of self, all kinds of kusala will be developed naturally. We may think that setting out 'to practice samatha meditation' or follow concentration on certain objects will help progress, but I think it's an impediment, a 'papanca', whenever there is any self-view or idea of any selection or control at all. It seems 'we' can change reality or induce metta to arise, but this is the illusion of self-view. I think Nina has added a few comments already as well. There is still plenty of 'use of moral precept (sila), charity (dana) and mental development (bhavana)', but again they are not in the self's control at all. Pls look at posts under 'anatta' and 'anatta and no control' in U.P. too for references and more detail. You wrote: "To strive for practicing meditation (samatha or vipassana) is to understand form experience the doctrine of anatta. Doesn't it?" This is a very good question....it always comes back to the cittas. Only panna can know at that moment of striving, I think. Sorry to have to break off. I'd have liked to incorporate some of the sutta passages from BB's series and discuss these further, but another time. Perhaps others will discuss these points further with you. I greatly appreciate your interest in the Abhidhamma and commentaries as well as the Suttas of course. Wishing everyone well with all that's wholesome and look forward to reading your posts and posting again in just over two weeks' time or so. Metta, Sarah p.s Ken H - if you speak to Andrew, pls tell him that his recent posts have been gems - esp. his discussion with Herman. Missing Mike's gems on and off-list if you hear from him too. ====================================== 34299 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:01am Subject: Re: A rough guide to some jumbled posts intended (3) Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > I didn't agree with all the definitions on sati you used (33998) and meant > to fish out the Pali and English translations that Suan and I were looking > at from the Vibhanga with lots of synonyms. Perhaps Suan could recycle it > [I'm lost these days without escribe for searches]. ===== The definitions of sati were extracted from "Mindfulness in Plain English" by Ven Henepola Gunaratana http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/mfneng/mind0.htm Metta, Rob M :-) 34300 From: sarahprocterabbott Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:07am Subject: Re: Nibbida Revulsion or Disinterest Hi Jeff, (Jon & Howard) Oh, one last quick post to Jeff - I've found your subject heading as I know you might not see the post otherwise. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, jhanananda@y... wrote: > Nibbida Revulsion or Disinterest > > I believe the translation of the Pali term 'Nibbidaa' as ''Revulsion' is a > classic example of Theravadan dogma affecting the translation of the Pali canon. ..... I understand your comments and personally I agree that 'disinterest' would seem more appropriate because of the strong connotations with 'revulsion'. Somewhere, B.Bodhi discusses this (no time to look) but Jon and Howard recently discussed this further with helpful comments. See: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34 032 Maybe Chris or others can add any further comments by B.Bodhi on this if he's given them. Howard, hope you had a good cruise and look f/w to hearing about your talks with your Queen's Dhamma group - I was glad to hear this is working out. Metta, Sarah ==== 34301 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:52am Subject: Not Yours ! Friends: Cut Clinging to what cannot be Owned: The Buddha said: Bhikkhus, leave what is not yours, since that will lead to your welfare & happiness for a long time. What is not yours ? Material & bodily form are not yours, leave it and let it go! Feeling, perception, construction & even consciousness are not yours, leave it and let it go!. When you have thus left these, released clinging to these, that indeed will lead to your welfare & happiness for a long time... The Middle Length Sayings: MN I 140 The "Dear" Sorrows: Whatever countless sorrows, frustrations & pains there are in this world, they all originate dependent upon some attraction held as dear! With nothing held as dear, no sorrow can ever come into being... Udana 92 Break the Source: How can one be attracted to sensual pleasures after discovering them to be the very Source wherefrom pain itself springs ? Whoever knows craving, wanting, needing & possession to be an addictive bondage, should train to break free of it... Obsession: http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita/Canon/Sutta/AN/AN.I.1-2.html All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 34302 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 0:58am Subject: Irrational attention ... Dear Christine: Irrational unwise attention 'ayoniso manasikara': (lit. not directing to the womb/origin of case.) Means not paying attention to the Cause of or Reason behind a given phenomena by asking: When what cause is present, do this effect arise ? When what cause is absent, do this effect not arise or cease ? Rational attention (wise as to reason) always notices: Momentarily & continuously: Ahh this mental construction was caused by that ignorance. Ahh this consciousness was caused by that construction. Ahh this mind-&-matter was caused by that consciousness. Ahh these senses were caused by that mind-&-matter. Ahh this contact was caused by these senses. Ahh this feeling was caused by that contact. Ahh this craving was caused by that feeling. Ahh this clinging was caused by that craving. Ahh this becoming was caused by that clinging. Ahh this birth was caused by that becoming. Ahh this death was caused by that birth. Removing this cause makes that pain vanish. Bhikkhu Samahita 34303 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:33am Subject: The 6 roots= mulas Hi Phil: There are 6 such roots = mulas: 3 karmically advantageous roots: Greed, hate & confusion (lobha, dosa, moha), and 3 disadvantageous roots: Greedlessness, hatelessness & certainty (alobha, adosa, amoha). Greed (lobha or rága) comprises all degrees of 'attractedness' towards an object from the faintest trace of a longing thought up to grossest egoism, whilst hatred (dosa) comprises all degrees of 'repulsion' from the faintest trace of irritation up to the highest rage of hate and anger. Greed, lust, desire, attraction & preference (same diluted quality) & their opposite derivatives: Hate, anger, aversion, opposition & stubbornness ALWAYS come & go together as a mirrored pair !!!!; Since if one do not get what one wants one hates.. If one instead gets what one not wants one hates.. Lust for object1 is the same as = Aversion towards Not possessing object1! Lust for freedom from object2 is the same as = Aversion towards association with object2! Loving something means hating the opposite! Hating something means loving the opposite! Both are ultimately caused by ignorance of the 4 Noble Truths. This Ignorance are thus the deepest root of all ill... Thus, greedlessness (alobha) is a name for generosity, hatelessness (adosa) is a name for friendliness (mettá), unconfused certainty (amoha) is a name for understanding (paññá). The perception of disgust is to be developed to overcome greed; universal friendliness in order to overcome hate; understanding in order to overcome confusion (A. VI, 107). see MULA at http://www.budsas.org/ebud/bud-dict/dic3_m.htm Bhikkhu Samahita : - ] 34304 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 3:29am Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Rob M, ------------------- > Ken H, are you trying to trap me again!?! One doesn't need vipassana (formal meditation, heaven forbid!) to have sati (mindfulness) of the present moment :-) You sly devil :-) What do you mean by "ordinary experience"? From anybody else, I would take it at face value, but in your case, I smell a trap :-) :-) :-) > ------------------ :-) I have been unjustly accused! If I remember correctly, Tzung-Kuen asked if all paramattha dhammas could be known and you replied that paramattha dhammas could not be known in isolation. I am still trying to figure out what you meant by that. I wondered if you were saying it was only sati (as distinct from the more commonly occurring cetasikas) that could not experience dhammas in isolation. My point was, we all experience dhammas (one at a time) every second of the day but sati and panna are almost never present and so we are not aware of the dhammas we have been experiencing. So, this time, I was not talking about formal practice. But since you have brought it up, I might say that your avoidance of the subject has not gone unnoticed :-) Avoid it or not, it will not go away: it is involved in every facet of Dhamma discussion. Every attempt at understanding Dhamma comes down to anatta and to the question, `Is there someone who is trying to create understanding or are there only namas and rupas?' Back to the beginning of your post: --------------- RM: > There may be lobha-mula javana cittas in the tongue door citta process but they are not attached to the specific object (i.e. liking sweet); rather they are attached to the sense itself (taking pleasure in sensing). ---------------- This does not fit with my understanding, which is that citta and its cetasikas together experience one and the same object. Are you saying, in the above example, that they don't experience an object at all? ----------------------------- RM: > Ledi Sayadaw explains that it is in these consequent processes that distinct recognition of the object occurs; such recognition does not occur in a bare five-door process itself. > ----------------- We have several terms to keep track of; `knowledge' `awareness' 'sense' `experience' and now, `distinct recognition.' It seems to me that your use of `distinct recognition' describes the conceptualising (pannatti) of what has been sensed. ------------------ RM: > An eye door process, for example, is followed first by a conformational mind-door process (tadanu-vattika manodvaravithi), which reproduces in the mind door the object just perceived in the sense-door process. ------------------ Is it always the sense-door object that is reproduced? Can't it be one of the other dhammas from the sense-door process (e.g., sukha- vedana in the example I gave yesterday)? -------------------------------- RM: > For example, my wife likes spicy food and I like bland food. This liking or disliking of flavour does not arise during the tongue door process. As it says in the Honeyball Sutta (Mn 18): Feeling -> Naming -> Thinking About -> Mental Profliferation > -------------------------------- I don't know about Ledi Sayadaw, but other people say there can be extremely strong lobha or dosa (etc.) in the sense-door processes. The flow of citta processes is so fast and so intermingled (all six types occurring one at a time, many times per second) it is impossible to say whether any particular cetasika is going to be strong or weak. Couldn't it happen, for example, that strong liking (lobha) for the concept of bland food conditions strong lobha for a gustatory rupa one millionth of a second later (or vice versa)? Thanks for trying to explain all this, Rob, I hope you won't give up on me. If sati and panna are ever going to arise, I must first ascertain what it is they will be experiencing. Ken H 34305 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:29am Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > :-) I have been unjustly accused! My apologies :-) > > If I remember correctly, Tzung-Kuen asked if all paramattha dhammas > could be known and you replied that paramattha dhammas could not be > known in isolation. I am still trying to figure out what you meant > by that. I wondered if you were saying it was only sati (as > distinct from the more commonly occurring cetasikas) that could not > experience dhammas in isolation. > > My point was, we all experience dhammas (one at a time) every second > of the day but sati and panna are almost never present and so we are > not aware of the dhammas we have been experiencing. ===== I think that I see your point now and perhaps I generalized too much. Nama arises in groups (citta + cetasikas) and would be an object through the mind-door. I still think that the paramattha dhamma called citta and the individual cetasikas cannot be experienced in isolation of each other. Rupa also arises in groups (kalapas) but when a kalapa presents itself at a sense door, only the appropriate sense rupa (visible object, sound, odour, flavour, temperature, pressure, hardness) is experienced in isolation of the other rupas that happen to accompany it. Of course, one can experience the paramattha dhamma of Nibbana in isolation. > --------------- > RM: > There may be lobha-mula javana cittas in the tongue door citta > process but they are not attached to the specific object (i.e. > liking sweet); rather they are attached to the sense itself (taking > pleasure in sensing). > ---------------- > > This does not fit with my understanding, which is that citta and its > cetasikas together experience one and the same object. Are you > saying, in the above example, that they don't experience an object > at all? ===== Sorry that I was not clear. You are correct. The citta and the accompanying cetasikas all experience exactly the same object. What I mean is that the lobha-mula cittas that may arise in a sense door process are attached to sensual data and only to sensual data. At that point in the pattern of citta processes, the object has not been grasped as a whole (i.e. it is not yet a shape, it is only visual object), it has not been named (i.e. it is not yet a rose) and previous experiences with that name have not come into play (i.e. no association with past roses yet). It is my contention (and I think that Ledi Sayadaw would agree with me) that many tend to read too much into the sense-door citta process. The comment that there are "hundreds of thousands" of mind door process after the sense-door process that build on the sense data input support my opinion that the sense door citta process may be a trigger, but the serious kamma takes place at the mind-door. ===== > > ----------------------------- > > RM: > Ledi Sayadaw explains that it is in these > consequent processes that distinct recognition of the object occurs; > such recognition does not occur in a bare five-door process itself. > > ----------------- > > We have several terms to keep track > of; `knowledge' `awareness' 'sense' `experience' and now, `distinct > recognition.' It seems to me that your use of `distinct > recognition' describes the conceptualising (pannatti) of what has > been sensed. ===== Yes. "distinct recognition" is conceptualizing; the grasping of the whole object, the recognition of colour, grasping the shape, recognizing the shape, grasping the name, recognizing the name and then grasping the associated feelings with the name. All of this is part of "distinct recognition". ===== > > ------------------ > > RM: > An eye door process, for example, is followed first by a > conformational mind-door process (tadanu-vattika manodvaravithi), > which reproduces in the mind door the object just perceived in the > sense-door process. > > ------------------ > > Is it always the sense-door object that is reproduced? Can't it be > one of the other dhammas from the sense-door process (e.g., sukha- > vedana in the example I gave yesterday)? ===== The CMA is clear that this sequence only applies to the five sense doors. Sukha-vedana is not an object of one of the five senses; it is the object of the mind-door. ===== > > -------------------------------- > concept as object > > RM: > For example, my wife likes spicy food and I like bland food. > This liking or disliking of flavour does not arise during the tongue > door process. As it says in the Honeyball Sutta (Mn 18): > > Feeling -> Naming -> Thinking About -> Mental Profliferation > > > -------------------------------- > > I don't know about Ledi Sayadaw, but other people say there can be > extremely strong lobha or dosa (etc.) in the sense-door processes. ===== I do not agree. I believe that strong lobha / dosa only arises at the mind door. ===== > > The flow of citta processes is so fast and so intermingled (all six > types occurring one at a time, many times per second) it is > impossible to say whether any particular cetasika is going to be > strong or weak. Couldn't it happen, for example, that strong liking > (lobha) for the concept of bland food conditions strong lobha for a > gustatory rupa one millionth of a second later (or vice versa)? ===== One could have strong liking for bland food, however the point at which the gustatory rupa is identified as "bland", is long after the tongue door process has ended. In fact, there have probably been a few hundred thousand mind-door processes since the tongue door process ended. The few hundred thousand mind-door processes can easily fit into the millionth of a second window you mentioned. Metta, Rob M :-) 34306 From: Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 1:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi, Nina (and Rob) - In a message dated 6/30/04 12:28:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Rob M, > op 29-06-2004 15:50 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > > >For example, my wife likes spicy food and I like bland food. This > >liking or disliking of flavour does not arise during the tongue door > >process. > N: Even before knowing what something is, in a sense-door process, > javanacittas with like or dislike may arise. This is by accumulations. I > gave the example of a child liking a coloured balloon, even though it does > not know what it is. > Just in a hurry to go off, > Nina. > ================================ Nina, I certainly agree with this, but with the proviso that the "knowing" that is unnecessary for the liking or disliking is a (proliferated) conceptual knowing, and not mere sa~n~na. In the Honeyball Sutta, there is the following: ___________________________ Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives. What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye. ----------------------------------------------- Certainly in the standard scheme of dependent origination there is given the dependency phassa --> vedana --> tanha. But the Honeyball Sutta focuses more finely, I believe, on the vedana --> tanha conditioning link. The detail given there can be represented, I think, as follows: contact --> feeling --> recognition (sa~n~na) --> mulling over --> conceptual complication (papa~nca) --> craving/aversion (tanha) and clinging (upadana) with regard to things remembered, "current" things, and envisioned future things. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34307 From: Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:00am Subject: Correction and Reformulation Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma ... Hi again, Nina and Rob - In a message dated 6/30/04 8:21:09 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Upasaka incorrectly wrote: > Nina, I certainly agree with this, but with the proviso that the "knowing" > that is unnecessary for the liking or disliking is a (proliferated) > conceptual knowing, and not mere sa~n~na. In the Honeyball Sutta, there is the > following: > ============================= What I *should* have said is "Nina, I certainly agree with this, but only in a restricted sense. The "knowing" that is necessary for the liking or disliking is a (proliferated) conceptual knowing, and not mere sa~n~na. (Contact directly yields 'liking or disliking' only in the sense of experiencing as pleasant or unpleasant, i.e. vedana, but not in the sense of reactive desire or aversion.) In the Honeyball Sutta, there is the following:" I apologize for my initial confused statement. My original post, corrected and slightly extended, should read as follows: Hi, Nina (and Rob) - In a message dated 6/30/04 12:28:11 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Dear Rob M, > op 29-06-2004 15:50 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > > >For example, my wife likes spicy food and I like bland food. This > >liking or disliking of flavour does not arise during the tongue door > >process. > N: Even before knowing what something is, in a sense-door process, > javanacittas with like or dislike may arise. This is by accumulations. I > gave the example of a child liking a coloured balloon, even though it does > not know what it is. > Just in a hurry to go off, > Nina. > ================================ Nina, I certainly agree with this, but only in a restricted sense. The "knowing" that is necessary for the liking or disliking is a (proliferated) conceptual knowing, and not mere sa~n~na. (Contact directly yields "liking or disliking" only in the sense of experiencing as pleasant or unpleasant, i.e., vedana, but not in the sense of reactive desire or aversion.) In the Honeyball Sutta, there is the following: ___________________________ Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives. What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye. ----------------------------------------------- Certainly in the standard scheme of dependent origination there is given the dependency phassa --> vedana --> tanha. But the Honeyball Sutta focuses more finely, I believe, on the vedana --> tanha conditioning link. I think it is important to note that it is not sa~n~na that conditions vedana, but vedana that conditions sa~n~na, and that the sa~n~na itself needs to first expand and proliferate in order for tanha to arise. The detail given there can be represented, I think, as follows: contact --> feeling --> recognition (sa~n~na) --> mulling over --> conceptual complication (papa~nca) --> craving/aversion (tanha) and clinging (upadana) with regard to things remembered, "current" things, and envisioned future things. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34308 From: Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 2:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Nibbida Revulsion or Disinterest Thanks, Sarah. :-) With metta, Howard In a message dated 6/30/04 5:25:58 AM Eastern Daylight Time, sarahprocterabbott@y... writes: > Howard, hope you had a good cruise and look f/w to hearing > about your talks with your Queen's Dhamma group - I was glad > to hear this is working out. > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34309 From: Gabriel Nunes Laera Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 9:05am Subject: Atenção racional - a base da postura contínua e momentãnea diante da existência e o sofrimento. Caros amigos, Segue a tradução de um esquema lógico que engloba a origem interdependente e a forma que através da atenção racional passa-se a constatá-la, e a partir desta, a intenção e as motivações enquadram-se nas intruções do Nobre Iluminado. Metta, Gabriel Laera *** Atenção racional (sábia acerca das causas e razões) sempre nota: Momentãnea e continuamente: Ahh! Esta construção mental foi causada por esta ignorância. Ahh! Esta consciência foi causada por esta construção. Ahh! Este corpo-&-matéria foi causado por esta consciência. Ahh! Estes sentidos foram causados por este corpo-&-matéria. Ahh! Este contato foi causado por este sentidos. Ahh! Este sentimento foi causado por este contacto. Ahh! Este apego foi causado por este sentimento. Ahh! Esta adesão foi causado por este sentimento. Ahh! Este vir-a-ser (se tornar) foi causado por esta adesão. Ahh! Este nascimento foi causado por este vir-a-ser (se tornar). Ahh! Esta morte foi causada por este nascimento. Removendo a causa da dor esta desaparece. *** P.S.: O original foi escrito por Bikkhu Samahita (bhikkhu_samahita@y...) na lista DSG (dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) em 30/06/2004, 34310 From: Gabriel Nunes Laera Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Atenção racional - a base da postura contínua e momentãnea diante da existência e o sofrimento. Dearest friends of DSG, I made a mistake sending this message top the group! Anyway, this is just a translation of Bikkhu Samahita's last e-mail... Metta, Gabriel Laera ----- Original Message ----- From: "Gabriel Nunes Laera" To: Sent: Wednesday, June 30, 2004 1:05 PM Subject: [dsg] Atenção racional - a base da postura contínua e momentãnea diante da existência e o sofrimento. > Caros amigos, > > Segue a tradução de um esquema lógico que engloba a origem interdependente e > a forma que através da atenção racional passa-se a constatá-la, e a partir > desta, a intenção e as motivações enquadram-se nas intruções do Nobre > Iluminado. > > Metta, > > Gabriel Laera > > *** > > Atenção racional (sábia acerca das causas e razões) sempre nota: > > Momentãnea e continuamente: > > Ahh! Esta construção mental foi causada por esta ignorância. > > Ahh! Esta consciência foi causada por esta construção. > > Ahh! Este corpo-&-matéria foi causado por esta consciência. > > Ahh! Estes sentidos foram causados por este corpo-&-matéria. > > Ahh! Este contato foi causado por este sentidos. > > Ahh! Este sentimento foi causado por este contacto. > > Ahh! Este apego foi causado por este sentimento. > > Ahh! Esta adesão foi causado por este sentimento. > > Ahh! Este vir-a-ser (se tornar) foi causado por esta adesão. > > Ahh! Este nascimento foi causado por este vir-a-ser (se tornar). > > Ahh! Esta morte foi causada por este nascimento. > > Removendo a causa da dor esta desaparece. > > *** > > P.S.: O original foi escrito por Bikkhu Samahita > (bhikkhu_samahita@y...) na lista DSG (dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com) > em 30/06/2004, > > > > > > > > > > 34311 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:32am Subject: Some caution and non-advice Hi Rob M, Ken H, and all you other non-selves posting these conceptual non-truths. (being satirical not mean) ------------------- Rob:> Ken H, are you trying to trap me again!?! One doesn't need > vipassana (formal meditation, heaven forbid!) to have sati > (mindfulness) of the present moment :-) You sly devil :-) What do > you mean by "ordinary experience"? From anybody else, I would take > it at face value, but in your case, I smell a trap :-) :-) :-) B: What is more skillfull, being able to classify and label all mental states, cittas, cetasikas and rupas, or having one moment of real experience free from greed, aversion, and ignorance? And don't give me the notion that having experience implies a self because, from what I have been reading, the selves that have all these different ideas and positions on translation, meaning, definition, order, and theme are very much alive and well in this group. Claiming anatta and realizing anatta are very different. One requires some reading and conjecture, the other does indeed require the "formal meditation" that we loath so much. I am not disagreeing with Rob's claim about sati. Truly mindfulness is not dependent on vipassana, but I have yet to meet or hear of someone having any real development of sati without regularly practicing some sort of satipatthana. Furthermore, I may be misinterpreting the point, but I do not understand the Ven. Bhikku Bodhi's attempt to show that enlightenment is possible without jnanas. Is samattha really that painful? Also, satipatthana meditation does not lead to "dry insight" as Ven. Bodhi claims. Any degree of developed sati by its very nature has concentration as its co-requisite. In other words, remembering to be mindful of an object over and over and over again, to the point where one has continuous sati, necessitates an equivalent degree of concentration. Again, I'm open to clarification. Forgive my oversimplification. I read these posts with great enthusiasm every day, but sometimes I feel as if they are going in circles. I'm reminded of the Sabba Sutta (SN XXXV.23): "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." I'm reminded of this sutta because when we discuss the details of Abidhamma or cittas or cetasikas, we are still working within the confines of this "all." We are so used to the word "all" meaning everything we can think of; the planet; civilization; all the atoms, molecules, and energies of the universe. But let us try and challenge the Buddha. What is there that is outside of the eye & forms, the ear & sounds, the nose & aromas, the tongue & flavors, the body & tactile sensations, and the intellect & ideas? If you say Nibbana, you've already made an error. So where is the citta? the rupa? the jnana? the sati? the cetasika? I tell you they are nowhere but in your own mind. The are not "ultimate realities" any more than car, tree, sky, red, green, true, false, up or down are ultimate realities. These are empty words. Reality by its very nature gives us nothing to hang onto. In the present moment there is no room for citta or rupa. That is why we call them citta and rupa. Skillfull means. Friends, I am not criticizing the delineation of the paramatta-dhammas or the usefulness of the abidhamma-pitaka or its commentaries. I am criticizing the potential dangers in trying to analyze them conceptually. And make no mistake, these are just concepts. The Buddha knows how easy it is to become lost in the realm of the intellect & ideas. Perhaps the commentator Buddhaghosa had enough time and merit to master both meditation and his scholarly pursuits, we will never know. I am sure, however, that I have neither the time nor the accumulated merit to do the same. Therefore, the best this non-person can do is to sit on a non-cushion and practice not-practicing. May you all be clear sighted, present and at peace. Bhinnatta --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/18/2004 34312 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 4:48pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Nibbida Revulsion or Disinterest Hi Jeff, I agreed with you when I first read your post, and still do, but only this morning the following thoughts occurred to me. I simply remembered the many times I had attempted to give up smoking, and how I was becoming quite good at it :-) And then I remembered that I finally succeeded when each time a craving for a cigarette arose, I could counter it with revulsion at the thought of the smell, the taste, the coughing, the memory of phlegm, the image of pink lungs lined with tar. In short, the craving was countered with revulsion, which seemed more effective in my case than other tricks like diversion or simple acknowledgment. Perhaps revulsion can be seen as a useful intermediate step in countering craving. All the best Herman ====================== I believe the translation of the Pali term 'Nibbida' as 'Revulsion' is a classic example of Theravadan dogma affecting the translation of the Pali canon. The term 'Nibbida' was used by the historic Buddha to describe a necessary stage in which a contemplative arrives at a place of dispassion toward the aggregates (khandas/skhandas) so that equanimity, one of the 7 factors of enlightenment, can emerge. The problem with translating 'Nibbida' as 'Revulsion' is since when did the Buddha ever propose an aversive mental state, such as revulsion, could ever give rise to the cessation of displeasure and suffering (dukkha)? In fact we need only look to the 4 Noble Truths to know that both grasping and aversion are the causes of displeasure and suffering (dukkha). So, how could the scholars, such as Bhikkhu Bodhi, forget the foundations of Buddhist philosophy when they worked on their translations? 34313 From: robmoult Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 6:33pm Subject: Re: Some caution and non-advice Hi Bhinnatta, I sincerely appreciate this message. There are some excellent reminders here. Allow me to identify the parts that had the biggest impact on me. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sujjhana Bhinnatta" wrote: > Hi Rob M, Ken H, and all you other non-selves posting these conceptual > non-truths. (being satirical not mean) > > ------------------- > Rob:> Ken H, are you trying to trap me again!?! One doesn't need > > vipassana (formal meditation, heaven forbid!) to have sati > > (mindfulness) of the present moment :-) You sly devil :-) What do > > you mean by "ordinary experience"? From anybody else, I would take > > it at face value, but in your case, I smell a trap :-) :-) :-) > > B: What is more skillfull, being able to classify and label all mental > states, cittas, cetasikas and rupas, or having one moment of real experience > free from greed, aversion, and ignorance? ===== I strongly agree that theory without practice is useless. I try to maintain a balance of the two in my life, but the "Rob M" on DSG does not reflect this balance. From time to time, on DSG and in my class, I try to encourage friends to apply the theory in their daily lives but I sometimes find that it comes across as "preachy" and I fear that it is not always appreciated. From time to time, on DSG and in my class, I talk of the joy I experience when doing dana, as part of sila, or during my formal meditation but I find that it sometimes comes across as "boasting". In brief, the "Rob M" that you read on DSG is only half the story. I monitor the balance and when I feel that there is too much theory, I try to add more practical. Unfortunately, that doesn't come across on DSG. ===== > And don't give me the notion that > having experience implies a self because, from what I have been reading, the > selves that have all these different ideas and positions on translation, > meaning, definition, order, and theme are very much alive and well in this > group. ===== Anybody on DSG who claims to have uprooted self-view is deluding themselves. The unwolesome state of mind accompanied by self-view arises all the time. Studying the Abhidhamma has taught me that taking the unwholesome state of mind as an object of consciousness (i.e. seeing it as it is) is a wholesome state of mind. My meditation teachers say the same thing (ususally without the Pali jargon). The thought, "I am in pain" is unwholesome whereas the thought, "pain has arisen" can be wholesome. Many times, I have exorted to my class, "note anger as it arises... take the 'I' out of it... this is the way to take away its support..." They shake their heads and say, "easier said than done" and I have to agree as I remember recent instances when I "lost it" with one of my sons. It makes me feel like a hypocrite (or should I say, "a feeling of hypocrisy arises :-) ). I am reminded of a quote by Socrates. He said, "even a fool can speak the truth". And often, that is how I feel... like a fool speaking the truth. ===== > Claiming anatta and realizing anatta are very different. One requires > some reading and conjecture, the other does indeed require the "formal > meditation" that we loath so much. ===== My teachers have told me many times that truly and completely understanding anatta one experiences Nibbana. I am told that the same is true for anicca and dukkha. Again, I do not believe that anybody on DSG truly and completely understands anatta. One thing that I note from the Suttas is that the Buddha tailored His approach based on the accumulations of the audience. There are many forms of practice described in the Suttas. Formal meditation is an important part of my practice, but for some on DSG, formal meditation strengthens the idea of a self trying to achieve or control. Ken H and I were joking about my reluctance to get drawn into a discussion on this subject. ===== > I am not disagreeing with Rob's claim > about sati. Truly mindfulness is not dependent on vipassana, but I have yet > to meet or hear of someone having any real development of sati without > regularly practicing some sort of satipatthana. ===== I happen to agree with you regarding the importance of formal meditation. Perhaps my sarcastic taunts at Ken H were misinterpreted. As it turns out, Ken H feels that he was unjustly accused. My "take- away" is that, in the future, my attempts at humour should not involve harsh language. I truly value the harmonious discussion of DSG and I realize that sarcasm does not translate well into a written form. Thanks for the reminder. ===== > Forgive my oversimplification. I read these posts with great enthusiasm > every day, but sometimes I feel as if they are going in circles. I'm > reminded of the Sabba Sutta (SN XXXV.23): > > "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will > speak." > "As you say, lord," the monks responded. > > The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & > sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, > intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [1] Anyone who would say, > 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what > exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, > and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." > > I'm reminded of this sutta because when we discuss the details of Abidhamma > or cittas or cetasikas, we are still working within the confines of this > "all." We are so used to the word "all" meaning everything we can think of; > the planet; civilization; all the atoms, molecules, and energies of the > universe. But let us try and challenge the Buddha. What is there that is > outside of the eye & forms, the ear & sounds, the nose & aromas, the tongue > & flavors, the body & tactile sensations, and the intellect & ideas? If you > say Nibbana, you've already made an error. > > So where is the citta? the rupa? the jnana? the sati? the cetasika? I tell > you they are nowhere but in your own mind. The are not "ultimate realities" > any more than car, tree, sky, red, green, true, false, up or down are > ultimate realities. These are empty words. Reality by its very nature gives > us nothing to hang onto. In the present moment there is no room for citta or > rupa. That is why we call them citta and rupa. Skillfull means. > > Friends, I am not criticizing the delineation of the paramatta- dhammas or > the usefulness of the abidhamma-pitaka or its commentaries. I am criticizing > the potential dangers in trying to analyze them conceptually. And make no > mistake, these are just concepts. The Buddha knows how easy it is to become > lost in the realm of the intellect & ideas. ===== The temple that I attend in Kuala Lumpur is the home of Dr. K. Sri Dhammananda. He has written over 100 books on Buddhism and he is a great inspiration to all who meet him. During his Dhamma talks each week, he never talks about Abhidhamma per-se, but when I have asked him privately to clarify points, it is clear that he knows the subject extremely well. Here is what he writes about the Abhidhamma in his book, "What Buddhists Believe: "The question is raised whether the Abhidhamma is essential for Dhamma practice. The answer to this will depend on the individual who undertakes the practice. People vary in their levels of understanding, their temperaments and spiritual development. Ideally, all the different spiritual faculties should be harmonized, but some people are quite contented with devotional practices based on faith, while others are keen on developing penetrative insight. The Abhidhamma is most useful to those who want to understand the Dhamma in greater depth and detail. It aids the development of insight into the three characteristics of existence - impermanence, unsatisfactoriness, and non-self. It is useful not only for the periods devoted to formal meditation, but also during the rest of the day when we are engaged in various mundane chores. We derive great benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we experience absolute reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge of the Abhidhamma is useful for those engaged in teaching and explaining the Dhamma. In fact, the real meaning of the most important Buddhist terminologies such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and Nibbana cannot be understood without a knowledge of Abhidhamma." ===== > Perhaps the commentator > Buddhaghosa had enough time and merit to master both meditation and his > scholarly pursuits, we will never know. I am sure, however, that I have > neither the time nor the accumulated merit to do the same. Therefore, the > best this non-person can do is to sit on a non-cushion and practice > not-practicing. ===== I agree... Don't just do something, sit there! Again, I sincerely appreciate your message. Metta, Rob M :-) 34314 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jun 30, 2004 11:11pm Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Rob M, This conversation we are having has been quite unsettling in a way. Apparently, my understanding of Abhidhamma is very different from yours. It is for this reason, I think, that you have misunderstood most of my questions and I, no doubt, have misunderstood most of your answers. One important matter to clear up is whether citta can or cannot take a citta or a cetasika as its object. A more subtle point is the relative importance of dhammas as against concepts. You think that dhammas (as objects of consciousness) are pretty meaningless in their own right - not much to care about either way. Therefore, you are of the opinion that strong kamma, lobha, alobha and so on all happen in the mind door with concepts as object. I go to opposite extreme. It is just my opinion, but I think that kamma and the other cetasikas are mainly interested in dhammas and we only *think* we are interested in concepts (people, places, situations). I like the analogy Nina gave: a baby can delight in a balloon without having the slightest notion of what a balloon is. But even this analogy can be taken either way. I interpret it to mean that strong lobha can arise to experience visible object without any concept (pannatti) of what is seen. I know Nina did not mean that visible object was meaningless (like balloon-science to a baby (or like a dot of light)). I hope we can clear up some of our different interpretations. It's times like these when I wish I were a better student: instead of letting you and the other well-prepared dsg members battle it out, I could be in there quoting from texts seeing the finer points. In this lifetime, my role seems to be that of enthusiastic onlooker. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34315 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 0:48am Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Rob, Thank you for your clarification of that post. Forgive my misinterpretation of the intended sarcasm. I too know that it often does not translate well in text form. I do feel it led to a valuable train of thought for me, and now I see it did the same for you. Thank you. ===== Rob:> I strongly agree that theory without practice is useless. I try to > maintain a balance of the two in my life, but the "Rob M" on DSG does > not reflect this balance......In brief, the "Rob M" that you read on > DSG is only half the story. B: I understand the duality. Indeed it is impossible for me to have any sembance of you in my mind based upon our brief encounters in binary form, nor you of me. I can only criticize words and ideas posted online, not the individuals who post them. However, if those letters and meanings are not clear to me I must speak up. Most of the time truthfully I am having a conversation with only myself. Prodding and slapping myself out of a daydream or wrong view. ===== Rob:> Studying the Abhidhamma has taught me that taking the unwholesome > state of mind as an object of consciousness (i.e. seeing it as it is) > is a wholesome state of mind. My meditation teachers say the same > thing (ususally without the Pali jargon). The thought, "I am in pain" > is unwholesome whereas the thought, "pain has arisen" can be > wholesome. B: I agree, and I would wager we could both agree that studying the Abhidhamma is a fruitful activity in that it gives us a model with which to identify those unskillful states. However being true to the wisdom in the Vajracchedika-prajna-paramita sutra, I must add that the model is not and can never become the thing in-and-of-itself. And I would even go so far as to say that ultimately even the model must be relinquished (re: the overused raft analogy). ===== Rob:> My teachers have told me many times that truly and completely > understanding anatta one experiences Nibbana. I am told that the same > is true for anicca and dukkha. Again, I do not believe that anybody > on DSG truly and completely understands anatta. B: I would certainly include myself in that group. It is important to understand this not understanding. Recognizing the three characteristics of anicca, dukkha, and anatta in phenomena is important to all practicioners, not just Arahants. Even if it is only by 'directed thought and evaluation' at first, we must come to understand that what is inconstant is stressfull; what is stressfull is not self nor does it belong to a self. Of the three, it has been my experience that this truth of anatta gives us the most problems. One can almost smell the aversion to the subject every time it is mentioned. It is however, an essential truth to be realized and not just some concept to be claimed as philosophy. I'll end this rant with a reminder that the Buddha himself spent a great deal of his time avoiding the pitfalls of eternalism and nihilism; two hindrances that circle very closely around this anatta business. We must not be heedless. ===== Rob:> One thing that I note from the Suttas is that the Buddha tailored His > approach based on the accumulations of the audience. There are many > forms of practice described in the Suttas. Formal meditation is an > important part of my practice, but for some on DSG, formal meditation > strengthens the idea of a self trying to achieve or control. Ken H > and I were joking about my reluctance to get drawn into a discussion > on this subject. B: Once again, please forgive my misinterpretation of your conversation with Ken. I am always fascinated by the way teaching is listed among the supranormal powers of the Buddha. But then I realize how truly miraculous it was to be able to direct and communicate his experience and understanding to whomever he was speaking with. The Fire Sermon (SN XXXV.28) comes to mind as a perfect example. With regard to formal meditation practice however, I must disagree with those on DSG who harbor the view you mention. The Buddha taught the truth of Right Concentration AND the the truth of Anatta. Using the latter to justify the invalidity of the former could mean one of two things: 1)that one has a wrong understanding of anatta, or 2)that the Buddha contradicted himself and has given us reason to doubt him. My practice (and the fruits of that practice) leaves no room doubt in the tiratana (Triple Gem) and have no recourse but to go with option 1. And yet I still don't understand the perceived aversion to the development of jnana. Not enough time in the day? Did someone get hurt? I remember when I was in grade school, some kid got put into a coma from playing dodgeball in physical education class somewhere in the midwestern United States. Then all of the sudden nobody anywhere could play dodgeball because of the perceived health risks. Is this the case with jnana? Is it now unskillfull to attain jnana? I hope someone could clarify this for me. ===== Rob:> ...Dr. K. Sri > Dhammananda......Here is what he writes about the Abhidhamma > in his book, "What Buddhists Believe: > "The question is raised whether the Abhidhamma is essential for > Dhamma practice. The answer to this will depend on the individual who > undertakes the practice. People vary in their levels of > understanding, their temperaments and spiritual development. Ideally, > all the different spiritual faculties should be harmonized, but some > people are quite contented with devotional practices based on faith, > while others are keen on developing penetrative insight. The > Abhidhamma is most useful to those who want to understand the Dhamma > in greater depth and detail. It aids the development of insight into > the three characteristics of existence - impermanence, > unsatisfactoriness, and non-self. It is useful not only for the > periods devoted to formal meditation, but also during the rest of the > day when we are engaged in various mundane chores. We derive great > benefit from the study of the Abhidhamma when we experience absolute > reality. In addition, a comprehensive knowledge of the Abhidhamma is > useful for those engaged in teaching and explaining the Dhamma. In > fact, the real meaning of the most important Buddhist terminologies > such as Dhamma, Kamma, Samsara, Sankhara, Paticcasamuppada and > Nibbana cannot be understood without a knowledge of Abhidhamma." B: Excellent! Well said. ===== > Again, I sincerely appreciate your message. > Metta, > Rob M :-) B: Thank you for the lesson. I truly value this digital sangha. May we all soon realize perfect enlightenment. May you all be happy and well. Bhinnatta --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/18/2004 34316 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 1:37am Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > This conversation we are having has been quite unsettling in a way. > Apparently, my understanding of Abhidhamma is very different from > yours. It is for this reason, I think, that you have misunderstood > most of my questions and I, no doubt, have misunderstood most of > your answers. > > One important matter to clear up is whether citta can or cannot take > a citta or a cetasika as its object. ===== Bhikku Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (p136) says: Six kinds of objects fall into the category of mental object (dhammarammana). Sensitive matter (pasadarupa) is the sensory receptive substance in the five sense organs; it is fivefold, eye- sensitivity, ear-sensitivity, etc. Subtle matter (sukhumarupa) includes sixteen species of material phenomena enumerated below, among them the water element. Citta is also a type of mental object. Though citta experiences objects, citta in turn can become an object. It should be noted that a citta in its immediacy cannot become its own object, for the cognizer cannot cognize itself; but a citta in an individual mental continuum can experience earlier cittas in that same mental continuum as well as the cittas of other beings. The fifty two cetasikas can also become objects of a mind door process, as for example, when one becomes aware of one's feelings, volitions and emotions. Nibbana becomes the object of cittas occurring in the mental processes of noble individuals, both trainees and Arahants. Concepts - the class of conventional realities, things which do not exist in the ultimate sense - also fall into the category of mental object. Normally, the Abhidhamma is very precise with its use of terms. The one glaring exception is the use of the term "citta". The Abhidhamma uses it both for the paramattha dhamma of consciousness and for the mental state which is a combination of the paramattha dhamma of consciousness and a set of mental factors (paramattha dhammas of cetasikas). In my class, I am very careful to only use the term "citta" to refer to the paramattha dhamma and I use the term "mental state" for the combination of citta + cetasikas. As I read Bhikkhu Bodhi's text above, I believe that he is talking about mental states as being the object of mind-door processes. I do not interpret his writing as implying that one can be aware of the paramattha dhamma of citta in isolation of the mental state, nor do I interpret his writing as implying that one can be aware of a specific cetasikas in isolation of the paramattha dhammas (citta and cetasikas) that accompany it. ===== > > A more subtle point is the relative importance of dhammas as against > concepts. You think that dhammas (as objects of consciousness) are > pretty meaningless in their own right - not much to care about > either way. Therefore, you are of the opinion that strong kamma, > lobha, alobha and so on all happen in the mind door with concepts as > object. ===== Not quite. I am of the opinion that the lobha that arises during the sense door process is attachment to visible object. This is the sensuous clinging that is weakened by a Sakadagami and uprooted by an Anagami. It is the "I like to have a visible object" type of clinging. As per the CMA quote from my earlier message, following this sense door process is a conformal mind door process followed by many mind door processes that grasp the object as a whole, followed by many mind door processes that recognize the colour (at this point the pre-naming baby has the "I like blue" type of clinging). This is then followed by the grasping the shape of the object (at this point the pre-naming baby has the "I like the shape" type of clinging). This is followed by the recognizing the shape (at this point the pre- naming baby may or may not have the "I like round things" type of clinging; it depends if the baby knows the concept of "round" yet). This is followed by grasping of name mind-door processes and recognizing of name mind-door processes. When you first fell in love (love is as strong an emotion as I can imagine), how much of that love was really love for that person (did you really know them that well???) versus love with the way that you felt (love with the idea of being in love)? And when you fell in love, was it really her eyes, her hair, etc. that prompted those strong feelings? (sorry for getting personal, no need to answer). I am of the opinion that the lobha gets progressively stronger as the pattern of processes progresses. A baby in the womb can react to sound and light, but the lobha created is very, very weak. I am not sure about your use of the terms "importance", "meaningless" and "not much to care about". Everything arises because of conditions. The sense input is a condition that triggers the whole pattern of processes. The progression of the pattern of processes depends on accumulations (defilements, etc.). Mental proliferation does not arise without contact. The pressure exerted by a finger on the trigger is small, but because of conditions, this small pressure sets into a motion a sequence of events that results in a bullet whizzing through the air. Would we say in this case that the pressure of the finger of the trigger was "unimportant", "meaningless" or "not much to care about"? ===== > > I go to opposite extreme. It is just my opinion, but I think that > kamma and the other cetasikas are mainly interested in dhammas and > we only *think* we are interested in concepts (people, places, > situations). ===== Please expand on your opinion. It sounds interesting. I have never learned anything from anybody who agreed with me. ===== > > I like the analogy Nina gave: a baby can delight in a balloon > without having the slightest notion of what a balloon is. > > But even this analogy can be taken either way. I interpret it to > mean that strong lobha can arise to experience visible object > without any concept (pannatti) of what is seen. I know Nina did not > mean that visible object was meaningless (like balloon-science to a > baby (or like a dot of light)). ===== I have given my interpretation of the pre-naming baby above. ===== > I hope we can clear up some of our different interpretations. It's > times like these when I wish I were a better student: instead of > letting you and the other well-prepared dsg members battle it out, I > could be in there quoting from texts seeing the finer points. In > this lifetime, my role seems to be that of enthusiastic onlooker. :- ) ===== I find these discussions to be of great value. I really appreciate the opportunity to fine tune my understanding (and in some cases, through my wrong ideas out the window). Metta, Rob M :-) 34317 From: Philip Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 1:52am Subject: The value of papanca ( msg #524 from Rob K) Hello all As you know, I've been wondering about papanca, and have been reading the Useful Posts on the subject. I found this interesting letter from Rob K (#524, from September 2000) that lays out how the study of one word (in this case papanca) can generate helpful insight. It shows me that papanca is not something to be avoided anxiously, but more material for the grist mill of experience leading to understanding. I think it also shows how a form of practice that might appear intellectual and self-driven on the surface (study of one word from the Pali canon) generates better understanding of not-self. Towards the end, it also reminds me that there are countless lifetimes to come before I begin to have real understanding, so patience is best. Patiently dealing with papanca and learning from it as from all akusala rather than trying in vain to choke it off. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Robert Kirkpatrick wrote: > Dear GROUP > Theresa sent us some translations of some suttas > (see posting danger and friend). Thank you Theresa. > Studying the Titipika ?Ethe Vinaya, the Suttanta, the > Abhidhamma is the only way to learn what it was that > the Buddha taught. If we don't know what he taught how > can we practice correctly? We might be practicing > something different from the Buddha's teaching. > > But how do we study? > Every word in the Tipitika is worth investigating. > Every sentence has deep meaning. > Let us consider the word "complication?E This was > In the Anguttara Nikaya VIII.30 > Anuruddha Sutta > One of the suttas that Theresa emailed, in one > sentence the Buddha told Anuruddha > This Dhamma is for one who > enjoys non-complication, who delights in > non-complication, not for > one who enjoys & delights in complication.(snip) What do you think the Buddha meant by complication and > non-complication? I once heard someone -referring to > this sutta- say this meant people should not think too > much because this complicates things and takes people > away from the present moment. And in a superficial way > there is something in this. But we can always learn > more. > > Complication in this sutta is the English translation > for papanca. There are three papanca ?Etanha (desire), > ditthi(view) and mana (conceit). (see netti pakarana > paragraph 203, 204).These three are said to prolong > samasara vata , the round of births and deaths. > And now we may want to understand what the Buddha > mean by tanha, for example? Is tanha something we have > only when we want sex or get hungry or go shopping? Or > is there more to it? So we study a little more - we > learn that the Buddha said tanha was samudaya sacca > the cause for dukkha. The Patisamabhidhi magga ( I > 597) says that wordly life is diversified (another > word for papanca ) by 108 kinds of tanha. Tanha is > also one of the factors in the paticcusamupada. In the > Nidana- Vagga of the Samyutta Nikaya: > The Buddha said: I will teach you, monks, the origin > of repeated birth and passing away of beings in this > world. What, monks, is the origin of beings? > On account of the eye base and visible object, eye > consciousness arises. Contact (phassa) is the > conjunction of the three; through contact, feeling > arises; through feeling desire(TANHA) arises; through > desire attachment (upadana) arises; through attachment > bhava (process of becoming) arises; through becoming > birth arises; through birth decay and death, sorrow, > lamentation. > The Buddha then repeated this for the other doors of > ear, nose, tongue taste body and mind. > > Then we might wonder ?Ewell is this process of > Paticcusamupada happening now, at this moment? Now > there is seeing, there is phassa, there is feeling. Is > there tanha? If one investigates in daily life just > this question over and over one may learn that even > when the feeling is very neutral tanha may be > present.?EFor example I am sitting in my office in > Japan and just glanced at the pastel coloured wall- no > particular like or dislike noticeable at that moment > and yet could tanha of some degree, even if it wasn't > apparent have arisen? Only by studying directly these > moments in daily life can we find out the answers and > really learn just what life is and what the Buddha > taught. > > Do we want to stop this tanha, try and suppress it? > Well that is one way (and in fact it was my early > practice). But we can also understand it; and I think > that is most useful. Then we can study its > characteristic more. We might find that it is very > common indeed. We might learn that when we try to have > sati that tanha can come in and masquerade as sati. > But if we are prepared to study tanha again and > again ?Eand of course not neglect the direct study of > all other realities- we might become wary of its > tricks. We might start to see the difference between > true sati and the manifold counterfeits that are > actually tanha, a papanca, a prolonger of samasara. > Also we might find out that when we thought we had > sati often that this was merely mana, conceit ?Ea > papanca, a prolonger of samsara. AND we might begin > to realize that when we had the idea that we could > make sati arise by concentrating that this is an idea > of control, of self. That it is ditthi, another > papanca, prolonger of samsara. If we find these things > out we are learning something of immeasurable value. > We are learning what we really are ?Ea skin bag > stuffed with kilesa. Then we are beginning to > comprehend what this path involves. > > This letter started off to discuss one word from a > sutta ?Epapanca .So far we haven't even scratched the > surface on one aspect of papanca. > That is to be expected. One aeon is so long ?EBillions > and billions of years, maybe longer. The Buddha took > four incalculably long periods of time plus one > hundred thousand aeons to develop the wisdom to become > a Buddha . We don't have to develop parami to the > extent of a Buddha but it still takes a long, long > time. We might hope that we are the developed ones who > have so much parami already but this is just tanha, > one of the papanca, or we may be sure we are ones who > already have great parami, but this is mana, another > papanca, a prolonger of samasara. During these many > aeons in countless lives the Buddha was firm to keep > investigating. It says in the Madhuratthavilisini, the > commentary to the Buddhavamsa (chapter on sumedha IIA > p155) that the Bodhisatta at the time of Dipankara > Buddha, 24 Buddhas ago, was investigating the parami > of wisdom. He realized what needed to be done and made > this aspiration that "questioning discerning people > all the time (he would) go on to the perfection of > wisdom?E > > But how did he question wise people? Certainly not in > a careless way. He must have evaluated the answers so > rigorously and then considered how to ask even more > discerning questions. Nor did he ask in a way that > wanted to show off his wisdom. He sincerely wanted to > learn. Developing this skill in questioning is part of > the path. Some are not yet ready even for this. This > too depends on accumulations. This skill might sound > trivial but it takes time, in fact lifetimes to > develop. If it is not developed then one could discuss > with many helpful people but get nothing from it. > > It is our attitude when investigating that is > important. One could be intent on learning about > papanca, for example, but be unaware of the cittas > while studying and not even realize that sometimes it > was papanca motivating the study. If that is the case > then no great benefit comes from such research. We > need to bear in mind that the purpose of study, the > purpose of discussion is to help us better understand > this moment. > SO I write all this just as much for myself as anyone > else. I need to develop more listening skills, more > questioning skills . I need to study much more , > countless times more the characteristics of tanha and > mana and ditthi. I need to consider more, much more > the words in the Tipitika. > > Robert 34318 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 2:25am Subject: Re: The value of papanca ( msg #524 from Rob K) Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > As you know, I've been wondering about papanca, and have been > reading the Useful Posts on the subject. I did not know that you were studying papanca. One or two books from my library have sections on papanca that might be of interest to you. Option 1 is for you to email to me a fax number Option 2 is for you to email me your snail mail address Metta, Rob M :-) 34319 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 5:31am Subject: Re: The value of papanca ( msg #524 from Rob K) Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > As you know, I've been wondering about papanca, and have been > > reading the Useful Posts on the subject. > > I did not know that you were studying papanca. One or two books from > my library have sections on papanca that might be of interest to you. > > Option 1 is for you to email to me a fax number > > Option 2 is for you to email me your snail mail address Sorry Phil, option 1 will not work. The book that I have, "Concept and Reality in Early Buddhist Thought" by Bhikkhu Nanananda is dedicated to a discussion of papanca and it runs to more than 150 pages. Let me know if you are THAT interested in papanca :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 34320 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 5:41am Subject: Re: The value of papanca ( msg #524 from Rob K) Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" > wrote: > > > As you know, I've been wondering about papanca, and have been > > > reading the Useful Posts on the subject. > > > > I did not know that you were studying papanca. One or two books > from > > my library have sections on papanca that might be of interest to > you. > > > > Option 1 is for you to email to me a fax number > > > > Option 2 is for you to email me your snail mail address > > Sorry Phil, option 1 will not work. The book that I have, "Concept > and Reality in Early Buddhist Thought" by Bhikkhu Nanananda is > dedicated to a discussion of papanca and it runs to more than 150 > pages. Let me know if you are THAT interested in papanca :-) I found another papanca book that I read years ago titled, "Buddhist Psychology of Perception" by E.R. Sarachchandra (his PhD thesis). It is just over 100 pages. If you are really, really interested in this subject, I will mail you copies of both books. Metta, Rob M :-) 34321 From: Philip Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 5:57am Subject: Greed -> faith? (was Re: The value of papanca ( msg #524 from Rob K) Hi Rob Thank you kindly. I will contact you off-list. A volume that you recommend and could lend a budding Abhidhamma devotee would be greatly appreciated over the upcoming summer holiday. I wondered if my desire to devour Dhamma material these days (since I came across Abhidhamma in Daily Life in February, actually) represents a kind of attachment or greed - well, I was aware that it must be, but felt comforted by a sense that it was a kind of greed that was pulling me towards understanding that would eventually see through the greed and lead to liberation from it. I found something interesting in Visuddhimagga III-75 that encouraged me and seemed that it might confirm my suspicion on this point: "One of faithful temperament is parallel to one of greedy temperament because faith is strong when profitable (meaning kusala, I take it) khamma occurs in one of greedy temperament, owing to its special qualities being near to those of greed. For, in an unprofitable (akusala) way greed is affectionate and not over- austere, and so, in a profitable way, is faith. Greed seeks out sense desires as object while faith seeks out the special qualities of virtue and so on. And greed does not give up what is harmful, while faith does not give up what is beneficial." The idea of "temperament" doesn't seem to fit with annata, though I guess it can be explained by accumulations. But it's certainly interesting to consider that my unwholesome greed for Dhamma reading might be bringing me closer to wholesome faith. Wishful thinking on my part, no doubt, because the passage doesn't contain anything about the greedy person shedding greed for good and becoming one of faithful temperament. It only says " when profitable khamma occurs." Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > As you know, I've been wondering about papanca, and have been > > reading the Useful Posts on the subject. > > I did not know that you were studying papanca. One or two books from > my library have sections on papanca that might be of interest to you. > > Option 1 is for you to email to me a fax number > > Option 2 is for you to email me your snail mail address > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 34322 From: Philip Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 6:04am Subject: Re: The value of papanca ( msg #524 from Rob K) Hi Rob Oops. Cross-posted yet again. Since we're in the same time zone I guess we're DSGing around the same time quite often. Well, not THAT interested in Papanca, I guess. Not yet. I am heading into Cetasikas by Nina, to be followed by Conditions, and have ordered the Manual of Abhidhamma, so I guess my summer reading will be covered after all. But it was a very kind offer. If you have any spare copies of commentaries or other books that you find are cluttering your shelves I will give them a good home, I can assure you. :) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > wrote: > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" > > > wrote: > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" > > wrote: > > > > As you know, I've been wondering about papanca, and have been > > > > reading the Useful Posts on the subject. > > > > > > I did not know that you were studying papanca. One or two books > > from > > > my library have sections on papanca that might be of interest to > > you. > > > > > > Option 1 is for you to email to me a fax number > > > > > > Option 2 is for you to email me your snail mail address > > > > Sorry Phil, option 1 will not work. The book that I have, "Concept > > and Reality in Early Buddhist Thought" by Bhikkhu Nanananda is > > dedicated to a discussion of papanca and it runs to more than 150 > > pages. Let me know if you are THAT interested in papanca :-) > > I found another papanca book that I read years ago titled, "Buddhist > Psychology of Perception" by E.R. Sarachchandra (his PhD thesis). It > is just over 100 pages. If you are really, really interested in this > subject, I will mail you copies of both books. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) 34323 From: Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 2:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi, Ken (and Rob) - In a message dated 7/1/04 2:13:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Rob M, > > This conversation we are having has been quite unsettling in a way. > Apparently, my understanding of Abhidhamma is very different from > yours. It is for this reason, I think, that you have misunderstood > most of my questions and I, no doubt, have misunderstood most of > your answers. > > One important matter to clear up is whether citta can or cannot take > a citta or a cetasika as its object. > > A more subtle point is the relative importance of dhammas as against > concepts. You think that dhammas (as objects of consciousness) are > pretty meaningless in their own right â€" not much to care about > either way. Therefore, you are of the opinion that strong kamma, > lobha, alobha and so on all happen in the mind door with concepts as > object. > > I go to opposite extreme. It is just my opinion, but I think that > kamma and the other cetasikas are mainly interested in dhammas and > we only *think* we are interested in concepts (people, places, > situations). ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I largely agree with your position on this, Ken. I believe that our reactions (of craving, aversion, and attachment) are associated with dhammas that are not conceptually constructed. However, these dhammas typically are associated with and underlie concepts, but it erroneously *seems* that it is the pa~n~natti that we react to rather than the underlying dhammas. Actually, as the Buddha said, it is vedana to which we react with tanha and upadana, and I suspect that most of the time the vedana we react to is vedana associated with bodily sensation. Even when we fantasize something that results in craving or aversion, what I suspect happens is that the thinking results immediately in physical sensations that we find pleasant or unpleasant, and it is to these pleasant or unpleasant sensations that we then react with craving or aversion. ----------------------------------------------------- > > I like the analogy Nina gave: a baby can delight in a balloon > without having the slightest notion of what a balloon is. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mmm. I suspect that while there are no concepts in the form of definitional understanding and discursive thoughts arising, there *is* primitive, low-level conceptualization going on already involving some degree of cognitive proliferation. I don't think that it is the mere visual and tactile experiences that give the delight the baby experiences. The tactile experiences may produce pleasant or unpleasant feelings, the visual experiences may produce neutral feelings, and subsequent mind-door experiences may produce further vedana. These feelings will lead to recognition (sa~n~na) of a low degree, and then subsequent cognitive proliferation will lead to positive or negative reaction. The real *delight* comes when the baby reaches for the balloon and his/her actions are seen to have consequences such as (the assemblage of dhammas underlying what we call) the balloon bouncing away, and this involves subliminal, non-discursive, cognitive proliferation. However, that delight, ultimately, I believe is direct reaction not to concepts but to the pleasant or unpleasant bodily sensations resulting from the conceptual experiencing. So, still, it isn't the concepts to which there is direct reaction, but physical sensations. ------------------------------------------------------ > > But even this analogy can be taken either way. I interpret it to > mean that strong lobha can arise to experience visible object > without any concept (pannatti) of what is seen. I know Nina did not > mean that visible object was meaningless (like balloon-science to a > baby (or like a dot of light)). > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't think that is so. Visual experience *without some degree of conceptualizing* wouldn't produce anything other than neutral feeling, and the only affective reaction to that would be neutral. ---------------------------------------------- > > I hope we can clear up some of our different interpretations. It's > times like these when I wish I were a better student: instead of > letting you and the other well-prepared dsg members battle it out, I > could be in there quoting from texts seeing the finer points. In > this lifetime, my role seems to be that of enthusiastic onlooker. :-) > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34324 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 6:25am Subject: Greed -> faith? (was Re: The value of papanca ( msg #524 from Rob K) Hi Phil, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > I wondered if my desire to devour Dhamma material these days > (since I came across Abhidhamma in Daily Life in February, actually) > represents a kind of attachment or greed - well, I was aware that it > must be, but felt comforted by a sense that it was a kind of greed > that was pulling me towards understanding that would eventually see > through the greed and lead to liberation from it. > > I found something interesting in Visuddhimagga III-75 that > encouraged me and seemed that it might confirm my suspicion on this > point: "One of faithful temperament is parallel to one of greedy > temperament because faith is strong when profitable (meaning kusala, > I take it) khamma occurs in one of greedy temperament, owing to its > special qualities being near to those of greed. For, in an > unprofitable (akusala) way greed is affectionate and not over- > austere, and so, in a profitable way, is faith. Greed seeks out sense > desires as object while faith seeks out the special qualities of > virtue and so on. And greed does not give up what is harmful, while > faith does not give up what is beneficial." > > The idea of "temperament" doesn't seem to fit with annata, though I > guess it can be explained by accumulations. But it's certainly > interesting to consider that my unwholesome greed for Dhamma reading > might be bringing me closer to wholesome faith. Wishful thinking on > my part, no doubt, because the passage doesn't contain anything about > the greedy person shedding greed for good and becoming one of > faithful temperament. It only says " when profitable khamma occurs." You are touching on a term called carita. The term "carita" is found in the Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga and the Vimutthimagga (a precursor to the Visuddhimagga that focuses on meditation); it is often translated as "temperament", "personal nature", "propensity" or "character". The Abhidhammatthasangaha lists forty meditation subjects. By understanding our own caritas (one may have a combination of caritas), we can select appropriate meditation objects. A person with an incorrect meditation object will find spiritual progress difficult. There are cases where Sariputta approached the Buddha for advice when one of Sariputta's students was not progressing; in these cases the Buddha would recommend a different meditation object. Raga-carita By nature, they are lustful, greedy or passionate; they have a propensity for desire and longing. The appropriate meditation subject is 10 kinds of foulness, 32 parts of the body. Dosa-carita By nature, they are hateful, angry; they have a propensity for irritation and anger. The appropriate meditation subject is the four illimitable and the 4 coloured kasinas. Moha-carita By nature, they are deluded; they have a propensity for delusion and superstition. Breathing is the appropriate meditation subject. Saddha-cartia By nature, they are faithful; they have a propensity to gullibility and snap judgments. The appropriate meditation subjects are the 6 recollections of the Buddha. Buddhi-carita By nature, they are intellectual, intelligent; they have a propensity to curiosity and reasoning things through. The appropriate meditation subjects are the 4 elements, loathsomeness of food, death, peace. Vitakka-carita By nature, they are discursive, speculative, ruminating or pondering; they have a propensity to excessive thought and worry. Breathing is the appropriate meditation subject. Other meditation subjects are suitable for all types of carita The texts considers these caritas in pairs: - Raga-carita does not give up on what is harmful while saddha-carita does not give up on what is beneficial. - Dosa-carita is disaffected and does not hold onto its object in an unprofitable way while buddhi-carita is also disaffected and does not hold onto its object, albeit in a profitable way. - Moha-carita vacillates due to superficiality while vitakka-carita vacillates due to conjecturing. It is important to remember the purpose of these classifications; to select meditation subjects. As I recall, the texts even go so far as to recommend the most appropriate type of place for each to meditate and even the type of food they should eat. This is also one of the few places that Buddhaghosa mentions a specific source (Upatissa's Vimuttimagga), says that he disagrees and offers his own position. An interesting topic... if you are interested in formal meditation :-) Metta, Rob M :-) 34325 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 7:09am Subject: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Howard (and Ken), --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Howard: > I largely agree with your position on this, Ken. I believe that our > reactions (of craving, aversion, and attachment) are associated with dhammas > that are not conceptually constructed. However, these dhammas typically are > associated with and underlie concepts, but it erroneously *seems* that it is the > pa~n~natti that we react to rather than the underlying dhammas. Actually, as the > Buddha said, it is vedana to which we react with tanha and upadana, and I > suspect that most of the time the vedana we react to is vedana associated with > bodily sensation. Even when we fantasize something that results in craving or > aversion, what I suspect happens is that the thinking results immediately in > physical sensations that we find pleasant or unpleasant, and it is to these > pleasant or unpleasant sensations that we then react with craving or aversion. > ----------------------------------------------------- ===== I am having a hard time with this. You mention vedana as a foundation for tanha and upadana. That is how the Buddha described it in paticcasamuppada, when he was talking about what binds us to rebirth in samsara. However, when the Buddha talked about how thoughts progress, He did not introduce tanha or upadana. It was in the Honeyball Sutta (Mn 18) that the Buddha talked most clearly about how thoughts progress: "Dependent on eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling." [Rob: This explains that feeling arises naturally and objectively from contact.] "What one feels, that one names. What one names, that one thinks about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates." [Rob: The wording makes it clear that the process of naming, thinking about and mental proliferation are subjective.] "With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions and notions tinged by mentally proliferation beset a man with respect to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye." [Rob: Mental proliferation adds to what is seen; it then feeds upon itself, covering over the true nature of the object, layer by layer.] Howard (and Ken), my intepretation of this Sutta is that the real problems in thinking occur at the conceptualization stage rather than the feeling stage. The Mulapariyaya Sutta (Mn 1) describes the differences in how the thoughts of an uninstructed worldling (that's us) progress, as compared to how the thoughts of a trainee (Sotapanna / Sakadagami / Anagami) progess, as compared to how the thoughts of an Arahant progress, as compared to how the thoughts of the Buddha progress. In this Sutta, the Buddha explains that the uninstructed worldling gets off track at the perception stage ("percieves" with sannavipallasa versus "directy knows"), but that the real problems occur at the conceptualization stage. WARNING: without a detailed commentary, the Mulapariyaya Sutta seems to make almost no sense. I have a 75-page book on this Sutta written by Bhikkhu Bodhi and it is still very tough reading. Metta, Rob M :-) 34326 From: Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 4:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi, Rob (and Ken) - In a message dated 7/1/04 10:14:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Hi Howard (and Ken), > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > >Howard: > > I largely agree with your position on this, Ken. I believe > that our > >reactions (of craving, aversion, and attachment) are associated > with dhammas > >that are not conceptually constructed. However, these dhammas > typically are > >associated with and underlie concepts, but it erroneously *seems* > that it is the > >pa~n~natti that we react to rather than the underlying dhammas. > Actually, as the > >Buddha said, it is vedana to which we react with tanha and upadana, > and I > >suspect that most of the time the vedana we react to is vedana > associated with > >bodily sensation. Even when we fantasize something that results in > craving or > >aversion, what I suspect happens is that the thinking results > immediately in > >physical sensations that we find pleasant or unpleasant, and it is > to these > >pleasant or unpleasant sensations that we then react with craving > or aversion. > >----------------------------------------------------- > > ===== > > I am having a hard time with this. You mention vedana as a foundation > for tanha and upadana. That is how the Buddha described it in > paticcasamuppada, when he was talking about what binds us to rebirth > in samsara. However, when the Buddha talked about how thoughts > progress, He did not introduce tanha or upadana. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, not everything is discussed everywhere. But even here I think that tanha reaction is implied, as I will point out shortly. ---------------------------------------------- It was in the > > Honeyball Sutta (Mn 18) that the Buddha talked most clearly about how > thoughts progress: > > "Dependent on eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting of > the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling." > > [Rob: This explains that feeling arises naturally and objectively > from contact.] > ------------------------------------------ Howard: Agreed. ------------------------------------------ > > "What one feels, that one names. ------------------------------------------- Howard: That is, one recognizes. (Operation of sa~n~na.) ------------------------------------------- > What one names, that one thinks > about. What one thinks about, that one mentally proliferates." > > [Rob: The wording makes it clear that the process of naming, thinking > about and mental proliferation are subjective.] ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Sure. ------------------------------------------------ > > "With what one has mentally proliferated as the source, perceptions > and notions tinged by mentally proliferation beset a man with respect > to past, future and present forms cognizable though the eye." > > [Rob: Mental proliferation adds to what is seen; it then feeds upon > itself, covering over the true nature of the object, layer by layer.] > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Elsewhere, the word 'assail' is used instead of 'beset'. In any case, I take this being assailed or beset by notions to consist in papa~nca --> bodily sensation --> pleasant or unpleasant vedana --> reaction of craving or aversion. This all takes place as the result of conceptual proliferation - I agree completely, but the reaction is not directly to the concepts but to the vedana resulting (in a few steps) from the conceptualizing. ------------------------------------------------- > > Howard (and Ken), my intepretation of this Sutta is that the real > problems in thinking occur at the conceptualization stage rather than > the feeling stage. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I believe there are multiple feeling stages. The most powerful ones, and I think this is your sense, and I agree with it, occur as the result of conceptualizing. But always, reactions of craving and aversion are to vedana (mediated by sa~n~na). The more powerful vedana resulting from mental embellishment produces the more powerful reactions. ------------------------------------------------- > > The Mulapariyaya Sutta (Mn 1) describes the differences in how the > thoughts of an uninstructed worldling (that's us) progress, as > compared to how the thoughts of a trainee (Sotapanna / Sakadagami / > Anagami) progess, as compared to how the thoughts of an Arahant > progress, as compared to how the thoughts of the Buddha progress. > > In this Sutta, the Buddha explains that the uninstructed worldling > gets off track at the perception stage ("percieves" with > sannavipallasa versus "directy knows"), but that the real problems > occur at the conceptualization stage. > > WARNING: without a detailed commentary, the Mulapariyaya Sutta seems > to make almost no sense. I have a 75-page book on this Sutta written > by Bhikkhu Bodhi and it is still very tough reading. > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34327 From: Gis Lene Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 7:35am Subject: hello Dear friends. My name is Gislene. I am new in this list. I am brazilian, living in São Paulo and I am very very interested in learning and practice buddhism. I think it is possible to use these principles, philosophy and psychology in many areas. So I want to learn about that and first of all learn and practice that principles in my own life. If you know how I can start this here in São Paulo, please, let me know. Last year I went to some Kadampa, Nyingma meetings. For many reasons I stopped my learning and I´m back now for others many reasons. One of theses reasons is because I realise the similarity between the buddhistic philosophy and the Hunas philosophy. So, I think it is the time to put more energy and learn more about both. I am not sure about the Theravada tradition. Is it the same learning of the Kadampa tradition? Is the Lamrin meditation the same in Nyingma and in the Theravada? Sorry for my english and for my questions, but I am just starting in all the meaning of that word has. Regards. Gislene _________________________________________________________________ MSN Messenger: converse com os seus amigos online. http://messenger.msn.com.br 34328 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 1:26pm Subject: Re: hello Hi Gislene! > My name is Gislene. I am new in this list. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Welcome to the noblest company of Dhamma Students that never strode across the beautiful Northern Canada's woods ! My name is Ícaro and I am brazillian too: you find here the more substantial food for your soul ( I beg your pardon for this evident abuse of language...hahah!!!). Theravada Buddhism is the more ancient, mystical and classical of all buddhistic denominations and here you will met the best on Pali texts' exegesis (Nina Van Gorkon and RobMoult),good reasoning and questioning about many canonical texts, with cute remarks on interesting aspects about these and others landmarks of Buddha's Doctrine (Larry Sabu, Howard, Rob Epstein, the other Ken,Bhikkhu Samahitta, Sarah and Jon Abbott), much heartwarming thoughts about the most delicate aspects of Doctrine (Chris, Connie, Nori, Azita, Phil, Sukin) or just fun and pranking with serious issues (ME!!!!). ---------------------------------------------------------------------- I think it is possible to use these > principles, philosophy and psychology in many areas. So I want to learn > about that and first of all learn and practice that principles in my own > life. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- One thing you will easily perceive here, Gislene, is the fact that Buddha teached the Dhamma in many ways and modes...so no one here will spend time discussing about methods of meditation, because the use of these and other issues on Doctrine remain a personal research and a personal understanding of everyone here. You can gather up many excelent fruits on Nina Van Gorkon's texts, mainly the "Abhidhamma in daily Life". You will get posted here at our files many interesting texts to download... or you can try a direct attack on original texts, as I did, with the best results!!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > If you know how I can start this here in São Paulo, please, let me know. --------------------------------------------------------------------- You can try "A Casa do Dhamma",ín São Paulo. it's theravada but I haven't much more info about it. Here in Rio exists a traditional theravada temple at Santa Teresa...but it lacks time for me to visit the Bhikkhus and give some Dana ( I promise I'll do it, RobMoult!!!!!) --------------------------------------------------------------------- > I am not sure about the Theravada tradition. Is it the same learning of the > Kadampa tradition? Is the Lamrin meditation the same in Nyingma and in the > Theravada? --------------------------------------------------------------------- Not at all. Nyingma, kadampa, "Mind Only", etc, are of mahayana basis...that's entirely different of Theravada's: the true repository of the original words, teachings and meditation techniques of Buddha. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Sorry for my english and for my questions, but I am just starting in all the > meaning of that word has. > ------------------------------------------------------------------ You are welcome!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34329 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 2:10pm Subject: Re: hello Hi Gislene, Welcome ot DSG. For more information on the Theravada tradition, I recommend the website Access to Insight Readings in Theravada Buddhism http://www.accesstoinsight.org Peace, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Gis Lene" wrote: > Dear friends. > > My name is Gislene. I am new in this list. > I am brazilian, living in São Paulo and I am very very interested in > learning and practice buddhism. I think it is possible to use these > principles, philosophy and psychology in many areas. So I want to learn > about that and first of all learn and practice that principles in my own > life. > If you know how I can start this here in São Paulo, please, let me know. > Last year I went to some Kadampa, Nyingma meetings. For many reasons I > stopped my learning and I´m back now for others many reasons. One of theses > reasons is because I realise the similarity between the buddhistic > philosophy and the Hunas philosophy. So, I think it is the time to put more > energy and learn more about both. > I am not sure about the Theravada tradition. Is it the same learning of the > Kadampa tradition? Is the Lamrin meditation the same in Nyingma and in the > Theravada? > > Sorry for my english and for my questions, but I am just starting in all the > meaning of that word has. > > Regards. > > Gislene 34330 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 2:10pm Subject: Greed -> faith? (was Re: The value of papanca ( msg #524 from Rob K) Hi RobMoult!!! > You are touching on a term called carita. The term "carita" is >found > in the Abhidhamma, Visuddhimagga and the Vimutthimagga (a precursor > to the Visuddhimagga that focuses on meditation); it is often > translated as "temperament", "personal nature", "propensity" > or "character". The Abhidhammatthasangaha lists forty meditation > subjects. By understanding our own caritas (one may have a > combination of caritas), we can select appropriate meditation > objects. A person with an incorrect meditation object will find > spiritual progress difficult. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Cf. Visuddhimagga, chapter 3, just before the explanation about the Kasinas...I am reading again the Vism. and founding more and more treasures!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > Raga-carita > By nature, they are lustful, greedy or passionate; they have a > propensity for desire and longing. The appropriate meditation subject > is 10 kinds of foulness, 32 parts of the body. > > Dosa-carita > By nature, they are hateful, angry; they have a propensity for > irritation and anger. The appropriate meditation subject is the four > illimitable and the 4 coloured kasinas. > > Moha-carita > By nature, they are deluded; they have a propensity for delusion and > superstition. Breathing is the appropriate meditation subject. > > Saddha-cartia > By nature, they are faithful; they have a propensity to gullibility > and snap judgments. The appropriate meditation subjects are the 6 > recollections of the Buddha. > > Buddhi-carita > By nature, they are intellectual, intelligent; they have a propensity > to curiosity and reasoning things through. The appropriate meditation > subjects are the 4 elements, loathsomeness of food, death, peace. > > Vitakka-carita > By nature, they are discursive, speculative, ruminating or pondering; > they have a propensity to excessive thought and worry. Breathing is > the appropriate meditation subject. > > Other meditation subjects are suitable for all types of carita > > The texts considers these caritas in pairs: > - Raga-carita does not give up on what is harmful while saddha- carita > does not give up on what is beneficial. > - Dosa-carita is disaffected and does not hold onto its object in an > unprofitable way while buddhi-carita is also disaffected and does not > hold onto its object, albeit in a profitable way. > - Moha-carita vacillates due to superficiality while vitakka-carita > vacillates due to conjecturing. > > It is important to remember the purpose of these classifications; to > select meditation subjects. As I recall, the texts even go so far as > to recommend the most appropriate type of place for each to meditate > and even the type of food they should eat. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- excelent reminder, Rob!!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- > > This is also one of the few places that Buddhaghosa mentions a > specific source (Upatissa's Vimuttimagga), says that he disagrees and > offers his own position. > > An interesting topic... if you are interested in formal meditation :-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Sometimes I think that a good plunge on chapters 3 and four of Visuddhimagga is the only thing the usual searcher of meditation needs to be free of misconcepts and illusions about these matters!!! Keep Boostin' Pal!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34331 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 2:16pm Subject: Re: hello Hi Victor! > Hi Gislene, > > Welcome ot DSG. I forgot to mention you, pal!!! Sorry!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34332 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 2:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hello Howard, Ken, and Rob, Just more words and ideas to spin about: ===== Howard:> I largely agree with your position on this, Ken. I believe > that our reactions (of craving, aversion, and attachment) are associated > with dhammas that are not conceptually constructed. However, these dhammas > typically are associated with and underlie concepts, but it erroneously *seems* > that it is the pa~n~natti that we react to rather than the underlying dhammas. ===== B: I was initially amused by this conversation. Sounds very similar to the chicken/egg conspiracy. What comes first, the concept or the vedana? What dhammas are involved when I have an aversion to the idea of going to the gym? I'm not actually experiencing the 'going to the gym' so there is no underlying experiential dhammas that I am avoiding other than some mental ideation and memories of painful leg curls. If I had aversion to the dhammas underlying the concepts, then the aversion would have nothing to do with going to the gym, and would rather be like avoiding all smells because I have an aversion to the dhammas behind the smell of feces (forgive the crude illustration). The justification being that the same dhammas involved in smelling -- a flower, for example -- are involved in smelling feces. The point is that taken out of context (or concept), the aversion or attachment has no meaning, and therefore there must be an aversion to the concept rather than the underlying dhammas. ===== Howard:> Buddha said, it is vedana to which we react with tanha and upadana, > and I suspect that most of the time the vedana we react to is vedana > associated with bodily sensation. Even when we fantasize something that results in > craving or aversion, what I suspect happens is that the thinking results > immediately in physical sensations that we find pleasant or unpleasant, and it is > to these pleasant or unpleasant sensations that we then react with craving > or aversion. ===== B: On the other hand, this is true as well. Continuing with the gym analogy, even though I am having aversion to the concept of going to the gym, it is the concept itself that produces vedana that I am reacting to. But wait! Is the concept itself the painful vedana or does the concept produce the painful vedana? By Howard's logic, my thinking of going to the gym produces unpleasant sensations in my body (perhaps my muscles have memory) that I then react to with aversion. But why the need for the middle man (i.e. the body)? Why can't the thinking produce aversion directly? ===== Rob:> The Mulapariyaya Sutta (Mn 1) describes the differences in how the > thoughts of an uninstructed worldling (that's us) progress, as > compared to how the thoughts of a trainee (Sotapanna / Sakadagami / > Anagami) progess, as compared to how the thoughts of an Arahant > progress, as compared to how the thoughts of the Buddha progress. > > In this Sutta, the Buddha explains that the uninstructed worldling > gets off track at the perception stage ("percieves" with > sannavipallasa versus "directy knows"), but that the real problems > occur at the conceptualization stage. B: The most unproblematic translation for sa~n~na I have come across is 'to mark'. When an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person percieves (marks) earth as earth...etc.; versus when a Worthy One, devoid of mental fermentations directly knows earth as earth...etc. Perception is to delineate 'what is' with respect to 'what is not'. To mark a sensation or subset of sensations as 'this' while simultaneously marking the remaining set of sensations as 'not this'. For this is how we come to define and later conceputalize the manifold 'world' of nama and rupa. Once a thing has boundaries/defining points, only then does it truly become a 'thing' and subsequently is thought about, analyzed, fretted over, etc. "Directly knowing earth as earth, he does not conceive things about earth, does not conceive things in earth, does not conceive things coming out of earth, does not conceive earth as 'mine,' does not delight in earth. Why is that? Because he has comprehended it, I tell you." (MN 1) The Arahant, however, in directly knowing earth as earth etc., no longer cares? about what 'is' and 'is not,' for such distinctions are meaningless. This is not to say that there is no discernment of phenomena, just that this discernment does not lead to conceptualization and later papanca. I believe that what was once 'marked' by sa~n~na is now discerned by pa~n~na. The suble difference being that pa~n~na does not discern by grasping or delineating. It is more fluid, adaptive, and dispassionate than sa~n~na which tries to freeze phenomena in order to discriminate the chaos of sense perception. ===== B: Sorry for the convoluted logic here. The point I'm trying to make is that both Howard and Rob are correct. There is an aversion/attachment to things on a conceptual level as well as aversion/attachment to dhammas on the level of feeling. I think the argument is fruitless however, because a concept is a dhamma is a concept. Attacking from different angles does not change the object of attack. Concepts condition feeling just as dhammas condition feeling, and furthermore feeling in turn conditions concepts. Aversion/attachment can arise from either. I think the real problem you are having comes from thinking Paticca-samuppada is a linear system when in reality it is more of a chaotic system with plenty of feedback loops and cross-conditionality. ===== Rob quoting MN18:>"Dependent on eye and forms, eye consciousness arises. The meeting > of the three is contact. With contact as a condition there is feeling." ===== The following is gleened from the translator's introduction to MN 18: **BEGIN**In DN 21 the sequence is as follows: the perceptions & categories of papañca > thinking > desire > dear-&-not-dear > envy & stinginess > rivalry & hostility In Sn IV.11, the map is less linear and can be diagramed like this: perception > the categories of papañca perception > name & form > contact > appealing & unappealing > desire > dear-&-not-dear > stinginess/divisiveness/quarrels/disputes Starting with feeling, the notion of an "agent" -- in this case, the feeler -- acting on "objects," is introduced: What one feels, one perceives (labels in the mind). What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one "papañcizes". Through the process of papañca, the agent then becomes a victim of his/her own patterns of thinking: Based on what a person papañcizes, the perceptions & categories of papañca assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye [as with the remaining senses].**END** ===== B: The important thing to note that is not represented in either Howard's or Rob's interpretation is the part about the introduction of a "feeler" acting on "objects". The significant difference between an uninstructed run-of-the-mill person and an Arahant is this creation of an "agent". Ken:> Avoid it or not, it will not go away: it is involved in every facet > of Dhamma discussion. Every attempt at understanding Dhamma comes > down to anatta and to the question, `Is there someone who is trying > to create understanding or are there only namas and rupas?' B: Ken hits it right on the money here. Though the wording of his question I might change, it does always come down to the truth and realization of Anatta. Hopefully my endless mumblings are coherent to at least one of you. Forgive me once again for butting in. May you all attain perfect wisdom and unrivaled compassion. Bhinnatta --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/18/2004 34333 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 3:51pm Subject: Re: Some caution and non-advice --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sujjhana Bhinnatta" wrote: > Hi Rob M, Ken H, and all you other non-selves posting these conceptual > non-truths. (being satirical not mean) All satire and absence of meanness duly noted and appreciated, thank you. I hope I can do as well - diplomacy is not always my strong suit. :-) ------------ > B: What is more skillfull, being able to classify and label all mental states, cittas, cetasikas and rupas, or having one moment of real experience free from greed, aversion, and ignorance? > ------------------- KH: I suppose the latter is more skilful, but a combination of the two would be ideal. ------------------- B: > And don't give me the notion that having experience implies a self because, -------------------- KH: Having experience does not imply a self. `Wanting to have experience;' now that's a different matter. --------------------- B: > from what I have been reading, the selves that have all these different ideas and positions on translation, meaning, definition, order, and theme are very much alive and well in this group. > -------------------- KH: Yes, even our most well read (and published) members admit to being uninstructed worldlings. They say, as Dhamma-students, they are still in kindergarten. -------------------- B: > Claiming anatta and realizing anatta are very different. One requires some reading and conjecture, the other does indeed require the "formal meditation" that we loath so much. > ------------------- KH: I'll be interested in seeing any Tipitaka references to formal meditation, but I don't think there are any. Mind you, we have to agree on the meaning of formal meditation and that could require a lot of discussion. -------------------- B: > I am not disagreeing with Rob's claim about sati. Truly mindfulness is not dependent on vipassana, but I have yet to meet or hear of someone having any real development of sati without regularly practicing some sort of satipatthana. > ------------------- KH: I think you'll find that vipassana is a moment of consciousness in which something ultimately real is experienced by the mental factor, panna (right understanding). It should not be confused with any conventional activity such as formal meditation. Nor does it require formal meditation to bring it about. -------------------- B: > Furthermore, I may be misinterpreting the point, but I do not understand the Ven. Bhikku Bodhi's attempt to show that enlightenment is possible without jnanas. Is samattha really that painful? ------------------- KH: Well, enlightenment is a kind of jhana (a supramundane kind). But it does not require the prior development of jhana. It is true that the Buddha and many of his disciples developed mundane jhana prior to enlightenment but there were good reasons for that, and those reasons do not apply to everyone. ------------------- B: Also, satipatthana meditation does not lead to "dry insight" as Ven. Bodhi claims. --------------------- KH: By the definition of dry insight, satipatthana, in a person who has not developed the mundane jhanas, does lead to dry insight (enlightenment without mundane jhanas). ------------------------- B: > Any degree of developed sati by its very nature has concentration as its co-requisite. ------------------------- KH: Yes, in fact concentration always arises in all types of consciousness, even in unwholesome consciousness. Right concentration co-arises with right mindfulness and with right understanding and the other right mental factors. And, may I add, the suttas tell us that right understanding comes first - in the sense of its being the leader. That is why we study Dhamma - to develop right understanding. In a moment of right understanding, right concentration arises immediately, by conditions. --------------------------- B: In other words, remembering to be mindful of an object over and over and over again, to the point where one has continuous sati, necessitates an equivalent degree of concentration. Again, I'm open to clarification. ----------------- KH: Here, I suspect you are talking about formal meditation - something the Buddha never taught (IMHO). ----------------- B: Forgive my oversimplification. I read these posts with great enthusiasm every day, but sometimes I feel as if they are going in circles. I'm reminded of the Sabba Sutta (SN XXXV.23): "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. ---------------------- KH: This is possibly my favourite sutta, but I don't like the translation, "intellect and ideas." It suggests that concepts are part of the all, which they are not. "Mind and mental phenomena" is a better translation. ----------------------- <. . . > B: > I'm reminded of this sutta because when we discuss the details of Abidhamma or cittas or cetasikas, we are still working within the confines of this "all." We are so used to the word "all" meaning everything we can think of;the planet; civilization; all the atoms, molecules, and energies of the universe. But let us try and challenge the Buddha. What is there that is outside of the eye & forms, the ear & sounds, the nose & aromas, the tongue & flavors, the body & tactile sensations, and the intellect & ideas? If you say Nibbana, you've already made an error. ---------------------- KH: Nothing we experience (or can experience) is outside the "all." Nibbana, as you say, is within the "all." It is included as one of the mental phenomena (wrongly translated above as "ideas"). -------------- B: > So where is the citta? the rupa? the jnana? the sati? the cetasika? I tell you they are nowhere but in your own mind. They are not "ultimate realities" any more than car, tree, sky, red, green, true, false, up or down are ultimate realities. These are empty words. Reality by its very nature gives us nothing to hang onto. In the present moment there is no room for citta or rupa. That is why we call them citta and rupa. Skillfull means. ------------- KH: Maybe so, Binnatta, but, if (IF) I understand you correctly, you are asserting something that is contrary to the Buddhadhamma as preserved in the Pali Canon. That is the teaching I am most interested in. If you are right, I am in trouble. :-) --------------------------- B: Friends, I am not criticizing the delineation of the paramatta- dhammas or the usefulness of the abidhamma-pitaka or its commentaries. I am criticizing the potential dangers in trying to analyze them conceptually. And make no mistake, these are just concepts. The Buddha knows how easy it is to become lost in the realm of the intellect & ideas. Perhaps the commentator Buddhaghosa had enough time and merit to master both meditation and his scholarly pursuits, we will never know. I am sure, however, that I have neither the time nor the accumulated merit to do the same. Therefore, the best this non-person can do is to sit on a non- cushion and practice not-practicing. ---------------- KH: While you are there, ask yourself (or your non-self); "Could I or could I not practise in this way without having heard the Dhamma?" Before any Tathagata can begin propound his teaching, the thought always occurs to him; "Surely it would be a waste of time to teach this Dhamma, it is too difficult for any worldling to understand." If it is so difficult as to make a Tathagata think that way, you and I cannot begin to imagine how difficult it is. So let's not have any more talk about "Just doing it!" :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34334 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 4:08pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: hello Hi Gislene, I think Icaro forgot me as well, maybe because Brazil doesn't change a change in Euro2004, and he knows it :-) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Herman -----Original Message----- From: icarofranca [mailto:icarofranca@y...] Sent: Friday, 2 July 2004 7:17 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: hello Hi Victor! > Hi Gislene, > > Welcome ot DSG. I forgot to mention you, pal!!! Sorry!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34335 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 4:11pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: hello That was meant to say 'doesn't stand a chance'. I wonder where my head was :-) Herman -----Original Message----- From: Herman Hofman [mailto:hhofman@t...] Sent: Friday, 2 July 2004 9:09 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: hello Hi Gislene, I think Icaro forgot me as well, maybe because Brazil doesn't change a change in Euro2004, and he knows it :-) HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA Herman -----Original Message----- From: icarofranca [mailto:icarofranca@y...] Sent: Friday, 2 July 2004 7:17 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: hello Hi Victor! > Hi Gislene, > > Welcome ot DSG. I forgot to mention you, pal!!! Sorry!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34336 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 4:46pm Subject: Re: Dependent Origination-a representation Hi all, More than a month ago I posted couple messages on the representation of the dependent origination. However, I did not explain the representation in detail. First let me copy the representation as following: ---------- represent being present ========== represent being equivalent to Ignorance Fabrications------Ignorance Consciousness-----Ignorance Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance Six Sense Bases---Ignorance Contact-----------Ignorance Feeling-----------Ignorance Craving===========Fabrications------Ignorance Clinging==========Fabrications------Ignorance Becoming----------Consciousness-----Ignorance Birth-------------Nama-Rupa---------Ignorance Birth-------------Six Sense Bases---Ignorance Aging-------------Contact-----------Ignorance Aging-------------Feeling-----------Ignorance Aging-------------Craving===========Fabrications Aging-------------Clinging==========Fabrications Death-------------Becoming----------Consciousness ------------------Birth-------------Nama-Rupa ------------------Birth-------------Six Sense Bases ------------------Aging-------------Contact ------------------Aging-------------Feeling ------------------Aging-------------Craving ------------------Aging-------------Clinging ------------------Death-------------Becoming ------------------------------------Birth In Samyutta Nikaya XII.2 Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta Analysis of Dependent Co-arising http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html the Buddha taught that "And what is dependent co-arising? From ignorance as a requisite condition come fabrications. From fabrications as a requisite condition comes consciousness. From consciousness as a requisite condition comes name-&-form. From name-&-form as a requisite condition come the six sense media. From the six sense media as a requisite condition comes contact. From contact as a requisite condition comes feeling. From feeling as a requisite condition comes craving. From craving as a requisite condition comes clinging/sustenance. From clinging/sustenance as a requisite condition comes becoming. From becoming as a requisite condition comes birth. From birth as a requisite condition, then aging & death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair come into play. Such is the origination of this entire mass of stress & suffering." There is a linear progression in this conditionality. However, the relation between these requisite conditions are more than conditionality in linear progression. For examples: 1. Name-&-form includes contact and feeling. 2. Craving and clinging/sustenance are fabrications, bodily, verbal, or mental. 3. With fabrications as requisite condition, consciousness becomes established in new becoming after death, whether it is sensual becoming, form becoming. [For the consciousness of an arahant, please refer to the passage * at the end.] 4. In birth there is appearance of aggregates, & acquisition of [sense] media of the various beings in this or that group of beings. The formulation of the dependent origination is like a projection of a helix in three dimensional space onto a plane. However, the projection itself is circular and two dimensional. Metta, Victor * §106. Then the Blessed One went with a large number of monks to the Black Rock on the slope of Isigili. From afar he saw Ven. Vakkali lying dead on a couch. Now at that time a smokiness, a darkness was moving to the east, moved to the west, moved to the north, the south, above, below, moved to the intermediate directions. The Blessed One said, "Monks, do you see that smokiness, that darkness...?" "Yes, Lord." "That is Mara, the Evil One. He is searching for the consciousness of Vakkali the Clansman: 'Where is the consciousness of Vakkali the Clansman established?' But, monks, it is through unestablished consciousness that Vakkali the Clansman has attained total Unbinding." [SN XXII.87] http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/study/aids/examples.html 34337 From: agriosinski Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 6:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Rob (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 7/1/04 10:14:45 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > rob.moult@j... writes: > > > Hi Howard (and Ken), [...] > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I believe there are multiple feeling stages. The most powerful ones, > and I think this is your sense, and I agree with it, occur as the result of > conceptualizing. But always, reactions of craving and aversion are to vedana > (mediated by sa~n~na). The more powerful vedana resulting from mental > embellishment produces the more powerful reactions. > ------------------------------------------------- Hi Haward, Rob and others, wouldn't be possible that feeling is based only on rupa and conditions of its perception, but egoish reaction to this feeling (kind of sunna -> vedana ->etc) starts from the moment of assuming an ownership of this whole process? the kind of sankhara arising is a personal one, and not really observing, knowledgable one. metta, Agrios 34338 From: Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 3:56pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi, Agrios - In a message dated 7/1/04 10:26:47 PM Eastern Daylight Time, agriosinski@y... writes: > > Hi Haward, Rob and others, > > wouldn't be possible that > feeling is based only on rupa and conditions of its perception, > but egoish reaction to this feeling (kind of sunna -> vedana ->etc) > starts from the moment of assuming an ownership of this whole process? > > the kind of sankhara arising is a personal one, and not really observing, > knowledgable one. > > metta, > Agrios > ============================ Feeling is based on contact, but often indirectly so. The contact may be through any sense door. From my own experience, what the feeling is *directly* associated with is physical sensation. What I'm putting forward is that all contact, through whatever door - body, ear, eye, tongue, nose, or mind - produces neutral, pleasant, or unpleasant *bodily sensations*. That is, the vedana produced by contact is indirectly produced by first producing (often subtle) bodily sensations, and these are experienced as neutral, pleasant, or unpleasant. When, for example, we *see* something that we find pleasant, what happens is that visual contact is followed by a mind-door contact with that same visual object that "identifies" it, and that contact produces subtle, pleasant b odily sensations which we associate with the original visual object. This seems to me to be the way the matter proceeds. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34339 From: Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 9:25pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Howard: "When, for example, we *see* something that we find pleasant, what happens is that visual contact is followed by a mind-door contact with that same visual object that "identifies" it, and that contact produces subtle, pleasant bodily sensations which we associate with the original visual object." Hi Howard, I think abhidhamma would call this consciousness produced rupa. But this seems awfully convoluted to me. We see an image that we like; the liking consciousness produces a pleasant bodily feeling which we also like, plus both liking consciousnesses are accompanied by pleasant mental feeling. Then its gone. Contact is kind of like a magnetic force that brings things together, theoretically. I don't know if we really experience contact. Nina could sort this out better when she gets back. Larry 34340 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 1, 2004 10:30pm Subject: Feelings Hi all, Regarding feelings, here is a discourse in which the Buddha shows that there are one hundred and eight kinds of feelings: Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.22 Atthasatapariyaya Sutta One Hundred Eight Feelings http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-022.html "I shall show you, O monks, a way of Dhamma presentation by which there are one hundred and eight (feelings). Hence listen to me. "In one way, O monks, I have spoken of two kinds of feelings, and in other ways of three, five, six, eighteen, thirty six and one hundred and eight feelings. "What are the two feelings? Bodily and mental feelings. "What are the three feelings? Pleasant, painful and neither-painful- nor-pleasant feelings. "What are the five feelings? The faculties of pleasure, pain, gladness, sadness and equanimity. "What are the six feelings? The feelings born of sense-impression through eye, ear, nose, tongue, body and mind. "What are the eighteen feelings? There are the (above) six feelings by which there is an approach (to the objects) in gladness; and there are six approaches in sadness and there are six approaches in equanimity. "What are the thirty six feelings? There are six feelings of gladness based on the household life and six based on renunciation; six feelings of sadness based on the household life and six based on renunciation; six feelings of equanimity based on the household life and six based on renunciation. "What are the hundred and eight feelings? There are the (above) thirty six feelings of the past; there are thirty six of the future and there are thirty six of the present. "These, O monks, are called the hundred and eight feelings; and this is the way of the Dhamma presentation by which there are one hundred and eight feelings." Metta, Victor 34341 From: rahula_80 Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 2:37am Subject: Purify one's mind Hi, Dhammapada 183: Not to do evil, to cultivate merit, to purify one's mind .... How to purify one's mind? How to eliminate greed,hatred and delusion? Aren't we born with it? Thanks, Rahula 34342 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 3:21am Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Rob M, We were discussing whether citta and cetasika were included among the objects of mind-door consciousness. You wrote: ------------------- > Bhikku Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (p136) says: Six kinds of objects fall into the category of mental object <. . . > citta in turn can become an object <. . . > The fifty two cetasikas can also become objects of a mind door process, as for example, when one becomes aware of one's feelings, volitions and emotions. Normally, the Abhidhamma is very precise with its use of terms. The one glaring exception is the use of the term "citta". The Abhidhamma uses it both for the paramattha dhamma of consciousness and for the mental state which is a combination of the paramattha dhamma of consciousness and a set of mental factors (paramattha dhammas of cetasikas). <. . . > As I read Bhikkhu Bodhi's text above, I believe that he is talking about mental states as being the object of mind-door processes. I do not interpret his writing as implying that one can be aware of the paramattha dhamma of citta in isolation of the mental state, nor do I interpret his writing as implying that one can be aware of a specific cetasikas in isolation of the paramattha dhammas (citta and cetasikas) that accompany it. > --------------- That clarifies the question nicely, thanks Rob. Could it be answered by consulting the ancient commentaries? Without doing any research myself (as usual) I tend to think K Sujin and her students have already done it and, if I understand them correctly, they are of the opinion that citta and the 52 cetasikas can be experienced at the mind door, one at a time. Doesn't it make sense to you when you think about it? For example, you and I understand, reasonably well, the meaning of greed - how could we have acquired that understanding if citta had never taken lobha as its object? Thanks also for explaining how kamma and the emotions get stronger as the citta-vitis progressively conceptualise sensory data. I am swayed towards your opinion (that they start weak and get stronger) and then back to my opinion (that they start strong and get weaker). Perhaps neither is right: perhaps the level stays constant or it fluctuates unpredictably. I'm not sure how your `falling in love' questionnaire fits into the explanation, but I'll have a go at it: --------- Q: > When you first fell in love (love is as strong an emotion as I can imagine), how much of that love was really love for that person (did you really know them that well???) versus love with the way that you felt (love with the idea of being in love)? And when you fell in love, was it really her eyes, her hair, etc. that prompted those strong feelings? (sorry for getting personal, no need to answer). > --------------- According to my thesis, there was very, very strong lobha for sense objects. Not directly knowing sense objects, my conceptualising mind said; "What is going on here? I must be in love with [name deleted]!" But that was only thinking. [Name deleted] was not ultimately real, and the lobha that experienced her (if I may use that expression) was accordingly weak - I only thought it was strong. --------------------- KH: > > It is just my opinion, but I think that > kamma and the other cetasikas are mainly interested in dhammas and > we only *think* we are interested in concepts (people, places, > situations). > > RM: > Please expand on your opinion. It sounds interesting. I have never learned anything from anybody who agreed with me. ----------------------- OK, it's only a half thought-out opinion but here are two reasons for holding it: 1. The Dhamma repeatedly tells us that desire, aversion and ignorance with regard to the five sense objects (dhammas) and the mind objects (dhammas and concepts) are the cause of suffering. If desire etc., for concepts stood out, head and shoulders above the rest, then we would expect the Dhamma to explain it that way. 2. Kamma results in the experience of sense objects (dhammas). If, as you say, kamma is directed most strongly at concepts, then wouldn't the result of kamma be the experience of concepts, rather than the experience of dhammas? Thanks for bearing with me, Rob. :-) Ken H 34343 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:35am Subject: RE: [dsg] A rough guide to some jumbled posts intended (2) Hi Sarah, >Can we say that insight leads to the perception that form is inconstant >rather than the other way round? The short answer: Yes we can! :-) If you feel at all inclined, please bounce a yodel off one of the mountain faces for me (without starting an avalanche) :-) Enjoy! Herman Metta, Sarah ====== 34344 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:29am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Rob and everyone, You wrote: The Mulapariyaya Sutta (Mn 1) describes the differences in how the thoughts of an uninstructed worldling (that's us) progress, as compared to how the thoughts of a trainee (Sotapanna / Sakadagami / Anagami) progess, as compared to how the thoughts of an Arahant progress, as compared to how the thoughts of the Buddha progress. In this Sutta, the Buddha explains that the uninstructed worldling gets off track at the perception stage ("percieves" with sannavipallasa versus "directy knows"), but that the real problems occur at the conceptualization stage. WARNING: without a detailed commentary, the Mulapariyaya Sutta seems to make almost no sense. I have a 75-page book on this Sutta written by Bhikkhu Bodhi and it is still very tough reading. ===================================================== The following is part of the translators note (Thanissaro Bhikkhu) to the Mulapariyaya Sutta as found on ATI. "The Buddha taught that clinging to views is one of the four forms of clinging that tie the mind to the processes of suffering. He thus recommended that his followers relinquish their clinging, not only to views in their full-blown form as specific positions, but also in their rudimentary form as the categories & relationships that the mind reads into experience. This is a point he makes in the following discourse, which is apparently his response to a particular school of Brahmanical thought that was developing in his time -- the Samkhya, or classification school." If the above is a correct statement of the Buddha's position and its context, then mindful silence seems an appropriate Buddhist answer to the question as posed in the subject. Studying what X said about what Y said about what Z said about process P is quite a different program to studying P. The Nikayas suggest a steady stream of people attaining ever higher stages of emancipation. I see no such suggestion in the eras of the commentarial tradition and beyond. I make the obvious connection between the above and the fact that the nose immersed in a book is not studying P, it is studying what X said about etc etc. Kind regards Herman Metta, Rob M :-) 34345 From: Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 3:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi, Larry - In a message dated 7/2/04 12:28:53 AM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Howard: "When, for example, we *see* something that we find pleasant, > what happens is that visual contact is followed by a mind-door contact > with that same visual object that "identifies" it, and that contact > produces subtle, pleasant bodily sensations which we associate with the > original visual object." > > Hi Howard, > > I think abhidhamma would call this consciousness produced rupa. > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Okay. ----------------------------------------------- But this> > seems awfully convoluted to me. We see an image that we like; the liking > consciousness produces a pleasant bodily feeling which we also like, > plus both liking consciousnesses are accompanied by pleasant mental > feeling. Then its gone. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Well, I'm not at all expert on exactly what the Buddha taught and what he did not, but as I understand it, we don't directly "like" a visual object. I think that the vedanic response to a visual object is neutral, and thus there is no "liking response" directly involved at all. I think that the mind must participate first, and depending on that will arise a pleasant bodily sensation (the pleasantness being "liking" in rudimentary form), and then full blown "liking" in the form of tanha arises in response to the sukkha vedana due to the mind having been infected by ignorance. Now whether pleasant or unpleasant feelings arise only with body sense (touch, pains, itches, vibrations, tinglings etc) I'm not sure. There is at least one sutta I recall having seen where the Buddha speaks of the six ayatanas in abbreviated form as mind objects, sights, sounds, and sensations, thus lumping tactile objects, odors, and tastes under the category of "sensation". This lumping together makes good experiential sense to me, with these three being far more similar to each other than to mind objects, sights, or sounds. All three of them do seem to carry a sense of physical sensation, and perhaps it is so that all three of them can directly produce sukkha vedana and dukkha vedana, whereas mind objects, sights, and sounds cannot, but only indirectly so. Whether this is so or not, however, when mind objects, sights, or sounds are experienced and then the mind operates further on them producing sensations, it is not smells or tastes that are produced, except perhaps in memory or imagination - it is a tactile sensation that is produced. If, for example, a person is sexually infatuated with some other person, thinking about her/him won't produce actual odors or flavors, but it may produce memories or fantasies of such as well as touches etc, and all this thinking may produce bodily reactions of a tactile sort, and it is *these* that are directly experienced as sukkha. Thus, it seems to me that what can be *directly* apprehended as pleasant or unpleasant are tactile sensations, and possibly also smells and tastes, and nothing else. But *as the result of mental, visual, or auditory contact*, any resulting pleasantness or unpleasantness will directly pertain only to mind-produced tactile sensation. ---------------------------------------------- > > Contact is kind of like a magnetic force that brings things together, > theoretically. I don't know if we really experience contact. > Nina could sort this out better when she gets back. > > Larry > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34346 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 9:21am Subject: Re: [dsg] hello Dear Gislene Welcome to the list from me, and thanks for giving us an introduction. --- Gis Lene wrote: > Dear friends. > > My name is Gislene. I am new in this list. > I am brazilian, living in São Paulo and I am very very interested in > learning and practice buddhism. I think it is possible to use these > principles, philosophy and psychology in many areas. So I want to learn > about that and first of all learn and practice that principles in my own > life. > If you know how I can start this here in São Paulo, please, let me know. > Last year I went to some Kadampa, Nyingma meetings. For many reasons I > stopped my learning and I´m back now for others many reasons. One of > theses > reasons is because I realise the similarity between the buddhistic > philosophy and the Hunas philosophy. So, I think it is the time to put > more energy and learn more about both. > I am not sure about the Theravada tradition. Is it the same learning of > the > Kadampa tradition? Is the Lamrin meditation the same in Nyingma and in > the Theravada? I can see that your interests are wide-ranging, as are those of some of our other members here. I think you will find that the teachings of the Buddha cannot be picked up quickly or easily, but I think you'll find this list a good place to learn more about them. Please feel free to ask any questions. Jon 34347 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 9:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Dear Nori --- norakat147 wrote: > One of the things I have realized in my practice of self observation > is this: > > Pleasure and Pain is not the result of sensations in-and-of > themselves. > > Pleasure and Pain is the result of a reaction due to ones mentalD > disposition (or mental formation) and bodily disposition (or bodily > formation). > > For example: > > Lets say somebody is out walking in the sunlight. The sensations in- > and-of-themselves from the sun is warmth and other subtle sensations > on the skin; also light from the sun on the eyes/retina. > > These sensations in-and-of-themselves are not pain-suffering or > pleasure. It is only sensation; neutral, with no pain/suffering, no > pleasure. One can, by ones own volition, not think or react and feel > the sensations from the sun in-and-of-itself. > > But now if one were to think, `this sun, it is not good for my skin, > I can develop skin cancer.' And as soon as aversion develops, now one > can begin to feel in his body, in addition to the initial sensations > from the sun itself (i.e. the warmth and tingling sensation on the > skin) a very unpleasant sensation run all throughout his body; pain > and suffering begins. Now this sensation was not caused by the sun > itself. > > But now if one were to think, `this sun, it is good for my skin, I > can develop vitamin D, and benefit from its other effects.' And as > soon as a `liking' develops, now one can begin to feel in his body, > in addition to the initial sensations from the sun itself, a very > pleasant sensation run all throughout his body which scientists might > describe as a release of dopamine in the brain. > > Once again, the Pleasure or Pain is the result of a reaction due to > ones mental disposition (or mental formation) NOT - due to the sun, > or the sensations caused by the sun in-and-of-itself. Even the > sensation of being stabbed in the arm, while being a sharp and > intense sensation, in-and-of-itself, is not pain/suffering. It is > ones reaction in the form of aversion that is suffering. Sarah and I read your post this morning while enjoying the very pleasant feeling of the sun on our backs sitting high in the Swiss alps, with a clear view of the Matterhorn, and in my case a lovely cup of coffe to be enjoyed. There was a lot of pleasant feeling going on ;-)). > Depending on the level of aversion or `liking' one can develop > towards the object, the sensations caused on the body by the object > in-and-of-itself can be, and is in most cases, dwarfed by the > overwhelming sensations created by the reaction due to aversion > or `liking'. As to whether the bodily or the mental feelings predominate, however, I'm not sure we can generalise. But the important thing is to know that both kinds of feeling are occurring throughout the day, and that it's easy (and common, I suspect) to mistake one for the other. Jon 34348 From: Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 6:02am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon (and Nori) - In a message dated 7/2/04 12:48:26 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > >Depending on the level of aversion or `liking' one can develop > >towards the object, the sensations caused on the body by the object > >in-and-of-itself can be, and is in most cases, dwarfed by the > >overwhelming sensations created by the reaction due to aversion > >or `liking'. > > As to whether the bodily or the mental feelings predominate, however, I'm > not sure we can generalise. But the important thing is to know that both > kinds of feeling are occurring throughout the day, and that it's easy (and > common, I suspect) to mistake one for the other. > > ============================ Just to relate this matter to the recent conversation between Larry and me on vedana, I do agree with what you say here, Jon. All contact, mental as well as physical, results in vedana. What I conjecture is that the vedana *directly* resulting from from mental, auditory, and visual contact is always neutral, but in a few steps there can be indirectly generated body-door contact with associated pleasant or unpleasant vedana. Thus, pleasant or unpleasant mind-door, eye-door, and ear-door vedana is actually directly associated with body-door contact resulting from the original mind-door, eye-door, or ear-door contact. Indirectly, however, it is still appropriate to refer to that vedana as mind-door, eye-door, or ear-door, as that was the original point of genesis. I do believe that body-door contact always mediates pleasant and unpleasant vedana. Of course, this belief is not something I'm "invested" in. It just seems right to me. If I'm wrong in this belief, well, so be it! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34349 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 10:46am Subject: Re: Purify one's mind Hi Rahula, You might say that we are born with greed, hatred and delusion as though it is impossible to eliminate them. However, the truth is that it is possible to abandon what is unskillful and to develop what is skillful.[1] So how to purify one's mind and to eliminate greed,hatred and delusion? In short, abandon what is unskillful and to develop what is skillful. (Not to do what is unwholesome and to do what is wholesome.) Metta, Victor [1] Anguttara Nikaya II.19 Kusala Sutta Skillful http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an02-019.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > Dhammapada 183: > > Not to do evil, to cultivate merit, to purify one's mind .... > > How to purify one's mind? How to eliminate greed,hatred and delusion? > Aren't we born with it? > > Thanks, > Rahula 34350 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 0:06pm Subject: Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Nori and all, Let me first copy this passage from Samyutta Nikaya I.38 Sakalika Sutta The Stone Sliver Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-038.html I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha at the Maddakucchi Deer Reserve. Now at that time his foot had been pierced by a stone sliver. Excruciating were the bodily feelings that developed within him -- painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable -- but he endured them mindful, alert, & unperturbed. Having had his outer robe folded in four and laid out, he lay down on his right side in the lion's posture, with one foot placed on top of the other, mindful & alert. In this discourse, it is said that at one time the Buddha's foot was pierced by a stone sliver, and the bodily feelings that developed within him were excruciating -- painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable. However, the Buddha endured these feelings mindful, alert, & unperturbed. In another discourse, Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.6 Sallatha Sutta The Arrow http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-006.html we have the following passage: The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pains of two arrows. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, physical & mental. "As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is resistant. Any resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he delights in sensual pleasure. So one could say that when touched with a feeling of pain, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person reacts; i.e., he is resistant: he sorrows, grieves, & laments, beats his breast, becomes distraught. And thus he feels two pains, physical & mental. On the other hand, "Now, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones, when touched with a feeling of pain, does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. So he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow and, right afterward, did not shoot him with another one, so that he would feel the pain of only one arrow. In the same way, when touched with a feeling of pain, the well-instructed disciple of the noble ones does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. He feels one pain: physical, but not mental. "As he is touched by that painful feeling, he is not resistant. No resistance-obsession with regard to that painful feeling obsesses him. Touched by that painful feeling, he does not delight in sensual pleasure. One could say that when touched with a feeling of pain, the well- instructed disciple of the noble ones does not react; i.e., he is not resistant: he does not sorrow, grieve, or lament, does not beat his breast or become distraught. Thus he feels one pain: physical, but not mental. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "norakat147" wrote: > One of the things I have realized in my practice of self observation > is this: > > Pleasure and Pain is not the result of sensations in-and-of > themselves. > > Pleasure and Pain is the result of a reaction due to ones mental > disposition (or mental formation) and bodily disposition (or bodily > formation). [snip] > Once again, the Pleasure or Pain is the result of a reaction due to > ones mental disposition (or mental formation) NOT - due to the sun, > or the sensations caused by the sun in-and-of-itself. Even the > sensation of being stabbed in the arm, while being a sharp and > intense sensation, in-and-of-itself, is not pain/suffering. It is > ones reaction in the form of aversion that is suffering. > > Depending on the level of aversion or `liking' one can develop > towards the object, the sensations caused on the body by the object > in-and-of-itself can be, and is in most cases, dwarfed by the > overwhelming sensations created by the reaction due to aversion > or `liking'. > > And so one can say in a sense: Ultimately, nothing in this world is > the cause of our suffering, we are the cause of our own suffering. > > > With Metta, > nori 34351 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 0:42pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Ken, I'm not completely sure, but it feels like you interpreted my post as an attack on members of this group. It was not intended as such although I admit I could have re-worded some things. While, like you, I have not even begun to learn to crawl on this Dhamma path, I am still quite the dhamma-snob. Forgive me. :-) *********************************************** -------------------- B: > Claiming anatta and realizing anatta are very different. One requires some reading and conjecture, the other does indeed require the "formal meditation" that we loath so much. > ------------------- > KH: I'll be interested in seeing any Tipitaka references to formal > meditation, but I don't think there are any. Mind you, we have to > agree on the meaning of formal meditation and that could require a > lot of discussion. ********************************************* B: Please forgive my ignorance. I had no idea there was any dispute as to the usefulness of meditation as a tool for liberation; nor of Buddha's predilection for it. But please, no discussion is needed. I am not capable of convincing you of the utility of a particular practice, nor can I positively designate a particular activity as qualifying 'meditation' (hence the double quotes around "formal meditation"); although I probably could point out several activities listed in the Tipitaka as conducive to the cultivation of insight. Perhaps that will please you. In all honesty, I cannot fully see the utility in studying the Abhidhamma or the Commentaries nor how such study relates to the ending of suffering. That is why I joined DSG in the first place; to see what others have to say about it. Perhaps we are both limited in our understanding of proper practice. This is why I value this group. So many different propensities and accumulations, and yet there's a skillfull practice for each of us. ********************************************** -------------------- B: > I am not disagreeing with Rob's claim about sati. Truly mindfulness is not dependent on vipassana, but I have yet to meet or hear of someone having any real development of sati without regularly practicing some sort of satipatthana. > ------------------- > KH: I think you'll find that vipassana is a moment of consciousness > in which something ultimately real is experienced by the mental > factor, panna (right understanding). It should not be confused with > any conventional activity such as formal meditation. Nor does it > require formal meditation to bring it about. ***************************************** You are referring to conditional relations in which mental states come about through causes and conditions without any need for the actions of a self. I'm familiar with the model. I guess I'm more interested in experiencing what the model refers to rather than dissecting the very structure and make up of the model. I am so unlearned in this way. Please forgive me. On the other hand, if anyone wanted to see a good example of what happens when we debate, argue, deduce, analyze and systematize the teachings of the Buddha for a thousand years after the man who initially uttered them left this world, they should look at Zen. With its contempt for conceptual rhetoric and direct approach to practice, I wonder what kinds of complex and labyrinthine ideologies Zen practicioners were so fed up with that they felt the need to do away with them altogether. While personally I am not adverse to learning or even utilizing concepts to break free of concepts, I can appreciate the avoidance of fundamentalist pedantry by the Zen school (keep in mind, the mahayana canon is several volumes larger than that of the theravadin schools). I have a great affinnity for early Buddhism and its modern revival in the Kammatthana tradition, but I also admittedly have a fierce disdain for the sophistry I see in some dissemination of doctrine. Things that sound logical, yet when put into practice turn out to be dead ends or even worse, dangerous side routes. This is why my arguments seem to lean in the direction of practice rather than intellection or debate. I admit I have a great deal of opinions about what constitutes skillfull practice. If there indeed is a way to the ending of suffering through studying and recollecting on the terms and categories of the Abhidhamma, I hope by joining DSG, that path will soon become clear to me. **************************************** B: > Furthermore, I may be misinterpreting the point, but I do not understand the Ven. Bhikku Bodhi's attempt to show that enlightenment is possible without jnanas. Is samattha really that painful? > KH: Well, enlightenment is a kind of jhana (a supramundane kind). > But it does not require the prior development of jhana. It is true > that the Buddha and many of his disciples developed mundane jhana > prior to enlightenment but there were good reasons for that, and > those reasons do not apply to everyone. **************************************** B: Again, living in the west has forced me to throw out any statement that begins with the phrase "enlightenment is" out the window. However, I think I see where I made an error. The ending of effluents does indeed require a great deal of concentration, however not necessarily the level of concentration that would qualify as jnana. Thank you again for the clarification. **************************************** B: Also, satipatthana meditation does not lead to "dry insight" as Ven. Bodhi claims. > KH: By the definition of dry insight, satipatthana, in a person who > has not developed the mundane jhanas, does lead to dry insight > (enlightenment without mundane jhanas). B: > Any degree of developed sati by its very nature has concentration as its co-requisite. > KH: Yes, in fact concentration always arises in all types of > consciousness, even in unwholesome consciousness. Right > concentration co-arises with right mindfulness and with right > understanding and the other right mental factors. And, may I add, > the suttas tell us that right understanding comes first - in the > sense of its being the leader. That is why we study Dhamma - to > develop right understanding. In a moment of right understanding, > right concentration arises immediately, by conditions. *************************************************** B: Again, you are refering to concentration as a mental factor. I am talking about concentration conventionally as a developed faculty. I don't believe anyone in this group has realized paramattha dhamma and therefore limit my discussion to conceptual truths. If our vocabulary is out of synch, it is only because I am unfamiliar with the the definitions and terms in the Abhidhamma. Thank you for correcting my understanding. I do have some uneasiness with the translation of panna as right understanding. Sometimes it seems as if it is being used as meaning right knowledge (of doctrine), and I don't think that is correct. The dhamma is not exclusive to intellectuals. Perhaps you could clarify this for me. ****************************************************** > B: In other words, remembering to be mindful of an object over and over and over again, to the point where one has continuous sati, necessitates an equivalent degree of concentration. Again, I'm open to clarification. > KH: Here, I suspect you are talking about formal meditation - > something the Buddha never taught (IMHO). ****************************************************** B: See my response to a previous statement above regarding "formal meditation." Thats not what I was talking about here, but I feel now it deserves some attention. What is your justification for your opinion? Do you just not like the word 'meditation' or do you really believe that the statement "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore" refers to something other than the activity of 'meditation' as the term is commonly understood? This is not an attack, I am just interested in your reasoning. ******************************************************** ----------------- >B: Forgive my oversimplification. I read these posts with great enthusiasm every day, but sometimes I feel as if they are going in circles. I'm reminded of the Sabba Sutta (SN XXXV.23): "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. ---------------------- > KH: This is possibly my favourite sutta, but I don't like the > translation, "intellect and ideas." It suggests that concepts are > part of the all, which they are not. "Mind and mental phenomena" is > a better translation. ***************************************************** B: By saying concepts are not part of the all you are attempting to posit an other. All is all and any other is included in the all. I'm sure you are refering to some commentary or sutta that defines conceptual thinking as a mental state/factor/illusion that is separate from the senses and therefore not part of the all as defined above. That, IMHO, is missing the point. ******************************************************* ----------------------- <. . . > B: > I'm reminded of this sutta because when we discuss the details of Abidhamma or cittas or cetasikas, we are still working within the confines of this "all." We are so used to the word "all" meaning everything we can think of;the planet; civilization; all the atoms, molecules, and energies of the universe. But let us try and challenge the Buddha. What is there that is outside of the eye & forms, the ear & sounds, the nose & aromas, the tongue & flavors, the body & tactile sensations, and the intellect & ideas? If you say Nibbana, you've already made an error. ---------------------- > KH: Nothing we experience (or can experience) is outside the "all." > Nibbana, as you say, is within the "all." It is included as one of > the mental phenomena (wrongly translated above as "ideas"). ************************************************************ B: You misread me. Nibbana, being unconditioned, is not within the realm of experience, although the idea of it is an experience subject to the laws of conditionality. If what you say is how it is elucidated in the Abhidhamma, I must respectfully disagree with the Abhidhamma. ************************************************************ -------------- B: > So where is the citta? the rupa? the jnana? the sati? the cetasika? I tell you they are nowhere but in your own mind. They are not "ultimate realities" any more than car, tree, sky, red, green, true, false, up or down are ultimate realities. These are empty words. Reality by its very nature gives us nothing to hang onto. In the present moment there is no room for citta or rupa. That is why we call them citta and rupa. Skillfull means. ------------- > KH: Maybe so, Binnatta, but, if (IF) I understand you correctly, you > are asserting something that is contrary to the Buddhadhamma as > preserved in the Pali Canon. That is the teaching I am most > interested in. If you are right, I am in trouble. :-) *********************************************************** "There is the case where the man, having crossed over, would think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! For it was in dependence on this raft that, making an effort with my hands & feet, I have crossed over to safety on the further shore. Why don't I, having dragged it on dry land or sinking it in the water, go wherever I like?' In doing this, he would be doing what should be done with the raft. In the same way, monks, I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas." - MN 22 ************************************************************** --------------------------- > B: Friends, I am not criticizing the delineation of the paramatta- dhammas or the usefulness of the abidhamma-pitaka or its commentaries. I am criticizing the potential dangers in trying to analyze them conceptually. And make no mistake, these are just concepts. The Buddha knows how easy it is to become lost in the realm of the intellect & ideas. Perhaps the commentator Buddhaghosa had enough time and merit to master both meditation and his scholarly pursuits, we will never know. I am sure, however, that I have neither the time nor the accumulated merit to do the same. Therefore, the best this non-person can do is to sit on a non- cushion and practice not-practicing. ---------------- KH: While you are there, ask yourself (or your non-self); "Could I or could I not practise in this way without having heard the Dhamma?" ******************************************************* B: We are treading on dangerous ground here. This could lead into a whole conversation about whether what is contained in the present Tipitaka and commentaries is the same Dhamma referred to by the Buddha in those very texts. If it is not, then my answer to your question is an enthusiastic yes because the Dhamma is not dependent on the written word. If it is the same, then absolutely could I not have found practice without it. But please, lets not go there. *********************************************************** > Ken: Before any Tathagata can begin propound his teaching, the thought > always occurs to him; "Surely it would be a waste of time to teach > this Dhamma, it is too difficult for any worldling to understand." > If it is so difficult as to make a Tathagata think that way, you and > I cannot begin to imagine how difficult it is. So let's not have any > more talk about "Just doing it!" :-) ************************************************************** B: Indeed, talk of doing it is not really doing it. May you be free from trouble, and happy beyond comprehension. Bhinnatta 34352 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 1:19pm Subject: Kamma Sutta Udana III.1 Kamma Sutta Action Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. Read an alternate translation by John D. Ireland --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi, in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Now at that time a certain monk was sitting not far from the Blessed One, his legs crossed, his body held erect, enduring sharp, piercing, racking pains that were the result of old kamma -- mindful, alert, without suffering. The Blessed One saw him sitting not far away, his legs crossed, his body held erect, enduring sharp, piercing, racking pains that were the result of old kamma -- mindful, alert, without suffering. Then, on realizing the significance of that, the Blessed One on that occasion exclaimed: For the monk who has left all kamma behind, shaking off the dust of the past, steady, without longing, Such*: there's no point in telling anyone else. (*tadi) --------------------------------------------------------------------- ----------- Revised: Sun 19-Oct-2003 http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud3-01.html 34353 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 4:47pm Subject: Paramatthaka Sutta Hi everyone, This is what the Buddha had to say about paramattha anythings. "A person who associates himself with certain views, considering them as best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of that, that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and in ritual observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by laying hold of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those skilled (in judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, one regards everything else as inferior. Therefore a bhikkhu should not depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual observances. He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to be inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non-becoming, here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be identified in the world? "They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on views." -- vv. 796-803 taken from http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4-05a .html Savour the flavour Herman 34354 From: Philip Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:11pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice H Bhinnattha, and all. You bring up a lot of good points Binnattha. Only time for a couple of quick comments. B: > If there > indeed is a way to the ending of suffering through studying and recollecting > on the terms and categories of the Abhidhamma, I hope by joining DSG, that > path will soon become clear to me. Ph: Studying the terms is just the tip of the iceberg. What happens on this message board is just the tip of the iceberg. The real practice is in daily life. Since we are not able to look into the minds of our friends here as they go through daily life, there is no way to know to what degree their study and the discussion here is bearing fruit in insight in daily life. We shouldn't mistake the tip of the iceberg for what lies beneath. So if the value of Abdhidhamma becomes clear to us, it won't be here at DSG it will be by examining realities in our daily life. We shouldn't look for an understanding of the value of Abdhidhamma though other people's messages here. That having been said, I'll go ahead and say why this beginner thinks Abdhidhamma is important. Personally, it seems clear to me at this point - thought it's early - that understanding the mind and making progress towards the liberation from suffering without the Abhidhamma would be like trying to be a surgeon without having an anatomy textbook. Reading suttas would be like reading case studies. They contain references to anatomy, of course, but without a fundamental knowledge of the anatomy, the references to anatomy in patients' case studies would not be of much use and might lead to malpractice. Meditating without a knowledge of Abdhidhamma would seem like a surgeon just going on in and seeing what happens, with an even greater probability of malpractice. I'm sure we all know how many beginning meditators go merrily down the wrong path - not that I'm intending to put you in that boat. I'm referring to the way I started meditation last year without any knowledge of nama and rupa. I was just playing with calmness. I want to know about Abhidhamma before I begin serious study of suttas or meditation because it seems to me that it contains the detailed description of the mind (the anatomy, if you will) that we will need to heal it and gain liberation. That seems very clear to me, but, as I said, it's still early. Metta, Phil 34355 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 5:20pm Subject: Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hi Herman and all, I think this discourse is a relevant reminder for abandoning the view of paramattha dhamma, namely: This is ultimate, that is just a concept/paññatti. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi everyone, > > This is what the Buddha had to say about paramattha anythings. > > "A person who associates himself with certain views, considering them as > best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of that, > that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from > contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and in ritual > observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by laying hold > of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those skilled (in > judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, one > regards everything else as inferior. Therefore a bhikkhu should not > depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual observances. > He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to be > inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had > (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a > support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly not > one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. In whom > there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non- becoming, > here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed > viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). Concerning > the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least notion. > That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he be > identified in the world? > > "They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not > accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back on > views." > > -- vv. 796-803 > > taken from > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4- 05a > .html > > > Savour the flavour > > > Herman 34356 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 6:02pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Phil and all, What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught about the detailed description of the mind? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > H Bhinnattha, and all. > > You bring up a lot of good points Binnattha. Only time for a couple > of quick comments. > > B: > If there > > indeed is a way to the ending of suffering through studying and > recollecting > > on the terms and categories of the Abhidhamma, I hope by joining > DSG, that > > path will soon become clear to me. > > Ph: Studying the terms is just the tip of the iceberg. What happens > on this message board is just the tip of the iceberg. The real > practice is in daily life. Since we are not able to look into the > minds of our friends here as they go through daily life, there is no > way to know to what degree their study and the discussion here is > bearing fruit in insight in daily life. We shouldn't mistake the tip > of the iceberg for what lies beneath. So if the value of Abdhidhamma > becomes clear to us, it won't be here at DSG it will be by examining > realities in our daily life. We shouldn't look for an understanding > of the value of Abdhidhamma though other people's messages here. > > That having been said, I'll go ahead and say why this beginner > thinks Abdhidhamma is important. > > Personally, it seems clear to me at this point - thought it's > early - that understanding the mind and making progress towards the > liberation from suffering without the Abhidhamma would be like trying > to be a surgeon without having an anatomy textbook. Reading suttas > would be like reading case studies. They contain references to > anatomy, of course, but without a fundamental knowledge of the > anatomy, the references to anatomy in patients' case studies would > not be of much use and might lead to malpractice. Meditating without > a knowledge of Abdhidhamma would seem like a surgeon just going on in > and seeing what happens, with an even greater probability of > malpractice. I'm sure we all know how many beginning meditators go > merrily down the wrong path - not that I'm intending to put you in > that boat. I'm referring to the way I started meditation last year > without any knowledge of nama and rupa. I was just playing with > calmness. > > I want to know about Abhidhamma before I begin serious study of > suttas or meditation because it seems to me that it contains the > detailed description of the mind (the anatomy, if you will) that we > will need to heal it and gain liberation. That seems very clear to > me, but, as I said, it's still early. > > Metta, > Phil 34357 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Jul 2, 2004 7:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Dear Nina, I don't have a computor at home anymore, it crashed and now I use the internet cafe, so have been listening to tapes more than reading and I find them very helpful. Thank you again for all your hard work at the 'Dhamma Desk'. Something I read in this reply you made to Rob M and Tzung Kuen, was a condition for me to think about patience. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M and Tzung Kuen, > op 29-06-2004 04:33 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...:> > > The bhavanga citta is not a paramattha dhamma. ......snip....... We should not have any expectations, it all depends on the > accumulated pañña what will be known. It does not matter. As Acharn Sujin would say 'don't go away from the present moment', and I feel it takes a great deal of patience to 'accept' this present moment. So often we are thinking ahead, thinking behind, the sea of concepts. Of course, we can be aware of thinking as just another reality, if conditions are right. > , reflection on realities is a kind of meditation, > reflection on a sutta is meditation. This is fine. When I write an intro to > Vis. this is a kind of meditation. But I would not set a certain time or > limit the time to be aware of any dhamma appearing in daily life. this is a type of wrong view, is it not? if we think we can set aside time to be aware. They are > everywhere, not just in a special place or at a certain time. Hardness here, > hardness there, just the same. They appear naturally, just as they are. But > people are afraid to be distracted in daily life. I think we forget that distraction is real, often its just bad feeling and that's what we want to get away from - well, in my case anyway. I would say: do not worry, > you will see for yourself what happens when you do not restrict awareness, > but just let sati arise because of its own conditions, in its own time. > And to know each citta, cetasika, rupa, of past, present, future: we are not > the Buddha. If someone believes he can it may be only thinking. Who can > tell? But we should not say it is impossible to know heartbase or > bhavangacitta. They are realities, and it depends on a person's accumulated > pañña what can be realized. > Nina. > P.S. I cannot continue this interesting thread now, going away tomorrow for > four days. Thus, next week. Have a nice time away Nina. Don't go falling in any rivers or anything like that:) Greetings to Lodewijk. Patience, courage and good cheer. Azita 34358 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 0:04am Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hello Victor, Phil, all, The Buddha taught Suffering (Dukkha), the Arising of Suffering (Samudaya), the Cessation of Suffering (Nirodha) and the Way leading to the Cessation of Suffering (Magga). He also taught in the very first verse of the Dhammapada: "Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind- made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, because of that, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of the draught-ox." So, yes, the Blessed One taught us to study and try to understand just what this mind is. Otherwise there is a risk that we will take the consciousness as Self or the Self as something that stands behind consciousness, and miss the truth of Anatta. Here is one sutta where He indicated it was important to study the mind (mano, citta, vinnana). "In the Book of Causation (Nidaanavagga) VII The Great Subchapter 61 (1) Uninstructed (1) p. 595 Samyutta Nikaya Vol 1 (Bodhi) "Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at Saavatthii in Jeta's Grove, Anaathapindika's Park .... "Bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling might experience revulsion towards this body composed of the four great elements; he might become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because growth and decline is seen in this body composed of the four great elements, it is seen being taken up and laid aside. Therefore the uninstructed worldling might experience revulsion towards this body composed of the four great elements; he might become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. "But, bhikkhus, as to that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' and 'consciousness' - the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because for a long time this has been held to by him, appropriated, and grasped thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self.' Therefore the uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. "It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worldling to take as self this body composed of the four great elements rather than the mind. For what reason? Because this body composed of the four great elements is seen standing for one year, for two years, for three, four, five, or ten years, for twenty, thirty, forty, or fifty years, for a hundred years, or even longer. But that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' and consciousness' arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. Just as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grabs still another, so too that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' and 'consciousness' arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. [note 157] "Therein, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple attends closely and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: 'When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the cessation of this, that ceases. That is, with ignorance as condition, volitional formations [come to be]; with volitional formations as condition, consciousness .... Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; with the cessation of volitional formations, cessation of consciousness .... Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering. "Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences revulsion towards form, revulsion towards feeling, revulsion towards perception, revulsion towards volitional formations, revulsion towards consciousness. Experiencing revulsion, he becomes dispassionate. Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated. When it is liberated there comes the knowledge: "It's liberated.' He understands: 'Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of being.'" [note 157: Spk: 'By day and by night (rattiyaa ca divasassa ca): This is a genitive in the locative sense, i.e., during the night and during the day. Arises as one thing and ceases as another (annadeva uppajjati, anna.m nirujjhati): The meaning is that (the mind) that arises and ceases during the day is other than (the mind) that arises and ceases during the night. The statement should not be taken to mean that one thing arises and some thing altogether different, which had not arisen, ceases. "Day and night" is said by way of continuity, taking a continuity of lesser duration than the previous one (i.e. the one stated for the body). But one citta is not able to endure for a whole day or a whole night. Even in the time of a fingersnap many hundred thousand kotis of cittas arise and cease (1 koti=10 million). The simile of the monkey should be understood thus: The "grove of objects" is like the forest grove. The mind arising in the grove of objects is like the monkey wandering in the forest grove. The mind's taking hold of an object is like the monkey grabbing hold of a branch. Just as the monkey, roaming through the forest, leaves behind one branch and grabs hold of another, so the mind, roaming through the grove of objects, arises sometimes grasping hold of a visible object, sometimes a sound, sometimes the past, sometimes the present or future, sometimes an internal object, sometimes an external object. When the monkey does not find a (new) branch it does not descend and sit on the ground, but sits holding to a single leafy branch. So too, when the mind is roaming through the grove of objects, it cannot be said that it arises without holding to an object; rather it arises holding to an object of a single kind. It should be noted that neither the sutta nor the commentary interprets the monkey simile here as saying that the untrained mind is as restless as a monkey; the point, rather, is that the mind is always dependent on an object.] Lovely to see you posting again Victor - missed you. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Phil and all, > > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught about > the detailed description of the mind? > > Metta, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" 34359 From: nori Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 0:30am Subject: Re: Purify one's mind Hi Rahula, I don't know if we are 'born' with greed and hatred, but it certainly seems that we are (speaking for myself at least) destined later in life to have within us these qualities. I think the best way to purify ones mind is to observe in yourself how greed, hatred and delusion causes you suffering, and you will naturally begin to do what feels right for yourself, which is not to have greed and hatred. It is in ignorance that we continue to have greed and hatred, causing ourselves pain, since we know no better. The more we experience the causes and effects of greed and hatred within ourselves, the more we dispell our ignorance. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rahula_80" wrote: > Hi, > > Dhammapada 183: > > Not to do evil, to cultivate merit, to purify one's mind .... > > How to purify one's mind? How to eliminate greed,hatred and delusion? > Aren't we born with it? > > Thanks, > Rahula 34360 From: nori Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 2:02am Subject: On Right Livelihood; Then and Now; a point that can be easily overlooked Hi all, It is obvious from reading the details `of mere morality' in the Brahma-gala Sutta, in Digha Nikaya that many of the modes of livelihood mentioned were written, not as a general guide or rule for all ages, but addressing, specifically, the many wrong means of livelihood that were prevalent at the time. For example, some wrong means of livelihood mentioned: 21-14 `Sacrificing by spewing mustard seeds, &c., into the fire out of ones's mouth.' 21-15 `Drawing blood out of one's right knee as a sacrifice to the gods.' I could imagine somebody reading this list and saying to his/herself: `well let's see, I don't do that, that and that for a living so my livelihood must be OK.' Or I could imagine other people going further from these specific occupations, and making general rules such as: `well I am not in an occupation that deals with the killing of animals, etc. so my livelihood must be OK.' Now, the following, is, of course, only my opinion, but in this modern world of mega-corporations run by board members, there are wrong means of livelihood that can be easily overlooked. I think in general, working for any company that is run by those who are greedy, dishonest, hateful, or create suffering for the world is a bad livelihood. Working for them, you are participating in accomplishing their agenda. The dire consequence for participating in such a company is that you have to work and be in their presence, those that are un-beloved. Arrrrrgggggghhhhh !! Those that run the company set the atmosphere of it; their greed, dishonesty, hate, or general disregard for society trickles down from the controlling board members, to managers, to lower managers, and to peers. It spreads like a plague. There is much downside for being in the presence of those that are un-beloved: You suffer from their presence; they encourage unskillful behavior, they mock skillful behavior; you live battling their influence, you live in the 'field' of their kamma, in the presence of their sorrows. with metta, nori 34361 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 2:10am Subject: Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hello Herman, Victor, all, Do you think it is possible that you are confusing two similar words? When we are speaking of Ultimate Realities the Pali word is: paramattha : [m.] the highest ideal; truth in the ultimate sense. I think the word in the title of this sutta - the Paramatthaka Sutta - comes from paraamattha (pp. of paraamasati) which means touched; held on to; was attached; caressed. Reading the sutta in both translations by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and by John Ireland, I think it is refering to clinging to views - not, I think, in any way to ultimate realities. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Herman and all, > > I think this discourse is a relevant reminder for abandoning the > view of paramattha dhamma, namely: This is ultimate, that is just a > concept/paññatti. > > Metta, > Victor > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > This is what the Buddha had to say about paramattha anythings. > > > > "A person who associates himself with certain views, considering > them as > > best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of > that, > > that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from > > contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and in > ritual > > observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by > laying hold > > of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those > skilled (in > > judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, > one > > regards everything else as inferior. Therefore a bhikkhu should not > > depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual > observances. > > He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to > be > > inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had > > (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a > > support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly > not > > one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. > In whom > > there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non- > becoming, > > here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed > > viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). > Concerning > > the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least > notion. > > That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he > be > > identified in the world? > > > > "They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not > > accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back > on > > views." > > > > -- vv. 796-803 > > > > taken from > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4- > 05a > > .html > > > > > > Savour the flavour > > > > > > Herman 34362 From: Philip Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 3:16am Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Victor, and all > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught about > the detailed description of the mind? Ph: The Buddha taught a way to liberation. And a very explicit one, it seems to this beginner. One of the three division of the Buddha's teaching is the Abhidhamma which from the little I understand can be described as a detailed description of not only mind but matter as well. It seems logical to me to begin by understanding as thoroughly as possible the nature of mind and matter before learning the practices that lead to liberation. Just like I would want to be familiar with all the parts of an engine before I started to repair it. I know this is a simplistic way of looking at things, but unless I have completely misunderstood what Abhidhamma is about (quite possible!) it seems a sensible way to go about Dhamma study. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Phil and all, > > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught about > the detailed description of the mind? > > Metta, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > H Bhinnattha, and all. > > > > You bring up a lot of good points Binnattha. Only time for a > couple > > of quick comments. > > > > B: > If there > > > indeed is a way to the ending of suffering through studying and > > recollecting > > > on the terms and categories of the Abhidhamma, I hope by joining > > DSG, that > > > path will soon become clear to me. > > > > Ph: Studying the terms is just the tip of the iceberg. What > happens > > on this message board is just the tip of the iceberg. The real > > practice is in daily life. Since we are not able to look into the > > minds of our friends here as they go through daily life, there is > no > > way to know to what degree their study and the discussion here is > > bearing fruit in insight in daily life. We shouldn't mistake the > tip > > of the iceberg for what lies beneath. So if the value of > Abdhidhamma > > becomes clear to us, it won't be here at DSG it will be by > examining > > realities in our daily life. We shouldn't look for an > understanding > > of the value of Abdhidhamma though other people's messages here. > > > > That having been said, I'll go ahead and say why this beginner > > thinks Abdhidhamma is important. > > > > Personally, it seems clear to me at this point - thought it's > > early - that understanding the mind and making progress towards > the > > liberation from suffering without the Abhidhamma would be like > trying > > to be a surgeon without having an anatomy textbook. Reading suttas > > would be like reading case studies. They contain references to > > anatomy, of course, but without a fundamental knowledge of the > > anatomy, the references to anatomy in patients' case studies > would > > not be of much use and might lead to malpractice. Meditating > without > > a knowledge of Abdhidhamma would seem like a surgeon just going on > in > > and seeing what happens, with an even greater probability of > > malpractice. I'm sure we all know how many beginning meditators go > > merrily down the wrong path - not that I'm intending to put you in > > that boat. I'm referring to the way I started meditation last year > > without any knowledge of nama and rupa. I was just playing with > > calmness. > > > > I want to know about Abhidhamma before I begin serious study of > > suttas or meditation because it seems to me that it contains the > > detailed description of the mind (the anatomy, if you will) that > we > > will need to heal it and gain liberation. That seems very clear to > > me, but, as I said, it's still early. > > > > Metta, > > Phil 34363 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 3:31am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hi Christine, I defer to your superior knowledge of Pali :-) I thought I was on the right track because of the notion of the clung-to view being a supreme view. Oh well, another idea bites the dust :-) Catch you later Herman -----Original Message----- From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Sent: Saturday, 3 July 2004 7:10 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hello Herman, Victor, all, Do you think it is possible that you are confusing two similar words? When we are speaking of Ultimate Realities the Pali word is: paramattha : [m.] the highest ideal; truth in the ultimate sense. I think the word in the title of this sutta - the Paramatthaka Sutta - comes from paraamattha (pp. of paraamasati) which means touched; held on to; was attached; caressed. Reading the sutta in both translations by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and by John Ireland, I think it is refering to clinging to views - not, I think, in any way to ultimate realities. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Herman and all, > > I think this discourse is a relevant reminder for abandoning the > view of paramattha dhamma, namely: This is ultimate, that is just a > concept/paññatti. > > Metta, > Victor > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > wrote: > > Hi everyone, > > > > This is what the Buddha had to say about paramattha anythings. > > > > "A person who associates himself with certain views, considering > them as > > best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of > that, > > that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from > > contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and in > ritual > > observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by > laying hold > > of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those > skilled (in > > judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, > one > > regards everything else as inferior. Therefore a bhikkhu should not > > depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual > observances. > > He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself to > be > > inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had > > (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a > > support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is certainly > not > > one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. > In whom > > there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non- > becoming, > > here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a fixed > > viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). > Concerning > > the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least > notion. > > That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could he > be > > identified in the world? > > > > "They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not > > accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall back > on > > views." > > > > -- vv. 796-803 > > > > taken from > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4- > 05a > > .html > > > > > > Savour the flavour > > > > > > Herman 34364 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 3:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Phil, Would you say that it is sensible to get to know everything about tobacco, about human physiology, about cigarette manufacturers and their brands before one attempts to give up smoking? Catch you later Herman -----Original Message----- From: Philip [mailto:plnao@j...] Sent: Saturday, 3 July 2004 8:16 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Victor, and all > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught about > the detailed description of the mind? Ph: The Buddha taught a way to liberation. And a very explicit one, it seems to this beginner. One of the three division of the Buddha's teaching is the Abhidhamma which from the little I understand can be described as a detailed description of not only mind but matter as well. It seems logical to me to begin by understanding as thoroughly as possible the nature of mind and matter before learning the practices that lead to liberation. Just like I would want to be familiar with all the parts of an engine before I started to repair it. I know this is a simplistic way of looking at things, but unless I have completely misunderstood what Abhidhamma is about (quite possible!) it seems a sensible way to go about Dhamma study. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Phil and all, > > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught about > the detailed description of the mind? > > Metta, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > H Bhinnattha, and all. > > > > You bring up a lot of good points Binnattha. Only time for a > couple > > of quick comments. > > > > B: > If there > > > indeed is a way to the ending of suffering through studying and > > recollecting > > > on the terms and categories of the Abhidhamma, I hope by joining > > DSG, that > > > path will soon become clear to me. > > > > Ph: Studying the terms is just the tip of the iceberg. What > happens > > on this message board is just the tip of the iceberg. The real > > practice is in daily life. Since we are not able to look into the > > minds of our friends here as they go through daily life, there is > no > > way to know to what degree their study and the discussion here is > > bearing fruit in insight in daily life. We shouldn't mistake the > tip > > of the iceberg for what lies beneath. So if the value of > Abdhidhamma > > becomes clear to us, it won't be here at DSG it will be by > examining > > realities in our daily life. We shouldn't look for an > understanding > > of the value of Abdhidhamma though other people's messages here. > > > > That having been said, I'll go ahead and say why this beginner > > thinks Abdhidhamma is important. > > > > Personally, it seems clear to me at this point - thought it's > > early - that understanding the mind and making progress towards > the > > liberation from suffering without the Abhidhamma would be like > trying > > to be a surgeon without having an anatomy textbook. Reading suttas > > would be like reading case studies. They contain references to > > anatomy, of course, but without a fundamental knowledge of the > > anatomy, the references to anatomy in patients' case studies > would > > not be of much use and might lead to malpractice. Meditating > without > > a knowledge of Abdhidhamma would seem like a surgeon just going on > in > > and seeing what happens, with an even greater probability of > > malpractice. I'm sure we all know how many beginning meditators go > > merrily down the wrong path - not that I'm intending to put you in > > that boat. I'm referring to the way I started meditation last year > > without any knowledge of nama and rupa. I was just playing with > > calmness. > > > > I want to know about Abhidhamma before I begin serious study of > > suttas or meditation because it seems to me that it contains the > > detailed description of the mind (the anatomy, if you will) that > we > > will need to heal it and gain liberation. That seems very clear to > > me, but, as I said, it's still early. > > > > Metta, > > Phil 34365 From: Philip Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 4:18am Subject: Talk with Rob K conclusion Hello all, Before we turned off the tape recorder, our last topic was broached by a sutta that I had been impressed by, the Khanda Vagga Sutta. Here is the passage that I referred to: "Just as a dog, tied by a leash to a post or stake, keeps running around and circling around that very post or stake; in the same way, an uninstructed, run-of-the-mill person -- who has no regard for noble ones, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma; who has no regard for people of integrity, is not well-versed or disciplined in their Dhamma -- assumes form to be the self, or the self as possessing form, or form as in the self, or the self as in form. "He assumes feeling to be the self... etc..." Phil: I found this through reading your posts, this sutta. I found I have a very affectionate feeling towards people and I think understand the three characteristics - to the limited degree I have - has only deepened it, because it has removed ill-will and hostility. And I have this affection for people. And I think this image of people running around - and I think that's why when I came to the airport I was moved. (note - I was moved to tears for some reason when I arrived at the airport to meet Rob K - I've always loved airports.) There's this sense of the way people rush around - the way I do, the way we all do. It's a very compassionate image. Rob K: Wherever you go, whether it's left or right, you're stuck on this post of self. It's very hard to break away from that. You can go in the mountains and live in a cave for 20 years but if there's not the understanding of the present moment, the conditioned reality, you'll still be stuck in self. Another dog simile - you might have read it - every other teacher, every other religious teacher, they teach how to teach the symptom of the disease, but the Buddha teaches how to eradicate the cause. And the cause is self-view. And it's like a dog, when you throw a stick at it, it snarls, and it bites the stick. But the lion brushes the stick aside and goes for the man. And this is the difference. ----- We talked some more after turning the tape recorder off. Taking a look at some things I jotted down, I see we talked about the value of reminding others of their good deeds. How good deeds were listed to kings on their deathbeds. We talked about Zen - I mentionned that coming across Abhidhamma had given me a new appreciation for Zen, because of the stress on direct experience of realities. He agreed, and recommended books by a woman named Toni Packer. I talked about my unwholesome interest in the news, and he said that while George Bussh might be the object for my ill-will, it is the ill-will that is important to look at, not the object. And there was something about the importance of balancing confidence with wisdom. It was indeed a very fruitful discussion. I'll enjoy listening to the tape again. There is also lovely piano music in the bacground, and the occasional appearance of a waitress bringing us iced coffee. Many thanks to Rob K for his time - I'll always remember that bit when I worried that he might be late for an appointment and he said "nothing is more important than talking about Dhamma." And the part where he said nothing is more important than Dhamma - even if it were to cost me my marriage! That's what I took away from our talk - a sense of devotion to Dhamma, to examining realities in the present moment, and that feeling has stayed with me for the month or so that has passed since we met. Metta, Phil 34366 From: Philip Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 4:45am Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Herman, H: > Would you say that it is sensible to get to know everything about > tobacco, about human physiology, about cigarette manufacturers and their > brands before one attempts to give up smoking? Ph: Hmm. I'm not sure that's a suitable comparison, not only because the danger of smoking is so evident, but also the way of liberation from smoking is so clear cut. You stop smoking. If we try to take clear cut actions for liberation from samsara (sp?) we risk fooling ourselves and getting deeper into wrong view of self. Is there anything clear cut about how to understand annata, annica and dukkha? I don't think so. It seems to me that Abhidhamma lays out a manual for beginning to understand the aggregates, for starting to get at understanding the three characteristics. Again, it's still early, but that's how it feels to me now. And it's made a huge impact on the amount of anger in my life. I used to be a chain shouter, but now I'm down to 3 or 4 &#%#s! a day. Even having an intellectual understanding of the three characteristics is so liberating. There is no one to get angry at, in the absolute sense. People are all going through life in a conditioned way. I undertand that now, and it liberates me from so much anger. I could have found that understanding elsewhere, of course, but even though I'd read about annata hundreds of times here and there over a couple of years it had never begun to have any meaning for me until I came across "Abhidhamma in Daily Life." That would not be the case for everyone. We all have conditions and accumulations that make it more or less likely that we'll respond to different aspects of the Buddha's teaching, I guess. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Phil, > > Would you say that it is sensible to get to know everything about > tobacco, about human physiology, about cigarette manufacturers and their > brands before one attempts to give up smoking? > > Catch you later > > Herman > > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Philip [mailto:plnao@j...] > Sent: Saturday, 3 July 2004 8:16 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice > > > Hi Victor, and all > > > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught > about > > the detailed description of the mind? > > Ph: The Buddha taught a way to liberation. And a very explicit one, > it seems to this beginner. One of the three division of the Buddha's > teaching is the Abhidhamma which from the little I understand can be > described as a detailed description of not only mind but matter as > well. > It seems logical to me to begin by understanding as thoroughly as > possible the nature of mind and matter before learning the practices > that lead to liberation. Just like I would want to be familiar with > all the parts of an engine before I started to repair it. I know this > is a simplistic way of looking at things, but unless I have > completely misunderstood what Abhidhamma is about (quite possible!) > it seems a sensible way to go about Dhamma study. > > Metta, > Phil 34367 From: Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 0:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi, Phil (and Victor) - In a message dated 7/3/04 6:33:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > Hi Victor, and all > > >What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught > about > >the detailed description of the mind? > > Ph: The Buddha taught a way to liberation. And a very explicit one, > it seems to this beginner. One of the three division of the Buddha's > teaching is the Abhidhamma which from the little I understand can be > described as a detailed description of not only mind but matter as > well. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Certainly the Abhidhamma goes into the fine details of all (conditioned) phenomena, both namic and rupic. I would suspect, however, that what Victor was driving at was that what is needed to be known (or, better, to be *seen*) about phenomena for the purpose of liberation is what is common to all phenomena, namely their impermanence, insubstantiality, dependent status (lack of self-sufficient existence), impersonality, and inabilty to satisfy, i.e., their tendency to lead to dissatisfaction or outright distress when craved, hated, or clung to. Now, the remainder the Dhamma consists of teachings which, when contemplated and put into practice, will lead to these liberating insights, by cultivating the mind. The Abhidhamma, lays out the teachings given in the discourses in a context-free, theoretical fashion. The Dhammasangani and the Patthana, together, do most of this. The analytic presentation of the former together with the synthetic, relational format of the latter together seem to attempt to provide a conceptual, theoretical analogue to what one may come to directly see as the fruit of vipassana (and samatha) bhavana, and, for people to whom this Abhidhammic format appeals, these can serve as a guide to practice. In order for the Abhidhamma to appeal to one, it seems to me that one must be happy with "dry detail", a trait that many people, me included, lack. Moreover, it seems to me that much important teaching material of the suttas, especially in terms of skillful means of presenation, is missing from the Abhidhamma, and, conversely, much superfluous material irrelevant to the task of liberation - and some of it questionable - is included in the Abhidhamma. In its (not fully realized) attempt at completeness, the Abhidhamma includes many leaves of the forest that are not among the useful ones held in the Buddha's hand. There is also the danger, I believe, in the detailed and manifold lists of the Abhidhamma leading people to substitute memorization of compendious lists, concepts, and definitions for the direct "watching" of phenomena as they arise, directly grasping their nature. Nina and her teacher, Khun Sujin, wisely teach not making this substitution. They emphasize "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" which, as I understand it, uses the Abhidhamma as a guide to ongoing mindful watching of dhammas as they arise and cease, displaying the tilakkhana that constitute their common nature. -------------------------------------------------------- > It seems logical to me to begin by understanding as thoroughly as > possible the nature of mind and matter before learning the practices > that lead to liberation. Just like I would want to be familiar with > all the parts of an engine before I started to repair it. I know this > is a simplistic way of looking at things, but unless I have > completely misunderstood what Abhidhamma is about (quite possible!) > it seems a sensible way to go about Dhamma study. > ------------------------------------------------------- Howard: I would strongly urge simultaneous patipatti along with your Abhidhammic pariyatti, and also not restricting your study to Abhidhamma and to popularizations thereof, but to also thoroughly study the suttas, which constitute the historical record of how the buddha actually went about instructing his followers. ---------------------------------------------------------- > > > Metta, > Phil > ============================ With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34368 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 5:51am Subject: Jhana Factors in Suttas Hi All, I just finished delivering my first of four weekly 2-hour talks on Abhidhamma. During the break, I met Lee (a DSG member) and he asked me if I was aware of any Sutta references that explicitly listed the five Jhana factors in the first Jhana. I admit that I have not spent much time studying jahanas. I am hoping that some other DSG member may have the reference handy. Metta, Rob M :-) PS: I know that I am behind on a couple of posts. 34369 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 6:45am Subject: Re: Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Hi Ken H, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Rob M, > > We were discussing whether citta and cetasika were included among > the objects of mind-door consciousness. You wrote: > ------------------- > > Bhikku Bodhi's Comprehensive Manual of Abhidhamma (p136) says: > --------------- > > That clarifies the question nicely, thanks Rob. Could it be > answered by consulting the ancient commentaries? ===== 1000 years not ancient enough for ya (that is when Acariya Anuruddha wrote the Abhidhammattasangaha)? ===== > > Without doing any research myself (as usual) I tend to think K Sujin > and her students have already done it and, if I understand them > correctly, they are of the opinion that citta and the 52 cetasikas > can be experienced at the mind door, one at a time. > > Doesn't it make sense to you when you think about it? For example, > you and I understand, reasonably well, the meaning of greed - how > could we have acquired that understanding if citta had never taken > lobha as its object? ===== Greed must always arise together with delusion, lack of fear, lack of shame and restlessness (each of these are cetasikas). Greed needs these four as a foundation to exist. Delusion blinds one to the true nature of the object and greed cannot exist without this mental blindness. Knowing that greed is unwholesome, how can greed arise without a lack of shame (of doing something unwholesom) and without a lack of fear (of the results of kamma)? With a calm and tranquil mind, one can penetrate the true nature of the object. Greed must therefore depend on the absence of calmness / tranquillity (i.e. restlessness). ===== > > Thanks also for explaining how kamma and the emotions get stronger > as the citta-vitis progressively conceptualise sensory data. I am > swayed towards your opinion (that they start weak and get stronger) > and then back to my opinion (that they start strong and get > weaker). Perhaps neither is right: perhaps the level stays constant > or it fluctuates unpredictably. > > I'm not sure how your `falling in love' questionnaire fits into the > explanation, but I'll have a go at it: > --------- > Q: > When you first fell in love (love is as strong an emotion as I > can imagine), how much of that love was really love for that person > (did you really know them that well???) versus love with the way > that you felt (love with the idea of being in love)? And when you > fell in love, was it really her eyes, her hair, etc. that prompted > those strong feelings? (sorry for getting personal, no need to > answer). > > --------------- > > According to my thesis, there was very, very strong lobha for sense > objects. Not directly knowing sense objects, my conceptualising mind > said; "What is going on here? I must be in love with [name > deleted]!" But that was only thinking. [Name deleted] was not > ultimately real, and the lobha that experienced her (if I may use > that expression) was accordingly weak - I only thought it was strong. > ===== Love is a very, very strong emotion. If we carefully consider the mental states at the time, we can see that it is concepts, not paramattha dhammas which trigger love. At least, this is the way that I remember it. I have a hard time tracing back the strong emotion to paramattha dhammas. ===== > --------------------- > KH: > > It is just my opinion, but I think that > > kamma and the other cetasikas are mainly interested in dhammas and > > we only *think* we are interested in concepts (people, places, > > situations). > > > > > RM: > Please expand on your opinion. It sounds interesting. I have > never learned anything from anybody who agreed with me. > ----------------------- > > OK, it's only a half thought-out opinion but here are two reasons > for holding it: > 1. The Dhamma repeatedly tells us that desire, aversion and > ignorance with regard to the five sense objects (dhammas) and the > mind objects (dhammas and concepts) are the cause of suffering. If > desire etc., for concepts stood out, head and shoulders above the > rest, then we would expect the Dhamma to explain it that way. ===== I go back to my "pressure on the trigger" analogy. The responses to the paramattha dhammas may be weak, but it is a critical trigger to start the conceptual process in motion. ===== > > 2. Kamma results in the experience of sense objects (dhammas). If, > as you say, kamma is directed most strongly at concepts, then > wouldn't the result of kamma be the experience of concepts, rather > than the experience of dhammas? ===== I am not aware of any rule as part of kamma condition that says that the object of the javana citta has any relation to the object of the vipaka citta. Of course, natural decisive support condition links past objects (concepts / mental states / rupa) with the current mental state. Metta, Rob M :-) 34370 From: Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 3:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/3/04 7:35:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Hi Phil, > > Would you say that it is sensible to get to know everything about > tobacco, about human physiology, about cigarette manufacturers and their > brands before one attempts to give up smoking? > > Catch you later > > Herman ====================== Well said! Far more succinct and to the point than my offering on this issue. :-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34371 From: robmoult Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 7:09am Subject: Re: Jhana Factors in Suttas Hi Lee, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "robmoult" wrote: > I just finished delivering my first of four weekly 2-hour talks on > Abhidhamma. During the break, I met Lee (a DSG member) and he asked > me if I was aware of any Sutta references that explicitly listed the > five Jhana factors in the first Jhana. > > I admit that I have not spent much time studying jahanas. I am hoping > that some other DSG member may have the reference handy. > The Mahavedalla Sutta (Mn 43, verse 19): "Friend, how many factors does the first jhana have?" "Friend, the first jhana has five factors. Here, when a bhikkhu has entered upon the first jhana, there occur applied thought, sustained thought, rapture, pleasure and unification of mind. That is how the first jhana has five factors." Lee, is this specific enough? Metta, Rob M :-) 34372 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 11:18am Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Christine and all, I will reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, Phil, all, > > The Buddha taught Suffering (Dukkha), the Arising of Suffering > (Samudaya), the Cessation of Suffering (Nirodha) and the Way leading > to the Cessation of Suffering (Magga). Yes, the Buddha taught the four Noble Truths. And in Simpasa Sutta [1], the Buddha explained why he had taught them and why he had not taught many other things that he had known with direct knowledge. > > He also taught in the very first verse of the Dhammapada: > "Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind- > made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, because of > that, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of > the draught-ox." The verse above is about right view on kamma/intention/action. > > So, yes, the Blessed One taught us to study and try to understand > just what this mind is. The Buddha taught how a monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself.[2] Psychology is the science of the mind. It can be a very fascinating field of study for some. Otherwise there is a risk that we will take > the consciousness as Self or the Self as something that stands > behind consciousness, and miss the truth of Anatta. Here is one > sutta where He indicated it was important to study the mind (mano, > citta, vinnana). > > "In the Book of Causation (Nidaanavagga) VII The Great Subchapter 61 > (1) Uninstructed (1) p. 595 Samyutta Nikaya Vol 1 (Bodhi) > "Thus have I heard. On one occasion the Blessed One was dwelling at > Saavatthii in Jeta's Grove, Anaathapindika's Park .... > "Bhikkhus, the uninstructed worldling might experience revulsion > towards this body composed of the four great elements; he might > become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. For what > reason? Because growth and decline is seen in this body composed of > the four great elements, it is seen being taken up and laid aside. > Therefore the uninstructed worldling might experience revulsion > towards this body composed of the four great elements; he might > become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. > > "But, bhikkhus, as to that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' > and 'consciousness' - the uninstructed worldling is unable to > experience revulsion towards it, unable to become dispassionate > towards it and be liberated from it. For what reason? Because for a > long time this has been held to by him, appropriated, and grasped > thus: 'This is mine, this I am, this is my self.' Therefore the > uninstructed worldling is unable to experience revulsion towards it, > unable to become dispassionate towards it and be liberated from it. > "It would be better, bhikkhus, for the uninstructed worldling to > take as self this body composed of the four great elements rather > than the mind. For what reason? Because this body composed of the > four great elements is seen standing for one year, for two years, > for three, four, five, or ten years, for twenty, thirty, forty, or > fifty years, for a hundred years, or even longer. > But that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' and consciousness' > arises as one thing and ceases as another by day and by night. Just > as a monkey roaming through a forest grabs hold of one branch, lets > that go and grabs another, then lets that go and grabs still > another, so too that which is called 'mind' and 'mentality' > and 'consciousness' arises as one thing and ceases as another by day > and by night. [note 157] > "Therein, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple attends closely > and carefully to dependent origination itself thus: > 'When this exists, that comes to be; with the arising of this, that > arises. When this does not exist, that does not come to be; with the > cessation of this, that ceases. That is, with ignorance as > condition, volitional formations [come to be]; with volitional > formations as condition, consciousness .... Such is the origin of > this whole mass of suffering. But with the remainderless fading away > and cessation of ignorance comes cessation of volitional formations; > with the cessation of volitional formations, cessation of > consciousness .... Such is the cessation of this whole mass of > suffering. > "Seeing thus, bhikkhus, the instructed noble disciple experiences > revulsion towards form, revulsion towards feeling, revulsion towards > perception, revulsion towards volitional formations, revulsion > towards consciousness. Experiencing revulsion, he becomes > dispassionate. Through dispassion [his mind] is liberated. When it > is liberated there comes the knowledge: "It's liberated.' He > understands: 'Destroyed is birth, the holy life has been lived, what > had to be done has been done, there is no more for this state of > being.'" > > [note 157: Spk: 'By day and by night (rattiyaa ca divasassa ca): > This is a genitive in the locative sense, i.e., during the night and > during the day. Arises as one thing and ceases as another (annadeva > uppajjati, anna.m nirujjhati): The meaning is that (the mind) that > arises and ceases during the day is other than (the mind) that > arises and ceases during the night. The statement should not be > taken to mean that one thing arises and some thing altogether > different, which had not arisen, ceases. "Day and night" is said by > way of continuity, taking a continuity of lesser duration than the > previous one (i.e. the one stated for the body). But one citta is > not able to endure for a whole day or a whole night. Even in the > time of a fingersnap many hundred thousand kotis of cittas arise and > cease (1 koti=10 million). The simile of the monkey should be > understood thus: The "grove of objects" is like the forest grove. > The mind arising in the grove of objects is like the monkey > wandering in the forest grove. The mind's taking hold of an object > is like the monkey grabbing hold of a branch. Just as the monkey, > roaming through the forest, leaves behind one branch and grabs hold > of another, so the mind, roaming through the grove of objects, > arises sometimes grasping hold of a visible object, sometimes a > sound, sometimes the past, sometimes the present or future, > sometimes an internal object, sometimes an external object. When the > monkey does not find a (new) branch it does not descend and sit on > the ground, but sits holding to a single leafy branch. So too, when > the mind is roaming through the grove of objects, it cannot be said > that it arises without holding to an object; rather it arises > holding to an object of a single kind. > > It should be noted that neither the sutta nor the commentary > interprets the monkey simile here as saying that the untrained mind > is as restless as a monkey; the point, rather, is that the mind is > always dependent on an object.] So attend closely and carefully to dependent origination and see consciousness as it actually is with right discernment thus: "This is not mine. This I am not. This is not my self." > > Lovely to see you posting again Victor - missed you. :-) Thank you for your kind words. :-) > > metta and peace, > Christine Metta, Victor [1] Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31 Simsapa Sutta The Simsapa Leaves http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-031.html [2] Majjhima Nikaya 10 Satipatthana Sutta Frames of Reference http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn010.html 34373 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 11:47am Subject: Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hi Christine and all, I checked the Pali-English dictionary http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ on "paramattha" and found it's definition as the following: Paramattha (p. 421) [pp. of paramasati] touched, grasped, usually in bad sense: succumbing to, defiled, corrupted D I.17; for a different, commentarial interpretation see Paramasa (evan° so acquired or taken up; cp. DA I.107: nirasanka--cittataya punappuna amattha); S II.94; Nd2 152 (gahita p. abhinivittha; cp. gahessasi No. 227); Dhs 584, 1177, 1500; Sdhp 332. --dup° wrongly grasped, misused S I.49. --apparamattha [cp. BSk. aparamrsta not affected Mvyutp. p. 84] untarnished, incorrupt D II.80 (cp. Dial II.85); III.245; S II.70; A III.36. It says nothing about "paramattha" meaning "ultimate," but conforms with the meaning of "paramatthaka" that you suggested. But regardless the meaning of the word "paramattha" and "paramatthaka," the view "this is ultimate, and that is just a concept" is to be abandoned. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Herman, Victor, all, > > Do you think it is possible that you are confusing two similar words? > > When we are speaking of Ultimate Realities the Pali word is: > paramattha : [m.] the highest ideal; truth in the ultimate sense. > > I think the word in the title of this sutta - the Paramatthaka > Sutta - comes from paraamattha (pp. of paraamasati) which means > touched; held on to; was attached; caressed. Reading the sutta in > both translations by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and by John Ireland, I > think it is refering to clinging to views - not, I think, in any > way to ultimate realities. > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Herman and all, > > > > I think this discourse is a relevant reminder for abandoning the > > view of paramattha dhamma, namely: This is ultimate, that is just > a > > concept/paññatti. > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" > > wrote: > > > Hi everyone, > > > > > > This is what the Buddha had to say about paramattha anythings. > > > > > > "A person who associates himself with certain views, considering > > them as > > > best and making them supreme in the world, he says, because of > > that, > > > that all other views are inferior; therefore he is not free from > > > contention (with others). In what is seen, heard, cognized and > in > > ritual > > > observances performed, he sees a profit for himself. Just by > > laying hold > > > of that view he regards every other view as worthless. Those > > skilled (in > > > judgment)[1] say that (a view becomes) a bond if, relying on it, > > one > > > regards everything else as inferior. Therefore a bhikkhu should > not > > > depend on what is seen, heard or cognized, nor upon ritual > > observances. > > > He should not present himself as equal to, nor imagine himself > to > > be > > > inferior, nor better than, another. Abandoning (the views) he had > > > (previously) held and not taking up (another), he does not seek a > > > support even in knowledge. Among those who dispute he is > certainly > > not > > > one to take sides. He does not [have] recourse to a view at all. > > In whom > > > there is no inclination to either extreme, for becoming or non- > > becoming, > > > here or in another existence, for him there does not exist a > fixed > > > viewpoint on investigating the doctrines assumed (by others). > > Concerning > > > the seen, the heard and the cognized he does not form the least > > notion. > > > That brahmana[2] who does not grasp at a view, with what could > he > > be > > > identified in the world? > > > > > > "They do not speculate nor pursue (any notion); doctrines are not > > > accepted by them. A (true) brahmana is beyond, does not fall > back > > on > > > views." > > > > > > -- vv. 796-803 > > > > > > taken from > > > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/suttanipata/snp4- > > 05a > > > .html > > > > > > > > > Savour the flavour > > > > > > > > > Herman 34374 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 0:01pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Phil and all, Physical sciences such as physics and chemistry are the sciences of the matter and energy. The Buddha himself used the 'method of "gradual training" (anupubbi- katha)...to guide newcomers from first principles through progressively more advanced teachings, all the way to the fulfillment of the Four Noble Truths and the realization of Nibbana.' http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma.html http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud5- 03.html#gradual Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Victor, and all > > > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught > about > > the detailed description of the mind? > > Ph: The Buddha taught a way to liberation. And a very explicit one, > it seems to this beginner. One of the three division of the Buddha's > teaching is the Abhidhamma which from the little I understand can be > described as a detailed description of not only mind but matter as > well. > It seems logical to me to begin by understanding as thoroughly as > possible the nature of mind and matter before learning the practices > that lead to liberation. Just like I would want to be familiar with > all the parts of an engine before I started to repair it. I know this > is a simplistic way of looking at things, but unless I have > completely misunderstood what Abhidhamma is about (quite possible!) > it seems a sensible way to go about Dhamma study. > > Metta, > Phil > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Phil and all, > > > > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught about > > the detailed description of the mind? > > > > Metta, > > Victor 34375 From: Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 8:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice In a message dated 7/3/04 11:30:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: Yes, the Buddha taught the four Noble Truths. And in Simpasa Sutta [1], the Buddha explained why he had taught them and why he had not taught many other things that he had known with direct knowledge. ==== Anyone, Do you know where I can find the Simpasa Sutta. My Internet search engines can't find it. Jack 34376 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 0:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Jack The link for Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31 Simsapa Sutta The Simsapa Leaves is http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-031.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/3/04 11:30:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Yes, the Buddha taught the four Noble Truths. And in Simpasa Sutta > [1], the Buddha explained why he had taught them and why he had not > taught many other things that he had known with direct knowledge. > ==== > Anyone, > > Do you know where I can find the Simpasa Sutta. My Internet search engines > can't find it. > > Jack > > > 34377 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 0:36pm Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Jack, "Simpasa Sutta" should read "Simsapa Sutta." Sorry about the typo!! Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/3/04 11:30:44 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Yes, the Buddha taught the four Noble Truths. And in Simpasa Sutta > [1], the Buddha explained why he had taught them and why he had not > taught many other things that he had known with direct knowledge. > ==== > Anyone, > > Do you know where I can find the Simpasa Sutta. My Internet search engines > can't find it. > > Jack > > > 34378 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 1:07pm Subject: Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hello Victor, all, The Pali-English Dictionary is a very complex document which has a large number of separate entries for 'para'. Not just one. http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html Use the Second Search engine in the 'words that match' category. This will bring up 147 entries when 'para' is searched on, then click on "key word in context display". This will bring up the first 100 instances. Then click on entry no. 74 for 'Parama'. If you don't want to go through that rigamarole and want to go straight to the particulary entry I am referring to, I have converted the long url to a tiny one for your convenience: http://tinyurl.com/38mrj Here is the one I was referring to, in which this excerpt is relevant: "nn--attha [cp. class. Sk. paramartha] the highest good, ideal; truth in the ultimate sense, philosophical truth (cp. Kvu trsl. 180; J.P.T.S. 1914, 129 sq.; Cpd. 6, 81); Arahantship Sn 68 (=vuccati Amatan Nibbanan etc. Nd2 409), 219 (°dassin); Nd2 26; Miln 19, 31; ° dipani Exposition of the Highest Truth, N. of the Commentary on Th, Vv and Pv; mentioned e. g. at PvA 71; °jotika id., N. of the C. on Kh and Sn, mentioned e. g. at KhA 11. -- As °--, in instr. and abl. used adverbially Qn meaning of "in the highest sense, absolutely, kat) e)coxh/n, primarily, ideally, in an absolute sense," like ° parami Bu I.77 °visuddhi A V.64; °sannita Th 2, 210; °sunna Ps II.184; °suddhi SnA 528; abl. paramatthato Miln 28; VvA 24 (manusso), 30 (bhikkhu), 72 (jivitindriyan); PvA 146 (pabbajito, corresponding to anavasesato), 253 (na koci kinci hanati=not at all); instr. paramatthena Miln 71 (vedagu), 268 (sattupaladdhi). -- gati the highest or best course of life or future exsitence Vv 3512 (=anupadisesa--nibbana VvA 164). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Christine and all, > > I checked the Pali-English dictionary > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ > on "paramattha" and found it's definition as the following: > > Paramattha (p. 421) [pp. of paramasati] touched, grasped, usually in > bad sense: succumbing to, defiled, corrupted D I.17; for a > different, commentarial interpretation see Paramasa (evan° so > acquired or taken up; cp. DA I.107: nirasanka--cittataya punappuna > amattha); S II.94; Nd2 152 (gahita p. abhinivittha; cp. gahessasi > No. 227); Dhs 584, 1177, 1500; Sdhp 332. --dup° wrongly grasped, > misused S I.49. --apparamattha [cp. BSk. aparamrsta not affected > Mvyutp. p. 84] untarnished, incorrupt D II.80 (cp. Dial II.85); > III.245; S II.70; A III.36. > > It says nothing about "paramattha" meaning "ultimate," but conforms > with the meaning of "paramatthaka" that you suggested. > > But regardless the meaning of the word "paramattha" > and "paramatthaka," the view "this is ultimate, and that is just a > concept" is to be abandoned. > > Metta, > Victor > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" > wrote: > > Hello Herman, Victor, all, > > > > Do you think it is possible that you are confusing two similar > words? > > > > When we are speaking of Ultimate Realities the Pali word is: > > paramattha : [m.] the highest ideal; truth in the ultimate sense. > > > > I think the word in the title of this sutta - the Paramatthaka > > Sutta - comes from paraamattha (pp. of paraamasati) which means > > touched; held on to; was attached; caressed. Reading the sutta > in > > both translations by Thanissaro Bhikkhu, and by John Ireland, I > > think it is refering to clinging to views - not, I think, in any > > way to ultimate realities. > > > > metta and peace, > > Christine > > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34379 From: Philip Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 2:56pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Victor > The Buddha himself used the 'method of "gradual training" (anupubbi- > katha)...to guide newcomers from first principles through > progressively more advanced teachings, all the way to the > fulfillment of the Four Noble Truths and the realization of Nibbana.' > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma.html > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud5- > 03.html#gradual Ph: Thank you for this information. So far I've been limiting my focussed sutta study (ie other than those that come up incidentally) to the Dhammapada, but you've provided me with the Buddha's way of approaching them. Wonderful! The second link doesn't work, but when I checked Udana at Access to Insight I found that it is a collection of short suttas. Are they often recommended to beginners? I will stick to seeking a basic understanding of Abhidhdamma before launching into focussed study of Majhimma Nikaya or Samyutta (sp?) Nikaya through the Bodhi anthologies. It still feels sensible to me, and I have a keen interest in it, and keen interest should not be discouraged unless it is leading one into wrong view. I won't yet be able to understand Abhidhamma fully, of course, but any lack of understanding will not take me any further from understanding annata. (ie failing to understand Abdhidhamma is not as dangerous as failing to understand the purpose of meditation, which can lead to strengthening self-view, in my opinion and speaking from experience.) But I will also pay attention to the Buddha's gradual training and add the body of suttas you have linked me to to my study of Dhammapada. Thanks again. Phil > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > > > Hi Victor, and all > > > > > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught > > about > > > the detailed description of the mind? > > > > Ph: The Buddha taught a way to liberation. And a very explicit > one, > > it seems to this beginner. One of the three division of the > Buddha's > > teaching is the Abhidhamma which from the little I understand can > be > > described as a detailed description of not only mind but matter as > > well. > > It seems logical to me to begin by understanding as thoroughly > as > > possible the nature of mind and matter before learning the > practices > > that lead to liberation. Just like I would want to be familiar > with > > all the parts of an engine before I started to repair it. I know > this > > is a simplistic way of looking at things, but unless I have > > completely misunderstood what Abhidhamma is about (quite > possible!) > > it seems a sensible way to go about Dhamma study. > > > > Metta, > > Phil > > > > > > > > > > > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > > wrote: > > > Hi Phil and all, > > > > > > What is it that the Buddha taught? Is what the Buddha taught > about > > > the detailed description of the mind? > > > > > > Metta, > > > Victor 34380 From: Philip Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 3:02pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi again, Victor Now I see that the Udana sutta you were linking me to is The Leper. I remember reading that before and being deeply impressed by how the Buddha healed the Leper's mind through a systematic teaching rather than using magic as some other fellow once did to heal a leper's body, according to hearsay. ;) Mind you, I think the fact that the Buddha (and the leper) were able to pull this off in one sitting is verging on magic but nevermind. :) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Victor > > > The Buddha himself used the 'method of "gradual training" (anupubbi- > > katha)...to guide newcomers from first principles through > > progressively more advanced teachings, all the way to the > > fulfillment of the Four Noble Truths and the realization of > Nibbana.' > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma.html > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud5- > > 03.html#gradual > > 34381 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 4:06pm Subject: Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hi Chrisitine and all, Thanks for the explanation and the link. That is cool to convert a long url to a tiny one. How would one do that? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, all, > > The Pali-English Dictionary is a very complex document which has a > large number of separate entries for 'para'. Not just one. > > http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/index.html > Use the Second Search engine in the 'words that match' category. > This will bring up 147 entries when 'para' is searched on, then > click on "key word in context display". This will bring up the > first 100 instances. Then click on entry no. 74 for 'Parama'. > If you don't want to go through that rigamarole and want to go > straight to the particulary entry I am referring to, I have > converted the long url to a tiny one for your convenience: > http://tinyurl.com/38mrj > Here is the one I was referring to, in which this excerpt is > relevant: > > "nn--attha [cp. class. Sk. paramartha] the highest good, ideal; > truth in the ultimate sense, philosophical truth (cp. Kvu trsl. 180; > J.P.T.S. 1914, 129 sq.; Cpd. 6, 81); Arahantship Sn 68 (=vuccati > Amatan Nibbanan etc. Nd2 409), 219 (°dassin); Nd2 26; Miln 19, 31; ° > dipani Exposition of the Highest Truth, N. of the Commentary on Th, > Vv and Pv; mentioned e. g. at PvA 71; °jotika id., N. of the C. on > Kh and Sn, mentioned e. g. at KhA 11. -- As °--, in instr. and abl. > used adverbially Qn meaning of "in the highest sense, absolutely, > kat) e)coxh/n, primarily, ideally, in an absolute sense," like ° > parami Bu I.77 °visuddhi A V.64; °sannita Th 2, 210; °sunna Ps > II.184; °suddhi SnA 528; abl. paramatthato Miln 28; VvA 24 > (manusso), 30 (bhikkhu), 72 (jivitindriyan); PvA 146 (pabbajito, > corresponding to anavasesato), 253 (na koci kinci hanati=not at > all); instr. paramatthena Miln 71 (vedagu), 268 (sattupaladdhi). -- > gati the highest or best course of life or future exsitence Vv 3512 > (=anupadisesa--nibbana VvA 164). > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34382 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 4:15pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Philip, I'm glad to see that you've never smoked :-) Smokers continue to smoke, despite their awareness of its foulness, because of craving. It really is a struggle to give it up. It requires ongoing determined vigilance and effort. Just recently the former Premier of Tasmania died of lung cancer, aged in his early fifties. Even after he was diagnosed with cancer he was unable to give up. Smokers, like all addicts, come up with all sorts of reasons why they will light up another one. That you are on a quest to see the reality of the three characteristics is commendable, and proof aplenty that you already have more than an inkling of the truth of the First Noble Truth. This was the message of Sariputta to Anathapindika on his painful deathbed. "Then, householder, you should train yourself in this way: 'I won't cling to what is seen, heard, sensed, cognized, attained, sought after, pondered by the intellect; my consciousness will not be dependent on that.' That's how you should train yourself." "When this was said, Anathapindika the householder wept and shed tears. Ven. Ananda said to him, "Are you sinking, householder? Are you foundering?" "No, venerable sir. I'm not sinking, nor am I foundering. It's just that for a long time I have attended to the Teacher, and to the monks who inspire my heart, but never before have I heard a talk on the Dhamma like this." "This sort of talk on the Dhamma, householder, is not given to lay people clad in white. This sort of talk on the Dhamma is given to those gone forth." "In that case, Ven. Sariputta, please let this sort of talk on the Dhamma be given to lay people clad in white. There are clansmen with little dust in their eyes who are wasting away through not hearing [this] Dhamma. There will be those who will understand it." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn143.html The best way to smoke khandas is to not inhale :-) Herman -----Original Message----- From: Philip [mailto:plnao@j...] Sent: Saturday, 3 July 2004 9:45 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Herman, H: > Would you say that it is sensible to get to know everything about > tobacco, about human physiology, about cigarette manufacturers and their > brands before one attempts to give up smoking? Ph: Hmm. I'm not sure that's a suitable comparison, not only because the danger of smoking is so evident, but also the way of liberation from smoking is so clear cut. You stop smoking. If we try to take clear cut actions for liberation from samsara (sp?) we risk fooling ourselves and getting deeper into wrong view of self. Is there anything clear cut about how to understand annata, annica and dukkha? I don't think so. It seems to me that Abhidhamma lays out a manual for beginning to understand the aggregates, for starting to get at understanding the three characteristics. 34383 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 4:56pm Subject: Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hello Victor, and all, I use 'tinyurl.com' because I like the name :-) , and because it is the only program I know that can also be used for languages other than english. (Japanese, Mandarin, Spanish). http://tinyurl.com/ Over all, there are eight different programs that can be used to shorten lengthy urls. Go to this site and have a look at the informal survey of these programs. http://notlong.com/links/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Chrisitine and all, > > Thanks for the explanation and the link. That is cool to convert a > long url to a tiny one. How would one do that? > > Metta, > Victor 34384 From: nori Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 6:23pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain hi jon & sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Sarah and I read your post this morning while enjoying the very pleasant > feeling of the sun on our backs sitting high in the Swiss alps, with a > clear view of the Matterhorn, and in my case a lovely cup of coffe to be > enjoyed. There was a lot of pleasant feeling going on ;-)). > Jon Sounds nice. I often wonder whether arahats still 'take pleasure' in sense objects. It is written many times in the suttas that those who 'know' realize that pleasure is pain; it is one and the same (i.e. pleasure will ultimately and inevitably turn to pain.) This idea often makes me cautious of 'enjoying myself'. On the other hand, Buddha is quoted many times in the suttas saying something like, "How pleasent is the moonlit night..." I don't know what to make of these contradictions. metta, nori 34385 From: nori Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 6:29pm Subject: Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain hi victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Samyutta Nikaya XXXVI.6 > Sallatha Sutta > The Arrow > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn36-006.html > > we have the following passage: > > The Blessed One said, "When touched with a feeling of pain, the > uninstructed run-of-the-mill person sorrows, grieves, & laments, > beats his breast, becomes distraught. So he feels two pains, > physical & mental. Just as if they were to shoot a man with an arrow > and, right afterward, were to shoot him with another one, ... Thanks for pointing out this sutta, nori 34386 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 6:35pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Phil, Reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Victor > > > The Buddha himself used the 'method of "gradual training" (anupubbi- > > katha)...to guide newcomers from first principles through > > progressively more advanced teachings, all the way to the > > fulfillment of the Four Noble Truths and the realization of > Nibbana.' > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma.html > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/udana/ud5- > > 03.html#gradual > > Ph: Thank you for this information. So far I've been limiting my > focussed sutta study (ie other than those that come up incidentally) > to the Dhammapada, but you've provided me with the Buddha's way of > approaching them. Wonderful! No problem. As long as you find the information useful. The second link doesn't work, but when I > checked Udana at Access to Insight I found that it is a collection of > short suttas. Are they often recommended to beginners? Not sure about others. I recommend the page http://www.accesstoinsight.org/ptf/dhamma.html once in a while. > > I will stick to seeking a basic understanding of Abhidhdamma before > launching into focussed study of Majhimma Nikaya or Samyutta (sp?) > Nikaya through the Bodhi anthologies. For reading the discourses, I think you might be interested in the suggestions in the following article: Befriending the Suttas Some Suggestions for Reading the Pali Discourses by John Bullitt http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/sutta101.html It still feels sensible to me, > and I have a keen interest in it, and keen interest should not be > discouraged unless it is leading one into wrong view. There is nothing wrong with pursuing a study in a subject, say, psychology or physics. By pursuing a study in psychology, one gains knowledge about human mind. By pursuing a study in physics, one gains knowledge about matter and energy. I won't yet be > able to understand Abhidhamma fully, of course, but any lack of > understanding will not take me any further from understanding annata. In the discourse Samyutta Nikaya XXII.59 Anatta-lakkhana Sutta The Discourse on the Not-self Characteristic http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-059.html the Buddha taught the characteristic of being not self. > (ie failing to understand Abdhidhamma is not as dangerous as failing > to understand the purpose of meditation, which can lead to > strengthening self-view, in my opinion and speaking from > experience.) Here is a link to more links to discourses in which the Buddha spoke about self-view/self-identity view/sakkaya-ditthi: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/index-subject.html#sakkaya To abandon self-identity view, one needs to know what it is first. But I will also pay attention to the Buddha's gradual > training and add the body of suttas you have linked me to to my study > of Dhammapada. > > Thanks again. Again, no problem. Writing this message has got me doing some research in the discourses and reflecting on what the Buddha taught So I thank you for providing that opportunity. > > Phil Metta, Victor 34387 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 6:40pm Subject: Re: Paramatthaka Sutta Hi Christine and all, Wow, that is really cool. Thanks for the info. :-) Now I think I will be able to make tiny url. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Hello Victor, and all, > > I use 'tinyurl.com' because I like the name :-) , and because it is > the only program I know that can also be used for languages other > than english. (Japanese, Mandarin, Spanish). > http://tinyurl.com/ > > Over all, there are eight different programs that can be used to > shorten lengthy urls. > Go to this site and have a look at the informal survey of these > programs. > http://notlong.com/links/ > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Chrisitine and all, > > > > Thanks for the explanation and the link. That is cool to convert > a > > long url to a tiny one. How would one do that? > > > > Metta, > > Victor 34388 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 7:17pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Binnatta, You wrote: ------------------- > I'm not completely sure, but it feels like you interpreted my post as an attack on members of this group. It was not intended as such although I admit I could have re-worded some things. > ----------------------- I suppose some of your words could have given offence had I chosen to take them that way, but I was not at all inclined to do so. My reply sailed close to the wind too -- I could have re-worded some things -- but I relied on you to give me the benefit of the doubt. Let's continue to be polite but not to the extent of tiptoeing around sensitivities -- walking on eggshells -- or whatever the expression is. :-) ------------------ > B: I had no idea there was any dispute as to the usefulness of meditation as a tool for liberation; nor of Buddha's predilection for it. In all honesty, I cannot fully see the utility in studying the Abhidhamma or the Commentaries nor how such study relates to the ending of suffering. That is why I joined DSG in the first place; to see what others have to say about it. Perhaps we are both limited in our understanding of proper practice. This is why I value this group. So many different propensities and accumulations, and yet there's a skillfull practice for each of us. > ----------------- Well said --it was a pity to snip some of it. :-) When I first joined dsg, I felt the same way you do. I could see that, here, people were discussing a way of understanding that needed no concept of self. Joining DSG has been the best thing that ever happened to me. Some people have been less delighted and, even after forming strong friendships here, have felt compelled to move on. There is a host of opinions among our members (including anti-Abhidhammaism) but, ideally, we aim to learn and practise the Dhamma as found in *all three* baskets of the Tipitaka *and* its ancient commentaries. ----------------- B: > You are referring to conditional relations in which mental states come about through causes and conditions without any need for the actions of a self. I'm familiar with the model. I guess I'm more interested in experiencing what the model refers to rather than dissecting the very structure and make up of the model. > ---------------- I agree the Abhidhamma does provide a model, but it is also the real thing. I notice from your other posts that you are not convinced of the ultimate reality of citta, cetasika, rupa [and even Nibbana if I understand you correctly]. But the Buddha taught them as absolute realities. That was the point of the sutta you quoted (Sabba Sutta): the Buddha was describing all that really exists. ---------------- B: > This is why my arguments seem to lean in the direction of practice rather than intellection or debate. I admit I have a great deal of opinions about what constitutes skillfull practice. If there indeed is a way to the ending of suffering through studying and recollecting on the terms and categories of the Abhidhamma, I hope by joining DSG, that path will soon become clear to me. > ----------------- Some people jokingly refer to DSG as "study, study, study," and as a beginner, I make the mistake of agreeing with them. But then I am reminded to practise what I have learnt: In this present moment, there is the opportunity for right understanding (satipatthana). Conditions might allow for only a low, elementary level of right understanding, but it is desperately important that it should arise -- now! ---------------- B: > The ending of effluents does indeed require a great deal of concentration, however not necessarily the level of concentration that would qualify as jhana. Thank you again for the clarification. ------------------ My Pleasure; however, I have not finished the point I was making: Great concentration is required, but it is not developed by a self of any kind. If you are thinking of developing concentration in a way followed by uninstructed worldlings then stop, you are going the wrong way. ------------------- > B: Again, you are refering to concentration as a mental factor. I am talking about concentration conventionally as a developed faculty. I don't believe anyone in this group has realized paramattha dhamma and therefore limit my discussion to conceptual truths. If our vocabulary is out of synch, it is only because I am unfamiliar with the definitions and terms in the Abhidhamma. Thank you for correcting my understanding. > -------------------- Getting back to the Sabba Sutta: the Buddha's description of the all was of a moment of consciousness. It exists for the briefest possible time, less than a billionth of a fingersnap. In the first moment of consciousness described, there is `eye, and eye object,' that is all - there is no ear or ear object at that time. Other suttas (Loka Sutta e.g.,) flesh this out to `eye-base, eye- consciousness, eye-object, eye contact and the feeling dependent upon eye contact.' Still other suttas, and especially the Abhidhamma-pitaka, expand on `eye consciousness' to include both citta (vinnana-khandha) and the fifty sankhara-khandha cetasikas in their various potential combinations (89 in all). One of those sankhara-khandha cetasikas is concentration (samadhi). It is one of the five cetasikas that arise in all moments of consciousness. There is no other kind of concentration. Conventionally, we think there is a concentration that grows and grows as we focus intently on something, but that is an illusory concentration - it is not a part of the all. ----------------------- B: > I do have some uneasiness with the translation of panna as right understanding. Sometimes it seems as if it is being used as meaning right knowledge (of doctrine), and I don't think that is correct. The dhamma is not exclusive to intellectuals. Perhaps you could clarify this for me. ----------------------- Panna is one of the sankhara-khandha cetasikas that can arise in eye, ear, nose, tongue, body or mind consciousness if we are very lucky. Right intellectual understanding is not the kind of panna we equate with satipatthana, but I think it can be described as panna of a very weak kind. The panna of satipatthana directly knows a paramattha dhamma (nama or rupa). To begin with, it directly knows that nama is nama as distinct from rupa, or it knows that a dhamma is conditioned, subject to rise and fall etc. Well-developed panna eventually knows a dhamma as having the characteristics, anicca, dukkha and anatta. The only step beyond that is for panna to know the unconditioned dhamma, Nibbana. ----------------------- B: . . . but I feel now it deserves some attention. What is your justification for your opinion? Do you just not like the word 'meditation' --------------------------- In the texts, the word for meditation is bhavana. If bhavana is real, it has to fit into the `all.' And it does -- it fits in the definition of consciousness (any of the six kinds) in which the mental factor panna (right understanding) arises. In the case of samatha bhavana, the object of consciousness is a concept (which is not part of the all); in the case of vipassana bhavana, the object is a part of the all (any part whatsoever). --------------------------- B: > or do you really believe that the statement "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore" refers to something other than the activity of 'meditation' as the term is commonly understood? This is not an attack, I am just interested in your reasoning. ------------------ The above quote is part of the Dhamma and, like every part of the Dhamma, it is there to be understood. An accomplished Dhamma student knows every reality contained in the above description. Notably, there is the reality of jhana consciousness, which is mind- door consciousness with panna that has a concept (not part of the all) as its object. Even more notably, that [Satipatthana] sutta goes on to describe satipatthana, which is a moment of consciousness, with panna, that has a conditioned dhamma (part of the all) as its object. Having practised satipatthana in this way, the monk has properly understood the Sabba Sutta. In fact, he has understood every sutta because the whole of the Buddha's teaching can be summed up in one word, "satipatthana." Getting back to your question; the Satipatthana-sutta does not prescribe jhana meditation. It begins with the description of a jhana meditator who goes on to develop satipatthana. In the same way, it describes many conventional (not part of the all) activities - walking, stretching the arm, eating, talking, defecating - during which satipatthana can occur. ---------------- B: By saying concepts are not part of the all you are attempting to posit an other. All is all and any other is included in the all. I'm sure you are refering to some commentary or sutta that defines conceptual thinking as a mental state/factor/illusion that is separate from the senses and therefore not part of the all as defined above. That, IMHO, is missing the point. ----------------- No, I am not positing another. By definition, a concept is not part of the all. Remember, the all is everything that is real. Flying purple elephants are not mentioned in the Sabba Sutta because they are not part of the all. Nothing that is illusory (non-existent) is part of the all. Let alone "flying purple," even ordinary grey elephants are not real; nor are men and women, rocks and bottles: these are just concepts (ideas). Some concepts refer to paramattha dhammas, other concepts refer to concepts - only the actual paramattha dhammas themselves (the all) are real. (Note; the Access to Insight translation you gave yesterday, did say that "ideas" are part of the all - that was a big mistake, a very misleading translation.) ------------- B: Nibbana, being unconditioned, is not within the realm of experience, although the idea of it is an experience subject to the laws of conditionality. If what you say is how it is elucidated in the Abhidhamma, I must respectfully disagree with the Abhidhamma. ------------- Thanks for your honesty. Whether or not you agree with the texts you have chosen to study, the important thing is to know what they say. The Abhidhamma does describe Nibbana as a mental phenomenon -- in the sense that it can be experienced `by the mind.' Nibbana is experienced in a moment of enlightenment. Enlightenment is real and is therefore included in the Sabba Sutta. It is mind consciousness with panna, and its object, Nibbana, is described under the heading, "mental phenomena." ------------------ B: > "There is the case where the man, having crossed over, would think, 'How useful this raft has been to me! In the same way, monks, I have taught the Dhamma compared to a raft, for the purpose of crossing over, not for the purpose of holding onto. Understanding the Dhamma as taught compared to a raft, you should let go even of Dhammas, to say nothing of non-Dhammas." - MN 22 > ------------------ Yes, good quote, but I thought your point was that dhammas are not ultimately real, which would be a terrible misunderstanding. People who think dhammas (nama and rupa) are, ultimately, no more real than concepts (people, places, flying elephants) have a terrible time trying to understand the Abhidhamma. (You will notice there is no direct reference to the Abhidhamma in Access to Insight.) Getting back to that quote: the raft is laid down when the Dhamma has been followed; when a monk can say, "I have lived the good life! Done is what had to be done!" It doesn't mean dhammas are not ultimately real. Remember the Mahacattarika-sutta: "And what monks, is wrong understanding? To hold the view . . . that this world [the all] does not really exist . . .. That is wrong understanding." ------------------- B: > We are treading on dangerous ground here. This could lead into a whole conversation about whether what is contained in the present Tipitaka and commentaries is the same Dhamma referred to by the Buddha in those very texts. ------------------------------------ Dangerous ground that doesn't tempt me -- life is too short. I am content with the Dhamma that is found in those texts :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34389 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 7:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Nori, I know your message is addressed to Jon and Sarah. So forgive me for jumping in. While pain/painful feeling is painful, pleasure/pleasant feeling is not. Pleasure is pleasant. However, feeling, may it be painful feeling, pleasant feeling or neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, is dukkha(unsatisfactory/imperfect...) An arahant has abandoned sensual pleasure and no longer enjoy it. Instead of sensual pleasure, he or she experiences the pleasure of renunciation, the pleasure of the Unbinding/nibbana, the pleasure of seclusion, the pleasure of calm as result of concentration.[1] Metta, Victor [1] Majjhima Nikaya 66 Latukikopama Sutta The Quail Simile http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html "And, Udayin, there are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These are the five strings of sensuality. Now, any pleasure & happiness that arises dependent on these five strings of sensuality is called sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is not to be cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, that it is to be feared. "Now, there is the case where a monk -- quite withdrawn from sensuality, withdrawn from unskillful mental qualities -- enters & remains in the first jhana: rapture & pleasure born from withdrawal, accompanied by directed thought & evaluation. With the stilling of directed thought & evaluation, he enters & remains in the second jhana: rapture & pleasure born of concentration, unification of awareness free from directed thought & evaluation -- internal assurance. With the fading of rapture, he remains in equanimity, mindful & alert, and physically sensitive of pleasure. He enters & remains in the third jhana, of which the Noble Ones declare, 'Equanimous & mindful, he has a pleasurable abiding.' With the abandoning of pleasure & pain -- as with the earlier disappearance of elation & distress -- he enters & remains in the fourth jhana: purity of equanimity & mindfulness, neither pleasure nor pain. This is called renunciation-pleasure, seclusion-pleasure, calm-pleasure, self-awakening-pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is to be cultivated, to be developed, to be pursued, that it is not to be feared. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > hi jon & sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Sarah and I read your post this morning while enjoying the very > pleasant > > feeling of the sun on our backs sitting high in the Swiss alps, > with a > > clear view of the Matterhorn, and in my case a lovely cup of coffe > to be > > enjoyed. There was a lot of pleasant feeling going on ;-)). > > > Jon > > Sounds nice. > > I often wonder whether arahats still 'take pleasure' in sense > objects. It is written many times in the suttas that those who 'know' > realize that pleasure is pain; it is one and the same (i.e. pleasure > will ultimately and inevitably turn to pain.) This idea often makes > me cautious of 'enjoying myself'. > > On the other hand, Buddha is quoted many times in the suttas saying > something like, "How pleasent is the moonlit night..." > > I don't know what to make of these contradictions. > > > metta, > nori 34390 From: nori Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 9:46pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain hi victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Nori, > > I know your message is addressed to Jon and Sarah. So forgive me > for jumping in. Its always good to hear your comments. > While pain/painful feeling is painful, pleasure/pleasant feeling is > not. Pleasure is pleasant. However, feeling, may it be painful > feeling, pleasant feeling or neither-painful-nor-pleasant feeling, > is dukkha(unsatisfactory/imperfect...) > > An arahant has abandoned sensual pleasure and no longer enjoy it. > Instead of sensual pleasure, he or she experiences the pleasure of > renunciation, the pleasure of the Unbinding/nibbana, the pleasure of > seclusion, the pleasure of calm as result of concentration.[1] > > > Metta, > Victor So then I was practicing correctly in being cautious, or by my own volition, not 'taking pleasure' in sense objects. Thank you again for pointing out this sutta. Metta, Nori PS: You might find my next post interesting. > [1] > Majjhima Nikaya 66 > Latukikopama Sutta > The Quail Simile > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html snip... "Now, any pleasure & happiness that arises dependent on these five strings of sensuality is called sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is not to be cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, that it is to be feared." ...snip 34391 From: nori Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 9:48pm Subject: Is this Jesus 'The Savior' or Gotama Buddha speaking? Hi all, I am surprised to find a striking similarity to Buddhism in this early writing which was written by Mathaias in a discussion between Jesus and Judas Thomas. To give a little history of this text for those not familiar: The Nag Hammadi Library, is a collection of thirteen ancient codices containing over fifty texts that was discovered in upper Egypt in 1945. It contains the earliest known writings of the dialogues of Jesus `The Savior'; texts once thought to have been entirely destroyed during the early Christian struggle to define "orthodoxy". Its funny how this text, a dialog with Jesus' brother, which has much more meaning to me than what I have read in the `New Testament', has been completely omitted from the `Bible'. The text in this collection I refer you to is called, The Book of Thomas the Contender, Translated by John D. Turner. I will extract parts which have a striking resemblance to Buddhism: Book of Thomas the Contender: (Jesus speaking to Thomas):"Now, since it has been said that you are my twin and true companion, examine yourself, and learn who you are, in what way you exist, and how you will come to be. Since you will be called my brother, it is not fitting that you be ignorant of yourself. And I know that you have understood, because you had already understood that I am the knowledge of the truth. So while you accompany me, although you are uncomprehending, you have (in fact) already come to know, and you will be called 'the one who knows himself'. For he who has not known himself has known nothing, but he who has known himself has at the same time already achieved knowledge about the depth of the all. So then, you, my brother Thomas, have beheld what is obscure to men, that is, what they ignorantly stumble against." Relationship to the Pali Canon: The practice of Sati-Patthana, that is, Self-Observation, is just that - to understand the self and `in what way we exist'. --- Book of Thomas the Contender: "If, now, you desire to become perfect, you shall observe these things; if not, your name is 'Ignorant', since it is impossible for an intelligent man to dwell with a fool, for the intelligent man is perfect in all wisdom. To the fool, however, the good and bad are the same - indeed the wise man will be nourished by the truth ..." Relationship to the Pali Canon: This is reminiscent of the chapter regarding association with fools in the Dhammapada and other suttas. --- Book of Thomas the Contender: "... But these visible bodies survive by devouring creatures similar to them with the result that the bodies change. Now that which changes will decay and perish, and has no hope of life from then on, since that body is bestial. So just as the body of the beasts perishes, so also will these formations perish. ..." Relationship to the Pali Canon: Buddha's doctrine of impermanence. --- Book of Thomas the Contender: "You neither realize your perdition, nor do you reflect on your circumstances, nor have you understood that you dwell in darkness and death! On the contrary, you are drunk with the fire and full of bitterness. Your mind is deranged on account of the burning that is in you,...", "... Woe to you in the grip of the powers of your body, for they will afflict you!" Relationship to the Pali Canon: Circumstances due to wrong actions and bodily passion/lust --- Book of Thomas the Contender: "... "Watch and pray that you not come to be in the flesh, but rather that you come forth from the bondage of the bitterness of this life. ...", " ... For when you come forth from the sufferings and passions of the body, you will receive rest from the good one, and you will reign with the king, you joined with him and he with you, from now on, for ever and ever, Amen." The entire writing can be read online at: http://www.gnosis.org/naghamm/bookt.html With metta, nori 34392 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 3, 2004 10:12pm Subject: Re: Talk with Rob K conclusion Hi Philip, Thank you for this excellent series with so many memorable quotes. This one, for example, illustrates the Khanda Vagga Sutta (about the tied-up dog) beautufully: "Rob K: Wherever you go, whether it's left or right, you're stuck on this post of self." The Queensland (Australian) DSG members will be meeting Robert next month if all goes according to plan. If we can report back half as well as you have, we'll be doing well. Kind regards, Ken H 34393 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 4:56am Subject: RE: [dsg] Is this Jesus 'The Savior' or Gotama Buddha speaking? Hi Nori, I was recently reminded of another similarity between Jesus and Gotama. Both of their deaths were accompanied by earthquakes. Kind regards Herman >Hi all, >I am surprised to find a striking similarity to Buddhism in this >early writing which was written by Mathaias in a discussion between >Jesus and Judas Thomas. 34394 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 7:14am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 84 Tiika Vis. XIV, 84 Vis 84: (1) When a man is happy on encountering an excellent gift to be given, or recipient, etc., or some such cause for joy, and by placing right view foremost that occurs in the way beginning 'There is [merit in] giving' (M.i,288), he unhesitatingly and unurged by others performs such merit as giving, etc., then his consciousness is 'accompanied by joy', 'associated with knowledge', and 'unprompted'. (2) But when a man is happy and content in the way aforesaid, and, while placing right view foremost, yet he does it hesitantly through lack of free generosity, etc., or urged on by others, then his consciousness is of the same kind as the last but 'prompted'; for in this sense 'prompting' is a term for a prior effort exerted by himself or others. **** Recapitulation of the first two types of kusala citta: 1) accompanied by pleasant feeling, connected with wisdom, unprompted somanassa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-sampayutta.m, asa²nkhaarikam eka.m 2) accompanied by pleasant feeling, connected with wisdom, prompted somanassa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-sampayutta.m, sasa²nkhaarikam eka.m Accompanied by pleasant feeling: ****************************** Vis.: When a man is happy on encountering an excellent gift to be given, or recipient, etc., or some such cause for joy... Tiika 84: After he has explained the eight types of kusala cittas of the sense sphere, he said to begin with , in order to show now the way they are occurring. In that case, as to the expression, or recipient, etc. (aadi), he summarizes with the word the favorable factors of place, time, good friendship and so on. As to the expression, , here there are from another point of view the following factors: an abundance of confidence, purity of view, the fact of having seen the benefit of wholesome deeds, a rebirth-consciousness with pleasant feeling, eleven factors that are the foundations for the enlightenment factor of rapture, thus is the treatment of these and so on. N: Rebirth-consciousness with pleasant feeling is produced by kusala kamma with pleasant feeling. Throughout life the bhavanga-cittas are of the same type, thus, accompanied by pleasant feeling. Accompanied by wisdom. *********************** Vis.: and by placing right view foremost that occurs in the way beginning 'There is [merit in] giving' (M.i,288)... Tiika: As to the expression , not all of the nine bases of right view are referred to by the words, there is offering, etc. , and this should be seen also as the treatment of the foundation for the enlightenment factor of investigation of Dhamma. N: The Tiika refers to M. I, 288, where a person has right view of kamma and vipaka: Tiika: As to the expression, by placing (right view) foremost, this means giving precedence to it. And this has the meaning of association, with reference to precedence of what is conascent, as is said (in the Dhammapada, vs. 1,2), < Mind is the forerunner of dhammas..> N: The Dhammapada explains that mind is the chief in motivating evil and good, and that this brings bad and good results. Citta is the source of good and bad deeds. When one gives precedence to right view, right view is the forerunner, the chief, that is conascent with the kusala citta. There are many degrees of right view. One may have theoretical understanding of kamma that produces its appropriate result, but through insight there is a deeper understanding of kamma and vipaka as nama that is conditioned, that is non-self. Unprompted. ************ Vis.: ... he unhesitatingly and unurged by others performs such merit as giving, etc. Tiika: As to the expression, unhesitatingly, the performing of meritorious deeds does not exhibit any hesitation that could be due to stinginess as to fame, and so on, and in this way he explains unhindered generosity etc... N: There is avarice as to residence, gain, fame etc. Someone may not like to praise others because of stinginess. The person who does not have any stinginess, can without hesitation express his appreciation of someone else¹s kusala, which is a form of dana. Tiika: As to the expression not urged (by others), this means not prompted in any way. In this way he shows the practice of meritorious deeds with its essential properties. As to the expression, (unurged) by others, by this he explains a natural effort. N: The effort for kusala arises spontaneously, without being prompted. Tiika: As to the expression, daana and so on, this means: these are the ten meritorious deeds of generosity, morality up to the rectifying of one¹s views, or daana, siila, mental development and also the other seven kinds are here implied in this way.... For him who is endowed with the intention of what is meritorious. Prompted. ******** Vis. : But when a man is happy and content in the way aforesaid, and, while placing right view foremost, yet he does it hesitantly through lack of free generosity, etc., or urged on by others, then his consciousness is of the same kind as the last but 'prompted'; for in this sense 'prompting' is a term for a prior effort exerted by himself or others. Tiika: With a mind that looks at the gifts that are to be given with restricted generosity. By the word (through restricted generosity,) etc., he deals with lack of determination in the undertaking of morality and so on. N: There is some hesitation and indecisiveness with regard to daana, siila and the other kinds of kusala when the kusala citta is prompted. When one observes siila with the second type of kusala citta, the confidence in kusala, respect for the Buddha and metta and respect for one¹s fellowmen is not as strong as in the case of the first type of kusala citta that is unprompted. Tiika: As to the expression, of the same kind, in a similar way citta is said to be accompanied by pleasant feeling etc. N: The second type of kusala citta is similar to the first type in as far as it is accompanied by pleasant feeling and connected with wisdom. Tiika: As to the expression, for in this sense, this means: a citta which is hesitant is called connected with urging on. With reference to the word ³this², this is a word for prompting. N: The Tiika then explains the meaning of prior urging on or prompting, which should not be taken in the sense of prior in time. The Commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (p. 13) explains: This explanation indicates the difference in quality between kusala citta that arises spontaneously, without any hesitation, and kusala citta that is more hesitant, that needs prompting. There are many different degrees of kusala and they are dependent on different conditions. Confidence in the benefit of kusala has many degrees. Through satipatthana confidence in kusala develops. ***** Nina 34395 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dana and sila Dear Rob M and Philip, op 01-07-2004 03:33 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > From time to time, on DSG and in > my class, I talk of the joy I experience when doing dana, as part of > sila, or during my formal meditation but I find that it sometimes > comes across as "boasting". N: Please, Rob, help me to have more kusala citta. We are staying close to the teachings in mentioning our joy in dana or sila. It is one of the ten puññakiriya vatthus, bases of meritorious deeds to let others rejoice in your kusala, not hiding it. It may be unusual for Westerners, but when it is explained it is so simple. Not complicated. I cannot get enough of this subject, evenso of the brahmaviharas. It is so good to speak about simple advices for daily life, for the practice when we are with others. My Vis. and Tiika study leads me to all this even more. It is not preachy or boasting, why do you find yourself a hypocrite? Look, when we compare our cloths with someone else's there is already conceit, but this does not prevent us from practising what the Buddha taught, all kinds of kusala. It is good to realize how much conceit there is, and how much we take realities for self. That is why it is most helpful to develop kusala along with satipatthana. As to formal meditation, no need to refrain from writing what is not applauded to by others. Just write whatever you feel like writing. It can inspire those who disagree to consider more for themselves their own opinions. This is always a gain. It has also been my policy: to go on writing what I think is useful, even though I also was at times discouraged. Some time ago you said that you are thickskinned and it was on the tip of my tongue to say: can you teach me. Now the Brahmavihara of equanimity helps me a lot, but if you have good tips, it is always useful. I may meet difficult situations in the future, who knows? But it is better now with me, I did not mind Howard writing: Abhidhamma is theory, and anyway, he brought it carefully. No, on the contrary I welcome such remarks. They inspire me to make an extra effort to make the link to life in my study of the Vis. Tiika. To keep on pointing out the connection with daily life. Now to Philip on sila with joy! Philip, I was reflecting on your remarks about your coworkers and the bargirl. You said that you did not go to that bar, though hesitating at first. This is like the second kusala citta that is prompted, in my Tiika study just now (XIV, 84). Very useful example. But when confidence is stronger it can be the first type, spontaneous. With joy. I would like to encourage those who are downhearted about their own akusala. Take the example of the miserable bar girl. She is born a human being, result of kusala kamma. People should have respect for a fellow human being, not see her as an object of desire, should even help her to have kusala citta. Metta is the footing of the world. Respect for our Teacher, respect for our fellow human beings, and the Brahma viharas, those help much for observing sila with joy, with a natural effort, without the need of teeth gritting. And with satipatthana the doors are guarded without the need to force oneself. Philip, you mentioned that Rob K said:< nothing is more important than Dhamma - even if it were to cost me my marriage!> The Buddha gave excellent councils for laymen, for girls who would get married etc. The Brahmaviharas to be applied in marriage, that is the answer. You wrote: < When you answered "I do" did you mean always, or most of the time, or at times? Are you being very modest? I can see that it is best to be modest, but I would be encouraged if I read, for example, that you see kusala and akusala as not-self quite often! > In theory I understand that they are not self, but in the practice? I know that I have the underlying tendency and that self feeling about my akusala, my kusala, even when I do not expressively think in that way. I am a beginner, no stages of insight. What else would I expect. but this is not discouraging, I just trod on. It is important to be very honest with oneself. Ph: < Are there any recordings of K Sujin talking together with DSG members or other people in English?> I tried out a tape, but I found there were many blanks and the tape quality was not good. Most of mine are mixed English and Thai. I cannot do much now. I cannot answer all mails now, I give priority to my Tiika texts. Nina. 34396 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 7:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] temperaments. Dear Rob M, op 01-07-2004 15:25 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > By understanding our own caritas (one may have a > combination of caritas), we can select appropriate meditation > objects. N: We spoke about this in Bgk, A. Sujin said that it is impossible to know one's temperament without satipatthana, without the citta that appears now. Num wrote a very good post quoting the Guide, Netti, p. 247, years ago. It amounted to it that we have all defilements, all full of lobha, dosa and moha. He was reading it and laughing because of the repetitions that we have all in full. Nina. 34397 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 7:14am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 84, Pali/English Pali/English: Vis 84. yadaa hi deyyadhammapa.tiggaahakaadisampatti.m a~n~na.m vaa somanassahetu.m aagamma ha.t.thapaha.t.tho ``atthi dinna''ntiaadinayappavatta.m (ma0 ni0 1.441) sammaadi.t.thi.m purakkhatvaa asa.msiidanto anussaahito parehi daanaadiini pu~n~naani karoti, tadaassa somanassasahagata.m ~naa.nasampayutta.m citta.m asa"nkhaara.m hoti. yadaa pana vuttanayena ha.t.thatu.t.tho sammaadi.t.thi.m purakkhatvaa amuttacaagataadivasena sa.msiidamaano vaa parehi vaa ussaahito karoti, tadaassa tadeva citta.m sasa"nkhaara.m hoti. imasmi~nhi atthe sa"nkhaaroti eta.m attano vaa paresa.m vaa vasena pavattassa pubbapayogassaadhivacana.m. Tiika 84: Accompanied by pleasant feeling ************************** Eva.m a.t.tha kaamaavacarakusalacittaani uddisitvaa idaani tesa.m pavatti-aakaara.m dassetu.m ³yadaa hii²ti-aadi aaraddha.m. After he has explained the eight types of kusala cittas of the sense sphere, he said to begin with , in order to show now the way they are occurring. Tattha pa.tiggaahakaadisampattinti ettha aadi-saddena desakaalakalyaa.namittaadisampatti.m sa"nga.nhaati. In that case, as to the expression, or recipient, etc. (aadi), he summarizes with the word the favorable factors of place, time, good friendship and so on. A~n~na.m vaa somanassahetunti ettha a~n~naggaha.nena saddhaabahulataa, As to the expression, , here there are from another point of view the following factors: an abundance of confidence, visuddhadi.t.thitaa, kusalakiriyaaya aanisa.msadassaavitaa, purity of view, the fact of having seen the benefit of wholesome deeds, somanassapa.tisandhikataa, ekaadasa piitisambojjha"nga.t.thaaniyaa dhammaati evamaadiina.m sa"ngaho. a rebirth-consciousness with pleasant feeling, eleven factors that are the foundations for the enlightenment factor of rapture, thus is the treatment of these and so on. Accompanied by wisdom. Tiika: Aadinayappavattanti ettha aadi-saddena na kevala.m ³atthi yi.t.than²ti-aadiina.m (ma. ni. 1.441; 2.95) navanna.myeva sammaadi.t.thivatthuuna.m gaha.na.m, As to the expression , not all of the nine bases of right view are referred to by the words, there is offering, etc. , atha kho dhammavicayasambojjha"nga.t.thaaniyaadiinampi sa"ngaho veditabbo. and this should be seen also as the treatment of the foundation for the enlightenment factor of investigation of Dhamma. Purakkhatvaati pubba"ngama.m katvaa. As to the expression, by placing (right view) foremost, this means giving precedence to it. Ta~nca kho sahajaatapubba"ngamavasena ³manopubba"ngamaa dhammaa²ti-aadiisu (dha. pa. 1-2) viya sampayogassa adhippetattaa. And this has the meaning of association, with reference to precedence of what is conascent, as is said (in the Dhammapada, vs. 1,2), < Mind is the forerunner of dhammas..> Unprompted. ************ Asa.msiidantoti silokamacchariyaadivasena pu~n~nakiriyaaya.m sa.msiida.m sa"nkoca.m anaapajjanto, tena muttacaagataadi.m dasseti. As to the expression, unhesitatingly, the performing of meritorious deeds does not exhibit any hesitation that could be due to stinginess as to fame, and so on, and in this way he explains unhindered generosity etc... Anussaahitoti kenacipi na ussaahito. As to the expression not urged (by others), this means not prompted in any way. Sarasato hi pu~n~napa.tipattidassanamida.m. In this way he shows the practice of meritorious deeds with its essential properties. Parehiiti pana paaka.tussaahanadassana.m. As to the expression, (unurged) by others, by this he explains a natural effort. Daanaadiiniiti daana.m siila.m yaava di.t.thijukammanti imaani daanaadiini dasa pu~n~naani, As to the expression, daana and so on, this means: these are the ten meritorious deeds of generosity, morality up to the rectifying of one¹s views, daanaadiiniiti vaa daanasiilabhaavanaamayaani itaresampi sattanna.m etthevantogadhattaa. or daana, siila, mental development and also the other seven kinds are here implied in this way.... Assa pu~n~nacetanaasama"ngino. For him who is endowed with the intention of what is meritorious. Prompted. ******** Amuttacaagataa deyyadhamme saapekkhacittataa. With a mind that looks at the gifts that are to be given with restricted generosity. Aadi-saddena siilasamaadaanaadiisu anadhimuttataadi.m sa"nga.nhaati. By the word (through restricted generosity,) etc., he deals with lack of determination in the undertaking of morality and so on. Tadevaati somanassasahagataadinaa sadisataaya vutta.m... As to the expression, of the same kind, in a similar way citta is said to be accompanied by pleasant feeling etc. Imasmi~nhi attheti liinassa cittassa ussaahanapayogasa"nkhaate atthe. As to the expression, for in this sense, this means: a citta which is hesitant is called connected with urging on. Etanti ³sa"nkhaaro²ti eta.m pada.m... With reference to the word ³this², this is a word for prompting... **** Nina. 34398 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 7:14am Subject: dialogue about kusala. Dialogue about kusala with Lodewijk. I had typed out my Intro to Tiika Vis. XIV, 83 and the Wheel sutta I discussed with Lodewijk. He was surprised and impressed by the texts. He also finds that strong confidence in the Triple Gem is a cause of joy. We read that one of the wheels in the Wheel sutta is: to be well established in the right course. He said that one should pay attention to this from morning to evening. He said that he learns more now about all the conditions for kusala, and he finds it important that there are indeed conditions for the development of kusala. Kusala does not arise without the appropriate conditions. There is a concurrence of many conditions for its arising. Right reflection is one of the conditions. We should reflect in the right way about our kusala and akusala: they arise because of accumulated conditions and do not belong to us. We should not waste any opportunity for kusala, and especially kusala citta with paññaa. The realization of the truth is as difficult as stringing pearls in the dark by a lightning flash! The Expositor speaks about being well trained by constant practice of good as a condition for the arising of kusala citta. One of the conditions is also reading a sutta that instills confidence. Lodewijk read a sutta that impressed him very much: Gradual Sayings Book of the Ones, no 1: He also read no 10: Lodewijk finds that this instills confidence and that one should read this sutta every day. Nina. 34399 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 8:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Nori --- nori wrote: > hi jon & sarah, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott > wrote: > > Sarah and I read your post this morning while enjoying the very > pleasant > > feeling of the sun on our backs sitting high in the Swiss alps, > with a > > clear view of the Matterhorn, and in my case a lovely cup of coffe > to be > > enjoyed. There was a lot of pleasant feeling going on ;-)). > > > Jon > > Sounds nice. > > I often wonder whether arahats still 'take pleasure' in sense > objects. It is written many times in the suttas that those who 'know' > realize that pleasure is pain; it is one and the same (i.e. pleasure > will ultimately and inevitably turn to pain.) This idea often makes > me cautious of 'enjoying myself'. > > On the other hand, Buddha is quoted many times in the suttas saying > something like, "How pleasent is the moonlit night..." > > I don't know what to make of these contradictions. > > > metta, > nori A good point to raise. The objects experienced through the sense-doors (eye-door, body-door, etc) are intrinsically pleasant or unpleasant, depending on whether they are result of kusala kamma or akusala kamma, and this applies for everyone (ordinary person or arahant). Thus a pleasant night is a pleasant experience for all who are experiencing those particular sense-door objects (mainly through body and eye doors, I suppose). For the ordinary person such as ourselves, sense-door experiences are usually followed by akusala of one kind or another (pleasant object by attachment, unpleasant object by aversion). In the case of the arahant, however, since all latent tendencies to akusala have been eradicated, no akusala arises. 'Enjoying oneself' is of course akusala, but then akusala is the nature of the unenlightened being. The path taught by the Buddha is the developement of insight into the true nature of dhammas; it is this that leads to more kusala and less akusala in our lives. In other words, whatever the occasion (attachment to the pleasant feeling of the sun on our back, for example) the path remains the same: awareness of a presnetly arising dhamma. Jon 34400 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 8:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Nori) - > ... > ============================ > Just to relate this matter to the recent conversation between > Larry > and me on vedana, I do agree with what you say here, Jon. All contact, > mental as > well as physical, results in vedana. What I conjecture is that the > vedana > *directly* resulting from from mental, auditory, and visual contact is > always > neutral, but in a few steps there can be indirectly generated body-door > contact > with associated pleasant or unpleasant vedana. Thus, pleasant or > unpleasant > mind-door, eye-door, and ear-door vedana is actually directly associated > with > body-door contact resulting from the original mind-door, eye-door, or > ear-door > contact. Indirectly, however, it is still appropriate to refer to that > vedana as > mind-door, eye-door, or ear-door, as that was the original point of > genesis. > I do believe that body-door contact always mediates pleasant and > unpleasant > vedana. Of course, this belief is not something I'm "invested" in. It > just seems > right to me. If I'm wrong in this belief, well, so be it! ;-) > > With metta, > Howard An interesting theory ;-)), but what are it's practical implications, as you see them? Jon 34401 From: Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 4:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/4/04 11:28:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon (and Nori) - > > > ... > >============================ > > Just to relate this matter to the recent conversation between > >Larry > >and me on vedana, I do agree with what you say here, Jon. All contact, > >mental as > >well as physical, results in vedana. What I conjecture is that the > >vedana > >*directly* resulting from from mental, auditory, and visual contact is > >always > >neutral, but in a few steps there can be indirectly generated body-door > >contact > >with associated pleasant or unpleasant vedana. Thus, pleasant or > >unpleasant > >mind-door, eye-door, and ear-door vedana is actually directly associated > >with > >body-door contact resulting from the original mind-door, eye-door, or > >ear-door > >contact. Indirectly, however, it is still appropriate to refer to that > >vedana as > >mind-door, eye-door, or ear-door, as that was the original point of > >genesis. > >I do believe that body-door contact always mediates pleasant and > >unpleasant > >vedana. Of course, this belief is not something I'm "invested" in. It > >just seems > >right to me. If I'm wrong in this belief, well, so be it! ;-) > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > An interesting theory ;-)), but what are it's practical implications, as > you see them? ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: That's a very good question, Jon, one which I think we should always ask with regard to any theory, whether our own, or of commentators, or even as presented in Abhidhamma or Sutta. The Dhamma is a very practical matter, very pragmatic. One implication of this theory, should it be valid, is the importance, I think, of mindfulness of the body (and bodily sensation), an activity greatly emphasized by the Buddha and by many meditation teachers. If the theory is correct, close attention to bodily sensation places the mind right at a critical juncture point, a point at which arise pleasantness and unpleasantness, the feelings that lead to craving and aversion. ------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34402 From: Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 5:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84 Hi Nina, Welcome back. I'm in a bit of a muddle on exactly what feeling is. If I look at my own experience it seems that feeling is always bodily feeling, at least the pleasant and unpleasant kind. This bodily feeling seems to be both nama and rupa inseparable. When pleasant feeling arises with a consciousness of generosity I feel this feeling in my body. That can't be right. What is going on here? Larry 34403 From: Philip Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 5:30pm Subject: Patterns of papanca on dosa-arousing objects Hello all Please allow me to ramble a bit on the topic of papanca, which is still interesting me as I begin to learn about it. Hopefully some questions will arise. I was sitting outside a building on a busy street yesterday, waiting for Naomi, and found myself watching the people passing by with an increased awareness of what was going on in my mind. I saw how quickly my mind leaped out to see the visible object, label it and formed a judgement on it. (We know from the Honeyball Sutta and elsewhere in the Dhamma that feeling comes before perception, but I haven't figured that out yet. It seemed to me yesterday that I was labelling, and then having a feeling based on that perception. ) I really sensed how the thought process, and the papanca happened in a wink of an eye. I thought of the image of a frog's tongue flicking out quickly to capture something to label and consume, and then retreat. It was very interesting. And I could sense no way of stopping it except by looking at the ground, which I decided not to do. This followed on other musings about the thought process, and how papanca seems to follow tracks that have been laid down before. I was thinking about cockroaches. We see one, and the mind leaps out to perceive/label it, have an averse feeling (or have an averse feeling and perceive the object, correctly speaking) and based on that papancize some of us feel invaded and outraged and the killing ensues in a flash. If we live in a country where cockroaches are common, we have been through this so often that the papanca seems to happen automatically in a conditioned way. There is no gap in which wisdom can arise and lead us to do otherwise. But what if it is an insect that we are familiar with and perhaps feel averse to but have never seen in our kitchen before? What if it is a slug? We perceive it, and have an averse feeling, perhaps, but not as strong as with the cockroach, and then there is papanca, and maybe we don't feel as invaded or insulted, and then perhaps we don't "become a victim of (one's) pattern of thinking", as an introduction to the Honeyball Sutta by Thanissaro Bhikkhu ( I think) puts it. The slug is spared and placed on a branch outside, and we are spared that bad deed of killing and only have a bit of conceit instead. Papanca towards an insect in the kitchen has taken a more wholesome route. There was a gap in which wholesomeness could arise because the context of the contact was unfamiliar. And what if it's a shiny blue insect with yellow feelers and a big green nose that we have never seen before? The response will be an even fresher one. I mention cockroaches because I noticed that I haven't been killing them recently. I had read often enough about the precept about killing but always made a convenient exception for cockroaches and mosquitoes. (Still will for the latter, I'm afraid.) Now, something has happened in my thought process that allows a gap between the contact and the killing, which used to happen so quickly. I hadn't been thinking about not killing cockroaches. But I stopped doing it. After I realized I had stopped doing it I examined my papanca pattern about cockroaches and now saw that they don't bite me or Naomi and they don't really do anything so harmful. If you look closely, they aren't even particularly repulsive, with those cute feelers waving in the air. But this new way of papancizing on them came after not killing them, not before. So I don't know what happened to cause that new response of not killing them. Let me tell you about the rat-like dogs. Earlier this year, taking a walk in a nearby park, I realized with what aversion I react to people who have small, cute dogs with ribbons in their fur and maybe a little vest. They are not all rat-like actually, but I had always called them that. And resented the lavish attention their owners poured on them. Some kind of envy? Who knows? But walking that day I questioned my aversion, and the next day when I meditated/contemplated on the Brahma-Viharas, I designated these dogs as a source of aversion that I would "work on." This is a practice I had earlier this year, which I have since abandoned. So I contempatled these dogs and their owners in a friendly way. The next day when I saw them, a friendly feeling arose immediately. I had transformed that dosa in an intentional way. Or so it seemed to me then. Yesterday when I walked in the park for the first time in a couple of months, I came across the dogs, but my old aversion leaped up at first. A moment later, the more friendly papanca that I had intentionally conditioned arose on its own and kind of nudged the unfriendly one away. So the old pattern of thinking arose first, and then the latter one, (which hadn't become engrained enough to take precedence?) So I am seeing these thought processes as quick bursts of mental activity in which papanca always ensues, extending my stay in samsara. I can see that it is not skillful to try to reprogram these thought patterns as I did with the little dogs...or is it? Well, it's not possible in a lasting way. I think of teaching English as a Second Language. There is this notion of "fossilized language." People who have learned a language for awhile have developped grammatical patterns that cannot be corrected (if they are incorrect) because they have become fossilized and can't be eradicated - not in the short run, anyway. Trying to impose new patterns over the incorrect ones is a futile enterprise. Maybe something similar to that goes on when we try to "correct" our papanca. Well, enough rambling. Thanks for your time and any corrective comments. My wrong views on papanca aren't fossilized yet, hopefully. Metta, Phil 34404 From: Philip Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 5:50pm Subject: Re: Talk with Rob K conclusion Hi Ken Thanks for your kind words. Looking forward to hearing about your next meeting. I know it's foolish to hope for things we can't control, but I must admit I'm hoping that Rob's DSG sabbatical will be over soon. :) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Philip, > > Thank you for this excellent series with so many memorable quotes. > This one, for example, illustrates the Khanda Vagga Sutta (about the > tied-up dog) beautufully: > "Rob K: Wherever you go, whether it's left or right, you're stuck on > this post of self." > > The Queensland (Australian) DSG members will be meeting Robert next > month if all goes according to plan. If we can report back half as > well as you have, we'll be doing well. > > Kind regards, > Ken H 34405 From: Philip Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 6:14pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Victor, Herman and all V:> For reading the discourses, I think you might be interested in the > suggestions in the following article: > Befriending the Suttas > Some Suggestions for Reading > the Pali Discourses > by > John Bullitt > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/sutta101.html Ph: Thanks for yet more helpful links. Thay have increased my confidence about approaching suttas without getting caught up in conceit and self-view. (See, when I read a sutta now, there is always a strong awareness of "I'm getting wisdom here" as though it were something I could gather like acorns.) Ph:> It still feels sensible to me, > > and I have a keen interest in it, and keen interest should not be > > discouraged unless it is leading one into wrong view. > > > > V:> There is nothing wrong with pursuing a study in a subject, say, > psychology or physics. By pursuing a study in psychology, one gains > knowledge about human mind. By pursuing a study in physics, one > gains knowledge about matter and energy. Ph: Here as in a previous msg you seem to equate studying Abhidhamma with studying science though it is the Buddha's teaching, one of the the divisions of the Tipitaka. Have I misread you? I suppose there is some doubt in the community about the authenticity of the Abhidhamma. An familiar can of worms at DSG, I'm sure. Herman, hello. I'm still not convinced that the craving for nicotine, not matter how powerful and difficult to eradicate, can be compared to clinging to the khandas. The latter seems more subtle to me and would require more theoretical investigation at the beginning than kicking the cancer stick. No matter how powerful the craving to smoke, the smoker knows what needs to be done, exactly what needs to be done, eventually. He can say "I need to stop smoking!" and know then and there that if he can do that he will be done with smoking. Yes, he will find ways to fool himself, but he will still know what needs to be done eventually. There is a clear solution, no matter how difficult it is. In samsara, can we say "I need to stop clinging to the khandas!" and know what that means clearly without studying first? I don't think so, and I would propose that looking into Abhidhamma is the best way to learn about what the "khandas" are, and this basic understanding can be confirmed and deepened when the khandas are broached in suttas, and of course, more importantly, by examining our experience in the moment. But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one! And yes, it's true that I've never been addicted to nicotine, so can't really say... Anyways, thanks for the sutta. I'm appreciating your messages. Metta, Phil 34406 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 7:25pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Phil and all, I am saying that psychology is the science of the mind and with a pursuit of a study in psychology one can gains knowledge about the mind. Regarding khandha/aggregates, I think you might be interested in the following discourse: Samyutta Nikaya XXII.48 Khandha Sutta Aggregates http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-048.html Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Victor, Herman and all > > V:> For reading the discourses, I think you might be interested in > the > > suggestions in the following article: > > Befriending the Suttas > > Some Suggestions for Reading > > the Pali Discourses > > by > > John Bullitt > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/sutta101.html > > Ph: Thanks for yet more helpful links. Thay have increased my > confidence about approaching suttas without getting caught up in > conceit and self-view. (See, when I read a sutta now, there is always > a strong awareness of "I'm getting wisdom here" as though it were > something I could gather like acorns.) > > Ph:> It still feels sensible to me, > > > and I have a keen interest in it, and keen interest should not be > > > discouraged unless it is leading one into wrong view. > > > > > > > > > V:> There is nothing wrong with pursuing a study in a subject, say, > > psychology or physics. By pursuing a study in psychology, one > gains > > knowledge about human mind. By pursuing a study in physics, one > > gains knowledge about matter and energy. > > Ph: Here as in a previous msg you seem to equate studying > Abhidhamma with studying science though it is the Buddha's teaching, > one of the the divisions of the Tipitaka. Have I misread you? I > suppose there is some doubt in the community about the authenticity > of the Abhidhamma. An familiar can of worms at DSG, I'm sure. > > > Herman, hello. I'm still not convinced that the craving for > nicotine, not matter how powerful and difficult to eradicate, can be > compared to clinging to the khandas. The latter seems more subtle to > me and would require more theoretical investigation at the beginning > than kicking the cancer stick. No matter how powerful the craving to > smoke, the smoker knows what needs to be done, exactly what needs to > be done, eventually. He can say "I need to stop smoking!" and know > then and there that if he can do that he will be done with smoking. > Yes, he will find ways to fool himself, but he will still know what > needs to be done eventually. There is a clear solution, no matter how > difficult it is. In samsara, can we say "I need to stop clinging to > the khandas!" and know what that means clearly without studying > first? I don't think so, and I would propose that looking into > Abhidhamma is the best way to learn about what the "khandas" are, and > this basic understanding can be confirmed and deepened when the > khandas are broached in suttas, and of course, more importantly, by > examining our experience in the moment. > > But I guess we'll have to agree to disagree on that one! And yes, > it's true that I've never been addicted to nicotine, so can't really > say... > Anyways, thanks for the sutta. I'm appreciating your messages. > > Metta, > Phil 34407 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 7:59pm Subject: New File Uploaded - Attention: lurkers Hi All, I intend to publish a book, tentatively titled, "Abhidhamma - The Theory Behind the Buddha's Smile". I have loaded a 1st draft (there are still a few holes) into the Files section of DSG. There are many lurkers out there who have an interest in the Abhidhamma. I am particularly intrested in your input / feedback as the target audience for this book is not Abhidhamma scholars, but rather those who have a sincere desire to better understand the Abhidhamma with non-excessive usage of Pali or lists. Phil has agreed to help me improve the writing style and Christine has suggested that it be discussed at an upcoming Cooran weekend. I am looking forward to feedback from all of you. Not just on accuracy, but on presentation of the information, examples that might be included to illustrate points, areas that you feel were given too much or too little emphasis, confusing sections, etc.. Please do not send any feedback now as I will not be able to reply. I am scrambling to tie up some loose ends before I go on vacation in Europe for most of August. Please keep a record of your comments and then post (or email) them at the end of August. Metta, Rob M :-) 34408 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 9:37pm Subject: [dsg] Re: dana and sila Nina / Phil, This message really touched my heart. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Rob M and Philip, > op 01-07-2004 03:33 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > From time to time, on DSG and in > > my class, I talk of the joy I experience when doing dana, as part of > > sila, or during my formal meditation but I find that it sometimes > > comes across as "boasting". > N: Please, Rob, help me to have more kusala citta. We are staying close to > the teachings in mentioning our joy in dana or sila. It is one of the ten > puññakiriya vatthus, bases of meritorious deeds to let others rejoice in > your kusala, not hiding it. It may be unusual for Westerners, but when it is > explained it is so simple. Not complicated. I cannot get enough of this > subject, evenso of the brahmaviharas. It is so good to speak about simple > advices for daily life, for the practice when we are with others. My Vis. > and Tiika study leads me to all this even more. It is not preachy or > boasting, why do you find yourself a hypocrite? Look, when we compare our > cloths with someone else's there is already conceit, but this does not > prevent us from practising what the Buddha taught, all kinds of kusala. It > is good to realize how much conceit there is, and how much we take realities > for self. That is why it is most helpful to develop kusala along with > satipatthana. > As to formal meditation, no need to refrain from writing what is not > applauded to by others. Just write whatever you feel like writing. It can > inspire those who disagree to consider more for themselves their own > opinions. This is always a gain. It has also been my policy: to go on > writing what I think is useful, even though I also was at times discouraged. > Some time ago you said that you are thickskinned and it was on the tip of my > tongue to say: can you teach me. Now the Brahmavihara of equanimity helps me > a lot, but if you have good tips, it is always useful. I may meet difficult > situations in the future, who knows? But it is better now with me, I did not > mind Howard writing: Abhidhamma is theory, and anyway, he brought it > carefully. No, on the contrary I welcome such remarks. They inspire me to > make an extra effort to make the link to life in my study of the Vis. Tiika. > To keep on pointing out the connection with daily life. I am also inspired by Phil's on-line musings showing the connection between the Dhamma / Abhidhamma and daily life. I can use them as a model on how to present my experiences without giving a wrong impression. Thank you... thank you so much.... With great appreciation... Metta, Rob M :-) 34409 From: Ken O Date: Sun Jul 4, 2004 9:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: hello Hi Gislene It provide a good start but not a website I would recommend for reading good translation of the suttas. You may wish to read B Bodhi translation which unfortunately have to buy from the shelf due to copyright. Thats all Ken O 34410 From: buddhatrue Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 3:32am Subject: To Rob M- Brain Research and Zen Masters Friend Rob M, I don't know if you remember the discussion we had long ago about meditation and brain research, but I came across a piece of pertinent information. Previously, I had mentioned brain research on Zen Masters and it was suggested by a former member that no such research had ever been conducted on Zen Masters, only Tibetan Monks. You also suggested that you had mistakenly mentioned Zen Masters in one of your posts and so that must have given me the false idea about brain research and Zen Masters. However, it seems that I did remember the research correctly. It is referred to in this article: In 1963 a fascinating and unique report on Zen meditation was presented by Dr. Akira Kasamatsu and Dr. Tomio Hirai of the Department of Neuro-Psychiatry, Tokyo University. It contained the results of a ten-year study of the brain wave or electroencephalographic (EEG) tracings of Zen masters.[66,67] The EEG tracings revealed that about ninety seconds after an accomplished Zen practitioner begins meditation, a rhythmic slowing in the brain wave pattern known as alpha waves occurs. This slowing occurs with eyes open and progresses with meditation, and after thirty minutes one finds rhythmic alpha waves of seven or eight per second. This effect persists for some minutes after meditation. What is most significant is that this EEG pattern is notably different from those of sleep, normal waking consciousness, and hypnotic trance, and is unusual in persons who have not made considerable progress in meditation. In other words, it suggests an unusual mental state; though from the subjective reports of the practitioners, it does not appear to be a unique or highly unusual conscious experience. It was also found that a Zen master's evaluation of the amount of progress another practitioner had made correlated directly with the latter's EEG changes. Another finding of the same study concerned what is called alpha blocking and habituation. To understand these phenomena let us imagine that a person who is reading quietly is suddenly interrupted by a loud noise. For a few seconds his attention is diverted from the reading to the noise. If the same sound is then repeated a few seconds later his attention will again be diverted, only not as strongly nor for as long a time. If the sound is then repeated at regular intervals, the person will continue reading and become oblivious to the sound. A normal subject with closed eyes produces alpha waves on an EEG tracing. An auditory stimulation, such as a loud noise, normally obliterates alpha waves for seven seconds or more; this is termed alpha blocking. In a Zen master the alpha blocking produced by the first noise lasts only two seconds. If the noise is repeated at 15 second intervals, we find that in the normal subject there is virtually no alpha blocking remaining by the fifth successive noise. This diminution of alpha blocking is termed habituation and persists in normal subjects for as long as the noise continues at regular and frequent intervals. In the Zen master, however, no habituation is seen. His alpha blocking lasts two seconds with the first sound, two seconds with the fifth sound, and two seconds with the twentieth sound. This implies that the Zen master has a greater awareness of his environment as the paradoxical result of meditative concentration. One master described such a state of mind as that of noticing every person he sees on the street but of not looking back with emotional lingering. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel088.html#other Metta, James 34411 From: Dhammaasoka Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 4:39am Subject: Need clarification on a few subjects Dear all, Need your help again this time. I am folowing a nikaya sutta class leads by a reverend near my place. There are a few comments that he made surprise me in the sense that the comments are quite different with what I have studied and heard. I would like to hear your comments about them. I hope you all won't mind for the trouble. 1. Firstly, do we discerning the anicca lakhana when we are in Jhana? 2. What does sampajjano actually mean? Is it just knowing the object or with discernment on anicca? 3. Is the samatha and vipassana actually go together and can't be single out during our practice in satipatthana? (Without any magga or phala-citta) 4. The 11 ways of discerning the dhamma (pass, current, future, far, near... etc.) mentioned in suttas is for the purpose of understanding that the dhamma is always the same in every aspect and not meant for real discernment? 5. When Buddha mentioned that discern internally, discern externally, discern internally and externally in the Maha Satipatthana sutta, does He means discerning the six door as internally and the six respective object as externally and their relationship or process and internally and externally, or, does Buddha refer internally to ourselves and externally to others? 6. When Buddha said discerning the body as body, feeling as feeling ...etc, do we discern the body, feeling, cittas and dhamma through feeling? As the reverend said, through feeling that we feel the existence of the body, through the feeling we notice the state of mind and the dhamma as well. Is it the way interpreting the sutta? The reverend only accept words from Nikayas and not other than that. :) Need your maha karuna to help me to clear doubts. (Actually these are doubts arose in my friends as well) With metta, Lee 34412 From: Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 1:37am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: dana and sila Hi, Rob (and Nina, and Phil) - In a message dated 7/5/04 1:25:55 AM Eastern Daylight Time, rob.moult@j... writes: > Nina / Phil, > > This message really touched my heart. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom > wrote: > >Dear Rob M and Philip, > >op 01-07-2004 03:33 schreef robmoult op rob.moult@j...: > > > >>From time to time, on DSG and in > >>my class, I talk of the joy I experience when doing dana, as part > of > >>sila, or during my formal meditation but I find that it sometimes > >>comes across as "boasting". > >N: Please, Rob, help me to have more kusala citta. We are staying > close to > >the teachings in mentioning our joy in dana or sila. It is one of > the ten > >puññakiriya vatthus, bases of meritorious deeds to let others > rejoice in > >your kusala, not hiding it. It may be unusual for Westerners, but > when it is > >explained it is so simple. Not complicated. I cannot get enough of > this > >subject, evenso of the brahmaviharas. It is so good to speak about > simple > >advices for daily life, for the practice when we are with others. > My Vis. > >and Tiika study leads me to all this even more. It is not preachy or > >boasting, why do you find yourself a hypocrite? Look, when we > compare our > >cloths with someone else's there is already conceit, but this does > not > >prevent us from practising what the Buddha taught, all kinds of > kusala. It > >is good to realize how much conceit there is, and how much we take > realities > >for self. That is why it is most helpful to develop kusala along > with > >satipatthana. > >As to formal meditation, no need to refrain from writing what is not > >applauded to by others. Just write whatever you feel like writing. > It can > >inspire those who disagree to consider more for themselves their own > >opinions. This is always a gain. It has also been my policy: to go > on > >writing what I think is useful, even though I also was at times > discouraged. > >Some time ago you said that you are thickskinned and it was on the > tip of my > >tongue to say: can you teach me. Now the Brahmavihara of equanimity > helps me > >a lot, but if you have good tips, it is always useful. I may meet > difficult > >situations in the future, who knows? But it is better now with me, > I did not > >mind Howard writing: Abhidhamma is theory, and anyway, he brought it > >carefully. No, on the contrary I welcome such remarks. They inspire > me to > >make an extra effort to make the link to life in my study of the > Vis. Tiika. > >To keep on pointing out the connection with daily life. > > I am also inspired by Phil's on-line musings showing the connection > between the Dhamma / Abhidhamma and daily life. I can use them as a > model on how to present my experiences without giving a wrong > impression. > > Thank you... thank you so much.... With great appreciation... > > Metta, > Rob M :-) > ============================== Just to add my two cents publically, Rob: You are blessed in finding joy in dana, and, from my observation, you are so generous in your dana, which expresses itself in manifold ways including giving of yourself, your time, and your effort, as well as monetarily, that you bring great joy to others. You provide to others the joy of receiving dana so selflessly and naturally given, and you also provide the wonderful opportunity of the joy of muditaa in observing your generosity of spirit and deed. With metta, Howard P.S. Nina, I'm happy that what I wrote was well received by you. I lean much more to the suttas than to Abhidhamma, and you tend more towards the opposite. But I greatly value your teachings of applying Abhidhamma in daily life, and I admire your dedication to so generously and teaching the Dhamma, especially your providing a view of Abhidhamma that makes difficult and dry material way more understandable and consumable. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34413 From: Gis Lene Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 8:32am Subject: thanks Hi Ken and all DSG. Last weekend I took the time to look for information about theravada and buddhism in Brazil and I found a very good discussion group named Nalanda. I read about that and realised I did a lot of mistakes because I was mixing Theravada with Tantra Buddhism. Sorry, I am in the first step of learning. Now I realised that are four "schools" (tantra, zen, theravada and terra pura) working in Brazil with a lot of temples. There are books translated into portuguese and others in english. So I have a lot of things to learn and pratice. What I really liked in the Theravada tradition (as it was presented in Nalanda website) it is the emphasis on the study of the holly texts plus meditation plus pratices and others. On the other hand I could not understand why the buddhism was shared into that "shools". The mains principles were the same (the Buddha`s words). For me it sounds very very good just say buddhism and try to learn and pratice the principles that are very simple but very hard to do in ordinary life, also. Being just a buddhist is hard because it involve to act up traditions and to act just with compassion. I am in the first step and a lot of thinks are difficult to understand right now but I suppose that is a very good way to live in the world where everyday people are invited to be selfish, cruel and no ethical. I think buddhism is a path against all of those thinks because it put the responsability to change in ours hands, in ours everyday commitment. I don´t believe in any kind of energy, God or Goodness who do the thinks for us; faith or philosopshy (what else) to act to remove from us the responsability to change the world, the live and act with our freedom. I suppose in buddhism the human acts and received/took it back according those actions. But today I don´t know how you can do this in differents ways in those many shools yet. So, let me study more. Many thanks for the welcomes and for the books and sites suggested. It will be very helped for me now. Gislene. >From: Ken O >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: hello >Date: Mon, 5 Jul 2004 05:48:05 +0100 (BST) > >Hi Gislene > >It provide a good start but not a website I would recommend for >reading good translation of the suttas. You may wish to read B Bodhi >translation which unfortunately have to buy from the shelf due to >copyright. > > > > >Thats all >Ken O > > > > 34414 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 9:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 7/4/04 11:28:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > That's a very good question, Jon, one which I think we should > always > ask with regard to any theory, whether our own, or of commentators, or > even as > presented in Abhidhamma or Sutta. The Dhamma is a very practical matter, > very > pragmatic. One implication of this theory, should it be valid, is the > importance, I think, of mindfulness of the body (and bodily sensation), > an activity > greatly emphasized by the Buddha and by many meditation teachers. If the > theory > is correct, close attention to bodily sensation places the mind right at > a critical juncture point, a point at which arise pleasantness and > unpleasantness, > the feelings that lead to craving and aversion. It is made clear in the Satipatthana Sutta that there are 4 'foundations of mindfulness'. One of these is of course the body, but there is no suggestion of the body being a 'critical juncture'. In what sense do you see a moment of mindfulenss of the body as being of more value than a moment of midfulness of, say, attachmnet or aversion? Jon 34415 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 9:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi, Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Christine and all, ... > > He also taught in the very first verse of the Dhammapada: > > "Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind- > > made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, because of > > that, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of > > the draught-ox." > > > The verse above is about right view on kamma/intention/action. I'm not saying I disagree with this comment, but I wonder how you come to this conclusion if not by drawing certain inferences. I am of course referring back to our earlier discussion on this subject and the need for a knowledge of the texts generally in reading individual suttas. The fact is that the Dhammapada verse itself makes no reference to right view on kamma/intention/action. Actually, some of the (seemingly simple) Dhammapada verses are the most obscure in terms of suttas whose meaning needs to be drawn out. Jon 34416 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 9:52am Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Jon and all, Thank you for this message. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > Hi Christine and all, > ... > > > He also taught in the very first verse of the Dhammapada: > > > "Mind is the forerunner of (all evil) states. Mind is chief; mind- > > > made are they. If one speaks or acts with wicked mind, because of > > > that, suffering follows one, even as the wheel follows the hoof of > > > the draught-ox." > > > > > > The verse above is about right view on kamma/intention/action. > > I'm not saying I disagree with this comment, but I wonder how you come to > this conclusion if not by drawing certain inferences. I am of course > referring back to our earlier discussion on this subject and the need for > a knowledge of the texts generally in reading individual suttas. The fact > is that the Dhammapada verse itself makes no reference to right view on > kamma/intention/action. Actually, some of the (seemingly simple) > Dhammapada verses are the most obscure in terms of suttas whose meaning > needs to be drawn out. > > Jon 34417 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: contact and feeling Hi Howard, op 30-06-2004 14:21 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: Honeyball sutta:> ___________________________ > Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three > is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one > feels, one perceives. What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks > about, one complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & > categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, present, & > future > forms cognizable via the eye. > ----------------------------------------------- >======================== Nina, I certainly agree with this, but only in a restricted sense. The "knowing" that is necessary for the liking or disliking is a (proliferated) conceptual knowing, and not mere sa~n~na. (Contact directly yields "liking or disliking" only in the sense of experiencing as pleasant or unpleasant, i.e., vedana, but not in the sense of reactive desire or aversion.) In the Honeyball Sutta, there is the following: ___________________________ Dependent on eye & forms, eye-consciousness arises. The meeting of the three is contact. With contact as a requisite condition, there is feeling. What one feels, one perceives. What one perceives, one thinks about. What one thinks about, one complicates. Based on what a person complicates, the perceptions & categories of complication assail him/her with regard to past, present, & future forms cognizable via the eye. ----------------------------------------------- Certainly in the standard scheme of dependent origination there is given the dependency phassa --> vedana --> tanha. But the Honeyball Sutta focuses more finely, I believe, on the vedana --> tanha conditioning link. I think it is important to note that it is not sa~n~na that conditions vedana, but vedana that conditions sa~n~na, and that the sa~n~na itself needs to first expand and proliferate in order for tanha to arise. The detail given there can be represented, I think, as follows: contact --> feeling --> recognition (sa~n~na) --> mulling over --> conceptual complication (papa~nca) --> craving/aversion (tanha) and clinging (upadana) with regard to things remembered, "current" things, and envisioned future things. N: This is all correct but it does not deal with the moment to moment happenings nor with the simultaneous arising of different dhammas that condition one another by conascent condition. We have to be careful when reading a sutta under what angle, what heading dhammas are explained. Contact and feeling accompany each citta and fall away with the citta. It is explained in the Visuddhimagga that contact conditions feeling by being conascent. You can check with Ledi Sayadaw. As to the Honeyball Sutta: this describes what happens in different processes of citta. As Ken H explained: there can be lobha and dosa also in sense-door processes, this is taught in Abh. and commentaries in detail. Nina. 34418 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Howard, I wonder whether I could clarify a few points about the Abhidhamma. op 03-07-2004 13:55 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > Moreover, it seems to me that much important teaching material of the suttas, > especially in terms of skillful means of presenation, is missing from the > Abhidhamma, and, conversely, much superfluous material irrelevant to the task > of > liberation - and some of it questionable - is included in the Abhidhamma. In > its (not fully realized) attempt at completeness, the Abhidhamma includes many > leaves of the forest that are not among the useful ones held in the Buddha's > hand. N: Here the trouble could be in missing out the relevant commentaries. The Dhammasangani should be read together with the Expositor (Atthasaalinii). Without this one may get lost. The Vibhanga, Book of Analysis, should be read together with the Dispeller of Delusion (I and II). If you have time and interest you could perhaps indicate where you find the Abh questionable or superfluous. H: Nina and her teacher, Khun Sujin, > wisely > teach not making this substitution. They emphasize "Abhidhamma in Daily Life" > which, as I understand it, uses the Abhidhamma as a guide to ongoing mindful > watching of dhammas as they arise and cease, displaying the tilakkhana that > constitute their common nature. N: is not the way A. Sujin teaches. There could be a self watching. The dhammas are elements that display their own characteristics and as you agree, nobody can direct them. Sati is not to be emphasized, but understanding. Ongoing mindfulness: difficult term. It seems unnatural. True, through insight that is developed there comes a time that sati and pañña have become powers, balava vipassana. At the first principal stage of insight: sati can arise no matter when and where. I assure you, I am far from that stage. Nina. 34419 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings Hi Larry, op 05-07-2004 02:12 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I'm in a bit of a muddle on exactly what feeling is. If I > look at my own experience it seems that feeling is always bodily > feeling, at least the pleasant and unpleasant kind. N: Let's start with the four jaatis: kusala, akusala, vipaka, kiriya. Four classes concerning the nature of citta and cetasikas. Bodily feeling is vipaka, it accompanies the vipakacitta that is body-consciousness. Bodyconsciousness experiences only tangible object: hardness, softness, heat, cold, motion, pressure. It only lasts for one extremely short moment. So does the accompanying feeling that can be pleasant or painful. However, this has nothing to do with like or dislike, it is only vipaka and then gone immediately. In that same process, body-door process, javanacittas (impulsion) are following, and these can be kusala cittas or akusala cittas, experiencing the hardness, softness, etc. with wise attention or with unwise attention, for example with like or dislike. Then a mind-door process follows, experiencing the same object with the same type of javana cittas as the preceding sense-door process. L: This bodily feeling > seems to be both nama and rupa inseparable. When pleasant feeling arises > with a consciousness of generosity I feel this feeling in my body. That > can't be right. What is going on here? N: Pleasant feeling with generosity: can we be sure? Since cittas succeed one another so fast there is bound to be citta rooted in attachment with pleasant feeling shortly after the kusala citta. The different jatis are essential but difficult to distinguish them from one another. Anyway, cittas condition rupa as you correctly said to Howard. Many examples of this. This means; citta and the accompanying cetasikas can originate rupa. The Vis explains the degrees of rapture (under jhanafactors): this can be hair raising, conditioning rupas. Thrilled about music, maybe tears. Generosity: smiling, that is rupa produced by citta and cetasikas. Fear, nervousness, anger: condition rupas, maybe hardness. Exertion conditons heat. Citta originates rupas from head to toe, but we know all this by inference, it is very common. We should not attach so much importance to them. I do not think it is useful to pay much attention to all those rupas or try to find out what conditions what. We are noticing and thinking about them, but they have already gone. Nama and rupa all the time, but difficult to know their different characteristics. It may seem that bodily feeling appears, but can we be sure? Just one moment of vipakacitta, not connected with like or dislike. Or is it body-consciousness? Just one moment of vipaka, not connected with like or dislike. Or is it clinging to rupa, or clinging to pleasant mental feeling? There are so many different namas and rupas. All of them can be objects of clinging with or without wrong view. That is why it is essential to know first: what is nama and what is rupa, not just in theory, but by insight. This is the first stage. Otherwise there is no way of entangling them. They cannot be known as they are immediately, but they have to be investigated little by little, without naming them. Seven rupas appear all the time: the sense objects. Tangible object includes three rupas, that is why there are seven. They should be investigated when they appear. They appear just now, they are not theory! They do not know anything, they are different from nama. Sarah quoted in her post: Trying to find out by reasoning and thinking can be most confusing, we can't anyway. If we try to catch things it will always be: . The clinging to self will not go away and we shall be further and further away from the truth. Trying to find out too much about feelings and rupas is contraproductive to right understanding, and there will be doubts about them: is it this, is it that? Such attitude makes our lives very complicated. All those objects are really insignificant, gone immediately. Only pañña can know them as they are. But first we have to know: is it nama or is it rupa? Not by reasoning but through direct experience. That uncomplicates our life. I do not believe that we mostly cling to feelings, but we cling to all objects through six doors. Not only through mind-door. We can find this also in the suttas. We cling to self and mine most of all. Clinging can also be accompanied by indifferent feeling and those are the moments we do not notice. Not knowing that there are such moments is dangerous. It can give rise to a distorted view of reality. There can be clinging with indifferent feeling just after seeing or hearing. We have no notion of the countless moments of clinging in a day. You said to Howard: It is one of the seven cetasikas arising with each citta, but it is very difficult to know its characteristic. First the difference between nama and rupa has to be realized. Contact is real, but it depends on sati and pañña of the individual whether it appears or not. Not everybody may realize contact as it is. Perhaps it is fitting if I say something now about theory and Abhidhamma. The Abhidhamma teaches about seeing, hearing, attachment, etc. about everything that occurs in life, and that is certainly not theory. But it comes across as theory so long as all these realities have not been investigated through satipatthana. Heard on MP3: someone wanted to know about the four jatis of kusala, akusala, vipaka and kiriya. Answer: first you have to know the nature of citta, what citta is. There is citta at this moment, seeing or hearing arise time and again. Citta is the element that knows or experiences. Thus, without satipatthana the Abhidhamma may seem to be theory. Nina. 34420 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 11:00am Subject: Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi Lee and all, What are the comments the reverend made that suprise you? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" wrote: > Dear all, > > Need your help again this time. > > I am folowing a nikaya sutta class leads by a reverend near my > place. There are a few comments that he made surprise me in the > sense that the comments are quite different with what I have studied > and heard. I would like to hear your comments about them. I hope you > all won't mind for the trouble. > > 1. Firstly, do we discerning the anicca lakhana when we are in Jhana? > 2. What does sampajjano actually mean? Is it just knowing the object > or with discernment on anicca? > 3. Is the samatha and vipassana actually go together and can't be > single out during our practice in satipatthana? (Without any magga > or phala-citta) > 4. The 11 ways of discerning the dhamma (pass, current, future, far, > near... etc.) mentioned in suttas is for the purpose of > understanding that the dhamma is always the same in every aspect and > not meant for real discernment? > 5. When Buddha mentioned that discern internally, discern externally, > discern internally and externally in the Maha Satipatthana sutta, > does He means discerning the six door as internally and the six > respective object as externally and their relationship or process > and internally and externally, or, does Buddha refer internally to > ourselves and externally to others? > 6. When Buddha said discerning the body as body, feeling as > feeling ...etc, do we discern the body, feeling, cittas and dhamma > through feeling? As the reverend said, through feeling that we feel > the existence of the body, through the feeling we notice the state > of mind and the dhamma as well. Is it the way interpreting the sutta? > > The reverend only accept words from Nikayas and not other than > that. :) > > Need your maha karuna to help me to clear doubts. (Actually these are > doubts arose in my friends as well) > > > With metta, > Lee 34421 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 11:00am Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Dear Ken and all, I am happy to see my post stimulated some very interesting discussions. Ken, I'm not going to address your comments individually like I have in the past. I have come to see that our discussion hinges on whether one believes the "ultimate realities" described in the Abhidhamma are really ultimate realities or just concepts stripped from the suttas and organized in a way as to define them and remove any ambiguity as to their meaning (as concepts). You are right in assuming that I do not believe in the ultimate reality of citta, cetasika, and rupa (and probably not the nibbana defined in the Abhidhamma). Ironically, we have unwittingly ventured down the same line of discussion that originally led Moggaliputta-tissa to write his Kathavatthu. Based on the fact that this text was later elevated to Canonical status, we must agree that clearly the philosophical themes discussed in this work should be consistent with the philisophical temper of the rest of the Abhidhamma. The Kathavatthu's contribution was precisely in eliminating the absolutist, essentialist, or reductionist perspectives. "No one reading the excessively long debate in the Kathavatthu on the conception of a person could assert that the Abhidhamma deals with ultimate realities." (Kalupahana in A History of Buddhist Philosophy, p145) Eliminating this belief in "ultimate realities," one is able to explain the contents of the Abhidhamma in terms of the two main teachings of the Buddha, namely anatta and paticcasamuppada. So then what's the point of exhaustive list of psychological factors in the Abhidhamma? Well, any attempt to list all the physical and psychological constituents of human experience would leave us with a pile of discrete entities so large it would fill the oceans. The Abhidhamma attempts to glean from the discourses of the Buddha, the essential concepts and terms and lists them by how they relate to one another via various classification schemes (i.e. the four noble truths, five skandhas, etc). The fact that the Sarvastivadins and the Theravadins compiled different lists shows that their respective compilers took only what they thought were significant elements. The vibhanga then is an analytical process attempting to determine the contextual meaning of a concept. Thus giving any ultimate reality to these concepts, consists in just the type of wrong view being discussed by Moggaliputta-tissa in the Kathavatthu and by later Buddhists in the perfection of wisdom literature (Vajracchedika). Furthermore, it must be seen by the student of Abhidhamma that giving absolute status to such concepts is not in line with the Buddha's teaching on anatta. This is where I see the value in the Abhidhamma; it goes to great lengths to try and determine the meanings and applications of the concepts the Buddha used in the teachings while at the same time trying to maintain their non-substantiality. An undertaking that I truly value, but see no purpose in trying to replicate. Friends, the study and practice of the Dhamma-vinaya comes in many flavors. Some prefer a sound theoretical understanding before even attempting meditation practice. Some have an affinity with jnana and can attain deep levels of concentration, but are unable to use that power to cultivate discernment (panna) or insight (vipassana). It is from this observation, that I see a balance is necessary. And please remember that Buddhism is a tradition spanning twenty-five centuries not just the first five. The problem of absolutism or essentialism came up while the Buddha was alive and still come up today. Through faith in the teachings and sustained and effortful practice of the Eight-fold path, I believe we can all uproot our defilements and kilesas and cross over to the other shore. Once there, however, we must leave even the Dhamma behind. I'm reminded of a Zen saying that goes something like this: "If you see the Buddha walking down the road, kill him." May we all radiate love and wisdom. Bhinnatta 34422 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Need clarification on a few subjects Dear Lee, I take out only a few points, you have many interesting points. op 05-07-2004 13:39 schreef Dhammaasoka op dasoka@n...: > > 1. Firstly, do we discerning the anicca lakhana when we are in Jhana? N: The jhanacittas have absorption concentration with pañña on one of the meditation subjects of samatha. anicca lakhana is the object of vipassana. L: 2. What does sampajjano actually mean? Is it just knowing the object > or with discernment on anicca? N: with sampajañña or pañña (another term for sampajañña), that can be of the level of samatha or of vipassana. So it depends what the object is. If it is the realization of impermanence it is vipassana pañña. L: 3. Is the samatha and vipassana actually go together and can't be > single out during our practice in satipatthana? (Without any magga > or phala-citta) N: When vipassana is developed there is also calm, samatha, with the citta. The factors of the eightfold Path which are samadhi, sati and right effort are actually the concentration of the eightfold Path. But mind: the object is a nama or rupa that appears. The term: our practice in satipatthana is confusing. It seems that there is a set time, whereas satipatthana is just the development of understanding of any, any reality that appears now, no matter where we are. Any object, also akusala! L: . The 11 ways of discerning the dhamma (pass, current, future, far, > near... etc.) mentioned in suttas is for the purpose of > understanding that the dhamma is always the same in every aspect and > not meant for real discernment? N: These 11 ways are said of the five khandhas, they are past present, future, near, far, coarse, subtle, etc . What has a past, present and future arises and falls away, it is impermanent. They are objects of understanding, they are another way of presenting the ultimate realities of citta, cetasika and rupa (not for the reverend!). L: 5. When Buddha mentioned that discern internally, discern externally, > discern internally and externally in the Maha Satipatthana sutta, > does He means discerning the six door as internally and the six > respective object as externally and their relationship or process > and internally and externally, or, does Buddha refer internally to > ourselves and externally to others? N: As I understand, the last one. You may be touching another's body and then just hardness presents itself, no person. Or the other person's sadness appears, this brings you back to your own citta, and the way you feel about his sadness. It is a reminder. All these aspects are reminders to bring you back to nama and rupa now. L: 6. When Buddha said discerning the body as body, feeling as > feeling ...etc, do we discern the body, feeling, cittas and dhamma > through feeling? As the reverend said, through feeling that we feel > the existence of the body, through the feeling we notice the state > of mind and the dhamma as well. Is it the way interpreting the sutta? N: No, I do not see it this way. It is sati that is aware and pañña that understands. Understanding has to be emphasized all the time. It has to be sharp and keen, and know precisely the nama or rupa that appears through one of the six doors, one at a time. L: The reverend only accept words from Nikayas and not other than > that. :) N: I see! We need not mention any sources, let us just talk about realities. We can call them in terms of the khandhas. Very interesting questions. Any more? Nina. 34423 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 11:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: hello Hi Ken O, Welcome back. I am really glad to see you. I was wondering whether I should write to you but thought that you might be busy. I was asking Lodewijk: shall I write to him, or is this bothering him? Nina. op 05-07-2004 06:48 schreef Ken O op ashkenn2k@y...: > Hi Gislene > > It provide a good start 34424 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 11:26am Subject: Re: Jhana Factors in Suttas Hi Rob, Five-factored noble right concentration is taught in AN V.28: Samadhanga Sutta. Access to Insight has a translation at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-028.html If you want the orginial pali the link is http://www.tipitaka.org/tipitaka/s0403m1/s0403m1-frm.html then click on chapter five from the drop down menu: Mundarajavaggo. Metta, Bhinnatta *************************************************** Hi All, I just finished delivering my first of four weekly 2-hour talks on Abhidhamma. During the break, I met Lee (a DSG member) and he asked me if I was aware of any Sutta references that explicitly listed the five Jhana factors in the first Jhana. I admit that I have not spent much time studying jahanas. I am hoping that some other DSG member may have the reference handy. Metta, Rob M :-) 34425 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 0:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Nina > N: Here the trouble could be in missing out the relevant >commentaries. The > Dhammasangani should be read together with the Expositor >(Atthasaalinii). > Without this one may get lost. >------------------------------------------------------------------- Very interesting! Despite my endemic lack of free time, I managed to download excerpts of the Vinaya at my Palm. I've read all the Mahavagga Vinaya and now I've got a new and more accurate viewpoint of many aspects of the Buddhadhamma. Its initial passages are a treasure of real understanding and lighted up a spotlight on many passages on Dhammasangani and other suttas. First of all, Buddha hadn't get his ideas out of nowhere: the everyday practice and a careful application of his own concepts were paramount for the edification of his corpus of knowledge. One can catch up that the Dependent origination, the four Noble truths and the Three main modes of expression were the roots of all Buddha's effort to preach Dhamma and put it in practice ( the Mahavagga makes the stand that the Patimokkha is the one and Real Dhamma of all, because its mandatory recitation in all Uposatha activities). There are also commentaries about the Mahavagga, written by Buddhaghosa ... I will check it out if I have got these at my own recollection of Buddhistic works!!!No single passage of suttas, vinaya, abhidhamma or commentaries can be spared off without lack of understanding of the whole!!! ---------------------------------------------------------------------- The Vibhanga, Book of Analysis, should be > read together with the Dispeller of Delusion (I and II). If you have time > and interest you could perhaps indicate where you find the Abh questionable > or superfluous. --------------------------------------------------------------------- Not ours for sure!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34426 From: Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 8:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/5/04 12:48:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > > > >In a message dated 7/4/04 11:28:25 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > >jonoabb@y... writes: > > > > That's a very good question, Jon, one which I think we should > >always > >ask with regard to any theory, whether our own, or of commentators, or > >even as > >presented in Abhidhamma or Sutta. The Dhamma is a very practical matter, > >very > >pragmatic. One implication of this theory, should it be valid, is the > >importance, I think, of mindfulness of the body (and bodily sensation), > >an activity > >greatly emphasized by the Buddha and by many meditation teachers. If the > >theory > >is correct, close attention to bodily sensation places the mind right at > >a critical juncture point, a point at which arise pleasantness and > >unpleasantness, > >the feelings that lead to craving and aversion. > > It is made clear in the Satipatthana Sutta that there are 4 'foundations > of mindfulness'. One of these is of course the body, but there is no > suggestion of the body being a 'critical juncture'. > > In what sense do you see a moment of mindfulenss of the body as being of > more value than a moment of midfulness of, say, attachmnet or aversion? > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Mindfulness of all dhammas is important. What you asked was what of pragmatic value might be drawn from the hypothesis that pleasant and unpleasant vedana are the direct results only of *body* contact. My answer is that if this is so (though it well might not be), then mindfulness of body-door objects places the mind directly at the point that sukkha and dukkha vedana arise, whereas mindfulness of other sense doors would be less directly targeted at that point. ----------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34427 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 1:10pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings Hi Nina! > Thus, without satipatthana the Abhidhamma may seem to > be theory. ------------------------------------------------------------------ All the Abhidhamma's commentaries in a Nutshell!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34428 From: Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 10:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/5/04 1:59:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > I wonder whether I could clarify a few points about the Abhidhamma. > op 03-07-2004 13:55 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >Moreover, it seems to me that much important teaching material of the > suttas, > >especially in terms of skillful means of presenation, is missing from the > >Abhidhamma, and, conversely, much superfluous material irrelevant to the > task > >of > >liberation - and some of it questionable - is included in the Abhidhamma. > In > >its (not fully realized) attempt at completeness, the Abhidhamma includes > many > >leaves of the forest that are not among the useful ones held in the > Buddha's > >hand. > N: Here the trouble could be in missing out the relevant commentaries. The > Dhammasangani should be read together with the Expositor (Atthasaalinii). > Without this one may get lost. The Vibhanga, Book of Analysis, should be > read together with the Dispeller of Delusion (I and II). --------------------------------------------------- Howard: That is a very good point, Nina. -------------------------------------------------- If you have time> > and interest you could perhaps indicate where you find the Abh questionable > or superfluous. ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I've raised such matters before, several times, and I'd rather not overly get into that. What is useful (as I see it) in the Abhidhamma far outweighs what might be viewed by some as superfluous. ------------------------------------------------ > H: Nina and her teacher, Khun Sujin, > >wisely > >teach not making this substitution. They emphasize "Abhidhamma in Daily > Life" > >which, as I understand it, uses the Abhidhamma as a guide to ongoing > mindful > >watching of dhammas as they arise and cease, displaying the tilakkhana that > >constitute their common nature. > N: is not the way A. Sujin teaches. There could > be a self watching. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: No, there couldn't be, as there is no self! ;-)) I certainly agree, and I know this is what you meant, that there could be the *seeming* of an observer. But that will be the case until perfect enlghtenment! We shouldn't let that fact dissuade us from paying as close attention as possible to what arises and ceases. ------------------------------------------------ The dhammas are elements that display their own> > characteristics and as you agree, nobody can direct them. Sati is not to be > emphasized, but understanding. Ongoing mindfulness: difficult term. It seems > unnatural. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Mundane knowledge of Dhamma certainly comes first. However, sati must be cultivated, leading, along with other factors, to pa~n~na. But perhaps I should have better said "careful attention" instead of "mindful watching". I do believe that it is central to Buddhist practice to *attempt* to carefully attend to what arises, observing it with as much clarity and equanimity as one can muster. ----------------------------------------------- True, through insight that is developed there comes a time that> > sati and pañña have become powers, balava vipassana. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: But one must begin somewhere, and that somewhere is wherever one is *right now*, in a state of delusion and overwhelmed by sense of self and own-being. -------------------------------------------------- At the first principal> > stage of insight: sati can arise no matter when and where. I assure you, I > am far from that stage. > Nina. > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34429 From: Philip Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 3:49pm Subject: Re: To Rob M- Brain Research and Zen Masters Hi James, and all Welcome back, James. Hope you had a pleasant holiday. Speaking of the neurological benefits of meditation, there was this study reported at BBC: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/health/2725487.stm I sometimes thought about this study when I wondered what I was giving up by not applying myself seriously to meditation, but then wondered if my interest wasn't based on wanting to develop a healthier brain, which might not be any wiser than wanting to develop a healthier body. And then again, it might be. :) Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Friend Rob M, > > I don't know if you remember the discussion we had long ago about > meditation and brain research, but I came across a piece of > pertinent information. 34430 From: Philip Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Victor, and all. V: > Regarding khandha/aggregates, I think you might be interested in the > following discourse: > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.48 > Khandha Sutta > Aggregates > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-048.html Ph: Thanks for this, Victor. Actually, I think it provides a confirmation, for me, that it was helpful to learn about rupa and nama through Nina's books and currently the aggregates through Ch XIV of Visudhimagga before studying suttas in an applied way. When I first read about khandas a couple of years ago I looked through suttas to find more about what it means - probably through the subject index at access to insight, or Professor Google. And probably read the sutta you kindly linked me to. But it is really hard to understand, just words, without at least a basic knowledge of processes of cittas, in my opinion. Now when I read it I have at least a little bit more clear idea of what is being referred to in the sutta. But that is me. We all have different accumulations and conditions that make different approaches right. BTW, thanks again for the Path to Freedom link. I am finding wonderfully helpful suttas there. Metta, Phil 34431 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 4:12pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma First of all, this post is not about Nina!!!!!!!! Now, on with it. Hi, I have a confession to make. I have never read the Abhidhamma. Not a single skeric of it. Not in an other language, and not in English. I have read synopses of the Abhidhamma, I have read what others have written about the Abhidhamma (some omit to say whether they are commenting on the Abhidhamma or on a synopsis), and I have read what others have written about what others have written to the nth degree (some omit to say whether they are commenting on a 3rd, 4th, 5th or nth source). Yet I hold a view about the Abhidhamma (a dismissive one). Silly, isn't it? NO, IT ISN'T. Because what I read the Abhidhamma purports to be about (it's primary source) I do have ready and frequent access to. And I see no connection between the primary source (reality) and the Abhidhamma. Some take pride in how wordy the Abhidhamma is. Yet when there is awareness of the primary source of the Abhidhamma (reality) there is not a single word in sight !!! Strange indeed that it should take so many words to describe something so totally non-verbal. The present moment is such a living, fluctuating reality, yet someone imagined this could be captured in a valley of dry bones. Weird, totally weird. Some take pride in how difficult it is to master the Abhidhamma, they take pride in just how many commentaries, and which ones, are necessary to shed light on the intricate and subtle meanings in this great intellectual masterpiece. And yet, somehow untangling this web of words is considered a safer bet than mental silence, because in mental silence there could be a self?? Awareness of the present moment rises and falls with it. One needs to be quiet to see the ego struggle with its non-existence. Yes, and many lives ago I was the guy who scored the winning goal for Greece. Looks like kicking that camel-dung around has finally paid off :-) Herman 34432 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 4:18pm Subject: Buddhism and psychology Hi All, I found the following useful and interesting. Perhaps you will too. The article puts the basic tenets of Buddhism in a modern light. http://www.innerself.com/Spirituality/psychotherapy_2.htm Catch ya'll later Herman 34433 From: Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 5:06pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings Hi Nina, Thank you for the very long reply but it didn't answer my question. It doesn't matter if the consciousness is kusala or akusala. Generosity was just an example. The question is, why is the feeling that arises with any consciousness experienced partly in the body? This is the same whether the consciousness is generosity or hatred. This isn't a mere theoretical question. It is basic to understanding what feeling is. I don't think I experience feeling without the body but I could be wrong. I also don't understand how taste can generate an immediate pleasant or unpleasant feeling that is separate and distinct from like and dislike. Taste is supposed to be always accompanied by neutral feeling. Maybe abhidhamma made a mistake. Larry 34434 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 5:32pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Phil and all, No problem. Regarding nama and rupa, the Buddha explains what they are in Samyutta Nikaya XII.2 Paticca-samuppada-vibhanga Sutta Analysis of Dependent Co-arising http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn12-002.html "And what is name-&-form? Feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention: This is called name. The four great elements, and the form dependent on the four great elements: This is called form. This name & this form are called name-&-form. The field of psychology and/or cognitive science includes study in feeling, perception, intention, contact, & attention, and other mental and/or cognitive processes. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > > Hi Victor, and all. > > > V: > Regarding khandha/aggregates, I think you might be interested > in the > > following discourse: > > > > Samyutta Nikaya XXII.48 > > Khandha Sutta > > Aggregates > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn22-048.html > > Ph: Thanks for this, Victor. Actually, I think it provides a > confirmation, for me, that it was helpful to learn about rupa and > nama through Nina's books and currently the aggregates through Ch XIV > of Visudhimagga before studying suttas in an applied way. When I > first read about khandas a couple of years ago I looked through > suttas to find more about what it means - probably through the > subject index at access to insight, or Professor Google. And probably > read the sutta you kindly linked me to. But it is really hard to > understand, just words, without at least a basic knowledge of > processes of cittas, in my opinion. Now when I read it I have at > least a little bit more clear idea of what is being referred to in > the sutta. But that is me. We all have different accumulations and > conditions that make different approaches right. > > BTW, thanks again for the Path to Freedom link. I am finding > wonderfully helpful suttas there. > > Metta, > Phil 34435 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 5:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Herman, And metaphysics is a "[b]ranch of philosophy that studies the ultimate structure and constitution of reality-i.e., of that which is real, insofar as it is real." :-) http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=397280&query=metaphysics&ct= Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > First of all, this post is not about Nina!!!!!!!! > > Now, on with it. > > Hi, I have a confession to make. > > I have never read the Abhidhamma. Not a single skeric of it. Not in an > other language, and not in English. I have read synopses of the > Abhidhamma, I have read what others have written about the Abhidhamma > (some omit to say whether they are commenting on the Abhidhamma or on a > synopsis), and I have read what others have written about what others > have written to the nth degree (some omit to say whether they are > commenting on a 3rd, 4th, 5th or nth source). > > Yet I hold a view about the Abhidhamma (a dismissive one). Silly, isn't > it? NO, IT ISN'T. Because what I read the Abhidhamma purports to be > about (it's primary source) I do have ready and frequent access to. And > I see no connection between the primary source (reality) and the > Abhidhamma. > > Some take pride in how wordy the Abhidhamma is. Yet when there is > awareness of the primary source of the Abhidhamma (reality) there is not > a single word in sight !!! Strange indeed that it should take so many > words to describe something so totally non-verbal. The present moment is > such a living, fluctuating reality, yet someone imagined this could be > captured in a valley of dry bones. Weird, totally weird. > > Some take pride in how difficult it is to master the Abhidhamma, they > take pride in just how many commentaries, and which ones, are necessary > to shed light on the intricate and subtle meanings in this great > intellectual masterpiece. And yet, somehow untangling this web of words > is considered a safer bet than mental silence, because in mental silence > there could be a self?? > > Awareness of the present moment rises and falls with it. One needs to be > quiet to see the ego struggle with its non-existence. > > Yes, and many lives ago I was the guy who scored the winning goal for > Greece. Looks like kicking that camel-dung around has finally paid off > :-) > > Herman 34436 From: Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 1:48pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings Hi, Larry (and Nina) - In a message dated 7/5/04 8:16:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, LBIDD@w... writes: > Hi Nina, > > Thank you for the very long reply but it didn't answer my question. It > doesn't matter if the consciousness is kusala or akusala. Generosity was > just an example. The question is, why is the feeling that arises with > any consciousness experienced partly in the body? This is the same > whether the consciousness is generosity or hatred. This isn't a mere > theoretical question. It is basic to understanding what feeling is. I > don't think I experience feeling without the body but I could be wrong. > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: What you are saying, Larry, accords with my experience as well, and is reflected in my theory that pleasant and unpleasant feelings are always *directly* associated only with bodily sensations. ---------------------------------------------------- > I also don't understand how taste can generate an immediate pleasant or > unpleasant feeling that is separate and distinct from like and dislike. > Taste is supposed to be always accompanied by neutral feeling. Maybe > abhidhamma made a mistake. > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: What I seem to experience - though this is very subtle, and could well be misperceived - is that even tastes and smells are initially experienced as neutral in feel, but mind processing *quickly* follows them, producing (often subtle) bodily sensations, and it is those bodily sensations that can be pleasant or unpleasant. Again, this is how it *seems* to me, but I certainly recognize that this "seeming" may well be mistaken. One fact does seem to mildly support this view in a way, is that, often, 'vedana' instead of being translated as 'feeling' is translated as 'sensation', indicating the strong relationship between feeling and bodily sensation. ------------------------------------------------- > > Larry > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34437 From: Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 5:51pm Subject: Vism.XIV 85 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 85. (3) But when young children have a natural habit due to seeing the behavior of relatives and are joyful on seeing bhikkhus and at once give them whatever they have in their hands or pay homage, then the third kind of consciousness arises. (4) But when they behave like this on being urged by their relatives, 'Give; pay homage', then the fourth kind of consciousness arises. (5)-(8) But when the consciousnesses are devoid of joy in these four instances through encountering no excellence in the gift to be given, or in the recipient, etc., or through want of any such cause for joy, the the remaining four, which are 'accompanied by equanimity', arise. So sense-sphere profitable [consciousness] should be understood as of eight kinds, being classed according to joy, equanimity, knowledge, and prompting. 34438 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 6:06pm Subject: RE: [dsg] On Right Livelihood; Then and Now; a point that can be easily overlooked Hi Nori, I agree with your post. The following sums it up nicely. "I think in general, working for any company that is run by those who are greedy, dishonest, hateful, or create suffering for the world is a bad livelihood. Working for them, you are participating in accomplishing their agenda." The Nuremberg defense (I was only following orders) is not a defense against the laws of kamma. The livelihood recommended by the Buddha is to be withdrawn from the world. Thanks Herman -----Original Message----- From: nori [mailto:nori_public@a...] Sent: Saturday, 3 July 2004 7:02 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] On Right Livelihood; Then and Now; a point that can be easily overlooked Hi all, It is obvious from reading the details `of mere morality' in the Brahma-gala Sutta, in Digha Nikaya that many of the modes of livelihood mentioned were written, not as a general guide or rule for all ages, but addressing, specifically, the many wrong means of livelihood that were prevalent at the time. For example, some wrong means of livelihood mentioned: 21-14 `Sacrificing by spewing mustard seeds, &c., into the fire out of ones's mouth.' 21-15 `Drawing blood out of one's right knee as a sacrifice to the gods.' I could imagine somebody reading this list and saying to his/herself: `well let's see, I don't do that, that and that for a living so my livelihood must be OK.' Or I could imagine other people going further from these specific occupations, and making general rules such as: `well I am not in an occupation that deals with the killing of animals, etc. so my livelihood must be OK.' Now, the following, is, of course, only my opinion, but in this modern world of mega-corporations run by board members, there are wrong means of livelihood that can be easily overlooked. I think in general, working for any company that is run by those who are greedy, dishonest, hateful, or create suffering for the world is a bad livelihood. Working for them, you are participating in accomplishing their agenda. The dire consequence for participating in such a company is that you have to work and be in their presence, those that are un-beloved. Arrrrrgggggghhhhh !! Those that run the company set the atmosphere of it; their greed, dishonesty, hate, or general disregard for society trickles down from the controlling board members, to managers, to lower managers, and to peers. It spreads like a plague. There is much downside for being in the presence of those that are un-beloved: You suffer from their presence; they encourage unskillful behavior, they mock skillful behavior; you live battling their influence, you live in the 'field' of their kamma, in the presence of their sorrows. with metta, nori 34439 From: Dhammaasoka Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 10:50pm Subject: Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Dear Nina & Yu and others, Yu, the Reverend stated that: 1. The samatha and vipassana cannot be single out. Both should go hand in hand. 2. He quoted the pali term "sampajjano" from Maha Satipatthana as knowing with discrning the anicca lakhana. 3. He mentioned that we should discern body, feeling, mind and dhamma (the four subject of satipatthana) through feeling. His discription was, by watching the changes of the breath, we will be able to know the states of mind and dhamma as well as the body. 4. He mentioned that we can't "see" our past lives according to sutta. Buddha teaches us to live now and then. The 11 ways of discerning is merely for us to understand the aspect of dhamma. (This one I found conflicting with the teachings of Pa Auk Sayadaw, so I am not sure) 5. The Reverend mentioned discerning internally, externally, internally and externally in the Maha Satipatthana sutta as discerning the six door as internally and the six respective object as externally and their relationship. He quoted one of the sutta that sound something like "what is the internal world--the six door; what is the external world--the six respective object" 6. He mentioned that the one-pointedness only exists from 2nd Jhana and onwards. 1st Jhana only have the four factors. (I have tried to search for suttas that have clear mention of the five factors and I have mentioned this to Rob.M as well. Rob.M found 1 sutta from Mn19 and I found 1 sutta from DN111) Nina: Thanks a lot for the reply. By the way, can I have further clarification or confirmation? 1. Firstly, do we discerning the anicca lakhana when we are in Jhana? > N: The jhanacittas have absorption concentration with pañña on one of the meditation subjects of samatha. anicca lakhana is the object of vipassana. L: I understand it as in the state of samatha there is no discrnment of anicca lakhana. Am I understand it correctly? > L: 2. What does sampajjano actually mean? Is it just knowing the object or with discernment on anicca? > N: with sampajañña or pañña (another term for sampajañña), that can be of the level of samatha or of vipassana. So it depends what the object is. If it is the realization of impermanence it is vipassana pañña. L: OK, I was not so sure about this at first as the Abhidhamma defines "Sampajjanna" with panna etc. So, when we talk about the satipatthana, the object is for the development of vipassana only and not samatha? > L: 3. Is the samatha and vipassana actually go together and can't be single out during our practice in satipatthana? (Without any magga or phala-citta) > N: When vipassana is developed there is also calm, samatha, with the citta. The factors of the eightfold Path which are samadhi, sati and right effort are actually the concentration of the eightfold Path. But mind: the object is a nama or rupa that appears. The term: our practice in satipatthana is confusing. It seems that there is a set time, whereas satipatthana is just the development of understanding of any, any reality that appears now, no matter where we are. Any object, also akusala! L: I think I used the wrong word that I actually intended. The subject should be Jhana and Vipassana. Anyway, thanks for the valueble input. > L: . The 11 ways of discerning the dhamma (pass, current, future, far, near... etc.) mentioned in suttas is for the purpose of understanding that the dhamma is always the same in every aspect and not meant for real discernment? > N: These 11 ways are said of the five khandhas, they are past present, future, near, far, coarse, subtle, etc . What has a past, present and future arises and falls away, it is impermanent. They are objects of understanding, they are another way of presenting the ultimate realities of citta, cetasika and rupa (not for the reverend!). L: Is it mean we can no way discerning the past nama and rupa? As I noticed that Pa Auk Sayadaw actually teaches students to discern the past and future. > L: 5. When Buddha mentioned that discern internally, discern externally, discern internally and externally in the Maha Satipatthana sutta, does He means discerning the six door as internally and the six respective object as externally and their relationship or process and internally and externally, or, does Buddha refer internally to ourselves and externally to others? > N: As I understand, the last one. You may be touching another's body and then just hardness presents itself, no person. Or the other person's sadness appears, this brings you back to your own citta, and the way you feel about his sadness. It is a reminder. All these aspects are reminders to bring you back to nama and rupa now. L: Although I have the same choice as you but I define it as discen the khandhas of ourselves and others through vipassana. (Even without direct touching) > L: 6. When Buddha said discerning the body as body, feeling as feeling ...etc, do we discern the body, feeling, cittas and dhamma through feeling? As the reverend said, through feeling that we feel the existence of the body, through the feeling we notice the state of mind and the dhamma as well. Is it the way interpreting the sutta? > N: No, I do not see it this way. It is sati that is aware and pañña that understands. Understanding has to be emphasized all the time. It has to be sharp and keen, and know precisely the nama or rupa that appears through one of the six doors, one at a time. L: From the dhiscussion with one of my friend, he said the REverend might be using the view point of Goenka ji. > L: The reverend only accept words from Nikayas and not other than that. :) > N: I see! We need not mention any sources, let us just talk about realities. We can call them in terms of the khandhas. L: But it is quite difficult to ensure and to be ensured which one is reality! :) People will usually quotes sayings of the Buddha as their authority of their teachings. Very interesting questions. Any more? L: Personally I do hope no more because if there is more questions regarding the teachings of the Reverend, then it means my friends and I will be even confused. Of course, I do not mean I have mastered the teachings of the Buddha and I do welcome teachings that I have not heard and different from what I have heard, just hope it wouldn't be too weird ;) There are still a few of questions and I will post on board after discussion with friends. Thanks, Nina. Regards, Lee 34440 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] On Right Livelihood; Then and Now; a point that can be easily overlooked Hello Nori, Herman and all, I think you may find something interesting to consider (i.e. from a different perspective) about Right Livelihood in the Useful Posts in the Files section of Dhammastudygroup: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ under the Heading "Livelihood (right - sammaa-aajiiva)" post numbers 17634, 17642, 17679, 18114, 24230, 24232. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" 34441 From: davjcur Date: Mon Jul 5, 2004 1:22pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hello, Where on the internet do you find the vinaya & the book of analysis? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" wrote: > Hi Nina > > > N: Here the trouble could be in missing out the relevant > >commentaries. The > > Dhammasangani should be read together with the Expositor > >(Atthasaalinii). > > Without this one may get lost. > > >------------------------------------------------------------------ - > > Very interesting! > Despite my endemic lack of free time, I managed to download > excerpts of the Vinaya at my Palm. I've read all the Mahavagga Vinaya > and now I've got a new and more accurate viewpoint of many aspects of > the Buddhadhamma. Its initial passages are a treasure of real > understanding and lighted up a spotlight on many passages on > Dhammasangani and other suttas. > First of all, Buddha hadn't get his ideas out of nowhere: the > everyday practice and a careful application of his own concepts were > paramount for the edification of his corpus of knowledge. One can > catch up that the Dependent origination, the four Noble truths and > the Three main modes of expression were the roots of all Buddha's > effort to preach Dhamma and put it in practice ( the Mahavagga makes > the stand that the Patimokkha is the one and Real Dhamma of all, > because its mandatory recitation in all Uposatha activities). > There are also commentaries about the Mahavagga, written by > Buddhaghosa ... I will check it out if I have got these at my own > recollection of Buddhistic works!!!No single passage of suttas, > vinaya, abhidhamma or commentaries can be spared off without lack of > understanding of the whole!!! > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- --- > The Vibhanga, Book of Analysis, should be > > read together with the Dispeller of Delusion (I and II). If you > have time > > and interest you could perhaps indicate where you find the Abh > questionable > > or superfluous. > > ------------------------------------------------------------------- -- > > Not ours for sure!!! > > Mettaya, Ícaro 34442 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 4:30am Subject: RE: [dsg] On Right Livelihood; Then and Now; a point that can be easily overlooked Hi Christine, I read, perhaps too hastily, the useful posts you mentioned, and the first four treat right livelihood in the following way. "'Right Livelihood' in fact refers to a moment at which there is wholesome abstinence from a breach of the precepts in the course of earning one's livelihood." Gotta love the "in fact" :-). I would dearly love to see anything from the Nikayas that even hints at this view. It is my view that "livelihood" is utterly meaningless as a momentary arising, as is any idea of sila or precept. Thanks for posting the links. Herman -----Original Message----- From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Sent: Tuesday, 6 July 2004 7:58 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] On Right Livelihood; Then and Now; a point that can be easily overlooked Hello Nori, Herman and all, I think you may find something interesting to consider (i.e. from a different perspective) about Right Livelihood in the Useful Posts in the Files section of Dhammastudygroup: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ under the Heading "Livelihood (right - sammaa-aajiiva)" post numbers 17634, 17642, 17679, 18114, 24230, 24232. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" 34443 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 5:26am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 7/5/04 12:48:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > ... > > It is made clear in the Satipatthana Sutta that there are 4 > 'foundations > > of mindfulness'. One of these is of course the body, but there is no > > suggestion of the body being a 'critical juncture'. > > > > In what sense do you see a moment of mindfulenss of the body as being > of > > more value than a moment of midfulness of, say, attachmnet or > aversion? > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Mindfulness of all dhammas is important. What you asked was what > of > pragmatic value might be drawn from the hypothesis that pleasant and > unpleasant > vedana are the direct results only of *body* contact. My answer is that > if > this is so (though it well might not be), then mindfulness of body-door > objects > places the mind directly at the point that sukkha and dukkha vedana > arise, > whereas mindfulness of other sense doors would be less directly targeted > at that > point. Unless I have misunderstood you, the pragmatic value you have identified indicates a specific 'advantage' in mindfulness of objects experienced through the body-door vs. mindfulness of objects through other sense-doors. However, if no such difference between the various foundations of mindfulness can be found in the texts, then perhaps the underlying idea/view should be questioned. (In saying this I do not of course question the great importance of the first foundation of mindfulness.) Jon 34444 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 5:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Dear Bhinnatta I've been following with interest your discussion with KenH. Thanks for some stimulating exchanges. --- Sujjhana Bhinnatta wrote: > Dear Ken and all, ... > I have come to see that our discussion hinges on whether one believes > the > "ultimate realities" described in the Abhidhamma are really ultimate > realities or just concepts stripped from the suttas and organized in a > way > as to define them and remove any ambiguity as to their meaning (as > concepts). I must confess this is the first time I have come across such a statement. My question to you would be, within the suttas themselves there âre many references to dhammas, conditioned dhammas, the five aggregates, the elements, and the sense bases. What do you see as the significance of these references? Do you disagree with the view that these are the objects of insight the developoment of which leads eventually to enlightenment? Looking forward to more of your stimulating posts. Jon 34445 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 5:55am Subject: Greetings from Zermatt Hi, All A quick hello from the Country Bar (a pity that the best internet connection in town -- with unlimited free printing -- happens to be in such a noisy, smokey dive). Sarah and and I are having a great time here. Early morning walks before sunrise (this morning's was in pouring rain), plus a half-day walk followng breakfast (cooked by me, so far). Sarah's mother, over from England, is being a good sport about it all, although she has so far skipped the pre-breakfast walk, thanks all the same. As usual, I have been printing out all the posts so Sarah and I can read them together during the day, and that way we manage to keep fairly up to date. Gives us lots to think and talk about during the walks. Dhamma and the mountains -- nothing like ît! Oh, and the Tour de France, also. Cheers Jon 34446 From: Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 2:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/6/04 8:35:38 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > > > >In a message dated 7/5/04 12:48:28 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > >jonoabb@y... writes: > > > ... > >>It is made clear in the Satipatthana Sutta that there are 4 > >'foundations > >>of mindfulness'. One of these is of course the body, but there is no > >>suggestion of the body being a 'critical juncture'. > >> > >>In what sense do you see a moment of mindfulenss of the body as being > >of > >>more value than a moment of midfulness of, say, attachmnet or > >aversion? > >> > >---------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > Mindfulness of all dhammas is important. What you asked was what > >of > >pragmatic value might be drawn from the hypothesis that pleasant and > >unpleasant > >vedana are the direct results only of *body* contact. My answer is that > >if > >this is so (though it well might not be), then mindfulness of body-door > >objects > >places the mind directly at the point that sukkha and dukkha vedana > >arise, > >whereas mindfulness of other sense doors would be less directly targeted > >at that > >point. > > Unless I have misunderstood you, the pragmatic value you have identified > indicates a specific 'advantage' in mindfulness of objects experienced > through the body-door vs. mindfulness of objects through other > sense-doors. > > However, if no such difference between the various foundations of > mindfulness can be found in the texts, then perhaps the underlying > idea/view should be questioned. > ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Perhaps so. Perhaps there is no advantage there. (But no harm either, of course.) Certainly, with respect to any sense door insight into the tilakkhana can arise. --------------------------------------------- (In saying this I do not of course> question the great importance of the > first foundation of mindfulness.) > > Jon > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34447 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Herman, op 06-07-2004 01:12 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...: > First of all, this post is not about Nina!!!!!!!! N: Ah, that is kind of you! No debates necessary. I shall read on developing (mind: developing) equanimity. Nina. 34448 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings Hi Larry and Howard, op 06-07-2004 02:06 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: The question is, why is the feeling that arises with > any consciousness experienced partly in the body? This is the same > whether the consciousness is generosity or hatred. This isn't a mere > theoretical question. It is basic to understanding what feeling is. I > don't think I experience feeling without the body but I could be wrong. > I also don't understand how taste can generate an immediate pleasant or > unpleasant feeling that is separate and distinct from like and dislike. > Taste is supposed to be always accompanied by neutral feeling. Maybe > abhidhamma made a mistake. N: I asked Lodewijk and he has a down to earth reply. All this is not his experience. He says, this is too complicated and it distracts from the essence: understanding anatta. We have to keep in mind the goal: our study has to lead to detachment from the idea of self. I tried to convey to you in my former post that it is the watching that does not help. It enforces the idea of my great feeling, my important feeling. I see your point saying, but I experience it this way. Let me try to give other angles. Howard is careful, saying, Larry, you may underestimate the velocity of different processes of cittas experiencing different objects. Tasting: vipakacitta accompanied by indifferent feeling. This is followed very shortly by javana cittas and these are kusala cittas or akusala cittas. When they are akusala cittas with attachment they are accompanied by pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. We should not forget that all this is extremely fast. As to bodily reactions, these are in other processes. It is very individual and depends on someone's accumulations. Bodily feeling is also only vipaka and it experiences tangible object, but akusala citta with attachment to tangible object can arise shortly after this vipaka. This is conditioned by the latent tendency of sensuous desire. I shall quote a little from my Yamaka (sixth Book of the Abhidhamma, not in English) and Co. study. But first a few more points. Howard says: Lodewijk remarked that it is not easy to explain what feeling is. It is different from sensation as we use it in conventional sense. When we say sensation we assemble many dhammas together into a whole: bodily phenomena and mental phenomena. That is not the way to know just feeling that is pure nama. If we do not know feeling as pure nama it will always be my feeling, we shall not reach the goal. We take it for lasting and self. It is important to learn in detail what types of citta are accompanied by what types of feeling. See Vis. XIV, 125. But when watching it we may watch it with our own ideas, with ignorance and wrong view. Thus, when you say I feel pleasant taste with my whole body, there is a mixture of many different processes all taken together. These bodily phenomena arise because of other conditions, we cannot trace all. Anyway, it does not matter, we have to think of the goal. But I can quote of my latent tendencies, in a separate post. I am sure many questions will remain for you. Only pañña developed in vipassana can gradually have a more precise understanding of different dhammas, but we do need patience. Nina. 34449 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Howard, Larry, Respectfully butting in, op 05-07-2004 21:31 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: Howard wrote to Jon: > Mindfulness of all dhammas is important. What you asked was what of > pragmatic value might be drawn from the hypothesis that pleasant and > unpleasant > vedana are the direct results only of *body* contact. My answer is that if > this is so (though it well might not be), then mindfulness of body-door > objects places the mind directly at the point that sukkha and dukkha vedana arise, > whereas mindfulness of other sense doors would be less directly targeted at that point. Nina: Although you say that mindfulness of all dhammas is important, I get the impression that bodily feelings are over emphasized. How to reduce their importance? I understand that people try to understand what is more coarse and thus more obvious, such as feeling, but let's analyse and break things apart so that we can see feeling as only one short moment among other moments. That might be helpful. Sitting in the sun, experiencing just the right amount of heat, what is there? Bodyconsciousness that is kusala vipaka (the jaati that is vipaka, result) experiencing a desirable object. This is accompanied by pleasant bodily feeling, also vipaka, it does not like the object or cling to it. It is only one moment. Shortly after this: 7 javanacittas, and these may be akusala cittas with lobha, liking the heat element. They arise in a sense-door process, thus, only rupa can be the object, not feeling. Followed by a mind-door process still experiencing that rupa that has just fallen away. After that other mind-door processes which define and name the object (we do not count when these arise and how many of them). Then another mind-door process can take as object: the previous body-consciousness or the bodily feeling (this is nama!) or the pleasant mental feeling or the lobha that just arose before. Processes are so fast, for all practical purposes it is still the present moment. Bodily feeling is nama and can only be experienced in a later mind-door process. I think when we analyse the processes we can learn to see bodily feelings as poor, insignificant moments, they should not be overemphasized. Analysing the processes is still theory, but intellectual understanding should be correct. It is difficult to know the characteristic of bodily feeling, it is so evanescent, it can only be understood through vipassana. As said before: first the difference between nama and rupa should be realized. Otherwise there is great confusion. Nina. 34450 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 85, kamma and result Hi Larry, a few words to start this para. op 06-07-2004 02:51 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV > > 85. (3) But when young children have a natural habit due to seeing the > behavior of relatives and are joyful on seeing bhikkhus and at once give > them whatever they have in their hands or pay homage, then the third > kind of consciousness arises. N: I am well in my study and since the second part of my Tiika deals with kamma and rebirth-consciousness I studied the Expositor (II, p. 358 and following) about this. Here I noticed the way Buddhaghosa works and it can fortify people's confidence in his conscientiousness. When kusala kamma is performed with citta accompanied by wisdom it is not always so that the result as rebirth-consciousness is of the same type. It depends on other factors, wisdom may be weak, and then it can produce rebirth-consciousness with two roots. The same about unprompted that may result in prompted, many fators are operating here. Now many opinions of many teachers are quoted by Buddhaghosa. He quotes also from three Elders: He then goes on analysing them very carefully. I am really impressed by his way of working. The Tiika is rather short about this subject. Nina. 34451 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:12am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: careful attention. Hi Howard, op 05-07-2004 23:43 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: >> N: is not the way A. Sujin teaches. There could >> be a self watching. (snipped) > Howard: > Mundane knowledge of Dhamma certainly comes first. However, sati must > be cultivated, leading, along with other factors, to pa~n~na. But perhaps I > should have better said "careful attention" instead of "mindful watching". I > do > believe that it is central to Buddhist practice to *attempt* to carefully > attend to what arises, observing it with as much clarity and equanimity as one > can > muster. > ----------------------------------------------- > True, through insight that is developed there comes a time that> >> sati and pañña have become powers, balava vipassana. >> > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > But one must begin somewhere, and that somewhere is wherever one is > *right now*, in a state of delusion and overwhelmed by sense of self and > own-being. N: You say: . Even though there is an underlying idea of self no matter what we do, I still think that the beginning must be right, otherwise one will accumulate more and more clinging to sati. That is why listening is emphasized so much. There is a Thai expression: understanding must get into your bones. Hearing this again and again, and considering this, yes, it works, it can get into one's bones. No thought about attending and observing, whatever dhamma appears, let it come. But no idea of having to watch it. It appears already by its own conditions. When the intellectual understanding is right it is time for awareness and understanding to arise. Just one more point. I value all three parts of the Tipitaka, I see the unity. I highly value the Suttanta. Nina. 34452 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:12am Subject: latent tendency of sense desire. Hi Larry, Howard, I shall quote a little from my Yamaka (sixth Book of the Abhidhamma, not in English) and Co. study. I think it is a repost of what I quoted before, but it is fitting here. But first a few more points. The latent tendency of sense desire conditions the arising of akusala citta with lobha, and this can be accompanied by pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling. This akusala citta can have as object these feelings or other objects such as sense objects. Then it falls away but it conditions sense desire to go on as an accumulation. Therefore it is said: sense desire adheres to feeling, it adheres to other objects. Feeling is more coarse and it is predominant, it is more obvious. But sense desire also adheres to other dhammas. This will clarify that we do not only cling to feeling. We should not draw hasty conclusions merely because feeling is more coarse and thus more obvious. Quote from latent tendencies: <...when the latent tendency of sensuous desire arises, these two feelings are predominant over the other conascent dhammas because of the satisfaction obtained by the enjoyment of happiness and calm. Therefore the Buddha said, ŒHere the latent tendency adheres to these two kinds of feeling¹, so that those who are capable of being led to enlightenment (bhuddha veneyya) could realize happy feeling because its nature is coarse.² ³Surely, when the latent tendency of sensuous desire adheres on account of an object, it does not merely adhere to these two feelings and to the dhammas that are conascent with them. It also adheres to visible object that is desirable, and so on. The Buddha taught in the ŒBook of Analysis¹ (Ch 16, Analysis of Knowledge, 816, And what is the latent tendency of beings?): ŒThat which in the world is a lovely thing, pleasant thing (piyarúpa, såtarúpa), the latent tendency to sensuous desire of beings adheres to this....¹ ² With regard to the words ³The latent tendency of sensuous clinging adheres also to materiality and so on that is desirable.², this means, that the sensuous clinging that arises (because there is still the latent tendency of it) does not only have as object pleasant feeling, indifferent feeling and the dhammas that accompany those. It means that it can also have as object a lovely rúpa (piya rúpa) and a pleasant rúpa (såta rúpa). Thus, desirable nåma dhammas and rúpa dhammas can be the objects of sensuous desire. When sensuous desire arises and has as object desirable nåmas and rúpas, the accumulation of the latent tendency of sensuous desire continues. Therefore, the Buddha said, ³The latent tendency of sensuous desire adheres to a lovely rúpa (piya rúpa) and a pleasant rúpa (såta rúpa).²> End quote. This clarifies why there is clinging to such or such objects. We should not underestimate our latent tendencies that condition the arising of clinging. All the time more desire is added to the latent tendency of desire. Nina. 34453 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:42am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Dear dav > Where on the internet do you find the vinaya & the book of analysis? >--------------------------------------------------------------------- - You can try the www.accesstoinsight.org, with a good english translation (Bhikkhu Nanamoli's) of the Vinaya's Mahavagga, The Patimokkha ( the Real Dhamma at Vinaya's scribes viewpoint) and the corrected days of the Uposatha. If you are already acquainted with the Pali language you can try the Pali Canon archives on the Journal of Buddhistic Ethics, the DhammaPortal at www.metta.lk or the beautiful, complete and unabridged tipitaka pali canon at www.tipitaka.org.Over there you will find the Vibhanga - The Book of Analysis, but unfortunately I don't know any version of this book on English or other western language. Don't fret and be brave! They are indeed good books, really worth of study! Good hunting and good reading!!! Mettaya, Ícaro > > > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "icarofranca" > wrote: > > Hi Nina > > > > > N: Here the trouble could be in missing out the relevant > > >commentaries. The > > > Dhammasangani should be read together with the > Expositor > > >(Atthasaalinii). > > > Without this one may get lost. > > > > >----------------------------------------------------------------- - > - > > > > Very interesting! > > Despite my endemic lack of free time, I managed to download > > excerpts of the Vinaya at my Palm. I've read all the Mahavagga > Vinaya > > and now I've got a new and more accurate viewpoint of many aspects > of > > the Buddhadhamma. Its initial passages are a treasure of real > > understanding and lighted up a spotlight on many passages on > > Dhammasangani and other suttas. > > First of all, Buddha hadn't get his ideas out of nowhere: the > > everyday practice and a careful application of his own concepts > were > > paramount for the edification of his corpus of knowledge. One can > > catch up that the Dependent origination, the four Noble truths and > > the Three main modes of expression were the roots of all Buddha's > > effort to preach Dhamma and put it in practice ( the Mahavagga > makes > > the stand that the Patimokkha is the one and Real Dhamma of all, > > because its mandatory recitation in all Uposatha activities). > > There are also commentaries about the Mahavagga, written by > > Buddhaghosa ... I will check it out if I have got these at my own > > recollection of Buddhistic works!!!No single passage of suttas, > > vinaya, abhidhamma or commentaries can be spared off without lack > of > > understanding of the whole!!! > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ - > --- > > The Vibhanga, Book of Analysis, should be > > > read together with the Dispeller of Delusion (I and II). If you > > have time > > > and interest you could perhaps indicate where you find the Abh > > questionable > > > or superfluous. > > > > ------------------------------------------------------------------ - > -- > > > > Not ours for sure!!! > > > > Mettaya, Ícaro 34454 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 11:51am Subject: Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi Lee and all, Thank you for the message. Let me reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" wrote: > Dear Nina & Yu and others, > > > Yu, the Reverend stated that: > 1. The samatha and vipassana cannot be single out. Both should go hand > in hand. I am not quite sure exactly what it means by the statement above. What do you think it means? > 2. He quoted the pali term "sampajjano" from Maha Satipatthana as > knowing with discrning the anicca lakhana. In the Pali-English Dictionary http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ we have the following definition: Sampajanna (p. 690) (nt.) [fr. sampajana, i. e. *sampajanya] attention, consideration, discrimination, comprehension, circumspection Different meditation teachers may have different interpretation on sampajañña. For examples, in Frames of Reference by Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/frames.html Ajaan Lee explains sati, sampajañña, and atappa as following: 1. Sati: mindfulness; powers of reference. 2. Sampajañña: alertness. This has to be firmly in place before sending mindfulness out to refer to its object -- such as the body -- and then bringing it back inwards to refer to the heart. 3. Atappa: focused investigation, analyzing the object into its various aspects. whereas in The Path of Concentration & Mindfulness by Thanissaro Bhikkhu http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html Ajaan Thanissaro explains them as: As you do this, you develop three qualities of mind. One is mindfulness (sati). The term mindfulness means being able to remember, to keep something in mind. In the case of establishing the body as a frame of reference, it means being able to remember where you're supposed to be -- with the body -- and you don't let yourself forget. The second quality, alertness (sampajañña), means being aware of what is actually going on in the present. Are you with the body? Are you with the breath? Is the breath comfortable? Simply notice what's actually happening in the present moment. We tend to confuse mindfulness with alertness, but actually they are two separate things: mindfulness means being able to remember where you want to keep your awareness; alertness means being aware of what's actually happening. The third quality, ardency (atappa), means two things. One, if you realize that the mind has wandered off, you bring it right back. Immediately. You don't let it wander around, sniffing the flowers. Two, when the mind is with its proper frame of reference, ardency means trying to be as sensitive as possible to what's going on -- not just drifting in the present moment, but really trying to penetrate more and more into the subtle details of what's actually happening with the breath or the mind. I would say that the Buddha taught the guidelines of sati, sampajañña and atappa in meditation practice, the ajaans provide explanations about these guidelines, and it takes practice and exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, sampajañña and atappa. > 3. He mentioned that we should discern body, feeling, mind and dhamma > (the four subject of satipatthana) through feeling. His discription > was, by watching the changes of the breath, we will be able to know > the states of mind and dhamma as well as the body. Does it work for you? If not, how do you go about doing it? > 4. He mentioned that we can't "see" our past lives according to sutta. What do you think about that? > Buddha teaches us to live now and then. The 11 ways of discerning is > merely for us to understand the aspect of dhamma. (This one I found > conflicting with the teachings of Pa Auk Sayadaw, so I am not sure) What are the teachings of Pa Auk Sayadaw? > 5. The Reverend mentioned discerning internally, externally, > internally and externally in the Maha Satipatthana sutta as discerning > the six door as internally and the six respective object as externally > and their relationship. He quoted one of the sutta that sound > something like "what is the internal world--the six door; what is the > external world--the six respective object" What do you think it should be? > 6. He mentioned that the one-pointedness only exists from 2nd Jhana > and onwards. 1st Jhana only have the four factors. (I have tried to > search for suttas that have clear mention of the five factors and I > have mentioned this to Rob.M as well. Rob.M found 1 sutta from Mn19 > and I found 1 sutta from DN111) Actually it is MN43. DN consists of thirty-four suttas. Which sutta did you find from DN? [snip] > Regards, > Lee Metta, Victor 34455 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 0:58pm Subject: yoniso manasikara (was Re: careful attention.) Hi Nina, Howard, and all, Forgive me for jumping into your discussion. Howard, you brought up the topic on careful attention, and that reminds me of the teaching on yoniso manasikara, or appropriate attention. The Buddha taught appropriate attention in Majjhima Nikaya 2 Sabbasava Sutta All the Fermentations http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html The passage relevant to the topic on appropriate attention would be too long for this message, so I will just quote the beginning part of it: The Blessed One said, "Monks, the ending of the fermentations is for one who knows & sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & does not see. For one who knows what & sees what? Appropriate attention & inappropriate attention. When a monk attends inappropriately, unarisen fermentations arise, and arisen fermentations increase. When a monk attends appropriately, unarisen fermentations do not arise, and arisen fermentations are abandoned. Another discourse and it's notes that mention appropriate attention is the following: § 16. {Iti I.16; Iti 9} This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have heard: "With regard to internal factors, I don't envision any other single factor like appropriate attention[1] as doing so much for a monk in training,[2] who has not attained the heart's goal but remains intent on the unsurpassed safety from bondage.[3] A monk who attends appropriately abandons what is unskillful and develops what is skillful. Appropriate attention as a quality of a monk in training: nothing else does so much for attaining the superlative goal. A monk, striving appropriately, attains the ending of stress. Notes: 1. Appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) is the ability to focus attention on questions that lead to the end of suffering. MN 2 lists the following questions as not fit for attention: "Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past?... Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future?... Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?" The discourse also lists the following issues as fit for attention: "This is stress. This is the origination of stress. This is the cessation of stress. This is the way leading to the cessation of stress." [Go back] 2. A person "in training" is one who has attained at least the first level of Awakening, but not yet the final level. [Go back] 3. Bondage = the four yokes: sensual passion, becoming, views, & ignorance. [Go back] Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Howard, > op 05-07-2004 23:43 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >> N: is not the way A. Sujin teaches. There could > >> be a self watching. > (snipped) > > Howard: > > Mundane knowledge of Dhamma certainly comes first. However, sati must > > be cultivated, leading, along with other factors, to pa~n~na. But perhaps I > > should have better said "careful attention" instead of "mindful watching". I > > do > > believe that it is central to Buddhist practice to *attempt* to carefully > > attend to what arises, observing it with as much clarity and equanimity as one > > can > > muster. > > ----------------------------------------------- > > True, through insight that is developed there comes a time that> > >> sati and pañña have become powers, balava vipassana. > >> > > ------------------------------------------------- > > Howard: > > But one must begin somewhere, and that somewhere is wherever one is > > *right now*, in a state of delusion and overwhelmed by sense of self and > > own-being. > N: You say: clarity and equanimity as one can muster>. Even though there is an > underlying idea of self no matter what we do, I still think that the > beginning must be right, otherwise one will accumulate more and more > clinging to sati. That is why listening is emphasized so much. There is a > Thai expression: understanding must get into your bones. there dhamma now? Seeing is dhamma, is there any understanding of it?> > Hearing this again and again, and considering this, yes, it works, it can > get into one's bones. No thought about attending and observing, whatever > dhamma appears, let it come. But no idea of having to watch it. It appears > already by its own conditions. When the intellectual understanding is right > it is time for awareness and understanding to arise. > Just one more point. I value all three parts of the Tipitaka, I see the > unity. I highly value the Suttanta. > Nina. 34456 From: Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 10:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/6/04 9:51:16 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes in reply to you: > >Unless I have misunderstood you, the pragmatic value you have identified > >indicates a specific 'advantage' in mindfulness of objects experienced > >through the body-door vs. mindfulness of objects through other > >sense-doors. > > > >However, if no such difference between the various foundations of > >mindfulness can be found in the texts, then perhaps the underlying > >idea/view should be questioned. > > > ---------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Perhaps so. Perhaps there is no advantage there. (But no harm either, > of course.) Certainly, with respect to any sense door insight into the > tilakkhana can arise. > --------------------------------------------- > =========================== Again, there may indeed be no advantage at all even if the theory that non-neutral vedana issues forth only from contact with bodily sensation, but I still tend to think there *is* an advantage. When there is heightened attention directed towards bodily sensation, given that such sensation is the source of non-neutral vedana and that attention is "focussed" at that very point, vedanupassana would tend to arise as well. Moreover, inasmuch, according to the same theory, as mindstate frequently produces bodily sensation, attention to bodily sensation makes it easier to pick up on the closely preceding and causative mindstate. Thus it would seem that should the theory be true, a big "if" of course, then mindfulness of bodily sensation may also tend towards mindfulness of the second and third foundations of mindfulness, and when these three reach their pinnacle, then the fourth foundation of mindfulness (involving direct awareness of such things as the tilakkhana, the four noble truhs, and dependent origination) would come into play. Again, this is all hypothesizing, Jon, and I agree that there is nowhere in any sutta that I have read any of this addressed. All that I have noticed is the close relatioj in the suttas between sensation and vedana, and the great emphasis placed on mindfulness of the body, which is suggestive, but nothing more. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34457 From: Philip Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 3:00pm Subject: Go ahead and rain! Hello all I'll be signing off for 6 weeks or so. A couple of weeks to concentrate on a writing project, then off to Canada for a holiday. Many thanks to you all for the help you've given me, and especially to Nina for her books. Re-reading the chapter entitled "Life" in Buddhism in Daily Life recently, I was intrigued by the Theragata/ Therigata, the Verses of the Elder Monks/Nuns. I'd never seen such personal poetry in the Dhamma before and went to Access to Insight to learn more about this part of the tipitaka. There is found this, the first verse in the Thergata: "My hut is roofed, comfortable, free of drafts; my mind, well-centered, set free. I remain ardent. So, rain-deva. Go ahead & rain." Now, I remember having come across this before somehwere, perhaps a year ago, before I came to DSG. And I can remember that at that time, I took "ardent" to mean filled with loving-kindness that could dispel all the woes of life, and also thought about focusing on the breath in a way that would shelter me. I was wrong. Now I feel that "ardent" reflects the right effort that is looking at realities in the moment, having both wholesome and unwholesome mental states/moments as objects of awareness, and not being thrown into unskillful deeds by either of them, because I have begun to see that they are not self and will fall away soon enough, to be replaced by other mental states/moments that arise in a conditioned way beyond my control. It can rain, and will rain, but now I have begun - just begun- to see rain for what it really is, and the citta processes that it causes to arise. And I see in this one example how much I have learned in the 6 months since I happened across DSG. Many thanks. This summer I'll be reading the Manual of Abdhidhamma and Rob's book and re-reading ADL - and examining realities in the present moment in the place where I spent summers as a child. That should be interesting. Wishing you all a pleasant summer. Metta, Phil 34458 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 4:29pm Subject: The Sutta of Thomas the Tank Engine Thus have I heard. The fat controller had a nervous breakdown today. All the trains were going too fast for him, there were too many of them, he just couldn't keep track of them all, but worst of all, they wouldn't keep to the timetable he had so carefully drawn up. If only there were more of me, he mused in his freshly starched hospital gown. Edward (the other trains called him panna) couldn't understand it. He always did the parallel run with Thomas (the other trains called him citta). They left the station together and arrived at their destination together. As far as they were concerned, neither of them had any velocity relative to each other. Every time Edward looked, Thomas was there. Thomas wasn't too fast and he wasn't too slow. No problems at all. Edward didn't have to hurry himself or slow down to see all of Thomas' fine lakkhana. The trains secretly wondered why there was a fat controller at all. They knew he didn't actually do anything. They knew that timetables were a waste of paper, because trains always run in their own time. Really, the fat controller was a nervous breakdown waiting to happen. The boys had a bit of whip-around for the fat controller, and bought him a telephone book. He loved it, and memorised it from cover to cover. He was last seen reciting from memory all the S's between Simpkins to Smythe-Upjohn, with all the relevant numbers, to the tune of "London Bridge is falling down". I'd hate to be a nutter (anatta), he thought. 34459 From: Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 0:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: careful attention. Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/6/04 1:13:24 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > >------------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > >But one must begin somewhere, and that somewhere is wherever one is > >*right now*, in a state of delusion and overwhelmed by sense of self and > >own-being. > N: You say: clarity and equanimity as one can muster>. Even though there is an > underlying idea of self no matter what we do, I still think that the > beginning must be right, otherwise one will accumulate more and more > clinging to sati. That is why listening is emphasized so much. There is a > Thai expression: understanding must get into your bones. there dhamma now? Seeing is dhamma, is there any understanding of it?> > Hearing this again and again, and considering this, yes, it works, it can > get into one's bones. No thought about attending and observing, whatever > dhamma appears, let it come. But no idea of having to watch it. It appears > already by its own conditions. When the intellectual understanding is right > it is time for awareness and understanding to arise. > Just one more point. I value all three parts of the Tipitaka, I see the > unity. I highly value the Suttanta. > Nina. > ================================== Nina, you wrote "I still think that the beginning must be right, otherwise one will accumulate more and more clinging to sati. That is why listening is emphasized so much," and you also said "When the intellectual understanding is right it is time for awareness and understanding to arise." I very much agree with the first of these two assertions. We can't go on a journey blindfolded. With regard to the second assertion, while I agree that intellectual understanding is of inestimable value, I do *not* think that it, by itself, is sufficient "for awareness and understanding to arise." That is not what the buddha taught. It is an important, supportive factor, but it is not the whole story. (I am not maintaining that you say it is "the whole story" either - I'm just pointing out that it is not.) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34460 From: Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 0:36pm Subject: Re: [dsg] yoniso manasikara (was Re: careful attention.) Thank you, Victor! Much appreciated. :-) With metta,, Howard In a message dated 7/6/04 4:02:09 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Nina, Howard, and all, > > Forgive me for jumping into your discussion. > > Howard, you brought up the topic on careful attention, and that > reminds me of the teaching on yoniso manasikara, or appropriate > attention. The Buddha taught appropriate attention in > Majjhima Nikaya 2 > Sabbasava Sutta > All the Fermentations > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html > > The passage relevant to the topic on appropriate attention would be > too long for this message, so I will just quote the beginning part > of it: > > > The Blessed One said, "Monks, the ending of the fermentations is for > one who knows &sees, I tell you, not for one who does not know & > does not see. For one who knows what &sees what? Appropriate > attention &inappropriate attention. When a monk attends > inappropriately, unarisen fermentations arise, and arisen > fermentations increase. When a monk attends appropriately, unarisen > fermentations do not arise, and arisen fermentations are abandoned. > > > Another discourse and it's notes that mention appropriate attention > is the following: > > § 16. {Iti I.16; Iti 9} > This was said by the Blessed One, said by the Arahant, so I have > heard: "With regard to internal factors, I don't envision any other > single factor like appropriate attention[1] as doing so much for a > monk in training,[2] who has not attained the heart's goal but > remains intent on the unsurpassed safety from bondage.[3] A monk who > attends appropriately abandons what is unskillful and develops what > is skillful. > > Appropriate attention > as a quality > of a monk in training: > nothing else > does so much > for attaining the superlative goal. > A monk, striving appropriately, > attains the ending of stress. > > Notes: > 1. Appropriate attention (yoniso manasikara) is the ability to focus > attention on questions that lead to the end of suffering. MN 2 lists > the following questions as not fit for attention: "Was I in the > past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in > the past?... Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? > What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future?... Am > I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? > Where is it bound?" The discourse also lists the following issues as > fit for attention: "This is stress. This is the origination of > stress. This is the cessation of stress. This is the way leading to > the cessation of stress." [Go back] > > 2. A person "in training" is one who has attained at least the first > level of Awakening, but not yet the final level. [Go back] > > 3. Bondage = the four yokes: sensual passion, becoming, views, & > ignorance. [Go back] > > > Metta, > Victor > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34461 From: Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 4:49pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings Nina: "If we do not know feeling as pure nama it will always be my feeling, we shall not reach the goal." Hi Nina, This I agree. So, if we take desire with pleasant feeling the feeling seems to have a subtle bodily tension with it. I guess abhidhamma is useless in telling how this can be but the point is that this bodily tension is rupa, not feeling. So if we extract the rupa element what is left? Let us LOOK by all means. Insight will not arise if we do not look. When belief in self arises we can recognize that as what it is. It is only an obstacle if we refuse to look. Larry 34462 From: buddhatrue Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 5:52pm Subject: Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Friend Sarah, Sarah: Firstly, I hope you have a great holiday (In Egypt??) James: Thank you, I did. Yes, I went to Alexandria and Sharm El Sheikh in Egypt. Sarah: However, you wanted sutta detail only, so I tried to oblige, but that was the best I could do without more time or greater familiarity with more suttas. James: Thank you for your efforts and I understand. I just hope that you will understand my point that it shouldn't be difficult to pinpoint this information outside of the commentaries. This is a pretty significant issue. If the sotapanna does truly eradicate jealousy, I think the Buddha would have said so very plainly. Wouldn't it be very important for his monks to know that? I think so. After all, if during the practice of mindfulness they ever sensed the feelings of jealousy arising, they would then know that they hadn't achieved the first stage of stream entry. Sarah: In the suttas, a lot of the detail about stages of enlightenment, enlightenment itself etc is kept to a minimum. James: How do you know this? Your implication is that it is intentional. I believe that you have been conditioned to believe this because the suttas don't give as much detail as the commentaries by Buddhaghosa. Sarah: Those who listened and understood the teachings didn't need to hear this. James: Again, I think the eradication of jealousy is a pretty significant issue that they would need to hear about. Why do you think it isn't significant? Wouldn't it be a pretty clear benchmark to determine one's progress? Sarah: I'm not sure the sutta is particularly talking about jealousy as opposed to just aversion and grief. James: You must have a different definition for jealousy than I do. For example, if you saw Jon flirting with a pretty girl, and you felt upset about that, wouldn't that be jealousy? (Which I'm sure wouldn't happen!! ;-)) I know that jealousy can be envy, but it can also be of the type the Buddha described in that sutta. Hmmmm…now I am not sure if we are both discussing the same thing or not. Sarah: As you say, only an arahant has eradicated the last remnants of attachment, but long before this, attachment to sense pleasures have been eradicated and long before this, courser attachments, such as those with wrong views conditioning jealousy have been eradicated. James: I am not quite sure what you are referring to. Attachment to sense pleasures is eradicated in the non-returner; which I am not sure I would describe this stage as `long before' enlightenment. And again, I haven't seen where the Buddha said that the conditions for jealousy are eradicated earlier. Sarah: For worldlings like us it's true, but without wrong views, the attachments are not so damaging and no conditions for jealousy any more. Gradually the defilements can be understood and worn away. James: I don't follow your meaning here. Sarah: Some mind states arise together and some don't just like different soup mixes. Just as you can't add tomatoes to traditional onion soup (I think??), there can't be jealousy with pleasant feeling or wisdom, for example. However, following the moments of jealousy, there can be wisdom with pleasant feeling which `knows' the jealousy just experienced. Nina explained more on this. James: I don't know where Nina explained about this. I will look for the post later. Frankly, I don't know if I agree with this or disagree. I can see both sides of the issue. Mental states are very complicated and I think we are starting to approach them in a rather cavalier manner. For example, what about schizophrenia and other emotional disorders? What about the subconscious? How are these issues addressed in the Abhidhamma? To my knowledge they aren't and that makes the Abhidhamma an incomplete model of human emotion. Metta, James 34463 From: agriosinski Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 6:52pm Subject: Re: Go ahead and rain! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: [..] > > Wishing you all a pleasant summer. > > Metta, > Phil If you heading to Ontario, take some warm clothing with you. We have quite cold but still pleasant evenings and nights. Some rain as well, but who cares... Have fun time in Canada, metta, Agrios 34464 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 6, 2004 9:11pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Dear Lee, op 06-07-2004 07:50 schreef Dhammaasoka op dasoka@n...: > 1. Firstly, do we discerning the anicca lakhana when we are in Jhana? >> N: The jhanacittas have absorption concentration with pañña on one > of the meditation subjects of samatha. anicca lakhana is the object of > vipassana. > L: I understand it as in the state of samatha there is no discrnment > of anicca lakhana. Am I understand it correctly? N: Yes. >> L: 2. What does sampajjano actually mean? Is it just knowing the > object or with discernment on anicca? >> N: with sampajañña or pañña (another term for sampajañña), that can > be of the level of samatha or of vipassana. So it depends what the > object is. If it is the realization of impermanence it is vipassana pañña. > L: OK, I was not so sure about this at first as the Abhidhamma defines > "Sampajjanna" with panna etc. So, when we talk about the satipatthana, > the object is for the development of vipassana only and not samatha? N: Yes. Even when we read in the satipatthana sutta about breath the objective is vipassana, insight in the three characteristics. Or when we reda about jhanacitta: jhanacitta should be realized as non-self. >> L: 3. Is the samatha and vipassana actually go together and can't be > single out during our practice in satipatthana? (Without any magga or > phala-citta) >> N: When vipassana is developed there is also calm, samatha, with the > citta. The factors of the eightfold Path which are samadhi, sati and > right effort are actually the concentration of the eightfold Path. But > mind: the object is a nama or rupa that appears. The term: our > practice in satipatthana is confusing. It seems that there is a set > time, whereas satipatthana is just the development of understanding of > any, any reality that appears now, no matter where we are. Any object, > also akusala! > L: I think I used the wrong word that I actually intended. The subject > should be Jhana and Vipassana. Anyway, thanks for the valueble input. N: Jhana is to be object of insight. With insight one should realize the different jhanafactors as namas. >> L: . The 11 ways of discerning the dhamma (pass, current, future, > far, near... etc.) mentioned in suttas is for the purpose of > understanding that the dhamma is always the same in every aspect and > not meant for real discernment? >> N: These 11 ways are said of the five khandhas, they are past > present, future, near, far, coarse, subtle, etc . What has a past, > present and future arises and falls away, it is impermanent. They are > objects of understanding, they are another way of presenting the > ultimate realities of citta, cetasika and rupa (not for the reverend!). > L: Is it mean we can no way discerning the past nama and rupa? As I > noticed that Pa Auk Sayadaw actually teaches students to discern the > past and future. N: The nama or rupa that appears at the present is the object of insight. >> L: 5. When Buddha mentioned that discern internally, discern > externally, discern internally and externally in the Maha Satipatthana > sutta, does He means discerning the six door as internally and the > six respective object as externally and their relationship or process > and internally and externally, or, does Buddha refer internally to > ourselves and externally to others? >> N: As I understand, the last one. You may be touching another's body > and then just hardness presents itself, no person. Or the other > person's sadness appears, this brings you back to your own citta, and > the way you feel about his sadness. It is a reminder. All these > aspects are reminders to bring you back to nama and rupa now. > L: Although I have the same choice as you but I define it as discen > the khandhas of ourselves and others through vipassana. (Even without > direct touching) N: The touching as an example of realizing hardness as a rupa, not mine or self. > >> L: 6. When Buddha said discerning the body as body, feeling as > feeling ...etc, do we discern the body, feeling, cittas and dhamma > through feeling? As the reverend said, through feeling that we feel > the existence of the body, through the feeling we notice the state of > mind and the dhamma as well. Is it the way interpreting the sutta? >> N: No, I do not see it this way. It is sati that is aware and pañña > that understands. Understanding has to be emphasized all the time. It > has to be sharp and keen, and know precisely the nama or rupa that > appears through one of the six doors, one at a time. > L: From the dhiscussion with one of my friend, he said the REverend > might be using the view point of Goenka ji. > >> L: The reverend only accept words from Nikayas and not other than > that. :) >> N: I see! We need not mention any sources, let us just talk about > realities. We can call them in terms of the khandhas. > L: But it is quite difficult to ensure and to be ensured which one is > reality! :) People will usually quotes sayings of the Buddha as their > authority of their teachings. N: But rupakkhandha is rupa, the other four are nama. Maybe the conversation can be about the khandhas, instead of nama and rupa if that is more acceptable. Nina. 34465 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 9:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 7/5/04 1:59:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > nilo@e... > writes: > > > Hi Howard, > -------------------------------------------------- > If you have time> > > and interest you could perhaps indicate where you find the Abh > questionable > > or superfluous. > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, I've raised such matters before, several times, and I'd > rather > not overly get into that. What is useful (as I see it) in the Abhidhamma > far > outweighs what might be viewed by some as superfluous. > ------------------------------------------------ As far as I recall, you've made comments several times about the Abhidhamma, but have declined to specify when invited to do so, as you again do here. Just a personal view, Howard, but if you are inclined to make general comments on the list questioning any part of the teachings, I think you should be prepared to give details if asked to do so. Jon 34466 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 9:17am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Herman You say: > Awareness of the present moment rises and falls with it. One needs to be > quiet to see the ego struggle with its non-existence. I think you have mentioned the theme of 'quietness' in previous posts. I'd be interested to hear more about it. I know it has quite a role in some contemplative orders. Worth discussing further. Also your concept of 'mental silence'. Could you elaborate a little? One further comment. --- Herman Hofman wrote: ... > Some take pride in how wordy the Abhidhamma is. Yet when there is > awareness of the primary source of the Abhidhamma (reality) there is not > a single word in sight !!! Strange indeed that it should take so many > words to describe something so totally non-verbal. The present moment is > such a living, fluctuating reality, yet someone imagined this could be > captured in a valley of dry bones. Weird, totally weird. Do you then make a distinction between the suttas and the abhidhamma in this regard? Both are talking about the same truths, surely. > Some take pride in how difficult it is to master the Abhidhamma, they > take pride in just how many commentaries, and which ones, are necessary > to shed light on the intricate and subtle meanings in this great > intellectual masterpiece. And yet, somehow untangling this web of words > is considered a safer bet than mental silence, because in mental silence > there could be a self?? > > Awareness of the present moment rises and falls with it. One needs to be > quiet to see the ego struggle with its non-existence. Jon 34467 From: Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 5:18am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects In a message dated 7/6/04 12:27:03 PM Pacific Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Yu, the Reverend stated that: > 1. The samatha and vipassana cannot be single out. Both should go hand > in hand. ===== I think this is a fairly common view among Thera teachers. It follows the teachings in the Anapanasati Sutta. Samatha and vipassana are aspects of bhavana (mental development) and were not singled out in the original teachings. In their view, the Buddha taught bhavana as a method . jack 34468 From: icarofranca Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 10:17am Subject: From Palm Leaves to Palm Top, The Human Adventure is Just Beginning Hello, Noble Company of Dhamma Fellows! Some time ago I've bought a Palm Top - a personal portable Computer, also named handheld. After the basics on transfering files to main Computer, converting .doc and .pdf files and so on, I eagerly begun to gather up all files about theravada buddhism around the net, compact and transfer them to my gadget with all skills of the art. And now I can carry with me all suttas,vinayas, abhidhamma treatises, Tiikas and Theravada books as the Patiika and the Ledi Sayadaw's manuals, easily, without effort or cumbersome delay. I am sitting inside the bus, for example,and at the half and a quarter of hour nama and rupa rises and falls on my sensedoors while I read the Mahavagga, the Patiika, the Uposatha Sila and build up my culture with the best of the teachings: the own Buddhadhamma. I think about the first palm leaves' texts and about the very effort to preserve them from climate, fungus, insects and so on: it were a great adventure for itself, worth and sublime by its own ways! I do preserve also the wholeness of my palm Top, keeping it clean and functional at all means and I do feel I am really inside the stream of the true Dhamma!!! The advantages of having gadgets, at american way!!! The only buddhistic texts I haven't yet put inside my palm Top are the Nina van Gorkon's works, with all their exquisite, unique and dutch way to preaching Dhamma: I am afraid to burn up the circuits of the poor machine!!!! From palm leaves to palm Top: The Human Adventure is Just beginning... take the first star right at the horizon and go ahead, helmsman!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34469 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 10:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi again, Howard Apologies if my earlier post sounded a bit curt - sent in a hurry from the internet bar, which I've just popped back to for a moment. I've been enjoying your posts lately, and did not mean to suggest that you should feel any need to elaborate ;-)). The loud music here is driving me crazy, so I won't talk further right now. Jon --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Howard > ... > As far as I recall, you've made comments several times about the > Abhidhamma, but have declined to specify when invited to do so, as you > again do here. > > Just a personal view, Howard, but if you are inclined to make general > comments on the list questioning any part of the teachings, I think you > should be prepared to give details if asked to do so. > > Jon 34470 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Dear Icaro, yes, P.T.S. ed. by Thi.t.tila. Nina. op 06-07-2004 19:42 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: > The Book of Analysis, but unfortunately I > don't know any version of this book on English or other western > language. 34471 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 10:52am Subject: kamma and vipaka Hi Larry and all, I was studying co relating to the tiika about kamma and vipaka and learnt something that impressed me very much. It is explained in the tiika and other commentaries that kammas of different degrees produce rebirth and vipaka during life accordingly. A kamma performed by kusala citta with three roots (thus with wisdom) can be of different degrees: excellent and low. And this was new: when akusala cittas arise before the kusala citta or after it (when you regret the giving afterwards) it conditions the kusala kamma to be less excellent and it renders a lesser vipaka, even rebirth with only two roots. I said to Lodewijk: How intricate is kamma and vipaka, really the field of Buddhas. Lodewijk: And what are we doing meanwhile? Nina: developing understanding of nama and rupa now, these can be known and understood. Today was busy with our regular sutta reading on the Pali list, a bhikkhu is translating for us. Also about beings who fare according to their kammas. Larry, I am still trying to figure out how to answer you, and what the problem is. It depends on my time, I shall see. Today was also my latent tendencies study day. Nina. 34472 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Go ahead and rain! Hello Philip, Have nice holidays and good reading, writing and studying. It will be empty here without you! Best wishes, Nina. op 07-07-2004 00:00 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > I'll be signing off for 6 weeks or so. 34473 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 10:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings op 07-07-2004 01:49 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "If we do not know feeling as pure nama it will always be my > feeling, we shall not reach the goal." L: This I agree. So, if we take desire with pleasant feeling the feeling > seems to have a subtle bodily tension with it. I guess abhidhamma is > useless in telling how this can be but the point is that this bodily > tension is rupa, not feeling. So if we extract the rupa element what is > left? N: Very good. Only pure nama! It is body-consciousness accompanied by bodily feeling, or thinking about it, or lobha and pleasant feeling, etc. A. Sujin also explains it in the way you do. She says, if you take away all rupas it is as if we are in the arupa brahma plane: only namas. L: Let us LOOK by all means. Insight will not arise if we do not look. When > belief in self arises we can recognize that as what it is. It is only an > obstacle if we refuse to look. N: It depends on the kind of looking, unknowingly it can be an idea of self that looks. Or a kind of focussing, and then there is fixation, we get stuck, we are not open to other realities that appear, such as seeing or hearing. We miss them all. Lobha always takes us away from the present object. The Abhidhamma is essential in explaining anatta. Nama and rupa are unimportant, only elements. Nobody can cause their arising or prevent them from arising or push them away. I tried to explain different dhammas in different processes to entangle this tangle. It *seems* that when there is desire with pleasant feeling the feeling seems to have a subtle bodily tension with it, as you say. Let us not be mistaken by what *seems*. Different phenomena in different processes, quite a tangle. We should not confuse bodily feelings and mental feelings, and also bodily feeling is nama. I tried different angles with you to explain matters. I find watching bodily sensations not a good idea, that is why I said: do not over emphasize bodily feelings. When reading the satipatthana sutta, mindfulness of breathing: the meditator has to be aware also of nama, you remember? The Co states that he has to understand dependent origination beginning with ignorance. He Thus, when we hear: mindfulness of the body we should have right understanding. Also nama has to be known. How can one know what rupa is if one does not know what nama is. As to the Abhidhamma: the Buddha did not teach this to make things difficult for us, to cause us to have problems, but only to help us. But the Abhidhamma is not a handbook that solves every problem, every detail of an individual's life, then you expect too much. We have to develop our own understanding with the help of the Tipitaka. What I heard: Also: just investigate different characteristics of nama and rupa one at a time, and do not think of any location where it appears. If that is so, we are only thinking and we do not attend to characteristics. Thus, this is important, do not think of a location where a rupa appears. Another remark: all the things we used to find so important, our fears, happiness, attachment, aversion, worry, these are only dhammas and they are all equal in that sense. Where are they now? They have passed. Then I tried the angle of latent tendencies, to show conditions, and also the fact that we do not just cling to feelings, but to all objects. I do not know whether you have other questions, or whether I answered your questions. Nina. 34474 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 10:53am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi all, I was checking out some of the useful posts to see what others say about Abhidhamma and found the following: "These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of Abhidhamma. The Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these realities and it shows the conditions for all that happens in your life, it shows cause and effect." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5379 "In the Abhidhamma all realities are classified fully and in all details." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11308 "The Abhidhamma is not theory, it explains everything that is real and that appears in our daily life." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11308 "The Abhidhamma gives us all details about citta, cetasika and rupa, and all their intricate conditions." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19456 "Then, we have to know what Abhidhamma is. It is the Buddha's teaching about ultimate realities and these are exactly the objects of insight." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22809 "Well all this is about ultimate realities, it is Abhidhamma." http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22809 Metta, Victor 34475 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 10:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] dialogue about kusala. Dear Nina and Lodewijk (and Phil at the end) I read this post (and a few others) out to my mother in law, Kate. Firstly, she sends her ragards to you both, and is sorry not to have met you (having spent some time with K. Sujin). On this post, Kate wondered why we talk so much about kusala. She thinks that taking enjoyment in the mountain views and the wild-flowers is beneficial ('food for the soul', she calls it) and can't be bad, although she can see that enjoying food, for example, is self-centred. After hearing about 'developed mind' she also commented that her own mind was very untrained, and moved around all the time. Sarah assured her it was the same for us too, but I'm not sure she was convinced! Look forward to hearing more of your discussions with Lodewijk. Jon PS Phil, we'll miss you very much while you're away. Hope you can manage to pop in from time to time. Have a good holiday. --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dialogue about kusala with Lodewijk. ... > The Expositor speaks about being well trained by constant practice of > good > as a condition for the arising of kusala citta. One of the conditions is > also reading a sutta that instills confidence. Lodewijk read a sutta > that > impressed him very much: Gradual Sayings Book of the Ones, no 1: other > thing do I know, O monks, that is so intractable as an undeveloped mind. > An > undeveloped mind is, indeed, an intractible thing. > No other thing do I know, O monks, that is so tractable as a developed > mind. > A developed mind is, indeed, an tractible thing.> 34476 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 11:35am Subject: Metaphysics (Re: Abhidhamma) Hi all, Here is also some information on metaphysics and ontology: Metaphysics is a branch of philosophy, and related to the natural sciences, like physics, psychology and the biology of the brain; and also to mysticism and religious and spiritual subjects. It is notoriously difficult to define, but for purposes of briefly introducing it to nonphilosophers, it can be identified as the study of any of the most fundamental concepts and beliefs about the basic nature of reality, on which many other concepts and beliefs rest -- concepts such as being, existence, universal, property, relation, causation, space, time, event, and many others. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics "What exists", "What is", "What am I", "What is describing this to me", are all examples of questions about being, and highlight the most basic problem in ontology: finding a subject, a relationship, and an object to talk about. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology metaphysics Branch of philosophy that studies the ultimate structure and constitution of reality-i.e., of that which is real, insofar as it is real. http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=397280&query=metaphysics&ct= ontology the theory or study of being as such; i.e., of the basic characteristics of all reality. http://www.britannica.com/eb/article? eu=58583&tocid=0&query=ontology&ct= Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi all, > > I was checking out some of the useful posts to see what others say > about Abhidhamma and found the following: > > "These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of > Abhidhamma. The Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these > realities and it shows the conditions for all that happens in your > life, it shows cause and effect." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5379 > > "In the Abhidhamma all realities are classified fully and in all > details." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11308 > > "The Abhidhamma is not theory, it explains everything that is real > and that appears in our daily life." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11308 > > "The Abhidhamma gives us all details about citta, cetasika and rupa, > and all their intricate conditions." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19456 > > "Then, we have to know what Abhidhamma is. It is the Buddha's > teaching about ultimate realities and these are exactly the objects > of insight." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22809 > > "Well all this is about ultimate realities, it is Abhidhamma." > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22809 > > Metta, > Victor 34477 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 11:52am Subject: Metaphysics (Re: Abhidhamma) Hi all, Again, here is some info about ontology, In philosophy, ontology, is the most fundamental branch of metaphysics. It is the study of being or existence as well as the basic categories thereof. It has strong implications for the conceptions of reality. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi all, > > Here is also some information on metaphysics and ontology: > > > Metaphysics is a branch of philosophy, and related to the natural > sciences, like physics, psychology and the biology of the brain; and > also to mysticism and religious and spiritual subjects. It is > notoriously difficult to define, but for purposes of briefly > introducing it to nonphilosophers, it can be identified as the study > of any of the most fundamental concepts and beliefs about the basic > nature of reality, on which many other concepts and beliefs rest -- > concepts such as being, existence, universal, property, relation, > causation, space, time, event, and many others. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Metaphysics > > > "What exists", "What is", "What am I", "What is describing this to > me", are all examples of questions about being, and highlight the > most basic problem in ontology: finding a subject, a relationship, > and an object to talk about. > > http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ontology > > metaphysics > > Branch of philosophy that studies the ultimate structure and > constitution of reality-i.e., of that which is real, insofar as it > is real. > > http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article? eu=397280&query=metaphysics&ct= > > ontology > > the theory or study of being as such; i.e., of the basic > characteristics of all reality. > > http://www.britannica.com/eb/article? > eu=58583&tocid=0&query=ontology&ct= > > Metta, > Victor > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi all, > > > > I was checking out some of the useful posts to see what others say > > about Abhidhamma and found the following: > > > > "These are realities of your daily life. This is the study of > > Abhidhamma. The Abhdidhamma explains in detail about all these > > realities and it shows the conditions for all that happens in your > > life, it shows cause and effect." > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/5379 > > > > "In the Abhidhamma all realities are classified fully and in all > > details." > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11308 > > > > "The Abhidhamma is not theory, it explains everything that is real > > and that appears in our daily life." > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/11308 > > > > "The Abhidhamma gives us all details about citta, cetasika and > rupa, > > and all their intricate conditions." > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/19456 > > > > "Then, we have to know what Abhidhamma is. It is the Buddha's > > teaching about ultimate realities and these are exactly the > objects > > of insight." > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22809 > > > > "Well all this is about ultimate realities, it is Abhidhamma." > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/22809 > > > > Metta, > > Victor 34478 From: Philip Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 2:35pm Subject: Re: Go ahead and rain! Hi Agrios, Nina, Jon and all. I'll be in my native Quebec, Agrios. You know, though it's my native territory I've come to see it in a new light thanks to Acaya. I'll be looking for that profound moose. Thanks also, Nina and Jon. There's never been a computer at the family summer place, but that may have changed in the 6 years since I've been there. Or maybe I'll be able to get on to someone else's computer and pop in to give a report. In any case, we know how quickly 6 weeks fly by. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "agriosinski" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Philip" wrote: > [..] > > > > Wishing you all a pleasant summer. > > > > Metta, > > Phil > > If you heading to Ontario, take some warm clothing with you. > We have quite cold but still pleasant evenings and nights. > Some rain as well, but who cares... > > Have fun time in Canada, > > metta, > Agrios 34479 From: nori Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi victor & jon, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Nori, > [1] > Majjhima Nikaya 66 > Latukikopama Sutta > The Quail Simile > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html > > "And, Udayin, there are these five strings of sensuality. Which > five? Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, > endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the > ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the > tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body -- agreeable, > pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These are > the five strings of sensuality. Now, any pleasure & happiness that > arises dependent on these five strings of sensuality is called > sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an > ignoble pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is not to be > cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, that it is to be > feared. > So what do you think Gotama the Buddha was experiencing in the following excerpts considering the above ? Maha Parinibbana Suttanta D.ii.115, PTS 41. 'On one occasion, Ananda, I was dwelling at Rajagaha, on the hill called the Vulture's Peak. Now there, Ananda, I spoke to thee and said: "How pleasent a spot, Ananda, is Rajagaha; how pleasent is Vulture's Peak." 47. 'And now today, Ananda, at the Chapala Shrine, I spoke to thee and said:-"How delightful a spot, Ananda, is Vesali, how charming the Udena Shrine, and the Gotamaka Shrine and the Shrine of the Seven Mangoes..." Now gotama the arahant Buddha, has he not developed equanimity ? Should not a sewer or charnel ground be no more or less pleasent than Vesali ? Why do you think in one case he teaches: "... Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming,... these ... is called sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an ignoble pleasure." .. and at another moment he says: "How delightful a spot, Ananda, is Vesali, how charming the Udena Shrine..." ? nori 34480 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 4:17pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Jon, I sincerely hope Sarah, you and her Mum are having a good time. I'd hate to think you guys have gone to all the effort of going half-way round the world just to watch the transit of paticasamapuddha :-). Namas and rupas are much the same all round the world, perhaps they are a bit fresher in Switzerland :-) I'm sorry to be butting in on your chat with Howard, but.... If a commentary or other secondary work, which purports to draw out the meanings of a primary source, introduces material not found in the primary source, then it is not a commentary, but becomes a primary source in its own right. The various flavours of Buddhism there for the savouring have sprung into existence because of their "commentarial drawing out" only. Promotion of one drawing out over another are silly at best, and do nothing to encourage the student of reality to see for themselves, where the difference is going to be made. Reality requires no drawing out. I could start pointing to material in the Abhidhamma that is not to be found in the Nikayas. This would then raise the possibility that others would go to some length to prove me wrong, or show, by some drawing out, how X actually means Y and that this is what the Buddha actually meant, even though it seems different. I hope you can see that this would be an academic, fruitless exercise, amounting to nothing more than a projection of intentions. What is real is beyond question. If you find that the Theravadan Abhidhamma in its entirety is a valid and accurate description of everything experienced and experiencable, well, good for you :-). What would be worth asking myself, if I found myself having such a view, is "Why this view?". It is beyond imagination that the Bahiya Sutta and the Ultimate Book of Ultimate Views come from the same author. Watch out for those cows with bells :-) Herman -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@y...] Sent: Thursday, 8 July 2004 2:04 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Nina - > > In a message dated 7/5/04 1:59:54 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > nilo@e... > writes: > > > Hi Howard, > -------------------------------------------------- > If you have time> > > and interest you could perhaps indicate where you find the Abh > questionable > > or superfluous. > ------------------------------------------------- > Howard: > Well, I've raised such matters before, several times, and I'd > rather > not overly get into that. What is useful (as I see it) in the Abhidhamma > far > outweighs what might be viewed by some as superfluous. > ------------------------------------------------ As far as I recall, you've made comments several times about the Abhidhamma, but have declined to specify when invited to do so, as you again do here. Just a personal view, Howard, but if you are inclined to make general comments on the list questioning any part of the teachings, I think you should be prepared to give details if asked to do so. Jon 34481 From: Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings Hi Nina, Thanks for all your efforts. I'm somewhat pacified now. The main point I wanted to emphasize is that feeling isn't rupa, even bodily feeling. If we look carefully we can begin to see how very elusive and ephemeral even strong feeling is. Where all this rupa comes from that is associated with feeling I have no idea, but maybe it doesn't matter. It could be that sense sphere consciousness is particularly intermingled with rupa. As for whether to look or not, I agree it is the interpretation that determines whether the consciousness is kusala with understanding or akusala with misunderstanding or kusala without understanding or akusala without misunderstanding. Also we could look at whether the prompting, if there is any, is kusala or akusala and whether it is with understanding or not or with misunderstanding or not. Larry 34482 From: Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 1:15pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/7/04 12:04:59 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > As far as I recall, you've made comments several times about the > Abhidhamma, but have declined to specify when invited to do so, as you > again do here. ------------------------------------------ Howard: Now, Jon, you are just plain mistaken here. I've raised questions about many specific matters, for example about jivitindriya and gender (I forget the Pali therm) as dhammas, and numerous other matters as well which I haven't bothered keeping records of. I've brought up several specifics, mainly with Nina over the years. But I'm not in the mood to engage in disputes. I value the Abhidhamma greatly, but have some reservations about it. C'est la vie, n'est ce pas? --------------------------------------------- > > Just a personal view, Howard, but if you are inclined to make general > comments on the list questioning any part of the teachings, I think you > should be prepared to give details if asked to do so. > > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: Been there ... done that. If you would prefer that I sit back and be a "good boy" with regard to Abhidhamma, well, I'll have to think about what that means to me. There is always available the option of moderating my troublesome posts, Jon. =============================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34483 From: Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 1:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/7/04 1:47:11 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi again, Howard > > Apologies if my earlier post sounded a bit curt - sent in a hurry from the > internet bar, which I've just popped back to for a moment. > > I've been enjoying your posts lately, and did not mean to suggest that you > should feel any need to elaborate ;-)). > > The loud music here is driving me crazy, so I won't talk further right > now. > > Jon > ============================ Thank you for writing back. Your suspicion as to how your post might have been received by me is right on target as the tone of my reply surely makes clear. I apologize for expressing anger, and I do much appreciate this friendly follow-up post of yours. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34484 From: seisen_au Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 5:41pm Subject: Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Nina, all, Nina van gorkom wrote: > And this was new: when akusala cittas arise before the kusala citta > or after it > (when you regret the giving afterwards) it conditions the kusala > kamma to be less excellent and it renders a lesser vipaka, > even rebirth with only two roots. > Nina. Would it be the case also that an akusala kammas vipaka can be lessened if followed by kusala citta? What about the case of an akusala kamma committed previously and many years later one was to reflect on that deed with kusala cittas, eg. panna, hiriottapa, karuna were to arise concerning that previous akusaka kamma. Would that akusala kammas vipaka be lessened? Steve. 34485 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 6:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Nori and all, Let me reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi victor & jon, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Nori, > > > [1] > > Majjhima Nikaya 66 > > Latukikopama Sutta > > The Quail Simile > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html > > > > "And, Udayin, there are these five strings of sensuality. Which > > five? Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, > charming, > > endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the > > ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the > > tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body -- agreeable, > > pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These > are > > the five strings of sensuality. Now, any pleasure & happiness that > > arises dependent on these five strings of sensuality is called > > sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an > > ignoble pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is not to be > > cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, that it is to > be > > feared. > > > > So what do you think Gotama the Buddha was experiencing in the > following excerpts considering the above ? I don't know exactly what the Buddha was experiencing at the time of speaking to Ananda as in the following excerpts. However, as you have pointed out in the excerpts, when dwelling at Vultures' Peak, the Buddha said to Ananda that "Pleasant, Ananda, is Rajagaha; pleasant is Vultures' Peak."[1] So what is pleasant about Rajagaha and Vultures' Peak (and Vesali and the shrines of Udena, Gotamaka, Sattambaka, Bahuputta, Sarandada, and Capala)? As I see it, these places would offer agreeable dwelling for seclusion. They were conducive for being alone such that one could experience the pleasure of seclusion at ease. In that sense, I see that the Buddha called these places "pleasant." > > Maha Parinibbana Suttanta D.ii.115, PTS > > 41. 'On one occasion, Ananda, I was dwelling at Rajagaha, on the hill > called the Vulture's Peak. Now there, Ananda, I spoke to thee and > said: "How pleasent a spot, Ananda, is Rajagaha; how pleasent is > Vulture's Peak." > > 47. 'And now today, Ananda, at the Chapala Shrine, I spoke to thee > and said:-"How delightful a spot, Ananda, is Vesali, how charming the > Udena Shrine, and the Gotamaka Shrine and the Shrine of the Seven > Mangoes..." > > Now gotama the arahant Buddha, has he not developed equanimity ? Yes, the Buddha had developed equanimity. > > Should not a sewer or charnel ground be no more or less pleasent than > Vesali ? A sewer or charnel ground would be unpleasant for dwelling. > > Why do you think in one case he teaches: "... Forms cognizable via > the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming,... these ... is called > sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an > ignoble pleasure." > > .. and at another moment he says: "How delightful a spot, Ananda, is > Vesali, how charming the Udena Shrine..." ? That Buddha taught what he taught because sensuality, the desire and passion for sensual pleasures, leads to the dukkha. Why did the Buddha say to Ananda: "Pleasant, Ananda, is Rajagaha; pleasant is Vultures' Peak."? Given the context of the discourse, it was part of the Buddha's suggestion to Ananda for entreating the Tathagata to "remain throughout a world-period or until the end of it."[2] > > nori Metta, Victor [1] Digha Nikaya 16 Maha-parinibbana Sutta Last Days of the Buddha http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/digha/dn16.html [2] Ibid. 34486 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 8:17pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Sujjhana Bhinnatta" wrote: > Dear Ken and all, > > I am happy to see my post stimulated some very interesting discussions. Ken, > I'm not going to address your comments individually like I have in the past. Hi Binnatta, I can see why you changed your format: the "non-reality" which you perceive in nama and rupa renders most of my points inconsequential. I hope my lack of reply (until now) hasn't given the wrong impression: I am looking forward to your answer to Jon's question. ---------------------------- B: > Ironically, we have unwittingly ventured down the same line of discussion that originally led Moggaliputta-tissa to write his Kathavatthu. > ------------------------------ I'd appreciate some details if you have time. Never a great reader, I rely on other dsg members for my Abhidhamma knowledge. ------------------- B: > Eliminating this belief in "ultimate realities," one is able to explain the contents of the Abhidhamma in terms of the two main teachings of the Buddha, namely anatta and paticcasamuppada. > ------------------- My experience has been the exact opposite: it is purely because nama and rupa are absolutely real that their characteristic, anatta, has any meaning whatsoever. Similarly, the laws of conditionality, paticcasamuppada, have no meaning if there are no realities to condition and be conditioned. ------------------ B: > Through faith in the teachings and sustained and effortful practice of the Eight-fold path, I believe we can all uproot our defilements and kilesas and cross over to the other shore. Once there, however, we must leave even the Dhamma behind. I'm reminded of a Zen saying that goes something like this: "If you see the Buddha walking down the road, kill him." > ---------------------- Zen sayings are usually too cryptic for me. This one would have to be directed at arahants, would it not? We wouldn't want to put the raft down before we have finished with it. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34487 From: Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 4:34pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/7/04 11:19:52 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > My experience has been the exact opposite: it is purely because nama > and rupa are absolutely real that their characteristic, anatta, has > any meaning whatsoever. Similarly, the laws of conditionality, > paticcasamuppada, have no meaning if there are no realities to > condition and be conditioned. > > ======================= I wish you could specify what you mean by "absolutely real" and by "realities," because o the face of it, an absolute reality and anatta don't go together so very well! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34488 From: nori Date: Wed Jul 7, 2004 9:47pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Victor, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > So what is pleasant about Rajagaha and Vultures' Peak (and Vesali > and the shrines of Udena, Gotamaka, Sattambaka, Bahuputta, > Sarandada, and Capala)? > > As I see it, these places would offer agreeable dwelling for > seclusion. They were conducive for being alone such that one could > experience the pleasure of seclusion at ease. In that sense, I see > that the Buddha called these places "pleasant." So what do you think, if Gotama the Buddha were at another location, conducive for being alone in the pleasure of seclusion, a place quiet and conducive for contemplation, however it smelled awful, or the scenery was not as beautiful or charming, do you think he would find that location equally as 'Pleasant' to proclaim so as he did to Ananda ? metta, nori 34489 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Nori and all, I would not call a place pleasant if it smells awful. :-) Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi Victor, > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > > So what is pleasant about Rajagaha and Vultures' Peak (and Vesali > > and the shrines of Udena, Gotamaka, Sattambaka, Bahuputta, > > Sarandada, and Capala)? > > > > As I see it, these places would offer agreeable dwelling for > > seclusion. They were conducive for being alone such that one > could > > experience the pleasure of seclusion at ease. In that sense, I > see > > that the Buddha called these places "pleasant." > > So what do you think, if Gotama the Buddha were at another location, > conducive for being alone in the pleasure of seclusion, a place > quiet and conducive for contemplation, however it smelled awful, or > the scenery was not as beautiful or charming, do you think he would > find that location equally as 'Pleasant' to proclaim so as he did to > Ananda ? > > metta, > nori 34490 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 2:40am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I'm sorry to be butting in on your chat with Howard, but.... > Hi Herman, It's too quiet here; I'm going to butt in on your butting in. :-) ------------- H: > If a commentary or other secondary work, which purports to draw out the meanings of a primary source, introduces material not found in the primary source, then it is not a commentary, but becomes a primary source in its own right. > --------------- Which secondary work do you have in mind? The Abhidhamma is not a secondary work. --------------- H: > The various flavours of Buddhism there for the savouring have sprung into existence because of their "commentarial drawing out" only. > ---------------------------- You've lost me. I think the major Buddhist schools rely on their own primary sources - including their own suttas. Maybe that's not what you mean. Are you saying the suttas are self-explanatory? --------------- H: > Promotion of one drawing out over another are silly at best, and do nothing to encourage the student of reality to see for themselves, where the difference is going to be made. > ---------------- Lost again! :-) Which competing `drawing- outs' are we talking about? The Abhidhamma does not draw out the suttas: the Abhidhamma comes first. If anything, the suttas condense the Abhidhamma. --------------- H: > Reality requires no drawing out. > --------------- Why doesn't it? ---------------- H: > I could start pointing to material in the Abhidhamma that is not to be found in the Nikayas. > ----------------- There is nothing controversial about that. Both the Abhidhamma and the Nikayas are the teaching of the Buddha. Can you point to anything in the Abhidhamma that is contrary to the Nikayas? --------------------------- H: > This would then raise the possibility that others would go to some length to prove me wrong, or show, by some drawing out, how X actually means Y and that this is what the Buddha actually meant, even though it seems different. ----------------------------- When you and I read suttas, Y might seem to be saying X, but if the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries say it is Y, then Y it is. ----------------- H: > I hope you can see that this would be an academic, fruitless exercise, amounting to nothing more than a projection of intentions. > ----------------- Forget the opinions of uninstructed worldlings; if something in the Tipitaka is unclear, let's ascertain the opinions of the ancient Theras. ------------------- H: > What is real is beyond question. > ------------------- When we don't understand what is real, questions are only natural. ------------------ H: > If you find that the Theravadan Abhidhamma in its entirety is a valid and accurate description of everything experienced and experiencable, well, good for you :-). ------------------ Comprehensive, `see for yourself,' proof is some way off (even for Jon). In the meantime, if you can see any internal contradictions in the Theravada texts, please, point them out! ----------------- H: > What would be worth asking myself, if I found myself having such a view, is "Why this view?". ----------------- Because it is the view sought by students of Theravada Buddhism. ----------------- H: > It is beyond imagination that the Bahiya Sutta and the Ultimate Book of Ultimate Views come from the same author. ------------------ Sorry, I don't know my suttas that well; what does the Bahiya Sutta say that is it irreconcilable with [what I assume you mean as] the Abhidhamma? ----------------- H: > Watch out for those cows with bells :-) ---------------- A joke appreciated by those who know the Bahiya Sutta, no doubt. Serves me right for butting in. Hey, "butting!" Get it? :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34491 From: Antony Woods Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 4:49am Subject: Anatta and Kamma by Ajahn Jagaro Anatta (Non-self) and Kamma (Karma) The Best Kept Secret in the Universe by Ajahn Jagaro The teaching on Anatta or non-self is one of the most fundamental aspects of Buddhism, and may be the most important feature which makes the Buddha's teaching quite unique. The other aspect of the teaching which is sometimes seen to be difficult to reconcile or explain, in terms of anatta, is the teaching of kamma or the law of kamma, which is the law of cause and results. The causes we create through our actions of body, speech and mind, and the consequences that arise from these actions. The law of kamma states that as we sow so shall we reap, and whatever kamma we shall do, we will be the heirs that inherit it. This to many people seems somewhat of a contradiction. On the one part we have the teaching of anatta, that there is no self or a personal permanent constant entity. So how can there be someone who inherits the results of what they do now? So this evening I would like to speak on these two aspects of the teaching and also how they relate to each other, possibly illustrate how there is no contradiction at all. It is quite the opposite in fact, for to understand one it does require the other. Actually when the Buddha taught the teaching of anatta or non-self, it needed or required the law of kamma, the law of conditionality, and the law of dependent origination to fill in the gap. The concept of anatta or non-self is of great importance in Buddha's teaching, and it is the one aspect of the teaching which is quite often found by newcomers to Buddhism, or even traditional Buddhists, to be very difficult to understand. Elusive, abstract and foreign. These terms could be used to describe how we react to this teaching when we hear it, and rightly so. There is nothing from our experience - the way we experience life, perceive life, think and communicate - which would give the secret away. It is the best kept secret in the universe. Only a Buddha or someone with the qualities and perfections of a Buddha could possibly penetrate this mystery or the secret without the guidance of another. That is why it is rare for a Buddha to arise in the world to penetrate this particular fundamental truth. It is so difficult because their are no hints. Even Sherlock Holmes could not have solved this one. It is completely contrary to what the appearance seems to indicate, and this is the teaching of non-self. What the teaching says is, that within this human being, consisting of mind and body, or consisting of body and the mental attributes of feeling, perception, mental formations and consciousness, there is no permanent, personal entity which can be called a self or soul or ego. It does not sound right. Our experience seems to point back to someone in here, who is the experiencer, who owns "me" and "mine." This is the appearance which seems real. Even when people develop high states of meditation, as they did before the Buddha in India, where there were many different systems of religious teachers, spiritual seekers with their own systems of training of the mind, who were very accomplished, they simply were stuck on this appearance of a permanent self. There was a centre to all this subjective experience. There was a self, a centre point. Someone in there who is experiencing. Therefore every teaching that came out of India seemed to revolve around this one form or another dealing with this atman or atta or self or ego. In Christianity we have the soul. So there are many different notions about this core which is the real me, and everything else are attributes of me - my things, my body, my thoughts or my feelings. The me was the root of all these. So the Buddha in his teaching has burst the bubble and realised for himself that there was really no self, no real point that was a centre, and there was no self as such, and taught the teaching of no-self. But non-self is not meaning nothing, no personality. Of course you are you, the person sitting there. There is a mind and body, there is a personality, but there is no permanent entity. No aspect of that which you take yourself to be, which is permanent, or personal in the sense of being independent. And I will elaborate on this. What do we mean by what we call atta or self? What attributes should a self or soul have? A self or soul, if it is really you, should have, in order to have any significance or meaning so that it is really you, the following characteristics: 1. It has to be independent; otherwise how could it be really you. If other things can make it change, how can it be really you? So it has to stand independently. 2. If it is really yours, it must be completely in your power. This is a reasonable definition of me, which must be fulfilled for me to be real. If this 'me' does not fulfil this definition or does not have these attributes, then it is a fantasy. An 'I' or soul or 'me' dependent on other things, which changes dependent on other things, cannot be much of a 'me'. How can it be mine if I cannot completely control it? For example, consider an object which I possess like a watch. You can speak about it and say that this is my watch. None of you will disagree with that. It's my watch. That is the appearance in conventional reality, but if you look more closely, is it true? Is it really my watch in an absolute sense, other than in a conventionally accepted sense or merely for normal usage? In an absolute sense, it is not my watch, because I am going to lose it one day. Something will happen to it or it will get stolen, or I will die and somebody will inherit it. So in an absolute sense it is not mine, but something that will be with me temporarily. It really belongs where it comes from - the resources of the planet. Where will it go back - to the resources of the planet, like the matter of the universe. That is where it comes from and it will go back there. It is mine temporarily. So it is not mine in an absolute sense. Let us apply the same analogy to internal phenomena. That which is closest to me, 'my body', and we find that in actual fact when you apply this analysis, it is no different than the watch. As far as where the body comes from and where it goes back to, it is the same as the watch. Because of its changeability you can't say that it is mine. If it is mine I would make it different to what it is. It does not behave as I want it to, neither does your body behave as you want it to. You would notice this when we apply the same standards. If it is mine, I must have complete power to make it as I wish and I would wish everything that is mine be just as I wanted always, and I would be perfectly happy. Of course no one has ever been able to do that. But we all try and we all feel tremendous frustration at our inability to succeed. So not mine are the emotional feelings, perceptions, mental formations, thoughts, consciousness itself and the way the mental process operates. We'll apply the same analysis and see whether you can make your feelings as you want them to be and your thoughts to be as you want them to be. How many times a day do you feel what you don't want to feel, and remember what you don't want to remember, and think what you don't want to think? Your consciousness may dwell on some state of mind you do not want to have. The more you do not want to have, the more it comes out. Is this I really yours? And what is it in there that is you? What is it in this being that is sitting here 'you'? Am I the centre 'me' standing independently of everything else or is there anything else? The Buddha said no, and he stated it in no confusing terms. He stated very clearly - anatta, not self over and over again. Somebody might try to reinterpret the teaching of the Buddha as if there is some other self. In the Buddha's teaching there is no self to be found in this mind and body, of any form or any shape either in it or out of it anywhere. No self - full stop. But this is not to be accepted through belief, but to be realised through careful investigation. It is a well kept secret and only a mind which is extraordinarily well trained and disciplined and also knowledgeable can break through to this truth. The signs are not so easy to read. The conditioning is so strong. However we are fortunate that we have the seeds. The seeds are being planted in our minds through the Buddha's teaching. You have heard the possibility, rather than hearing over and over again that the real you is within you, the soul - and after it dies it will go to heaven or hell. That is the real self. You believe it whether you understand or not. Maybe actually there is nobody there, nobody at home at all. So you can't forget that now. So when your mind is strong enough, through the practice of meditation, this inquiry will start. What is it that is me? What is it that I take myself to be? Look with clarity and attention, and it is possible to realise directly the teaching of non-self. The only time that one can really understand is when you see it with insight. Until then we can appreciate logically and intellectually, think about it, but we cannot have that direct seeing. Until we have that direct seeing we do not have right view. We cannot have the right view with regard to the nature of the body and mind. So one needs to get this as a personal subjective experience through insight. However it is sufficient for now to dwell and point out what the Buddha taught about anatta. There is no self in this body or in the mind process. I stress the word process because the body and the mind is not one lump of stationary matter and stationary mental states. It is an ongoing process, dynamically moving, changing always, and becoming something else, and this is when we come to the other aspects of the teaching of the Buddha. When there is no self how can this continue, how can it keep going? What is there if there is no self, if there is no one there? How does this function? Here the Buddha mentions the fundamental laws that operate in the universe. They are not created by anybody. They are not dependent on somebody's power. The existence of samsara implies these laws. The laws imply samsara. This is what samsara is. These are the laws that control it. These fundamental laws can be broken down into several. The broadest one is the law of conditionality. Usually we say that this is the law of cause and effect. This is not a good terminology because it is much more complicated than that. It is the law of conditionality. Broadly speaking, what it means is that, whatever arises, arises from conditions. When the conditions are there the result comes about. When the conditions are not there the result cannot come about. The Buddha expressed in a very succinct statement: When this is, that is. When this arises, that arises. When this is not, that is not. When this ceases, that ceases. You can apply this to a whole range of phenomena, physical and mental, internal or external, animate or inanimate. It is just a fundamental law that operates all the time without somebody ruling over it. That is all inclusive. There is nothing outside it. According to the law of conditionality based on conditions the results come about. When the conditions are not there the results cannot come about. I often repeat this story - how a Buddhist and a Christian may perceive something. When I was in Perth monastery, it was raining and some people came to the monastery with some children. They were Christian children. Only the parents were Buddhist. I asked the children why it is raining, and they said because God makes the rain. I said I don't believe that. They asked me what I think about why it rains. I said because the conditions are right for it to rain - the atmospheric conditions, the temperature, wind and the clouds, and because everything is right for it to rain and it rains. Not because it is somebody's will to make it rain. This is an impersonal law, it is not biased. Completely unbiased and fair in its operation. It operates at the internal level too. The law of kamma basically is that dependent on what we intentionally do, through body, speech and mind, there will be results. The nature of these results will be determined by the nature of the intention. If the intention behind the action is wholesome, the result will be pleasant or wholesome. If the nature of the action is unwholesome, the result will be unpleasant. This is the specific application of the law of conditionality. Dependent on the causes the result will come about. Volition is one area of consciousness where the human mind has the ability to will. We can will the body to action, we can will our speech or thought. Quite often this is the mental attribute that people identify most strongly with as mine. If you have been meditating for some time you will probably know what I mean. When you look into yourself or listen to yourself, what does me identify mostly with? I 'will', so it must be me. I am the one who is doing this. I am the one who is asking and I am the one who is answering. I can choose to stand up or sit down. This must be me. We identify strongly with our will, intention or volition, because it appears to be the centre. But this is also no-self, and this is where you have to apply your attention very carefully. Even the volition is conditioned. Why do you will something? Why do you choose something? Why do you choose to come to the BSV and not go somewhere else? You have a choice. There is a volition there. That volition was conditioned by previous experience, thoughts, feelings and previous volition etc. So that volition or choice is not an independent thing. The choice that we make is also conditioned. Why do you think, why do you act, and speak the way you do, the choices you make? It is the result of past conditioning. So even our choice (cetana), intention, or volition is kamma. This aspect of our mind is conditioned by the past. The fundamental force that drives us to make choices is the quest for happiness. Your volition comes from the quest for happiness. Your experience in the quest for happiness helps to shape your volitions, and in what directions they will drive you. So when you have this volition, intention to do, to speak and think, it is a force. Having spoken, having acted, having thought, is a force set in motion. It will have its consequences. It will shape something in the future. Immediately it will shape the state of your mind psychologically. You think an angry thought, or speak angrily, you will feel associated with it a negative state of mind. Psychologically you get a reaction almost immediately. But there will probably be other results, which can come later on, because you have set something in motion, and that will or intention is like sowing a seed. It will bring some growth with results and fruits. This is the law of kamma. Each volitional act will bring results which psychologically may be very quick, but quite often may take some time, to come about. The Buddha said that some results come in this life and some in future lives. The nature of the volition will determine the nature of the result. Now at the time of death what will happen? Imagine how strong this force is. See it now in your life while you are living. This will or force that animates this body to walk around, drive it for how many years, to do this and that. Do you think at death this force will just expire and go into nothingness? The Buddha said it does not. This force, this volition which is kamma, at the time of death will in itself, just like any other force, cause the arising of a new conscious moment, as it does in the present existence. Consciousness is an arising and a ceasing. It is flowing, but that does not mean it is smooth. It is always arising and ceasing. Every conscious state of mind is flicking into existence and passing away. If you pay attention you can see that. At the time of death as the mind ceases, the last ceasing consciousness in this body causes the arising of consciousness in a new body, with a new physical base. And what arises is determined by the quality of the consciousness at the time of death. The quality of the previous consciousness conditions the arising of the new consciousness. Now if there is no self, if there is no one there, can this process really continue like this on and on? The question that is often put is, if there is no self, the person who is going to inherit the kamma is a different person than that who he now is. Is it not? Why should I care? I am not going to get the results. I can do what I want. That poor guy down the road is going to get all the results. It is interesting as an abstract thought. You can contemplate what you are experiencing now. Who is experiencing if there is no self? There is still experience. There is pleasure and pain, pleasant and unpleasant experience. There is no self, but the feeling is real, the state of mind is real, the happiness and unhappiness is real. These are real states of the mind though there is no self experiencing them. These states come about from past causes. The person who caused those conditions for the present state was you, or someone else. It does not matter. You are experiencing it now and it is a reality. The Buddha's teaching is that there is an individuality in this process. The individuality of the process is there, the continuity of the mind and body in this life, conventionally speaking. You are the mind and the body process and there is a continuity and an individuality of the process. It's your mind and body and not my mind and body which continues from birth to death in this life. But there is the same continuity and individuality into the next life. You don't get cross wires. Your stream of mind and body does not get mixed up with my stream of mind and body. My state of mind and body does not get mixed up in what is in your account and vice versa. It stays in each person's account. There is a continuity in this stream of mind and body and this is the law of kamma. The individuality is there but there is no individual in it. So what you do now will bring about results down the road. Who will experience it? You will be there just as much as you are here now. You are here now just as much as you were present in this stream 100 years ago or a thousand lifetimes ago. You were just as much you then, as you are now. And as long as you are this stream now you will be the same stream a thousand lifetimes in the future. What is the experiencing? There is the pleasure, there is pain, there is suffering and happiness. How do you feel about pain and suffering now? It is not liked by anyone, whether it is you or another. It is the same a thousand lifetimes before, as now. The relationship with the experience is the same. No one likes pain. Even though there is no you like a constant personal entity in this stream, still there is this relationship that pain and unhappiness is not wanted. It is difficult to bear. So we don't create conditions that bring about this suffering. The person who is sitting here now is not completely different from the person who came here last week, but not completely the same person either. Dependent on the past the present is, dependent on the present the future will be. So the idea of kamma simply implies that the way we live, what we do intentionally, volitionally, will have consequences. Not as punishment, not as reward. There is none who punishes, and none who rewards. That is because it is a law of nature, the law of conditionality. Volitional action will bring about results, and the nature of the results is determined by the nature of the volitional action. If it is positive it will bring about positive results, and of course if negative, unhappy results will follow and our relationship to the pleasant or unpleasant experience will be the same in the future as it is now. We do not want to be with that which is unpleasant. So the Buddha encourages over and over again, to cultivate good kamma. Feel what you feel now, and you will know the importance of planting the right seed for the future. There is no contradiction at all in the teaching of anatta and kamma. They flow together very well because of the law of dependent origination and the law of kamma. That is why it works the way it does, without anybody ordering it. It is orderly by its very nature. Any teaching that has got the teaching of kamma could be expected to sow the seeds of goodness. Any teaching which denies the law of kamma would open the door to irresponsible selfishness because you can get away with it. So this is considered the basic quality of a religion or philosophy, which will bring about good social structure and personal relationship, good moral standards, good virtuous upright living. It does not matter whether people have different religious beliefs, if they have the law of kamma by whatever word they call it, they can live together. It does not contradict with the law of anatta. Because there is no one driving, no one in the driver's seat, the laws operate and everything is orderly. No punishment, no reward, on favours, just orderly. (from "Buddhaloka", the Newsletter of the Buddhist Society of Victoria, July/August 1997 http://www.bsv.net.au 34492 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Jon, Thanks for the post and the questions. I have been slaving over my company tax today and will probably need all tomorrow as well. When it comes to tax, my motto is "why do today what you can do tomorrow, or at the last minute". I will try and have a half-intelligible reply out on the week-end sometime :-). Thanks Herman -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@y...] Sent: Thursday, 8 July 2004 2:17 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Herman You say: > Awareness of the present moment rises and falls with it. One needs to be > quiet to see the ego struggle with its non-existence. I think you have mentioned the theme of 'quietness' in previous posts. I'd be interested to hear more about it. I know it has quite a role in some contemplative orders. Worth discussing further. Also your concept of 'mental silence'. Could you elaborate a little? One further comment. --- Herman Hofman wrote: ... > Some take pride in how wordy the Abhidhamma is. Yet when there is > awareness of the primary source of the Abhidhamma (reality) there is not > a single word in sight !!! Strange indeed that it should take so many > words to describe something so totally non-verbal. The present moment is > such a living, fluctuating reality, yet someone imagined this could be > captured in a valley of dry bones. Weird, totally weird. Do you then make a distinction between the suttas and the abhidhamma in this regard? Both are talking about the same truths, surely. > Some take pride in how difficult it is to master the Abhidhamma, they > take pride in just how many commentaries, and which ones, are necessary > to shed light on the intricate and subtle meanings in this great > intellectual masterpiece. And yet, somehow untangling this web of words > is considered a safer bet than mental silence, because in mental silence > there could be a self?? > > Awareness of the present moment rises and falls with it. One needs to be > quiet to see the ego struggle with its non-existence. Jon 34493 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 6:32am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Ken, Here's hoping you don't work for the ATO :-) Bit tied up at the moment, should be able to focus on more interesting things, like your post, by the week-end. But just to keep the ball rolling, a few points to consider. When you say that the Abhidhamma comes first, I wonder if you mean that in a historical sense. Because there is no reference in the suttas to the Abhidhamma (not to be confused with abhidhamma or abhivinaya) but there is reference to the suttas in the Abhidhamma, I think the assumption that the suttas historically preceded the Abhidhamma is a safe one. Secondly, the vinaya and the suttas are strictly an oral tradition, while the Abhidhamma is strictly a written tradition. Big difference, or what ? Catch you later Herman I'll snip your post, but requite it when I reply on the weekend. 34494 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 7:39am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > > Thanks for the post and the questions. I have been slaving over my > company tax today and will probably need all tomorrow as well. When it > comes to tax, my motto is "why do today what you can do tomorrow, or at > the last minute". You have my sympathy. > I will try and have a half-intelligible reply out on the week-end > sometime :-). Looking forward to it. Hope you get the other business out of the way without too much hassle (opportunity to experience the characteristic of dosa, perhaps ...). Jon 34495 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 7:48am Subject: Re: [dsg] Go ahead and rain! Hi, Phil --- Philip wrote: > ... > There is found this, the first verse in the Thergata: > > "My hut is roofed, comfortable, > free of drafts; > my mind, well-centered, > set free. > I remain ardent. > So, rain-deva. > Go ahead & rain." > > > Now, I remember having come across this before somehwere, > perhaps a year ago, before I came to DSG. And I can remember that at > that time, I took "ardent" to mean filled with loving-kindness that > could dispel all the woes of life, and also thought about focusing on > the breath in a way that would shelter me. I was wrong. Now I feel > that "ardent" reflects the right effort that is looking at realities > in the moment, having both wholesome and unwholesome mental > states/moments as objects of awareness, and not being thrown into > unskillful deeds by either of them, because I have begun to see that > they are not self and will fall away soon enough, to be replaced by > other mental states/moments that arise in a conditioned way beyond my > control. It can rain, and will rain, but now I have begun - just > begun- to see rain for what it really is, and the citta processes > that it causes to arise. Thanks for the Thera/Therigatha verse, and for your comments on 'ardent'; both very inspiring. Yes, right effort is the effort that accompanies right view, as I understand it, so the person who is ardent is one in whom right view is arising. Different from the conventional idea of 'effort', but still performing a function that meets that description. Jon 34496 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 8:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi, Victor > I would say that the Buddha taught the guidelines of sati, > sampajañña and atappa in meditation practice, the ajaans provide > explanations about these guidelines, and it takes practice and > exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, > sampajañña and atappa. Again, I am reminded of a previous discussion of ours. If I recall correctly, you took the view that the suttas are self-contained and, except in the case of certain suttas whose meaning needs to be drawn out, should be read as they stand, and on this basis you reject the need for reference to the commentaries. However, here you seem to be saying that as regards satipatthana the suttas contain only the guidelines and need the explanation of (certain) current-day ajaans in order to be properly understood. Is there an inconsistency between this comment and your earlier position? In my view, the observations of the commentators dating from the time of the Buddha are bound to be a much more reliable explanation of the guidelines contained in the suttas. In any event, one would have to ask from what source the current-day ajaans derived the knowledge on which their explantions are based (for example, the comment about 'sending mindfulness out to refer to its object -- such as the body -- and then bringing it back inwards to refer to the heart', or the assertion that sampajanna has to be firmly in place first; do these have any basis in the suttas?). There is so much material in the commentaries and other texts about sati, sampajanna and atapi. In my experience, a consideration of this material can be very rewarding. > and it takes practice and > exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, > sampajañña and atappa. Understanding at the experiential level (patipatti, 'practice') must be preceded by correct understanding at the intellectual level (pariyatti). I would not see it as a trial and error kind of thing, as 'exploration' seems to imply. Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Lee and all, ... > Different meditation teachers may have different interpretation on > sampajañña. For examples, in > Frames of Reference > by > Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/frames.html > > Ajaan Lee explains sati, sampajañña, and atappa as following: > > > 1. Sati: mindfulness; powers of reference. 2. Sampajañña: alertness. > This has to be firmly in place before sending mindfulness out to > refer to its object -- such as the body -- and then bringing it back > inwards to refer to the heart. 3. Atappa: focused investigation, > analyzing the object into its various aspects. > > > whereas in > The Path of > Concentration & Mindfulness > by > Thanissaro Bhikkhu > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html > > Ajaan Thanissaro explains them as: > > As you do this, you develop three qualities of mind. One is > mindfulness (sati). The term mindfulness means being able to > remember, to keep something in mind. In the case of establishing the > body as a frame of reference, it means being able to remember where > you're supposed to be -- with the body -- and you don't let yourself > forget. The second quality, alertness (sampajañña), means being > aware of what is actually going on in the present. Are you with the > body? Are you with the breath? Is the breath comfortable? Simply > notice what's actually happening in the present moment. We tend to > confuse mindfulness with alertness, but actually they are two > separate things: mindfulness means being able to remember where you > want to keep your awareness; alertness means being aware of what's > actually happening. The third quality, ardency (atappa), means two > things. One, if you realize that the mind has wandered off, you > bring it right back. Immediately. You don't let it wander around, > sniffing the flowers. Two, when the mind is with its proper frame of > reference, ardency means trying to be as sensitive as possible to > what's going on -- not just drifting in the present moment, but > really trying to penetrate more and more into the subtle details of > what's actually happening with the breath or the mind. > > > > I would say that the Buddha taught the guidelines of sati, > sampajañña and atappa in meditation practice, the ajaans provide > explanations about these guidelines, and it takes practice and > exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, > sampajañña and atappa. 34497 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Nori --- nori wrote: > Hi victor & jon, > ... > So what do you think Gotama the Buddha was experiencing in the > following excerpts considering the above ? > > Maha Parinibbana Suttanta D.ii.115, PTS > > 41. 'On one occasion, Ananda, I was dwelling at Rajagaha, on the hill > called the Vulture's Peak. Now there, Ananda, I spoke to thee and > said: "How pleasent a spot, Ananda, is Rajagaha; how pleasent is > Vulture's Peak." > > 47. 'And now today, Ananda, at the Chapala Shrine, I spoke to thee > and said:-"How delightful a spot, Ananda, is Vesali, how charming the > Udena Shrine, and the Gotamaka Shrine and the Shrine of the Seven > Mangoes..." > > Now gotama the arahant Buddha, has he not developed equanimity ? > > Should not a sewer or charnel ground be no more or less pleasent than > Vesali ? > > Why do you think in one case he teaches: "... Forms cognizable via > the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming,... these ... is called > sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an > ignoble pleasure." > > .. and at another moment he says: "How delightful a spot, Ananda, is > Vesali, how charming the Udena Shrine..." ? Just as an arahant experiences both pleasant and painful expereinces through the body-door, so he experiences both pleasant and unpleasant objects through the other doorways. In either case, however, no akusala arises on account of those experineces. As regards the quotes about a pleasant/delightful spot, this presumably refer eithers to the pleasantness of the sense-door experiences at those places or, more likely, their suitability as places for bhavana (the commentary would be the only reliable source of this information). However, I would be confident that the Buddha is not referring to or recommending attachment or any other form of akusala here. Jon 34498 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 10:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Howard, I had forgotten about the subjects of jivitindriya and femininity and masculinity. They were not foremost in my mind. I agree that it is tiresome to repeat things and have debates again. There is no problem with any of your posts at all. As Sarah said, you were the occasion for many good discussions. If they are found troublesome, well it is also helpful to consider things for oneself, or formulate better. There is nothing wrong here. Also, the mood one is in colours a post one receives. One may read something into it that was not intended by the writer. Amazing when one comes to think of it. When rereading later on it seems a different post, or one can laugh about it. Email is a difficult medium and sometimes I prefer my old fashioned way of writing by hand or on the type writer. I enjoyed my correspondance with so many people over the years, including Rob K! Nina. op 08-07-2004 02:15 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: to Jon: I've raised questions > about many specific matters, for example about jivitindriya and gender (I > forget > the Pali therm) as dhammas, and numerous other matters as well which I haven't > bothered keeping records of. I've brought up several specifics, mainly with > Nina over the years. But I'm not in the mood to engage in disputes. I value > the > Abhidhamma greatly, but have some reservations about it. 34499 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 10:44am Subject: Vis. XIV, 85 and Intro Vis. XIV, 85 and Intro Text Vis. 85. (3) But when young children have a natural habit due to seeing the behavior of relatives and are joyful on seeing bhikkhus and at once give them whatever they have in their hands or pay homage, then the third kind of consciousness arises. (4) But when they behave like this on being urged by their relatives, 'Give; pay homage', then the fourth kind of consciousness arises. (5)-(8) But when the consciousnesses are devoid of joy in these four instances through encountering no excellence in the gift to be given, or in the recipient, etc., or through want of any such cause for joy, the the remaining four, which are 'accompanied by equanimity', arise. So sense-sphere profitable [consciousness] should be understood as of eight kinds, being classed according to joy, equanimity, knowledge, and prompting. Intro to Tiika 85 There are eight types of kusala cittas of the sense-sphere in all. This section of the Visuddhimagga deals with the following six types of kusala cittas: 3) accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom, unprompted somanassa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-vippayutta.m, asa²nkhaarikam eka.m 4) accompanied by pleasant feeling, without wisdom, prompted somanassa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-vippayutta.m, sasa²nkhaarikam eka.m 5) accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wisdom, unprompted upekkhaa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-sampayutta.m, asa²nkhaarikam eka.m 6)accompanied by indifferent feeling, with wisdom, prompted upekkhaa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-sampayutta.m, sasa²nkhaarikam eka.m 7) accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, unprompted upekkhaa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-vippayutta.m, asa²nkhaarikam eka.m 8)accompanied by indifferent feeling, without wisdom, prompted upekkhaa-sahagata.m ñaa.na-vippayutta.m, sasa²nkhaarikam eka.m Kusala cittas of the sense-sphere are these eight types and it depends on different conditions which type arises at a particular moment. There is no person who can direct kusala citta to be such or such. Kusala kamma of the sense sphere is performed by any one of these eight types and it produces its result accordingly. Kamma has been classified in many ways, and in one classification regenerative kamma, janaka kamma, is mentioned. Janaka kamma produces result in the form of rebirth-consciousness and in the course of life. The Tiika refers to janaka kamma and deals with the results produced by kusala kamma of different degrees. Kusala kamma performed by kusala citta that is with wisdom, accompanied by pleasant feeling and unprompted does not necessarily produce rebirth-consciousness that is vipaakacitta with wisdom, accompanied by pleasant feeling and unprompted. The reason is that kusala kamma is of different degrees and they all produce their results accordingly. There is excellent kusala kamma and inferior kusala kamma. When kusala citta with wisdom performs kusala kamma, the wisdom or understanding can be of different degrees. There may be understanding that kusala brings its result accordingly, or understanding of the degree of insight that realizes kusala as non-self. Or kusala kamma may be performed without understanding, depending on conditions. The Visuddhimagga gives an example of young children in order to illustrate kusala citta without understanding, but this type arises also in the case of adults. It depends on many conditions what type of kusala citta arises at a particular moment. Different opinions of teachers are quoted by Buddhaghosa (Expositor (II, p. 358 and following). He quotes also from three Elders: He then goes on analysing the different opinions very carefully. Akusala cittas arising before or after the kusala citta that performs kamma are conditions for the kusala kamma to be inferior and that it thus produces a result that is inferior. We read in the ³Guide to Conditional Relations² by U Narada (p. 202, 203): When kusala kamma is performed there are many kusala cittas, arising at three periods of time: before, during and after the kusala kamma. After having performed kusala kamma one can recollect it with kusala cittas. We read further on: We read in the Commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Topics of Abhidhamma, p. 193, 194) that excellent kusala kamma with three roots produces rebirth with three roots and that inferior kusala kamma with three roots and excellent kusala kamma with two roots produces rebirth with two roots. Inferior kusala kamma with two roots produces rebirth that is ahetuka vipaakacitta. In that case a person is handicapped from the first moment of life. Here we see how each cause brings its appropriate result and how intricate the way of kamma is that produces result. It truly is only the field of the Buddhas. ****** Nina. 34500 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 10:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Vism.XIV 84, feelings Hi Larry, op 08-07-2004 01:28 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: I'm somewhat pacified now. N: I am glad. I have to rephrase what I said about not thinking of the location of impingement where a rupa appears. I should express this more carefully. It is natural to note this most of the time, but then we are just thinking, not being aware of a characteristic. It is not a matter of should not. And also thinking has conditions, it is a reality. A. Sujin said we should know the difference between sati and thinking about realities. When we know the difference sati can be developed. Thus, when we are thinking or noting the place of impingement we can be reminded that this is not awareness of a characteristic, that is all. I wanted to remind myself when I wrote this, it is so easy to take for awareness what is not. I was thinking about the late Ven. Dhammadharo who said that a little patch of his knee was touching the floor and that thinking of that spot is not awareness of hardness. (This is on Rob K's web, Being here Now, it is very good). Best not to worry about all those things. When the time is ripe, when one has listened, sati will arise and then there is no time for all that noting and thinking. Rob K gave some very good examples how unexpectantly sati arises in the middle of all sorts of activities. Heard: L:The main point I > wanted to emphasize is that feeling isn't rupa, even bodily feeling. If > we look carefully we can begin to see how very elusive and ephemeral > even strong feeling is. Where all this rupa comes from that is > associated with feeling I have no idea, but maybe it doesn't matter. It > could be that sense sphere consciousness is particularly intermingled > with rupa. N: This is completely right. L: (snipped): Also we could look at whether the prompting, > if there is any, is kusala or akusala and whether it is with > understanding or not or with misunderstanding or not. N: It is hard to know, mostly by inference. Nina. 34501 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 10:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] dialogue about kusala. Dear Jon, It is nice to hear from you so regularly. The music driving you crazy made me laugh. You and crazy??? op 07-07-2004 19:59 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > On this post, Kate wondered why we talk so much about kusala. She thinks > that taking enjoyment in the mountain views and the wild-flowers is > beneficial ('food for the soul', she calls it) and can't be bad, although > she can see that enjoying food, for example, is self-centred. N: Yes, I also need nature, it helps me to recover, good for the eyes after all the computer work. As Rob K recently explained to Philip: there is sama lobha and visama lobha. Sama lobha is the normal attachment we have all day, after seeing, hearing, enjoying nature. We do not harm anybody. It comes naturally, it is our accumulated nature. Sure, the Buddha did not forbid this. There is also visama lobha and this is the more harmful greed or desire. The Buddha advised to develop ways to gradually abandon this, since it can motivate evil deeds. J: After hearing about 'developed mind' she also commented that her own mind > was very untrained, and moved around all the time. Sarah assured her it > was the same for us too, but I'm not sure she was convinced! N: The more one listens and considers the more one sees how untrained one's mind is. The training is never enough. But it is encouraging to learn more and make new discoveries all the time, and learn about so many possibilities for kusala citta. I listen now to MP3 Pakinnaka 2, and this is about India. I hear you posing good questions in Thai. All the India tapes are on it. What about your listening? But difficult for you to write now with this crazy driving music. Sound and hearing, and do we think automatically of the ears? Nina. P.S. I got the Vis. soft cover and will have it made into three + the footnotes separately, since these are all at the back. It can last all my life! 34502 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 10:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: kamma and vipaka Hi Steve, nice to hear from you. op 08-07-2004 02:41 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@h...: Quote; >> And this was new: when akusala cittas arise before the kusala citta >> or after it >> (when you regret the giving afterwards) it conditions the kusala >> kamma to be less excellent and it renders a lesser vipaka, >> even rebirth with only two roots. > S: Would it be the case also that an akusala kammas vipaka can be > lessened if followed by kusala citta? N: In the case of kusala kamma performed by one of the eight maintypes the vipakacitta is not always like a mirror reflection. As explained, it depends on what precedes it and comes after it. It shows that many kusala cittas are involved when performing a deed. Eight types of sahetuka vipakacitta are possible and also eight ahetuka kusala vipakacittas (see my Intro). In the case of akusala kamma, when this produces rebirth, only one type of vipakacitta is possible, namely, ahetuka akusala vipakacitta. But it has many degrees, to be seen from the many unhappy planes of exsitence where it can arise. Kusala citta arising afterwards can bring its own result. But if janaka kamma is akusala kamma and the time is ripe it produces ahetuka akusala vipakacitta as rebirth-consciousness. We are unable to know much about all this. There are many kinds of kamma, supportive kamma, counteractive kamma, etc. There are factors that make it favorable for kusala kamma and akusala kamma to produce result, such as the time one is born (time of war or peace), or the place. S: What about the case of an akusala kamma committed previously and many > years later one was to reflect on that deed with kusala cittas, eg. > panna, hiriottapa, karuna were to arise concerning that previous > akusala kamma. Would that akusala kammas vipaka be lessened? N: I have not read of examples that are the opposite of the case of kusala kamma. But as I said, there are also other kammas, and other factors that operate. Not all akusala kammas produce rebirth, they also produce results during life. Nina. 34503 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 0:17pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi Jon and all, Reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Victor > > > I would say that the Buddha taught the guidelines of sati, > > sampajañña and atappa in meditation practice, the ajaans provide > > explanations about these guidelines, and it takes practice and > > exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, > > sampajañña and atappa. > > Again, I am reminded of a previous discussion of ours. If I recall > correctly, you took the view that the suttas are self-contained and, > except in the case of certain suttas whose meaning needs to be drawn out, > should be read as they stand, and on this basis you reject the need for > reference to the commentaries. What do commentaries have to say about sati, sampajañña and atappa? > > However, here you seem to be saying that as regards satipatthana the > suttas contain only the guidelines and need the explanation of (certain) > current-day ajaans in order to be properly understood. In fact, I said: "the Buddha taught the guidelines of sati, sampajañña and atappa in meditation practice, the ajaans provide explanations about these guidelines, and it takes practice and exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, sampajañña and atappa." Is there an > inconsistency between this comment and your earlier position? You are welcome to provide some reference to my earlier position, whatever that is, so you and I can be sure exactly what it is. > > In my view, the observations of the commentators dating from the time of > the Buddha are bound to be a much more reliable explanation of the > guidelines contained in the suttas. Ok. That is your view. In any event, one would have to ask > from what source the current-day ajaans derived the knowledge on which > their explantions are based (for example, the comment about `sending > mindfulness out to refer to its object -- such as the body -- and then > bringing it back inwards to refer to the heart', or the assertion that > sampajanna has to be firmly in place first; do these have any basis in the > suttas?). I provided Ajaan Lee and Ajaan Thanissaro's explanations as examples that different meditation teachers may have different explanations. I understand that you question Ajaan Lee's explanation. You might be interested to read the introduction in Frames of Reference by Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/frames.html > > There is so much material in the commentaries and other texts about sati, > sampajanna and atapi. In my experience, a consideration of this material > can be very rewarding. You are welcome to provide those commentaries for consideration, as I think the commentaries might be helpful to some. > > > and it takes practice and > > exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, > > sampajañña and atappa. > > Understanding at the experiential level (patipatti, 'practice') must be > preceded by correct understanding at the intellectual level (pariyatti). > I would not see it as a trial and error kind of thing, as 'exploration' > seems to imply. This is how I see it: Knowing how to ride a bicycle is a kind of experiential knowledge that is to be acquired through actually sitting on a bike trying. And trial and error is part of the process of learning and mastering the skill of riding a bicycle. Learning and progress involve trial and error; i.e., trying different approaches to see if it works, until one masters the skill. Another example is learning math. One reads the textbook and listens to the teacher, and that is part of learning process. However, a deep and thorough understanding/ mastery of the subject matter or a skill comes from actually doing it, i.e., by solving problems. That is one's experiential knowledge about math. > > Jon > Have a good time. Metta, Victor > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > Hi Lee and all, > ... > > Different meditation teachers may have different interpretation on > > sampajañña. For examples, in > > Frames of Reference > > by > > Ajaan Lee Dhammadharo > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/thai/lee/frames.html > > > > Ajaan Lee explains sati, sampajañña, and atappa as following: > > > > > > 1. Sati: mindfulness; powers of reference. 2. Sampajañña: alertness. > > This has to be firmly in place before sending mindfulness out to > > refer to its object -- such as the body -- and then bringing it back > > inwards to refer to the heart. 3. Atappa: focused investigation, > > analyzing the object into its various aspects. > > > > > > whereas in > > The Path of > > Concentration & Mindfulness > > by > > Thanissaro Bhikkhu > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/concmind.html > > > > Ajaan Thanissaro explains them as: > > > > As you do this, you develop three qualities of mind. One is > > mindfulness (sati). The term mindfulness means being able to > > remember, to keep something in mind. In the case of establishing the > > body as a frame of reference, it means being able to remember where > > you're supposed to be -- with the body -- and you don't let yourself > > forget. The second quality, alertness (sampajañña), means being > > aware of what is actually going on in the present. Are you with the > > body? Are you with the breath? Is the breath comfortable? Simply > > notice what's actually happening in the present moment. We tend to > > confuse mindfulness with alertness, but actually they are two > > separate things: mindfulness means being able to remember where you > > want to keep your awareness; alertness means being aware of what's > > actually happening. The third quality, ardency (atappa), means two > > things. One, if you realize that the mind has wandered off, you > > bring it right back. Immediately. You don't let it wander around, > > sniffing the flowers. Two, when the mind is with its proper frame of > > reference, ardency means trying to be as sensitive as possible to > > what's going on -- not just drifting in the present moment, but > > really trying to penetrate more and more into the subtle details of > > what's actually happening with the breath or the mind. > > > > > > > > I would say that the Buddha taught the guidelines of sati, > > sampajañña and atappa in meditation practice, the ajaans provide > > explanations about these guidelines, and it takes practice and > > exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, > > sampajañña and atappa. 34504 From: Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 8:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Dear Nina - In a message dated 7/8/04 1:45:23 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > > Hi Howard, > I had forgotten about the subjects of jivitindriya and femininity and > masculinity. They were not foremost in my mind. I agree that it is tiresome > to repeat things and have debates again. There is no problem with any of > your posts at all. > As Sarah said, you were the occasion for many good discussions. If they are > found troublesome, well it is also helpful to consider things for oneself, > or formulate better. There is nothing wrong here. > Also, the mood one is in colours a post one receives. One may read something > into it that was not intended by the writer. Amazing when one comes to think > of it. When rereading later on it seems a different post, or one can laugh > about it. > Email is a difficult medium and sometimes I prefer my old fashioned way of > writing by hand or on the type writer. I enjoyed my correspondance with so > many people over the years, including Rob K! > Nina. ========================= As usual, you are very sweet and very kind. Thank you for your so very pleasant words! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34505 From: nori Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 8:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi John & Victor, john wrote: 'As regards the quotes about a pleasant/delightful spot, this presumably refer eithers to the pleasantness of the sense-door experiences at those places... I would be confident that the Buddha is not referring to or recommending attachment or any other form of akusala here.' So what do you think ?: Is it not the case that if you found a place 'pleasant', that one is already at that point 'taking pleasure' or 'participating in carnal indulgence' in those sense door experiences, and likewise if that one found a place 'unpleasant' then is he not already at that moment reacting with aversion to that sense door experience ? Is it not akusala (unwholesome) already at the moment one has 'aversion' or 'liking', which results in 'pleasant' or 'unpleasant' feeling ? For if there were no 'aversion' or 'liking' to sense door experiences then nothing would be pleasant or 'unpleasant' there would only exist neutral feeling for those sense-door experiences. Does not 'pleasant' experience, already at that moment of feeling - 'this is pleasant' result in inevitable attachment, and craving resulting in suffering when it is not present ? with metta, nori 34506 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 10:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Nori and all, I shall reply in context. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi John & Victor, > > john wrote: > > 'As regards the quotes about a pleasant/delightful spot, this > presumably refer eithers to the pleasantness of the sense-door > experiences at those places... I would be confident that the Buddha > is not referring to or recommending attachment or any other form of > akusala here.' > > So what do you think ?: > > Is it not the case that if you found a place 'pleasant', that one is > already at that point 'taking pleasure' or 'participating in carnal > indulgence' in those sense door experiences, and likewise if that > one found a place 'unpleasant' then is he not already at that moment > reacting with aversion to that sense door experience ? Finding a place pleasant does not imply that one is already at that point 'taking pleasure', let alone 'participating in carnal indulgence.' Likewise finding a place unpleasant does not imply that one is already at that moment reacting with aversion to that sense door experience. > > Is it not akusala (unwholesome) already at the moment one > has 'aversion' or 'liking', which results in 'pleasant' > or 'unpleasant' feeling ? Experiencing pleasant feeling does not imply that there is lust & passion for pleasant feeling. Likewise experiencing painful feeling does not imply that there is aversion. > > For if there were no 'aversion' or 'liking' to sense door > experiences then nothing would be pleasant or 'unpleasant' there > would only exist neutral feeling for those sense-door experiences. Let me copy the following passage again: Samyutta Nikaya I.38 Sakalika Sutta The Stone Sliver Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. For free distribution only. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-038.html I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Rajagaha at the Maddakucchi Deer Reserve. Now at that time his foot had been pierced by a stone sliver. Excruciating were the bodily feelings that developed within him -- painful, fierce, sharp, wracking, repellent, disagreeable -- but he endured them mindful, alert, & unperturbed. Having had his outer robe folded in four and laid out, he lay down on his right side in the lion's posture, with one foot placed on top of the other, mindful & alert. Painful feeling does not imply aversion. > > Does not 'pleasant' experience, already at that moment of feeling - > 'this is pleasant' result in inevitable attachment, and craving > resulting in suffering when it is not present ? Experiencing pleasant feeling does not imply that one is attached to it. But on the other hand, it is entirely possible that there is lust & passion for pleasant feeling. Let me quote the following from Anguttara Nikaya VI.63 Nibbedhika Sutta Penetrative http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an06-063.html "There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. But these are not sensuality. They are called strings of sensuality in the discipline of the noble ones. The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality, not the beautiful sensual pleasures found in the world. The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality. The beauties remain as they are in the world, while the wise, in this regard, subdue their desire. "And what is the diversity in feeling? There is the feeling of pleasure connected with the baits of the world. There is the feeling of pleasure not connected with the baits of the world. There is the feeling of pain connected with the baits of the world. There is the feeling of pain not connected with the baits of the world. There is the feeling of neither pleasure nor pain connected with the baits of the world. There is the feeling of neither pleasure nor pain not connected with the baits of the world. This is called the diversity in feeling. [See The Wings to Awakening, passage §179.] What are the baits? Five strings of sensuality. I think you might also be interested to check passage §179 at http://tinyurl.com/2ujxc > > > with metta, > nori Metta, Victor 34507 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 11:17pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hello Jon, Sorry for the delay in responding, I am in the practice of limiting my vices and the internet for me is a considerable addiction. ****************************************************** Jon:> I must confess this is the first time I have come across such a statement. > My question to you would be, within the suttas themselves there âre many > references to dhammas, conditioned dhammas, the five aggregates, the > elements, and the sense bases. What do you see as the significance of > these references? ****************************************************** B: The significance of these references as a teaching tool is not what is in question. Faith in the Buddha as a teacher and master of skillful (kusala) means, leaves no doubt as to the necessity and centrality of these terms and concepts. And thats just what this discussion is about. Concepts. Calling them such does not marginalize their importance in studying the way. Language (loka-samanna = generality of the world, loka-vohara = usage of the world, loka-sammuti = convention of the world), like all other things is constantly in flux. Words, the building blocks of language, do not represent any unchanging entities, but rather are conventional symbols people adopt according to circumstance. Words have no inherent meaning. Or perhaps it would be better to say that the meaning of a word is inconstant. What one refers to when one says "tree," refers to something different every time. Thus my contention with any attempt to set up any word, concept, or definition as an "ultimate reality." The very reality those words refer to is in constant flux. Their usage by the Buddha was according to the accumulations, dispositions and circumstances of the audiences he was addressing. When the teachings of the Buddha were finally put to parchment, the Abhidhammikas, in an attempt to preserve and understand those teachings, attempted to extrapolate and codify the context and application of what THEY THOUGHT were essential concepts and key terms. I emphasize what 'they thought' because of the discrepancies in the lists of the two predominant schools of Buddhism at the time: the Sarvastivadins and the Theravadins. The result is the system of classification (vibhanga) whereby each element is related to another in the different classifications. Lets illustrate this process by looking at the conception of feeling (vedana) extracted from Nyanatiloka Mahathera's "Guide Through the Abhidhamma-Pitaka": "What here is the aggregate of feeling? The aggregate of feeling is of: 1. A single nature: in being associated with sense impression (phassa-sampayutta); 2. Twofold: accompanied by root (sahetuko), unaccompanied by root (ahetuka); 3. Threefold: wholesome, unwholesome, neutral; 4. Fourfold: kamavacara (belonging to the world of sense pleasures), rupavacara (belonging to materiality), arupavacara (belonging to the immaterial), lokuttara (belonging to the supernormal world); 5. Fivefold: bodily ease, bodily pain, gladness, sadness, indifference; 6. Sixfold: born of eye-impression, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, and mind-impression; 7. Sevenfold: born of eye-impression, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-, of the impression of the mind-element (mano-dhatu), of the impression of the mind-consciousness-element (mano-vinnana-dhatu); 8. Eightfold: born of the eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-impression, born of body-impression, either pleasant or painful, born of the impression of the mind-element, of the mind-consciousness-element; 9. Ninefold: born of eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-impression, of the impression of the mind-element, of the mind-consciousness-element, which is wholesome, unwholesome, or neutral; 10. Tenfold: born of eye-, ear-, nose-, tongue-, body-impression, either pleasant or painful, born of the impression of the mind-element, of the mind-consciousness-element, which is wholesome, unwholesome, or neutral." (from "Guide" pp. 25-26) B: Clearly the attempt here is to account for every possible shade of meaning that the conception of feeling represents. This is accomplished by placing that conception in every possible category, even if it results in some repetition. The Abhidhammikas understood the emptiness of words and symbols. That is why they went to such great lengths to demarcate as precisely as possible, what a particular concept is (and is not) according to how the Buddha used them in the discourses. However, to avoid any sort of absolutism (as well as one big pile of unrelated elements), the two Abhidhamma traditions developed the theory of relations (paccaya). And while the actual number of relations differ for the two traditions, the paccaya served the same purpose the Buddha's teachings on 'dependent arising' (paticcasamuppada) did for the earlier Buddhists. It provided a description of the subordination, synthesis, and coordination of the various events/elements thus described in the other books of the Abhidhamma. I apologize for this long winded response. To answer your question, the significance I see in these references, whether in the suttas or the abhidhamma, lies in their use by the human facilities of conception, analysis, and language -- the very factors that keep us bound to samsara -- to build a boat that will carry us to the shore of the unconditioned. The suttas build a boat out of our ordinary ideas of the world, humans, animals, devas, suffering, stress, hatred, greed, and meditation. The boat is made of wholesome views, skillfull practices, and moral behavior. The abhidhamma builds its boat by removing these concepts from their context, stripping them of any personal or absolute status and then describing how these seemingly unrelated elements/events interact, condition, and depend on one another in the creation of experience. Neither boat can be called 'ultimate,' for to do so would be to bore a hole right through the bottom of the boat whereby it sinks into the bottomless ocean of suffering. *************************************************** Jon:> Do you disagree with the view that these are the > objects of insight the developoment of which leads eventually to > enlightenment? *************************************************** B: I'm not sure what you mean by 'objects of insight,' but I would certainly disagree with the view that the buddha set up some sort of over-arching psychology, with a reductionist form of absolutism as its basis. Take away the absolutism...stop comparing the Dhamma to psychology...and drop the metaphysical assertions, and then we're in business. To summarize, clinging to any concept as absolute, ultimate, or unchanging is one of the very types of wrong view the abhidhammikas were seeking to uproot. I'll end by saying that none of the above, nor any of the suttas, commentaries or books are capable of ending suffering. Now you tell me, what is? **************************************************** > Looking forward to more of your stimulating posts. > Jon **************************************************** B: Stimulants can be addictive. ;-) May we all soon reach the other shore. May you be present, happy, and well. Bhinnatta --- Outgoing mail is certified Virus Free. Checked by AVG anti-virus system (http://www.grisoft.com). Version: 6.0.708 / Virus Database: 464 - Release Date: 6/19/2004 34508 From: nori Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 1:26am Subject: Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi victor & jon, This is great. I can't thank you enough for clearing this up for me, and skillfully finding a sutta to make the point exactly. So what do you think ? : If Gotama the Buddha with his retinue of arahants were residing at some location and later there blew in this really horrible stench that would not go away, and he had no reason to remain, then would he say: 'Come samanas, let us go, this place is no longer a pleasant abiding.' or would he remain and tolerate the stench ? metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Nori and all, > > I shall reply in context. > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" > wrote: > > Hi John & Victor, > > > > john wrote: > > > > 'As regards the quotes about a pleasant/delightful spot, this > > presumably refer eithers to the pleasantness of the sense-door > > experiences at those places... I would be confident that the > Buddha > > is not referring to or recommending attachment or any other form > of > > akusala here.' > > > > So what do you think ?: > > > > Is it not the case that if you found a place 'pleasant', that one > is > > already at that point 'taking pleasure' or 'participating in > carnal > > indulgence' in those sense door experiences, and likewise if that > > one found a place 'unpleasant' then is he not already at that > moment > > reacting with aversion to that sense door experience ? > > > Finding a place pleasant does not imply that one is already at that > point 'taking pleasure', let alone 'participating in carnal > indulgence.' > > Likewise finding a place unpleasant does not imply that one is > already at that moment reacting with aversion to that sense door > experience. > > > > > > Is it not akusala (unwholesome) already at the moment one > > has 'aversion' or 'liking', which results in 'pleasant' > > or 'unpleasant' feeling ? > > > Experiencing pleasant feeling does not imply that there is lust & > passion for pleasant feeling. > > Likewise experiencing painful feeling does not imply that there is > aversion. > > > > > > For if there were no 'aversion' or 'liking' to sense door > > experiences then nothing would be pleasant or 'unpleasant' there > > would only exist neutral feeling for those sense-door experiences. > > > > Let me copy the following passage again: > > Samyutta Nikaya I.38 > Sakalika Sutta > The Stone Sliver > Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. > For free distribution only. > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn01-038.html > > > I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near > Rajagaha at the Maddakucchi Deer Reserve. Now at that time his foot > had been pierced by a stone sliver. Excruciating were the bodily > feelings that developed within him -- painful, fierce, sharp, > wracking, repellent, disagreeable -- but he endured them mindful, > alert, & unperturbed. Having had his outer robe folded in four and > laid out, he lay down on his right side in the lion's posture, with > one foot placed on top of the other, mindful & alert. > > > > Painful feeling does not imply aversion. > > > > > > Does not 'pleasant' experience, already at that moment of feeling - > > 'this is pleasant' result in inevitable attachment, and craving > > resulting in suffering when it is not present ? > > > Experiencing pleasant feeling does not imply that one is attached to > it. But on the other hand, it is entirely possible that there is > lust & passion for pleasant feeling. > > Let me quote the following from > > Anguttara Nikaya VI.63 > Nibbedhika Sutta > Penetrative > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an06-063.html > > > "There are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms > cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, > fostering desire, enticing; sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas > cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... > tactile sensations cognizable via the body -- agreeable, pleasing, > charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. But these are not > sensuality. They are called strings of sensuality in the discipline > of the noble ones. > > The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality, > not the beautiful sensual pleasures > found in the world. > The passion for his resolves is a man's sensuality. > The beauties remain as they are in the world, > while the wise, in this regard, > subdue their desire. > > > > "And what is the diversity in feeling? There is the feeling of > pleasure connected with the baits of the world. There is the feeling > of pleasure not connected with the baits of the world. There is the > feeling of pain connected with the baits of the world. There is the > feeling of pain not connected with the baits of the world. There is > the feeling of neither pleasure nor pain connected with the baits of > the world. There is the feeling of neither pleasure nor pain not > connected with the baits of the world. This is called the diversity > in feeling. [See The Wings to Awakening, passage §179.] > > > What are the baits? > > Five strings of sensuality. > > I think you might also be interested to check passage §179 at > > http://tinyurl.com/2ujxc > > > > > > > with metta, > > nori > > Metta, > Victor 34509 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 3:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Howard, I wrote: ------------- > > My experience has been the exact opposite: it is purely because nama > > and rupa are absolutely real that their characteristic, anatta, has > > any meaning whatsoever. Similarly, the laws of conditionality, > > paticcasamuppada, have no meaning if there are no realities to > > condition and be conditioned. > > ------------- to which you replied: ------------- > I wish you could specify what you mean by "absolutely real" and by > "realities," ------------- I think something is a reality (is absolutely real) if it has its own inherent nature (characteristics). So a paramattha dhamma is inherently wholesome or unwholesome, desirable or undesirable and so on. The opinion of an observer has no influence on these characteristics. As to whether there exist such things as ultimate realities, I think the onus of proof is on those who say there isn't rather than those who say there is. It is self-evident that there has to be something, somewhere that is real. Otherwise, how could illusions be created? It is not only the Dhamma that insists on there being an ultimate reality: the laws of conventional science rely on the existence of matter. They are the properties of real, momentarily existent, sub- atomic particles. ---------------------------- H: > because on the face of it, an absolute reality and anatta don't go together so very well! > --------------------------- Anatta shouldn't be confused with nothingness. As a characteristic of paramattha dhammas, it is inseparable from them. It forms part of their sabhava (substance, inherent nature). It characterises them as being without an abiding self, soul or entity. Ken H 34510 From: Leonardo Neves Date: Thu Jul 8, 2004 5:08pm Subject: RES: [dsg] From Palm Leaves to Palm Top, The Human Adventure is Just Beginning Dear Ícaro, Try this for your palm ... "Pali Canon Anywhere" http://www.mindspring.com/~darrengoh/canon/ Metta, Leonardo Neves -----Mensagem original----- De: icarofranca [mailto:icarofranca@y...] Enviada em: quarta-feira, 7 de julho de 2004 14:18 Para: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Assunto: [dsg] From Palm Leaves to Palm Top, The Human Adventure is Just Beginning Hello, Noble Company of Dhamma Fellows! Some time ago I've bought a Palm Top - a personal portable Computer, also named handheld. After the basics on transfering files to main Computer, converting .doc and .pdf files and so on, I eagerly begun to gather up all files about theravada buddhism around the net, compact and transfer them to my gadget with all skills of the art. And now I can carry with me all suttas,vinayas, abhidhamma treatises, Tiikas and Theravada books as the Patiika and the Ledi Sayadaw's manuals, easily, without effort or cumbersome delay. I am sitting inside the bus, for example,and at the half and a quarter of hour nama and rupa rises and falls on my sensedoors while I read the Mahavagga, the Patiika, the Uposatha Sila and build up my culture with the best of the teachings: the own Buddhadhamma. I think about the first palm leaves' texts and about the very effort to preserve them from climate, fungus, insects and so on: it were a great adventure for itself, worth and sublime by its own ways! I do preserve also the wholeness of my palm Top, keeping it clean and functional at all means and I do feel I am really inside the stream of the true Dhamma!!! The advantages of having gadgets, at american way!!! The only buddhistic texts I haven't yet put inside my palm Top are the Nina van Gorkon's works, with all their exquisite, unique and dutch way to preaching Dhamma: I am afraid to burn up the circuits of the poor machine!!!! From palm leaves to palm Top: The Human Adventure is Just beginning... take the first star right at the horizon and go ahead, helmsman!!!! Mettaya, Ícaro 34511 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 6:56am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > ============================ > Thank you for writing back. Your suspicion as to how your post > might > have been received by me is right on target as the tone of my reply > surely > makes clear. I apologize for expressing anger, and I do much appreciate > this > friendly follow-up post of yours. > > With metta, > Howard There is no need to apologise. Re-reading the earlier messages in this thread I see your comments in a different light. Perhaps I stepped in too hastily -- an easy thing to do when trying to keep up with things on the run so to speak. Talking of which, we have just had an amazing day's outing to the permanent snowfields and glacier country above Zermatt. Once we climbed (by chair lift) through a blanket of low lying cloud we found ourselves in perfect sunshine and fresh, crisp snow, with views of the alps all around. Quite spectacular. I'll get back to you on our other thread as soon as I can. Tomorrow we move to Meiringen, where we'll be staying until the end of our visit. I'll write again from there. Jon 34512 From: Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 2:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Nori (and Victor, and John) - In a message dated 7/9/04 12:24:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: > Hi John &Victor, > > john wrote: > > 'As regards the quotes about a pleasant/delightful spot, this > presumably refer eithers to the pleasantness of the sense-door > experiences at those places... I would be confident that the Buddha > is not referring to or recommending attachment or any other form of > akusala here.' > > So what do you think ?: > > Is it not the case that if you found a place 'pleasant', that one is > already at that point 'taking pleasure' or 'participating in carnal > indulgence' in those sense door experiences, and likewise if that > one found a place 'unpleasant' then is he not already at that moment > reacting with aversion to that sense door experience ? > > Is it not akusala (unwholesome) already at the moment one > has 'aversion' or 'liking', which results in 'pleasant' > or 'unpleasant' feeling ? > > For if there were no 'aversion' or 'liking' to sense door > experiences then nothing would be pleasant or 'unpleasant' there > would only exist neutral feeling for those sense-door experiences. > > Does not 'pleasant' experience, already at that moment of feeling - > 'this is pleasant' result in inevitable attachment, and craving > resulting in suffering when it is not present ? > > > with metta, > =========================== Nori, I think Victor's reply was excellent. Feeling, whether pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral is "just that". It is just a matter of fact. The thing is that with folks such as us, the tanhic reaction to pleasant/unpleasant feelings follows so immediately (and dependably! ;-) that we typically cannot distinguish between "pleasant" and "I want it" or between "unpleasant" and "I want to be rid of it". This is the way we are! But an ariyan, and all the more so the higher of an ariyan s/he is, is less vulnerable to this confusion, with an arahant being fully free of tanhic reaction. But an arahant still experiences feelings. Moreover, it makes perfect sense for a Buddha to note that a particular locale is pleasant (i.e., induces pleasant feelings), for pleasant feelings, if not overly grasped at by a learner, can be helpful for his/her progress in meditation, especially for the cultivation of calm and of the jhanas. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34513 From: Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 3:23am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/9/04 7:03:14 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > I wrote: > ------------- > >>My experience has been the exact opposite: it is purely because > nama > >>and rupa are absolutely real that their characteristic, anatta, > has > >>any meaning whatsoever. Similarly, the laws of conditionality, > >>paticcasamuppada, have no meaning if there are no realities to > >>condition and be conditioned. > >> > ------------- > > to which you replied: > ------------- > > I wish you could specify what you mean by "absolutely real" > and by > >"realities," > ------------- > > I think something is a reality (is absolutely real) if it has its > own inherent nature (characteristics). So a paramattha dhamma is > inherently wholesome or unwholesome, desirable or undesirable and so > on. The opinion of an observer has no influence on these > characteristics. > --------------------------------------------- Howard: Ahh, okay. I follow you. I'm not bothered by the idea of a dhamma having specific characteristics. However, I think that referring to them as "inherent nature" and especially as "OWN inherent nature" is misleading because it is already a problem to even speak of a dhamma as having its own being, inasmuch as the "being" of any phenomenon is completely dependent on other, similarly dependent, conditions. The fleeting existence of dhammas is, itself, fully dependent, and not "inherent". Also, isn't the word 'reality' goods enough? Does one have to imply the even greater sense of substantial own-being in using the expression "ABSOLUTELY real"? [I think it is very important to choose language that suggests the emptiness/corelessness aspect of dhammas, inasmuch as language use affects thought.] ---------------------------------------------------------- > > As to whether there exist such things as ultimate realities, I think > the onus of proof is on those who say there isn't rather than those > who say there is. It is self-evident that there has to be > something, somewhere that is real. Otherwise, how could illusions be > created? ---------------------------------------------------- Howard: Well, I don't want to make a fuss over this issue, but the norm is that the burden of proof lies on the one who makes a positive existential claim. ----------------------------------------------------- > > It is not only the Dhamma that insists on there being an ultimate > reality: the laws of conventional science rely on the existence of > matter. They are the properties of real, momentarily existent, sub- > atomic particles. > ----------------------------------------------------- Howard: Except that what exists for the physicists, and what is its nature, keeps on changing! I've been tempted to ask my colleagues in the Physics Department whether thay are charter members of The Theory of the Month Club! ;-)) ------------------------------------------------------ > > ---------------------------- > H: >because on the face of it, an absolute reality and anatta don't > go together so very well! > > --------------------------- > > Anatta shouldn't be confused with nothingness. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: That's correct. And I do not. ------------------------------------------------ As a characteristic > > of paramattha dhammas, it is inseparable from them. It forms part > of their sabhava (substance, inherent nature). It characterises > them as being without an abiding self, soul or entity. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: And please do note, Ken, that the word 'entity' means "existent". ------------------------------------------------ > > Ken H > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34514 From: Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 3:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/9/04 10:14:41 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > ... > >============================ > > Thank you for writing back. Your suspicion as to how your post > >might > >have been received by me is right on target as the tone of my reply > >surely > >makes clear. I apologize for expressing anger, and I do much appreciate > >this > >friendly follow-up post of yours. > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > There is no need to apologise. Re-reading the earlier messages in this > thread I see your comments in a different light. Perhaps I stepped in too > hastily -- an easy thing to do when trying to keep up with things on the > run so to speak. > > Talking of which, we have just had an amazing day's outing to the > permanent snowfields and glacier country above Zermatt. Once we climbed > (by chair lift) through a blanket of low lying cloud we found ourselves in > perfect sunshine and fresh, crisp snow, with views of the alps all around. > Quite spectacular. --------------------------------------------------- Howard: Oh, my! I am experiencing the rapidly alternating cetasikas of muditaa and envy!! ;-)) Your description is great, and your experience sounds *magnificent*!! I'm very happy for your having this lovely time. --------------------------------------------------- > > I'll get back to you on our other thread as soon as I can. Tomorrow we > move to Meiringen, where we'll be staying until the end of our visit. I'll > write again from there. > > Jon > =========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34515 From: Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain In a message dated 7/9/04 7:00:25 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: Nori, I think Victor's reply was excellent. Feeling, whether pleasant, unpleasant, or neutral is "just that". It is just a matter of fact. The thing is that with folks such as us, the tanhic reaction to pleasant/unpleasant feelings follows so immediately (and dependably! ;-) that we typically cannot distinguish between "pleasant" and "I want it" or between "unpleasant" and "I want to be rid of it". === Howard, I agree with your comments. Where it gets interesting is when you substitute sex's pleasure in place of the pleasure expressed in the suttas. Many Buddhists have a problem with sex's pleasure being "just that." jack 34516 From: Dhammaasoka Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 7:56am Subject: Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi Victor and all, > 1. The samatha and vipassana cannot be single out. Both should go hand in hand. V: I am not quite sure exactly what it means by the statement above. What do you think it means? === I mixed up the samatha with the jhana. The Reverend said the jhana is cultivated at the same time together with the vipassana. They cannot be separated. === > 3. He mentioned that we should discern body, feeling, mind and dhamma (the four subject of satipatthana) through feeling. His discription was, by watching the changes of the breath, we will be able to know the states of mind and dhamma as well as the body. V: Does it work for you? If not, how do you go about doing it? === I think we sense the touching the body to aware of the body. Buddha mentioned feelings consist of sukha, dukkha and neither sukha nor dukkha. As I still do not have any experience in noticing the cittas and dhamma (cetasikas), so I still cannot answer whether what the Reverend taught works for me or not. But it doesn't sound like what I understand from the suttas. ==== > 4. He mentioned that we can't "see" our past lives according to sutta. V: What do you think about that? === According to a few suttas, Buddha did say that we can discern clearly our past lives. === > Buddha teaches us to live now and then. The 11 ways of discerning is merely for us to understand the aspect of dhamma. (This one I found > conflicting with the teachings of Pa Auk Sayadaw, so I am not sure) V: What are the teachings of Pa Auk Sayadaw? === Pa Auk Sayadaw teaches the students to discern the eleven aspects of the nama and rupa. From my approach with some of his students, they do discern their past lives through the guidance of Pa Auk Sayadaw in order to discern and understand the 12 dependent origination. === > 5. The Reverend mentioned discerning internally, externally, internally and externally in the Maha Satipatthana sutta as discerning the six door as internally and the six respective object as externally and their relationship. He quoted one of the sutta that sound something like "what is the internal world--the six door; what is the external world--the six respective object" V: What do you think it should be? === I believe you have read my reply to Nina. J === > 6. He mentioned that the one-pointedness only exists from 2nd Jhana > and onwards. 1st Jhana only have the four factors. (I have tried to > search for suttas that have clear mention of the five factors and I > have mentioned this to Rob.M as well. Rob.M found 1 sutta from Mn19 > and I found 1 sutta from DN111) V: Actually it is MN43. DN consists of thirty-four suttas. Which sutta did you find from DN? ==== Sorry, misquoted the sutta, it should be MN111(?) The sutta is regarding the Buddha praising Rev Sariputta for his attainment of the nine Jhanas according to the sequence from mundane to supramundane. I am not sure of the numbering of the sutta as I actually refer to the Chinese translation version of the Nikayas. === With gratitude, Lee 34517 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:07am Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Hi everyone, I'm continuing this thread under the same subject even though there are several different discussions goin on within this thread as well as discussions related to this one in other threads. *************************************************** Ken:> I think something is a reality (is absolutely real) if it has its > own inherent nature (characteristics). So a paramattha dhamma is > inherently wholesome or unwholesome, desirable or undesirable and so > on. The opinion of an observer has no influence on these > characteristics. > As to whether there exist such things as ultimate realities, I think > the onus of proof is on those who say there isn't rather than those > who say there is. It is self-evident that there has to be > something, somewhere that is real. Otherwise, how could illusions be > created? **************************************************** B: Why is it self evident? Basing the existence of reality on the 'existence' of illusion is not exactly an air tight claim. I agree with Howard in saying the burden of proof lies in the one who makes a positive existential claim, however, by agreeing with Howard, I am in no way negating the existence of reality. Rather, it is our vain attempts at trying to grasp, comprehend, understand, disassemble, systematize, classify, and talk about reality that takes us further and further away from it. For when we do these things, there is an underlying assumption, built into the very structure of the language we use to think and communicate, that words and the entities/events they refer to, are permanent and unchanging structures with their own innate characteristics independent of any outside force or influence. The Buddha taught that this simply is not true. And yes, I feel some of the commentators to the Abhidhamma misunderstood this crucial point due to their clinging to wrong views. The Buddha taught that all things are characterized by anicca -- everything....EVERYthing is in constant flux and change; dukkha -- the inconstancy of all things real or imagined is stressfull and unsatisfactory; and anatta -- because of their inconstancy and stressfullness, none of these things can belong to an independent and enduring self; none of these things have their own inherent nature, independent of causes and conditions. These teachings arose from Buddha's insight into experience, not metaphysical speculation. The abhidhamma arose from insight into those teachings, not metaphysical speculation. They are different approaches, but both of them are consistent in their avoidance of the extremes of absolutism and materialism. ****************************************************** Ken:> It is not only the Dhamma that insists on there being an ultimate > reality: the laws of conventional science rely on the existence of > matter. They are the properties of real, momentarily existent, sub- > atomic particles. ******************************************************* B: An atom fifty years ago is hardly the atom of today. But regardless, if reality is self-evident, why is there science or religion? For us, and only us. For our own understanding and feeling of security. If indeed there is no self and it is self-evident that there is no self, then who needs the Abhidhamma to tell him so? Who needs to understand truth? I do. You do. We all do. The Buddha cautioned against the establishment of a metaphysical self, both personally and philosophically. He did not - and this is where some commentators IMHO get lost - deny the existence of an empirical self. The same holds true for all phenomena. Thus one can claim all day and night that "there is a rupa, there's a citta, hey! there's a vedana," but this is in no way different than someone else claiming "there goes a car, there's a tree, look at that sky!" I must stress for everyone reading these words, the expansion of what one considers Buddhism. Many of the discussions and arguments being discussed and argued have already been discussed and argued for the last 2500 years by men and women no different from you and I. An understanding of these discussions, where they lead and why they lead there, can do much to assuage the clinging to wrong views the Buddha warned against. Form is emptiness, emptiness is form. May you all be at peace. Bhinnatta 34518 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:24am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:sampajano Hi Victor, I am always so impressed by the texts with atapii, sampajana, satima. I agree with you and Jon that these texts should not stay in the book, but should be applied and only thus can we understand their deep meaning. I like to look up some contexts, simply because I am so interested. Looking at PED under atapii: many sutta references. A sutta cross reference may also be very interesting. A very good idea of yours to mention these three words. I just start with sampajano. op 08-07-2004 21:17 schreef yu_zhonghao op yu_zhonghao@y...: > > You are welcome to provide those commentaries for consideration, as > I think the commentaries might be helpful to some. N: Victor, you remember that Suan gave a long list of Pali about sampajañña from the Book of Analysis (second book of the abhidhamma) and asked Sarah for the English? Well, I kept it at hand, I like it so much. In the Book of Analysis sampajañña is translated as awareness, and Sarah discussed this word with Suan. It is not so satisfactory.It is actually pañña cetasika. Here in the text it is taken together with sati: Suan: > Today I was reading Anguttara and Majjhima commentaries on > Aaka~nkheya Suttam (in both Nikaayas) where the term "vipassanaaya" > occurs. Aacariya Buddhaghosa defines Vipassanaa as Anupassanaa and > mentions 7 Anupassanaas. .... Sarah: If you have time to elaborate, I'd be interested. .... Suan: > The Bhaddekaratta Suttam highlights the urgency of the present > moment, so here the Buddha no longer cares about Samatha Jhaanas. > Without furhter ado, he simply asks us "to wisely observe the present > phenomenon wherever it arises (paccuppanna~nca yo dhammam, tattha > tatha vipassati)." . End quote post . N: Vipassanaa as Anupassanaa: anu means: closely following or: again. passanaa: seeing. A long time ago Larry and others had questions about this word. Understanding has to follow closely (anu) each dhamma that appears and scrutinize, investigate it, again and again (anu) while sati is mindful of it. Actually the three of atapii, sampajana, satima should be treated together, and I shall quote more later on from Soma (p. 54). I just go into sampajañña today. Victor, you remember that Larry posted Ven. Soma's Co on the Satipatthanasutta? We had such a good time before with Jim, ekaayano magga, the one and only Path. Here is more (p. 54): Sampajaano= clearly comprehending. Endowed with knowledge called circumspection [sampajañña]. Clearly comprehending= discerning rightly, entirely and equally [sammaa samantato samañca pajaanato]. Rightly= correctly (avipariitam]. Entirely= By knowing in all ways [sabbaakaarapa jaananena]. Equally= By reason of proceeding through the conveying of higher and higher spiritual attainments [uparuupari visesaavaaha-bhaavena pavattiyaa]. N: I think this refers to the development of pañña that evermore investigates the dhamma that appears, correctly, entirely, in all aspects, in all ways. It reaches higher and higher degrees. But first it has to begin, and then it is still weak and coarse. Later on it knows the dhamma that appears as conditioned, its impermanence, the three characteristics. Also: understanding leads to more and more detachment from conditioned dhammas. This must be the meaning of discerning rightly, entirely and equally. **** Book of Analysis, § 525 (p. 326). I cannot type the whole text. I think Sarah did this before. Wisdom is compared to a goad, a tower, light, lustre, splendour, jewel... *** This for today. We have to practise now the Brahmaviharas with my father, playing the stars from the sky by our music for him. I have to remind myself to wisely observe the present phenomenon here and there (tattha tattha), even though pañña is still weak and coarse. But there can be a beginning of . Absence of dullness, I like this reminder. Nina. 34519 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:24am Subject: what I heard Dear Jon, I listened to MP 3. A. Sujin asked you in India: do you have possessions (sombat), and you were somewhat surprised. She then explained; when in deep sleep you have no possessions, you do not even have a name. No object is appearing through the senses, we do not know anything, not even our name. Also when seeing now you only experience colour and own not any possessions, you do not think of them. Seeing arises only for a moment then it falls away. We cling the whole day but we do not own anything. She also often says that we have to be brave and happy when developing pañña (athaan rarung). This is actually atapii: ardent. We have to be brave to continue developing pañña. Kom asked: we know that we have lobha and dosa, but is it not so that their characteristics can only be known after the first stage of insight? A. Sujin: We know that we have them, but when lobha arises it is still ours. It is nama but this does not mean that is has no characteristic. Lobha and dosa have their own characteristics, and we know when we have them, but we do not know them as nama dhammas. We know lobha is thus, dosa is thus, but they are still ours. They are elements, dhatus, and this can only be realized through insight knowledge. Thus first nama has to be known as nama and rupa as rupa. I am reminded here that nama has to be seen as nama, but that they are not neutral, that they are all different ones with different characteristics. Nina. 34520 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:24am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 85, Pali Tiika Vis. XIV, 85, Pali Vis. 85. Pali: yadaa pana ~naatijanassa pa.tipattidassanena jaataparicayaa baaladaarakaa bhikkhuu disvaa somanassajaataa sahasaa ki~ncideva hatthagata.m dadanti vaa vandanti vaa, tadaa tatiya.m citta.m uppajjati. yadaa pana ``detha vandathaati'' ~naatiihi ussaahitaa eva.m pa.tipajjanti, tadaa catuttha.m citta.m uppajjati. yadaa pana deyyadhammapa.tiggaahakaadiina.m asampatti.m a~n~nesa.m vaa somanassahetuuna.m abhaava.m aagamma catuusupi vikappesu somanassarahitaa honti, tadaa sesaani cattaari upekkhaasahagataani uppajjantiiti. eva.m somanassupekkhaa~naa.nasa"nkhaarabhedato a.t.thavidha.m kaamaavacarakusala.m veditabba.m. Tiika: ³Atthi dinnan²ti-aadi (ma. ni. 1.441; 2.95) nayappavattaaya sammaadi.t.thiyaa asambhavadassanattha.m baala-ggaha.na.m. The apprehension of ignorant children is stated in order to explain the non-origination of right view occurring in the way of ³There is giving² etc. Sa.msiidanussaahanaabhaavadassanattha.m sahasaa-gaha.na.m. There is apprehension at once in order to explain the absence of hesitation and urging. Somanassarahitaa honti pu~n~na.m karontaati adhippaayo. The cittas are devoid of pleasant feeling and this refers to the doing of meritorious deeds. Somanassahetuuna.m abhaava.m aagammaati ida.m nidassanamatta.m da.t.thabba.m. As to the expression, due to the absence of causes for joy, this should be seen merely as an example. Majjhattaaramma.natathaaruupacetosa"nkhaaraadayopi hi upekkhaasahagatataaya kaara.na.m hontiyevaati. A mediocre object that conditions the mind in that way etc. is the cause for the kusala citta to be accompanied by indifferent feeling. Evanti-aadi nigamana.m... As to the word thus, and so on, this is the conclusion... Tattha ~naa.nasampayuttaani cattaari yadaa tihetukapa.tisandhi.m uppaadenti, In this case, when the four types of kusala citta that are accompanied by wisdom produce rebirth with three roots, tadaa so.lasa vipaakacittaani phalanti... then kamma ripens as sixteen vipaakacittas... ***** Nina. 34521 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:24am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 85 Tiika Vis. XIV, 85 Tiika: The apprehension of ignorant children is stated in order to explain the non-origination of right view occurring in the way of ³There is giving² etc. N: The Tiika refers here to the third type of kusala citta, without right understanding of kamma and vipaka as stated by ³There is giving², namely, giving and its result, as explained in the Middle Length Sayings, no 41. Tiika:There is apprehension at once in order to explain the absence of hesitation and urging. N: The third type of kusala citta is spontaneous, without prompting. The Tiika explains here the text of the Vis. : Tiika: The cittas are devoid of pleasant feeling and this refers to the doing of meritorious deeds. N: The four last mentioned types of kusala citta are accompanied by indifferent feeling. The Tiika explains here the text of the Vis. : N: The Tiika then explains that the eight types of kusala cittas of the sense sphere have six classes of objects, namely as experienced through the sense-doors and through the mind-door. They motivate kusala kamma through the three doorways of body, speech and mind. We then read: Tiika: In this case, when the four types of kusala citta that are accompanied by wisdom produce rebirth with three roots, then kamma ripens as sixteen vipaakacittas. N: There are eight types of vipaakacittas with roots and eight types without roots which can arise in the course of one¹s life. Excellent kusala kamma with three beautiful roots, namely, wisdom, non-attachment and non-aversion, produces rebirth with three beautiful roots, and ripens in the course of life as sixteen types of vipaakacittas. There are eight types of sahetuka vipaakacittas: with wisdom or without it, accompanied by pleasant feeling or indifferent feeling, unprompted or prompted. The eight types of sahetuka vipaakacittas arising in a process are the cittas which are retention, tadaaramma.na cittas, after the javana-cittas (kusala cittas or akusala cittas) if a process takes its complete course. The tadaaramma.na-cittas can be of any of the eight types of sahetuka vipaakacittas. The other eight types of vipaakacittas are ahetuka vipaakacittas arising in a process. They are: the five kinds of sense-cognitions (seeing, etc.), receiving-consciousness (sapa.ticchana-citta) arising after the sense-cognition, and two types of investigation-consciousness (santiira.nacitta) that can arise after the receiving-consciousness. One type of investigation-consciousness is kusala vipaakacitta with indifferent feeling, and one type is kusala vipaakacitta with pleasant feeling arising in the case of an extraordinarily desirable object. The Tiika then mentions that twelve types of vipaakacittas instead of sixteen types can be the result of kusala kamma. Inferior kusala kamma with three beautiful roots and excellent kusala kamma with two beautiful roots, thus, without wisdom, can produce rebirth with two beautiful roots, and it ripens in the course of life as twelve types of vipaakacittas. Instead of eight types of sahetuka vipaakacittas four types arise in the course of life, since those with wisdom are excluded. Inferior kusala kamma with two roots produces rebirth that is ahetuka vipaakacitta and ripes in the course of life as ahetuka vipaakacittas, thus, only eight types of ahetuka vipaakacittas arise. In that case a person is handicapped from the first moment of life. The Tiika explains that even in an unhappy plane of existence, such as in the case of Naagas (serpent or demon) and Supa.n.nas (fairy birds) kusala kamma can produce pleasant results. A pleasant result cannot be produced by akusala kamma, it states. ***** Nina 34522 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 11:48am Subject: Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Nori and all, No problem. Regarding your question, I won't speculate what the Buddha would do in that situation. However, your question got me doing some research on what is being said about smells, may it be stench or fragrance, in the discourses. So here are some passages and discourses I came across: Anguttara Nikaya III.126 Katuviya Sutta Putrid http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an03-126.html Anguttara Nikaya IX.15 Ganda Sutta A Boil http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an09-015.html Therigatha Chapter V -- The Fives http://tinyurl.com/3a43b [Redirecting link] V.4 -- Nanda's Vision {vv. 82-86} [Thanissaro Bhikkhu, trans.] "Sick, putrid, unclean: look, Nanda, at this physical heap. Through contemplation of the foul, develop your mind, make it one, well-centered. As this [your body], so that. As that, so this. It gives off a foul stench, the delight of fools." Considering it thus, untiring, both day & night, I, with my own discernment dissecting it, saw. And as I, heedful, examined it aptly, this body -- as it actually is -- was seen inside & out. Then was I disenchanted with the body & dispassionate within: Heedful, detached, calmed was I. Unbound. Dhammapada 4 Flowers http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/khuddaka/dhp1/04.html Perhaps these discourse will provide a different perspective on the issue of smells. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi victor & jon, > > This is great. > > I can't thank you enough for clearing this up for me, and skillfully > finding a sutta to make the point exactly. > > So what do you think ? : > > If Gotama the Buddha with his retinue of arahants were residing at > some location and later there blew in this really horrible stench > that would not go away, and he had no reason to remain, then would > he say: 'Come samanas, let us go, this place is no longer a pleasant > abiding.' or would he remain and tolerate the stench ? > > > metta, > > nori [snip] 34523 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 0:32pm Subject: Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi Lee and all, Thanks for the reply. I am interested to learn more about the Chinese translation of the Nikayas. Is it online? Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Dhammaasoka" wrote: > Hi Victor and all, > [snip] I am not sure of the numbering of the sutta as I > actually refer to the Chinese translation version of the Nikayas. > === > > With gratitude, > Lee 34524 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 0:49pm Subject: [dsg] Re:sampajano Hi Nina and all, Thank you for this message and the info on sati, sampajanna, and atappa. Best wishes to you and your family. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Hi Victor, > I am always so impressed by the texts with atapii, sampajana, satima. I [snip] > even though pañña is still weak and coarse. But there can be a beginning of > . > Absence of dullness, I like this reminder. > Nina. 34525 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:06pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Ken, I'm flashing off this little post while my tax papers lie on the desk looking at me. ===================================================== K> I think something is a reality (is absolutely real) if it has its own inherent nature (characteristics). So a paramattha dhamma is inherently wholesome or unwholesome, desirable or undesirable and so on. The opinion of an observer has no influence on these characteristics. As to whether there exist such things as ultimate realities, I think the onus of proof is on those who say there isn't rather than those who say there is. It is self-evident that there has to be something, somewhere that is real. Otherwise, how could illusions be created? ====================================================== I think it would be a more meaningful approximation to say that a dhamma *IS* a nature or characteristic, as opposed to *has*. I agree with you, reality is real. Or in the spirit of the line above; reality (sic). It is in the superimposition of structure or process on reality that reality can be lost in favour of embroilment in, you guessed it, structure or process. I am not saying that reality is not structured, I am just saying that the structure of reality is not experienced. I think the structure or process that lies behind the superimposition of "ultimate" or "absolute" is the ultimate deception. I'm sorry if I have repeated what has already been said in the excellent posts of Howard or Bhinnatta. Kind Regards Herman 34526 From: Andrew Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Re: some caution and non-advice Dear Bhinnatta One of the perils of contributing to a group like DSG is that occasionally you get "lurkers" (like myself) butting in (like this) with half-baked questions/comments (like those below). (-: You rebuke Ken H for asserting that it is self-evident that there is *something* real, but then you make a comment like this : For when we do > these things [classify etc], there is an underlying assumption, built into the very > structure of the language we use to think and communicate, that words and > the entities/events they refer to, are permanent and unchanging structures > with their own innate characteristics independent of any outside force or > influence. The Buddha taught that this simply is not true. I'm sorry, but it's not self-evident to me that language and words inherently assume permanence and non-conditionality. That's a big call you are making - for me, it's bigger than Ken H's call. You go on to state what the Buddha taught. As far as I am aware, the Buddha taught using language and words and so did many arahants. If you are correct, their teachings inherently portray permanence and non- conditionality (even though they expressly state the opposite). Could it be wrong view to hold that worldlings can only be led away from "reality" (or "emptiness" if you prefer) by words and not closer to it? Best wishes Andrew 34527 From: seisen_au Date: Fri Jul 9, 2004 5:27pm Subject: [dsg] Re:sampajano Hi Nina, all, Nina wrote: > In the Book of Analysis sampajañña is translated as awareness, and > Sarah discussed this word with Suan. It is not so satisfactory.It > is actually pañña cetasika. Here in the text it is taken together > with sati: > see para > 525], absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view. This is > called awareness. thus of this mindfulness and this awareness he is > possessed, [see para 357], furnished. Therefore this is called >mindful and aware.> > Nina. Can sampajanna arise at the level of pariyatti, or is it strictly within the realms of patipatti and pativedha? Steve. ps. Nina, thankyou for your reply to my kamma vipaka question. 34528 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 0:22am Subject: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi Howard, --------------------------- H : > I'm not bothered by the idea of a dhamma having specific characteristics. However, I think that referring to them as "inherent nature" and especially as "OWN inherent nature" is misleading because it is already a problem to even speak of a dhamma as having its own being, inasmuch as the "being" of any phenomenon is completely dependent on other, similarly dependent, conditions. The fleeting existence of dhammas is, itself, fully dependent, and not "inherent". > ----------------------------- It is imperative that we see conditionality in all things. In that way, we are not caught out by the apparent reality of concepts (people, places, things to do, etc.). Instead, we become aware of conditioned reality (nama and rupa). However, you seem to be extending that caution so far as to say, "Don't be caught out by the apparent reality of nama or rupa - there is only conditionality!" I'm not sure that warning is necessary. ---------------------------- H: > Also, isn't the word 'reality' good enough? Does one have to imply the even greater sense of substantial own-being in using the expression "ABSOLUTELY real"? > ------------------------------ No, it is fine to talk about realities as being distinct from concepts. However, sometimes the point has to be made that realities (dhammas) are absolutely real whereas concepts are, at best, only conventionally real. --------------------------- H: > [I think it is very important to choose language that suggests the emptiness/corelessness aspect of dhammas, inasmuch as language use affects thought.] --------------------------- Yes, empty of a self -- lacking the core of selfhood -- but no less real for that. ------------------------------- KH: > > As to whether there exist such things as ultimate realities, I think the onus of proof is on those who say there isn't rather than those > who say there is. It is self-evident that there has to be > something, somewhere that is real. Otherwise, how could illusions be > created? ---------------------------------------------------- > Howard: Well, I don't want to make a fuss over this issue, but the norm is that the burden of proof lies on the one who makes a positive existential claim. > ----------------------------------------------------- If I walked into your house, pointing to people and furniture and saying, "That's not real, that's not real," then I should have to explain myself. I would explain that only nama and rupa are real; the other things are mere concepts. Similarly, if you or Binnatta are saying, "Let alone mere concepts, even nama and rupa are not real," then you need to explain how that could possibly be the case. It is, after all, contrary to common sense -- something has to exist; otherwise, nothing would exist. ------------------------------------------------ KH: > > As a characteristic > of paramattha dhammas, it is inseparable from them. It forms part > of their sabhava (substance, inherent nature). It characterises > them as being without an abiding self, soul or entity. ----------------------------------------------- > Howard: And please do note, Ken, that the word 'entity' means "existent". ------------------------------------------------ Ah, but not when I use it. :-) I thought it meant `living being.' Having mislaid my dictionary, I will assume you are right and withdraw the word 'entity.' :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34529 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 1:41am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Jon, The tax is still not finished, but then tax is never finished :-) I think there is a parallel between what I mean with quietness/mental silence and awareness free from sensuality and discursive and evaluative thought. With regards to the abhidhamma, I'd have to read it before I could really comment on what it teaches. From what I have read in secondary and tertiary sources, the abhidhamma does not lend itself to easy reading or understanding. To me the suttas teach the end of suffering, through renunciation of attachment to anything you care to mention. The suttas lend themselves to understanding. Something understood does not need to be remembered. A principle understood can be applied. The endless chain of words of the abhidhamma must be remembered until they are understood. If they are not understood they cascade around the skull. To the extent these incomprehensible words become objects of awareness again and again they are an affliction and prevent any progress towards the end of suffering whatsoever. Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@y...] Sent: Thursday, 8 July 2004 2:17 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Herman You say: > Awareness of the present moment rises and falls with it. One needs to be > quiet to see the ego struggle with its non-existence. I think you have mentioned the theme of 'quietness' in previous posts. I'd be interested to hear more about it. I know it has quite a role in some contemplative orders. Worth discussing further. Also your concept of 'mental silence'. Could you elaborate a little? One further comment. --- Herman Hofman wrote: ... > Some take pride in how wordy the Abhidhamma is. Yet when there is > awareness of the primary source of the Abhidhamma (reality) there is not > a single word in sight !!! Strange indeed that it should take so many > words to describe something so totally non-verbal. The present moment is > such a living, fluctuating reality, yet someone imagined this could be > captured in a valley of dry bones. Weird, totally weird. Do you then make a distinction between the suttas and the abhidhamma in this regard? Both are talking about the same truths, surely. > Some take pride in how difficult it is to master the Abhidhamma, they > take pride in just how many commentaries, and which ones, are necessary > to shed light on the intricate and subtle meanings in this great > intellectual masterpiece. And yet, somehow untangling this web of words > is considered a safer bet than mental silence, because in mental silence > there could be a self?? > > Awareness of the present moment rises and falls with it. One needs to be > quiet to see the ego struggle with its non-existence. Jon 34530 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:53am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Ken, I've given up on the tax. ===================================== Hi Herman, It's too quiet here; I'm going to butt in on your butting in. :-) ===================================== H > You're more than welcome. ------------- H: > If a commentary or other secondary work, which purports to draw out the meanings of a primary source, introduces material not found in the primary source, then it is not a commentary, but becomes a primary source in its own right. > --------------- Which secondary work do you have in mind? The Abhidhamma is not a secondary work. ============================================================= H> Just recapitulating from my initial, short reply: When you say that the Abhidhamma comes first, I wonder if you mean that in a historical sense. Because there is no reference in the suttas to the Abhidhamma (not to be confused with abhidhamma or abhivinaya) but there is reference to the suttas in the Abhidhamma, I think the assumption that the suttas historically preceded the Abhidhamma is a safe one. Secondly, the vinaya and the suttas are strictly an oral tradition, while the Abhidhamma is strictly a written tradition. --------------- H: > The various flavours of Buddhism there for the savouring have sprung into existence because of their "commentarial drawing out" only. > ---------------------------- You've lost me. I think the major Buddhist schools rely on their own primary sources - including their own suttas. Maybe that's not what you mean. Are you saying the suttas are self-explanatory? ================================================== H> I prefer to think that all the Buddhist schools have the same Buddha myths in common. The suttas are the suttas. The drawings out are the drawings out. A good sutta is one that appeals to many, yet speaks to everybody at their own level. A bad drawing out is one that says "this is what it means, and only this". --------------- H: > Promotion of one drawing out over another are silly at best, and do nothing to encourage the student of reality to see for themselves, where the difference is going to be made. > ---------------- Lost again! :-) Which competing `drawing- outs' are we talking about? =================================================== H> There are many competing symbolic (verbal) interpretations of the suttas, no? The Theravadan tradition, for example, has rejected quite a number of commentaries. ------------------------- The Abhidhamma does not draw out the suttas: the Abhidhamma comes first. If anything, the suttas condense the Abhidhamma. ================================================= H> An interesting view which I don't agree with :-) --------------- H: > Reality requires no drawing out. > --------------- Why doesn't it? ================================================ H> Who has the onus of proof here :-) ---------------- H: > I could start pointing to material in the Abhidhamma that is not to be found in the Nikayas. > ----------------- There is nothing controversial about that. Both the Abhidhamma and the Nikayas are the teaching of the Buddha. Can you point to anything in the Abhidhamma that is contrary to the Nikayas? ====================================================== H > It is a contradiction to the max to write seven weighty volumes of views, including one volume on how to refute those who disagree with any of the views, to say : "Give up your views, or suffer the consequences". --------------------------- H: > This would then raise the possibility that others would go to some length to prove me wrong, or show, by some drawing out, how X actually means Y and that this is what the Buddha actually meant, even though it seems different. ----------------------------- When you and I read suttas, Y might seem to be saying X, but if the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries say it is Y, then Y it is. =========================================================== H > I hope that you can see this as just a view. It is possible to become aware of a dearly-held but groundless view in a controlling, determining self. It is also possible to become aware of projecting that dearly-held self view on to external things. Blind faith is nothing more than a well-disguised projected self-view. (I'm not a self, but that is / they are ) I know you are a strong advocate of paramattha dhammas. What are the commentaries and the Abhidhamma in terms of paramattha dhammas? ----------------- H: > I hope you can see that this would be an academic, fruitless exercise, amounting to nothing more than a projection of intentions. > ----------------- Forget the opinions of uninstructed worldlings; if something in the Tipitaka is unclear, let's ascertain the opinions of the ancient Theras. ===================================================== H > If you do not find any opinions in the suttas that suggest, recommend, praise a practice secluded from the world, you may as well consult the phonebook for your instruction. ------------------- H: > What is real is beyond question. > ------------------- When we don't understand what is real, questions are only natural. ===================================================== H > For some, agreed! ------------------ H: > If you find that the Theravadan Abhidhamma in its entirety is a valid and accurate description of everything experienced and experiencable, well, good for you :-). ------------------ Comprehensive, `see for yourself,' proof is some way off (even for Jon). In the meantime, if you can see any internal contradictions in the Theravada texts, please, point them out! ----------------- H: > What would be worth asking myself, if I found myself having such a view, is "Why this view?". ----------------- Because it is the view sought by students of Theravada Buddhism. ================= H > It is no skin of the Buddha's nose whether you just study his books, or actually do what they say to do. ----------------- H: > It is beyond imagination that the Bahiya Sutta and the Ultimate Book of Ultimate Views come from the same author. ------------------ Sorry, I don't know my suttas that well; what does the Bahiya Sutta say that is it irreconcilable with [what I assume you mean as] the Abhidhamma? ========================= H > I think you also mentioned that, like me, you had never read the Abhidhamma, but take your opinions about it from people that you like/trust (unlike me in that respect). I'll tell you what, you read the Abhidhamma and I'll reread the Bahiya sutta (not really necessary, I think it sank in the first time). Let me know when you're done, and then we can exchange views :-) ----------------- H: > Watch out for those cows with bells :-) ---------------- A joke appreciated by those who know the Bahiya Sutta, no doubt. Serves me right for butting in. Hey, "butting!" Get it? :-) ========================= Good one :-) Cheers, big ears :-) Herman Kind regards, Ken H 34531 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:45am Subject: Noble Sympathy ! Friends: Please Maintain this Buddhist Wish of Noble Sympathy: May I be happy, may I maintain my happiness & live without any enmity. May all beings be successful and happy: May they be of joyful mind, all beings that breathe & have life, whether they are weak or strong, tiny or huge, visible or invisible, near or far away, born or to be born, let all beings enjoy safety, content, ease & bliss. Let no one deceive another, let no one be harsh in speech, let no one by anger or hatred wish ill to his neighbour. Even as a mother, at the risk of her own life, guards and protects her only child, so with a boundless heart of compassion, I venerate all living beings by permeating the entire universe with sympathy, above, beneath & all around without limit, immeasurable. Thus I cultivate an infinite Goodwill toward this whole world. Standing or walking, sitting or lying down, during all my waking hours I treasure this thought that this very way of caring, is thee indeed truly Noblest behaviour in this whole wide world. Thus shall I, by stilling pointless discussions & controversies, by acting blamelessly, be gifted with tranquillity & true insight. Thus shall I subdue sense-pleasure urge & never again know rebirth. May this inspire all beings to fulfil the conditions leading to Nibbana. May all beings be thus utterly liberated & released from suffering. May all beings thus escape the dangers of ageing, disease and death. Yeah ! For further inspiration: Living Buddhist Masters: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=404507 Essential Practise: http://www.pariyatti.com/book.cgi?prod_id=403375 All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 34532 From: Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 3:54am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/10/04 3:28:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > >Howard: > And please do note, Ken, that the word 'entity' means "existent". > ------------------------------------------------ > > Ah, but not when I use it. :-) > > I thought it meant `living being.' Having mislaid my dictionary, I > will assume you are right and withdraw the word 'entity.' :-) > ========================= We're both right on this. Actually, one common meaning is, indeed, "living being", but rather much in the sense of a truly self-existent person or individual (a concept which we Buddhists need deal gingerly with ;-), and the root source of the word is the Latin "ens" referring to existence. Most generally the word means a separate, self-existent, independent "thing" The Webster entry is as follows: _________________________ Main Entry: en·ti·ty Pronunciation: 'en-t&-tE, 'e-n&- Function: noun Inflected Form(s): plural -ties Etymology: Medieval Latin entitas, from Latin ent-, ens existing thing, from coined present participle of esse to be —more at IS Date: 1596 1 a : BEING, EXISTENCE; especially : independent, separate, or self-contained existence b : the existence of a thing as contrasted with its attributes 2 : something that has separate and distinct existence and objective or conceptual reality --------------------------------------------- Notice especially the following elements of the foregoing definition that make the word 'entity' a poor one to use with regard to dhammas: "independent", "separate", "self-contained", and "existence contrasted with attributes". The word 'entity' suggests exactly the sort of self-existent, substantial core that the Dhamma is diametrically opposed to. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34533 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re:sampajano Hi Steve, op 10-07-2004 02:27 schreef seisen_au op seisen_@h...: Here in the text it is taken together >> with sati: >> > see para >> 525], absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view. This is >> called awareness. thus of this mindfulness and this awareness he is >> possessed, [see para 357], furnished. Therefore this is called >> mindful and aware.> > S: Can sampajanna arise at the level of pariyatti, or is it strictly > within the realms of patipatti and pativedha? N: In the context of it is not merely intellectual understanding. More than that. Aataapii is a name for right effort, the four right efforts, here of the eightfold Path. Book of Analysis, para 525 makes clear what level of pañña is referred to: <...jewel of wisdom, absence of dullness, truth investigation, right view. This is called awareness [sampajañña]. Thus of this mindfulness and this awareness he is possesses,:P: furnished. Thus a bhikkhu mindful and aware [sampajano] approaches; mindful and aware he departs; mindful and aware he looks ahead....> Thus this is similar to in the section on Clear Comprehension. Also for the development of samatha sati sampajañña is necessary. The meditator should be aware and realize when there is lobha, when not, when the citta is kusala, and when akusala. He should be aware of all the different jhanafactors that should be developed. He needs keen pañña and not merely intellectual understanding. As to pariyatti and patipatti, these denote phases in the development of pañña, but it is difficult to draw a line between them, because also at the level of pariyatti there is a beginning of awareness of the dhammas one studies and considers. We hear time and again that seeing only experiences colour or visible object. That it is different from thinking of a person we perceive. While listening, could there never be also a moment of investigating with a degree (however weak) of awareness of seeing at that moment? And on the other hand, when there is patipatti one does not discard study and considering. They can and should be combined all along, but while studying the thinking can be realized more often as a nama-element. To me that seems very natural. One can always learn more details, more about the different conditions and consider them. Also enlightened disciples, even arahats listened to the Dhamma Discourses. There is also another aspect of sampajañña: the four kinds of clear comprehension (Soma, p. 85, and Dispeller of Delusion II, p. 72): of the right purpose (when going somewhere it should be a worthy purpose), of suitability (the place where one goes may be unsuitable or dangerous), of resort (gocara, the meditation subject) and of non-delusion (as to what nama is and what rupa). It is helpful to go somewhere where one meets the right person who explains the Dhamma so that one can learn to be aware of nama and rupa, knowing the right resort or kammatthaana, the right object of satipatthana. And in that way there will be non-delusion. I shall continue with the other texts about satima and aataapii. Nina. 34534 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 10:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Every Paramattha dhamma Dear Azita, Tnak you for your letter, sorry about the delay. I hope your computer is O.K. now. op 03-07-2004 04:01 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: so have been listening to tapes more than > reading and I find them very helpful. N: Could you share what you heard? A: As Acharn Sujin would say 'don't go away from the present moment', > and I feel it takes a great deal of patience to 'accept' this present > moment. So often we are thinking ahead, thinking behind, the sea of > concepts. Of course, we can be aware of thinking as just another > reality, if conditions are right... > this is a type of wrong view, is it not? if we think we can set > aside time to be aware. N: We better watch out, wrong view and wrong practice can slip in any time, so long as we are not sotapannas. A: I think we forget that distraction is real, often its just bad > feeling and that's what we want to get away from - well, in my case > anyway. N: A lot of thinking and you realize it only afterwards. But, no regret about any reality that arises, that is important. A: Have a nice time away Nina. Don't go falling in any rivers or > anything like that:) N: We want deserted places and that is what we get. Nina. 34535 From: Sujjhana Bhinnatta Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 11:15am Subject: Re: some caution an non-advice Hi Andrew :-) You wrote: > One of the perils of contributing to a group like DSG is that > occasionally you get "lurkers" (like myself) butting in (like this) > with half-baked questions/comments (like those below). (-: ********************* B: I too was a lurker before I opened my big mouth. Sometimes lurking is the wiser thing to do. ;-) ********************* > You rebuke Ken H for asserting that it is self-evident that there is > *something* real, but then you make a comment like this : For when we do > these things [classify etc], there is an underlying assumption, built into the very > structure of the language we use to think and communicate, that words and > the entities/events they refer to, are permanent and unchanging structures > with their own innate characteristics independent of any outside force or > influence. The Buddha taught that this simply is not true. A:> I'm sorry, but it's not self-evident to me that language and words > inherently assume permanence and non-conditionality. ************************ B: Thats okay. Neither the Buddha nor I ever said it was supposed to be self-evident or obvious. Find out for yourself whether its true or not. ************************ A:> That's a big call you are making - for me, it's bigger than Ken H's call. You go > on to state what the Buddha taught. As far as I am aware, the Buddha > taught using language and words and so did many arahants. ************************ B: You are correct. The Buddha and all his disciples used words to communicate the dhamma to worldlings. They were able to do so because they were able to see the emptiness of words, seeing them as symbols, the use and meaning of which is completely dependent on circumstance. They did not have the assumption quoted above and mentioned in my previous post and were able to see the three characteristics even in language. In being mindful of their speech, they were very aware of what words were used, so as not to create too much confusion or ambiguity in the minds of their listeners; hence the numerous lists and all of the repetition we see in the suttas. The Abhidhammikas too were very aware of the emptiness of words, however they needed them to point the way to reality. Moreover, after the dhamma had been put into writing, I think the compilers of the abhidhamma had an even greater insight into the human tendency to want to cling to the perceived permanency of words. Many of the members of DSG are students of the Pali language. I would wager that many of them have directly experienced the difficulty in translating some words while at the same time trying to maintain their conceptual underpinnings. ************************ A:> If you are correct, their teachings inherently portray permanence and non- > conditionality (even though they expressly state the opposite). ************************ B: You've misread me. The teachings like all other things embody impermanence. And thats what they claim to do as well. The permanence and absolutism comes from our own wrong views, not from the teachings themselves. ************************ A:> Could it be wrong view to hold that worldlings can only be led away > from "reality" (or "emptiness" if you prefer) by words and not closer > to it? ************************ B: Yes, I think it is wrong view to hold that language only keeps us in bondage. Such a one-sided view is common amongst some Zen practicioners who hold that language by its very nature cannot convey reality in any skillfull way. So they do away with scriptural study altogether in favor of "just sitting." It is my opinion that holding such a view would negate the entire oral and scriptural tradition of Buddhism. This is not a view that I hold nor do I propound it. Friends, there are four ultimate realities. Why are they ultimate? Because they can be experienced and not merely thought about. They are not rupa, not citta, not cetasikas, but very real experiences that through conditioning one another create the All. They are not independent entities, self sufficient and unchanging. Consciousness arises with form and could not exist without it. Mental factors arise with consciousness and could not exist without it. Nibbana is the only unconditioned reality however in calling it such, we miss it completely. These four realities are neither 'ultimate,' nor 'reality,' nor 'four,' for such distinctions are still on the level of conception. However, to build a bridge from our mundane experience of a conceptual world to that of reality, we use concepts to rid ourselves of conception. We use definitions to understand that reality is not so defined. We mustn't get caught up in our own ideas about the truth. For 'truth' is still a concept and as such is open to myriad interpretations and reasoning. The truth is like a hurricane. Concepts and ideas spin all around gathering momentum and more ideas. Eventually it grows into an entire philosophy capable of destroying small islands. But the whole time, the truth, about which all these ideas and concepts spin with violent fury, is at its core completely calm and empty. I cannot express what I am trying to say any better than I already have in prior posts. I will leave you with a quote from Joseph Goldstein's book "The Experience of Insight" which does a far better job than I: "All of these ultimate realities can be experienced. The words we use to describe them are concepts which merely point to the experience. The meditation practice develops awareness of them beyond the words. We are all in the process of breaking the chains that keep us bound in the cave of ignorance [referring to a previous Plato reference]. Please understand that concepts should be used. It's not that once we experience a reality beyond the conceptual level we throw out the whole intellectual process. We have to use that process of mind in dealing successfully with the world, in living our lives. There are two levels of truth: one is conventional truth in which we use all these concepts of "man" and "woman" and "I" and "time" and "place." The other is ultimate truth which deals with the four realities. We can use concepts without being a slave to them." I would only add that even in the study of the Dhamma, we are dealing only with concepts. Thus it is the purpose and meaning of Buddhist meditation, to penetrate those concepts and experience the real. Which is something that cannot be done by classifying and playing around with words. May we all soon release ourselves from ourselves. May you all be happy, present, and mindful. Bhinnatta P.S. I would like to add that I have learned so much from this one simple discussion than I ever could from reading one hundred books. I sincerely express gratitude to all who keep me checking my e-mail. You are truly Bodhisattvas in my view. :-) 34536 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 2:00pm Subject: Re: some caution an non-advice Hi Howard, Ken H, Herman, Bhinnatta, and all, Please forgive me for butting in. I see that your discussion in this thread has become quite involved. While I won't comment directly and specifically on what's been written, I will try to share some thought and maybe it will provide a different perspective. First, the term "name-&-form", like the term "the five aggregates", refers to and encompasses all that are dukkha, all that are in the world: birth, aging, death, being with the unloved one, separation from the love one, going to war, gain, loss, status, disgrace, censure, praise, pleasure, & pain.....the list can go on and on. All these that are dukkha are subsumed under the term "name-&-form" or "the five aggregates." In other words, the term "name-&-form" or "the five aggregates" is much more general (or abstract, some might say) than the term, for instance, "birth" or "death" or "being with the unloved one." Metta, Victor 34537 From: Andrew Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 4:29pm Subject: Re: some caution an non-advice Dear Bhinnatta Thank you for your fluent and fulsome response. I'm glad you gained something from putting your thoughts down on (computer) paper! (-: For myself too I find this is often a useful process - but for me it needs an awful lot of editing! I read your post in detail and in particular your thoughts on language and words. To be entirely honest, I can't see that you are saying anything different from what has been said on this list before by the Pali scholars or "Abhidhammikas". Everyone seems to accept that the Teachings describe the "direct experience" of reality, something beyond intellectual understanding. For this reason, your comment below may be controversial if it is taken as implying that Pali scholars/Abhidhammikas only ever seek to classify and play around with words. Bhinnatta: I would only add that even in the study of the Dhamma, we are dealing only > with concepts. Thus it is the purpose and meaning of Buddhist meditation, to > penetrate those concepts and experience the real. Which is something that > cannot be done by classifying and playing around with words. > Andrew: What you say above is true IMHO but we then need to acknowledge that there are differing views on the need for study, the role of study, the meaning of "meditation" and how to "experience the real". It may be that those differing views are correct for persons of different accumulations and that each approach has its own special pitfalls for the unwary. I recognise the pitfalls of language, but I'm not going to be so suspicious and dismissive of it that I can't see the advantages it may bring when used with wisdom. That would be like starting to dismantle the raft half way across to the far shore. Best wishes Andrew 34538 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 10, 2004 7:53pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Herman, ------------------------------------------ H: > When you say that the Abhidhamma comes first, I wonder if you mean that in a historical sense. Because there is no reference in the suttas to the Abhidhamma (not to be confused with abhidhamma or abhivinaya) but there is reference to the suttas in the Abhidhamma, I think the assumption that the suttas historically preceded the Abhidhamma is a safe one. ------------------------------------------ Your use of upper and lower case A's is the key, I think. Clearly, there was an abhidhamma before most of the suttas were delivered and before the Abhidhamma was assembled in its present form. In most instances, the people who heard the suttas had been thoroughly schooled in abhidhamma. They would have met arahants who, from the earliest times, had been sent out alone or in small groups teaching what, I feel sure, would have closely resembled the present-day Abhidhamma. ---------------------------- KH: > > Can you point to anything in the Abhidhamma that is contrary to the Nikayas? > > H: > It is a contradiction to the max to write seven weighty volumes of views, including one volume on how to refute those who disagree with any of the views, to say : "Give up your views, or suffer the consequences". > --------------------------- If, as you say, that is a contradiction, it is still not a contradiction between the Abhidhamma and the Suttanta. In both pitakas, it is taught that there can be right understanding and there can be wrong understanding. ---------------------------- KH: > > When you and I read suttas, Y might seem to be saying X, but if the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries say it is Y, then Y it is. > > H: > I hope that you can see this as just a view. > ----------------------------------- I can see that it is a view in the conventional sense of the word, and that it indicates the presence of view (ditthi) in the paramattha sense of the word. As to whether it is `just' ditthi, I'm not so sure. To the extent that it forms part of pariyatti (associating with the wise, hearing the true Dhamma and considering the true Dhamma), it is more than just a view it is the beginning of right view (samma-ditthi, panna). ------------- <. . . > H: > I know you are a strong advocate of paramattha dhammas. What are the commentaries and the Abhidhamma in terms of paramattha dhammas? -------------- That sounds like a useful exercise; I will have a go at it, but remember it will be just my humble opinion. The words of the Pali Canon and its [arahant] commentaries are concepts. When correctly understood, they are concepts that refer to paramattha dhammas. (This opens a whole new topic of discussion – i.e., that the Dhamma imparts only ultimate truth (paramattha sacca) not conventional truth and not a combination of the two.) But they are not just concepts that refer to paramattha dhammas. Somewhere in amongst all those concepts there is a teaching that only a Tathagata can make known. I sometimes wonder if there is a supernatural ingredient of some kind. I have mentioned this to Sukin but I only got confused and self-contradictory. I am happy to let it ride for the time being. :-) ----------------- H > If you do not find any opinions in the suttas that suggest, recommend, praise a practice secluded from the world, you may as well consult the phonebook for your instruction. ------------------- Here, we can throw identical accusations at one another. I say your conventional understanding of seclusion belongs in a phonebook more than in a Dhamma book. There are only dhammas. Remote forests, empty caves and deserted cemeteries are mere concepts (non-existent in the ultimate sense). In the ultimate sense, the dhammas of the present moment comprise the world. If those dhammas include alobha then there is seclusion from the world. So, from Dhamma books we learn true seclusion; from other books we learn, at best, conventional seclusion. (Does your phonebook list rural subscribers?) :-) ------------- H > It is no skin of the Buddha's nose whether you just study his books, or actually do what they say to do. ------------- Far from being mutually exclusive, the two are mutually inclusive. Study (pariyatti) is an intellectual level of practice described in the books as leading to direct practice (patipatti), which leads to enlightenment (pativedha). ----------------- H > I think you also mentioned that, like me, you had never read the Abhidhamma, but take your opinions about it from people that you like/trust (unlike me in that respect). I'll tell you what, you read the Abhidhamma and I'll reread the Bahiya sutta (not really necessary, I think it sank in the first time). Let me know when you're done, and then we can exchange views :-) -------------- What a boon it was to discover the works of K Sujin and her students! Before that, the Abhidhamma read like intellectual mumbojumbo. Let alone the Abhidhamma (which at least sets things out for beginners) the Sutta-pitaka was a minefield: suttas meant just about anything I wanted them to mean. So don't hold your breath: I won't be reading the Abhidhamma from cover to cover. I will bide my time here at DSG making occasional forays into the original texts. Ken H PS: Now get back to the tax, and yes you were right about my working for the ATO (do you have ESP?): I was an investigations officer, but that was long, long ago. 34539 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 0:30am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Ken H, For more on what is being said about the Abhidhamma, here is a link to a message posted earlier: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34474 Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > Hi Herman, > [snip] > > Ken H [snip] 34540 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:10am Subject: Dedication of New Meditation temple Hello All, For people on this forum who happen to live in southern Michigan, this Saturday July 17 the Dhammasala Forest Monastery will dedicate it's new Meditation Temple. This is an all day affair beginning with almsround at 10:30, and then etc etc though the day (dhamma talk at 2:00) and ending with Thai dancing at 3:30. There will be abbots visiting from Chicago, D.C., and Wisconsin. There will also be a guided tour of the grounds of this forest-style Thai wat. Also in attendance will be Chao Khun Amorn, President of the Dhammayutika monks of the US, and the Thai Consulate to the United States. This is a wonderful practice environment, and if you haven't visited it before, this saturday would be a great time for an introduction-- and to eat more Thai food than humanly possible. Wat Dhammasala is located north east of Lansing, not far, and only about 20 minutes north of I-96. Contact me offline at armyponcho_dot_dad@y... if you need a map, etc. Bill Ann Arbor 34541 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 6:06am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Ken, Thank you for your reply. I am persuing this discussion in the following spirit. The history of the Abhidhamma is not a matter of life or death for me. I do not look for absolute fact in history, but I think it is possible to come to better and worse approximations. And it is always interesting and revealing to see how various historical interpretations function to prop up a multitude of other views in the present. ------------------------------------------ H: > When you say that the Abhidhamma comes first, I wonder if you mean that in a historical sense. Because there is no reference in the suttas to the Abhidhamma (not to be confused with abhidhamma or abhivinaya) but there is reference to the suttas in the Abhidhamma, I think the assumption that the suttas historically preceded the Abhidhamma is a safe one. K: > Your use of upper and lower case A's is the key, I think. Clearly, there was an abhidhamma before most of the suttas were delivered and before the Abhidhamma was assembled in its present form. In most instances, the people who heard the suttas had been thoroughly schooled in abhidhamma. They would have met arahants who, from the earliest times, had been sent out alone or in small groups teaching what, I feel sure, would have closely resembled the present-day Abhidhamma. ---------------------------- H:> Here are a few reasons why I'll stick to my story for the time being :-) 1 There is no mention of an abhidhamma at the First Council. 2 Majjhima Nikaya 143, Anathapindikovada Sutta sets forth the kind of advanced teaching given to one gone forth. It takes up less space than this post will. 3 The P.T.S Pali English dictionary says that Abhidhamma, as the name of the Third Pitaka, appears only in the Chronicles and Commentaries. Gotta go. The F1 is just about to come on. Catch you later Herman 34542 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 0:02pm Subject: with ardour Dear all, getting back to Sarah's message to Suan: re: text of Book of Analysis (Vibhanga): 550. “Mindful and aware means: therein what is mindfulness? that which is mindfulness, constant mindfulnes, [see para 220], right mindfulness. This is called mindfulness. Sarah: We have already discussed how awareness is rather inadequate for sampajanno (clear comprehension, wisdom etc). I also tend to pause rather at translations using constant mindfulness’ (here for anussati). Nina: anu, as I said before, can mean following closely. A nama or rupa appears now, and mindfulness can be aware of it, and in that sense it follows it closely. While seeing occurs, there is at that moment only seeing, no sati, but sati can be aware of its characteristic just after it has fallen away. Anussati is sometimes translated as recollection. There is non-forgetfulness of the dhamma that appears. I quote now § 524: Ardent: aataapii. In the Co to the satipatthanasutta by Ven. Soma (p. 53) it is explained that ardour is a name for energy. We read (p. 54) in the Subco. a gloss about mindfulness: The Co text continues: The subco explains: Visuddhimagga: I, 7: The Visuddhimagga begins with this verse: The Visuddhimagga explains the purification of virtue, siila, including all levels of kusala (I, 140), even up to arahatship. There cannot be purity of siila without satipatthana, because, without it we take all kusala for mine and self. Concluding with some quotes from A. Sujin's Perfections, about viriyaarambha, as explained by the Co. to the Mahaa-Niddesa (Tuva.taka Sutta). Aarambha is attempt, inception of energy. We read: <³Effort is called Œaarambha¹ because it is striving. The term viriyaarambha renders the characteristic of that kind of striving. What kind of striving? It is striving by way of escaping from idleness. Onward effort is so called by virtue of reaching a higher and higher state. Exertion is so called by virtue of rising up and keeping going. Endeavour is so called by virtue of special exertion; zeal, of being zealous; vigour, of firmness; fortitude, of bearing (supporting) citta and cetasikas, or of bearing the continuity of kusala by unbroken procedure.² These are the characteristics of viriya. It is the escaping from idleness, progressing towards a higher state, continued exertion without stopping, zeal and fortitude by progressing on. We read in the Commentary: ³Another method of exposition: -This viriyarambha is Œstriving¹ in expelling lust, Œonward effort¹ in cutting the bonds, Œexertion¹ in escaping from the floods, Œendeavour¹ in reaching the further shore, Œzeal¹ in being a forerunner, Œardour¹ in exceeding the limit, Œvigour¹ in lifting the bolt (of ignorance), and Œfortitude¹ in producing steadfastness. ¹Verily, let the skin, veins and bones dry up¹ - thus by virtue of unfaltering effort at such time is the Œstate of a man of unfaltering effort¹.² The Commentary explains further that energy does not let go of the desire-to-do, chanda (which is necessary to accomplish something), that it does not give up the task, and does not give in to discouragement with regard to the performing of kusala.> N: When I read the words: Ardent, clearly comprehending and mindful, aataapii sampajano satima, I am reminded to wake up from mental lassitude, indolence and inward stagnation, to be attentive to the task that is right at hand. That is to say, not give in to discouragement with regard to the performing of kusala, not giving up listening to the Dhamma and considering the reality that appears, so that conditions are accumulated for the arising of right mindfulness and right understanding. This is necessary in all circumstances. Nina. 34543 From: kenhowardau Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:47pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" wrote: > Hi Ken H, > > For more on what is being said about the Abhidhamma, here is a link > to a message posted earlier: > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34474 > > Metta, > Victor Hi Victor, Yes, don't worry, I have been reading all your posts. This one is only a few days old. It is the first in a trilogy: 1, the Abhidhamma teaches paramattha dhammas 2, paramatha dhammas are metaphysics and 3, metaphysics are wrong view. I know you mean well, Victor, but do you know where this path of yours is leading? Beware of the most popular (and most simplistic) of all religious beliefs: namely, that there is only one Truth, God or Universal Soul and, eventually, we will all be reunited with it: All the great teachers -- Moses, Gotama, Jesus, Mohammed -- taught the same Truth but in different ways. The way taught by the Buddha was especially tricky: it was a `not-self' way of bringing us back to our Eternal Self. You might think I am being paranoid, but consider this quote from Access to Insight: "In this sense, the anatta teaching is not a doctrine of no- self, but a not-self strategy for shedding suffering by letting go of its cause, leading to the highest, undying happiness. At that point, questions of self, no-self, and not-self fall aside. Once there's the experience of such total freedom, where would there be any concern about what's experiencing it, or whether or not it's a self?" (end quote) So the Buddha did not really teach anatta at all! That was just a ruse to lead us back to our eternal soul. Don't be taken in by this New Buddhism, Victor. It can only be sustained if we discredit first, the ancient commentaries, then the Abhidhamma and then the Suttanta and the Vinaya. What will we put in their place, the Holy Bible? The Buddha predicted this would happen. The true Dhamma comes to light for a while, then it is discredited and the world is plunged back into darkness. During an interminable reign of Wrong View, the only known hope is for an eternal soul and the only known alternative is annihilation. No wonder the Buddha said that Wrong View (eternalism / annihilationism) was the greatest of all evils. Should we get depressed about this great evil? How many tortured souls will be turned on the wheel of samsara? A trillion, a zillion, a zillion zillion? No, according to the Buddha, not a single soul will suffer. There is no soul, there are only dhammas. Wrong View is only a conditioned dhamma and as such, it is anicca, dukkha and anatta. There is no `you' `me' `them' or `us.' Good news, don't you think? :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34544 From: Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 4:28pm Subject: Vism.XIV 86 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 86. I. B. The consciousness of the 'fine-material sphere' is fivefold, being classed according to association with the jhana factors. That is to say, (9) the first is associated with applied thought, sustained thought, happiness, bliss, and concentration, (10) the second leaves out applied thought from that, (11) the third leaves out sustained thought from that, (12) the fourth makes happiness fade away from that, (13) the fifth is associated with equanimity and concentration, bliss having subsided. 34545 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 7:44pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Ken H, Thank you for the message. So I believe you have also read the messages #34476 and #34477 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34476 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34477 on what metaphysics and/or ontology are about. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "kenhowardau" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "yu_zhonghao" > wrote: > > Hi Ken H, > > > > For more on what is being said about the Abhidhamma, here is a > link > > to a message posted earlier: > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34474 > > > > Metta, > > Victor > > Hi Victor, > > Yes, don't worry, I have been reading all your posts. This one is > only a few days old. [snip] > > Kind regards, > Ken H 34546 From: nori Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:08am Subject: Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Victor, Jon and all, I have discovered that it is possible through exertion of ones will/intention to objectively experience sensations, without reacting with the pleasure which is normally derived from it. For example (and you can try this) when eating food which one finds pleasing, it is possible through ones own volition to experience only the sensations which are derived from eating this food (the texture, temperature, taste, etc.), and not react with the pleasure which would normally follow ("mmmmm, this tastes good, ahhhhhh"); one can, by ones own volition/intention/will suspend this reaction of ?ereceiving?f or 'taking' the pleasure which is derived from it. From our previous discussion, we have determined that certain 'Forms cognizable via the eye, ...sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... tactile sensations cognizable via the body' are inherently ?e-- agreeable, pleasing, charming?f. So then what do think is good practice (as proclaimed by Gotama Buddha) when we encounter these things: Do we: a) Allow the natural reaction of pleasure to follow through without indulging further or b) exert our will and intention to objectively experience the senses without reacting ? metta, nori 34547 From: Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Victor (and Ken) - In a message dated 7/11/04 10:45:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > Hi Ken H, > > Thank you for the message. So I believe you have also read the > messages #34476 and #34477 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34476 > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34477 > > on what metaphysics and/or ontology are about. > > Metta, > Victor ============================ I presume that your point is that metaphysics and ontology involve questions which, according to the Buddha, are not useful in that don't conduce to liberation, and should thus be avoided. In part of one article you quote the following: "it [metaphysics] can be identified as the study of any of the most fundamental concepts and beliefs about the basic nature of reality, on which many other concepts and beliefs rest -- concepts such as being, existence, universal, property, relation, causation, space, time, event, and many others." It does occur to me, though, that it is a matter of degree and of specific content as to what "metaphysics" the Buddha rules out as not useful. Are not the tilakkhana in the category of "basic nature of reality", and do they not involve "property"? Does not paticcasamuppada involve both "relation" and "causation"? And does not anicca involve all of "being", "existence", "time", and "event"? I agree that the Buddha trains one to *look and see directly* observing that the nature of things is as he taught rather than to memorize and contemplate loads of conceptual details, and that the purpose of the Dhamma is not intellectual gratification but liberation. But might not it be an overstatement to say that no metaphysics whatsoever (whether phenomenalist or existentialist or whatever) is involved with the Dhamma? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34548 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 2:59am Subject: Useless ... Friends: The Invisible Mental Treasure: The Buddha said: I, Bhikkhus, do not know of even one other single thing, which brings so much pain as the untaught & untrained mind! Such useless mind, Bhikkhus, carry much suffering.. I, Bhikkhus, do not know of even one other single thing, which brings so much pleasure as the refined & trained mind! Such fully capable mind, Bhikkhus, gives great bliss.. Full text: http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita/Canon/Sutta/AN/AN.I.5-6.htm All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 34549 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sun Jul 11, 2004 10:08pm Subject: Quite Capable ! Friends: Succesful Operator: The Buddha said: Bhikkhus, I do not know even one other single thing, leading so much away from any goal as the untamed, unguarded, unprotected & uncontrolled mind. Such untamed, unguarded, unprotected & uncontrolled mind misses any aim! Bhikkhus, I do not know even one other single thing, leading so directly to whatever goal as the tamed, guarded, protected & controlled mind. Such tamed, guarded, protected & controlled mind indeed reaches any aim! Full text: http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita/Canon/Sutta/AN/AN.I.6-7.htm All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 34550 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 6:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] dialogue about kusala. Dear Nina and All --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > It is nice to hear from you so regularly. We are now in Meiringen, from which the 'merangue' takes its name, and famous also as the scene of death of Sherlock Holmes the fictional detective, at the Reichenbach Falls here. Our hotel has a good view of the R. Falls, and we visited there today in cloudy, stormy weather (appropriately). Then went far up the valley. Everything in M. was closed yesterday, so glad to be able to check in again today. > The music driving you crazy made me laugh. You and crazy??? You bet. You've only ever seen my 'good' side ;-)). Was put to the test last night by a bunch of rowdy young students from USA in the rooms above and all around us. Mixed kusala and akusala arose ... > op 07-07-2004 19:59 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...: > > On this post, Kate wondered why we talk so much about kusala. She > thinks > > that taking enjoyment in the mountain views and the wild-flowers is > > beneficial ('food for the soul', she calls it) and can't be bad, > although > > she can see that enjoying food, for example, is self-centred. > N: Yes, I also need nature, it helps me to recover, good for the eyes > after > all the computer work. Kate was glad to hear this and the rest of your message. Thinks she has a soul mate in you!¨ Sarah sends her regards to everyone, and says she's greatly enjoying all the messages. Jon 34551 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:14am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Ken, Some more reply. ====================== KH: > > When you and I read suttas, Y might seem to be saying X, but if the Abhidhamma and the ancient commentaries say it is Y, then Y it is. > > H: > I hope that you can see this as just a view. > ----------------------------------- I can see that it is a view in the conventional sense of the word, and that it indicates the presence of view (ditthi) in the paramattha sense of the word. As to whether it is `just' ditthi, I'm not so sure. To the extent that it forms part of pariyatti (associating with the wise, hearing the true Dhamma and considering the true Dhamma), it is more than just a view it is the beginning of right view (samma-ditthi, panna). ============================================ I very much like what you consider pariyatti - associating with the wise, hearing the true Dhamma and considering the true Dhamma. Could you or someone else please provide a link to the suttas where the associating with the wise etc is referred to as pariyatti? All I can find is commentary material which suggests that pariyatti is learning the Scriptures by heart. The more I study about the books which make up the Theravadin tradition, the more I see a chasm between the Nikayas and what has followed them. The following may be the quirkiest thing you've ever heard, but I believe there is an enormous difference between hearing the Dhamma, and reading a book. Unless what is read is heard, I just do not think it is possible to hear the Dhamma when reading a book. You wrote to Victor: "The true Dhamma comes to light for a while, then it is discredited and the world is plunged back into darkness. During an interminable reign of Wrong View, the only known hope is for an eternal soul and the only known alternative is annihilation. No wonder the Buddha said that Wrong View (eternalism / annihilationism) was the greatest of all evils." I believe the discrediting of the Dhamma started not long after the Buddha's death, and it is intertwined with the development of that black art known as writing. Reading/writing is the foundation for a profound change in human consciousness. Literacy is a compounding of conceptualization that goes way beyond speech. I think it is nigh on impossible for a literate mind that feeds itself more literacy to see clearly and directly the simple truths that the Buddha spoke. The written dhamma produces no stream enterers. The mind that reads is just too far removed from reality. (A little test - look at this post on your screen and see if it is possible to *not* see meanings in the black and white shapes - rest assured , there are none, but you see them anyway, and you can't do a thing about it!!!) I'm sorry if this is a bit looney :-) But then, so is becoming :-) Thanks for reading Herman 34552 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > =========================== > Again, there may indeed be no advantage at all even if the theory > that > non-neutral vedana issues forth only from contact with bodily sensation, > but > I still tend to think there *is* an advantage. When there is heightened > attention directed towards bodily sensation, given that such sensation > is the source > of non-neutral vedana and that attention is "focussed" at that very > point, > vedanupassana would tend to arise as well. Moreover, inasmuch, according > to the > same theory, as mindstate frequently produces bodily sensation, > attention to > bodily sensation makes it easier to pick up on the closely preceding and > causative mindstate. Thus it would seem that should the theory be true, > a big "if" > of course, then mindfulness of bodily sensation may also tend towards > mindfulness of the second and third foundations of mindfulness, and when > these three > reach their pinnacle, then the fourth foundation of mindfulness > (involving > direct awareness of such things as the tilakkhana, the four noble truhs, > and > dependent origination) would come into play... I feel there is a danger in such speculation (as I think you agree this is), in that it tends to lead us away from awareness of the presently arising dhamma. The reason I say this is that if we tend to the idea that awareness of one particular kind of dhamma or another is particularly advantageous, then there is likely to be the tendency to achieve awareness of that particular dhamma to the exclusion of other dhammas. I find no support in the texts for making this kind of directed effort. Suttas such as the Satipatthana Sutta discuss the importance of awareness of all dhammas, without distinction. > ... Again, this is all > hypothesizing, Jon, > and I agree that there is nowhere in any sutta that I have read any of > this > addressed. All that I have noticed is the close relatioj in the suttas > between > sensation and vedana, and the great emphasis placed on mindfulness of > the body, which is suggestive, but nothing more. I agree that mindfulness of the body is praised by the Buddha, but it is not alone in that regard. (I'm puzzled by your reference here to 'the close relation in the suttas between [bodily?] sensation and vedana'; grateful if you could elaborate on this. Thanks.) Jon 34553 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi, Victor --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon and all, ... > > Understanding at the experiential level (patipatti, 'practice') > must be > > preceded by correct understanding at the intellectual level > (pariyatti). > > I would not see it as a trial and error kind of thing, > as 'exploration' > > seems to imply. > > > This is how I see it: > Knowing how to ride a bicycle is a kind of experiential knowledge > that is to be acquired through actually sitting on a bike trying. > And trial and error is part of the process of learning and mastering > the skill of riding a bicycle. Learning and progress involve trial > and error; i.e., trying different approaches to see if it works, > until one masters the skill. Another example is learning math. One > reads the textbook and listens to the teacher, and that is part of > learning process. However, a deep and thorough understanding/ > mastery of the subject matter or a skill comes from actually doing > it, i.e., by solving problems. That is one's experiential knowledge > about math. I have no argument with your description of the learning process, but I question its relevance to the present context. The Buddha never suggested that the development of the path was a matter of trial and error. It is significant that in the case of mindfulness of breathing, for example, the text makes clear that the person being described is a person who is already well skilled in that practice and is able to 'set mindfulness to the fore'. Only of such a person can it be said that 'mindful he breathes in' etc. As far as I'm aware, there is no instance in the texts of the Buddha recommending a 'practice' in the 'trial and error' sense of any kind. Jon 34554 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Nori I think Victor has already given some useful comments on this, but I would like to add a word or two. --- nori wrote: > Hi John & Victor, ... > So what do you think ?: > > Is it not the case that if you found a place 'pleasant', that one is > already at that point 'taking pleasure' or 'participating in carnal > indulgence' in those sense door experiences, and likewise if that > one found a place 'unpleasant' then is he not already at that moment > reacting with aversion to that sense door experience ? It is clear from the suttas and the abhidhamma that the moment of 'taking pleasure' in a sense-door object is a different moment to the (earlier) moment of experiencing the object through the sense-door. The moments of experiencing the object through the sense-door are moments of vipaka citta (result of past kamma), while the moments of 'taking pleasure' in a sense-door object are moments of akusala citta (unwholesome consciousness). At the earlier moment of vipaka citta, the object is already pleasant or unpleasant in nature. Of course, this distinction is not readily apparent to us, as we have not developed the panna that allows these different kinds of consciusness to be seen as they are. > Is it not akusala (unwholesome) already at the moment one > has 'aversion' or 'liking', which results in 'pleasant' > or 'unpleasant' feeling ? Yes, but the object is by nature pleasant or unpleasant at the earlier moment of being experienced by the sense-door consciousness (vipaka citta). > For if there were no 'aversion' or 'liking' to sense door > experiences then nothing would be pleasant or 'unpleasant' there > would only exist neutral feeling for those sense-door experiences. Not so, as I understand it. The pleasantness or unpleasantness of the object is independent of the liking of or aversion to the object. > Does not 'pleasant' experience, already at that moment of feeling - > 'this is pleasant' result in inevitable attachment, and craving > resulting in suffering when it is not present ? If there is craving it will be accompanied by pleasant feeling. But craving is not an inevitable response to a pleasant object. Sometimes the citta can be kusala, in which case there will be pleasant object but no craving. Jon 34555 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:33am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Hi, Bhinnatta --- Sujjhana Bhinnatta wrote: > Hello Jon, .. > B: The significance of these references as a teaching tool is not what > is in > question. Faith in the Buddha as a teacher and master of skillful > (kusala) > means, leaves no doubt as to the necessity and centrality of these terms > and > concepts. A teaching tool? That's a bold statement :-)). Are you saying there is an underlying meaning that is not fully disclosed by the Buddha but that becomes apparent to those who are able to see through the superficial presentation? ... > I apologize for this long winded response. To answer your question, the > significance I see in these references, whether in the suttas or the > abhidhamma, lies in their use by the human facilities of conception, > analysis, and language -- the very factors that keep us bound to samsara > -- > to build a boat that will carry us to the shore of the unconditioned. > The > suttas build a boat out of our ordinary ideas of the world, humans, > animals, > devas, suffering, stress, hatred, greed, and meditation. The boat is > made of > wholesome views, skillfull practices, and moral behavior. The abhidhamma > builds its boat by removing these concepts from their context, stripping > them of any personal or absolute status and then describing how these > seemingly unrelated elements/events interact, condition, and depend on > one > another in the creation of experience. Neither boat can be called > 'ultimate,' for to do so would be to bore a hole right through the > bottom of > the boat whereby it sinks into the bottomless ocean of suffering. > > *************************************************** > Jon:> Do you disagree with the view that these are the > > objects of insight the developoment of which leads eventually to > > enlightenment? > *************************************************** > > B: I'm not sure what you mean by 'objects of insight,' but I would > certainly > disagree with the view that the buddha set up some sort of over-arching > psychology, with a reductionist form of absolutism as its basis. Take > away > the absolutism...stop comparing the Dhamma to psychology...and drop the > metaphysical assertions, and then we're in business. In a later message you say that the Buddha taught that all things -- EVERYthing -- is characterised by anicca, dukkha and anatta. I don't think that is so. He taught the 3 characteristics in connection with 'conditioned dhammas' only -- the five aggregates, the sense basis, the elements, etc. Unless we appreciate the distinction between 'everything' and 'all conditioned dhammas', we will not appreciate the significance of the Buddha's message. Only conditioned dhammas have the characteristics of annica, dukkha and anatta, and are capable of being the object of insight. > To summarize, clinging to any concept as absolute, ultimate, or > unchanging > is one of the very types of wrong view the abhidhammikas were seeking to > uproot. I'll end by saying that none of the above, nor any of the > suttas, > commentaries or books are capable of ending suffering. Now you tell me, > what > is? Insight inot the true nature of conditioned dhammas is capable of ending suffering. This can only be learnt about initially from the teachings. Jon 34556 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Howard and all, Howard, thank you for sharing your thoughts. I quoted passages on what Abhidhamma is about and what metaphysics and ontology are about. Let me quote the passage from Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31 Simsapa Sutta The Simsapa Leaves http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-031.html regarding what the Buddha have taught: "And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I have taught them. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Victor (and Ken) - > > In a message dated 7/11/04 10:45:13 PM Eastern Daylight Time, > yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > > > > > Hi Ken H, > > > > Thank you for the message. So I believe you have also read the > > messages #34476 and #34477 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34476 > > http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34477 > > > > on what metaphysics and/or ontology are about. > > > > Metta, > > Victor > ============================ > I presume that your point is that metaphysics and ontology involve > questions which, according to the Buddha, are not useful in that don't conduce to > liberation, and should thus be avoided. In part of one article you quote the > following: "it [metaphysics] can be identified as the study of any of the most > fundamental concepts and beliefs about the basic nature of reality, on which > many other concepts and beliefs rest -- concepts such as being, existence, > universal, property, relation, causation, space, time, event, and many others." > It does occur to me, though, that it is a matter of degree and of > specific content as to what "metaphysics" the Buddha rules out as not useful. Are > not the tilakkhana in the category of "basic nature of reality", and do they > not involve "property"? Does not paticcasamuppada involve both "relation" and > "causation"? And does not anicca involve all of "being", "existence", "time", > and "event"? I agree that the Buddha trains one to *look and see directly* > observing that the nature of things is as he taught rather than to memorize and > contemplate loads of conceptual details, and that the purpose of the Dhamma is > not intellectual gratification but liberation. But might not it be an > overstatement to say that no metaphysics whatsoever (whether phenomenalist or > existentialist or whatever) is involved with the Dhamma? > > With metta, > Howard 34557 From: Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/12/04 11:53:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > ... > >=========================== > > Again, there may indeed be no advantage at all even if the theory > >that > >non-neutral vedana issues forth only from contact with bodily sensation, > >but > >I still tend to think there *is* an advantage. When there is heightened > >attention directed towards bodily sensation, given that such sensation > >is the source > >of non-neutral vedana and that attention is "focussed" at that very > >point, > >vedanupassana would tend to arise as well. Moreover, inasmuch, according > >to the > >same theory, as mindstate frequently produces bodily sensation, > >attention to > >bodily sensation makes it easier to pick up on the closely preceding and > >causative mindstate. Thus it would seem that should the theory be true, > >a big "if" > >of course, then mindfulness of bodily sensation may also tend towards > >mindfulness of the second and third foundations of mindfulness, and when > >these three > >reach their pinnacle, then the fourth foundation of mindfulness > >(involving > >direct awareness of such things as the tilakkhana, the four noble truhs, > >and > >dependent origination) would come into play... > > I feel there is a danger in such speculation (as I think you agree this > is) > --------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, agreed. ---------------------------------------- , in that it tends to lead us away from awareness of the presently> > arising dhamma. The reason I say this is that if we tend to the idea that > awareness of one particular kind of dhamma or another is particularly > advantageous, then there is likely to be the tendency to achieve awareness > of that particular dhamma to the exclusion of other dhammas. > ------------------------------------------- Howard: I get your point. The thing is, though, that when we don't attempt to restrict the range of our attention somewhat, when we don't limit our focus, our untrained mindulness doesn't seem to do all that well. So, using a single foundation of mindfulness as "central" may be of some help. That is my personal experience. ----------------------------------------- > > I find no support in the texts for making this kind of directed effort. > Suttas such as the Satipatthana Sutta discuss the importance of awareness > of all dhammas, without distinction. > -------------------------------------- Howard: I believe that this sutta allows for several alternate interpretations. I do agree that it does not emphasize one foundation over another, but it can be read as calling for conscious direction of attention. For example, the following suggests such direction to me (though I know it does not to you): << And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? [1] "There is the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of a tree, or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding his body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the chest]. Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "Breathing in long, he discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he discerns that he is breathing out long. Or breathing in short, he discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short. He trains himself to breathe in sensitive to the entire body and to breathe out sensitive to the entire body. He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. Just as a skilled turner or his apprentice, when making a long turn, discerns that he is making a long turn, or when making a short turn discerns that he is making a short turn; in the same way the monk, when breathing in long, discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out short, he discerns that he is breathing out short... He trains himself to breathe in calming bodily fabrication, and to breathe out calming bodily fabrication. >> ----------------------------------------------- > > >... Again, this is all > >hypothesizing, Jon, > >and I agree that there is nowhere in any sutta that I have read any of > >this > >addressed. All that I have noticed is the close relatioj in the suttas > >between > >sensation and vedana, and the great emphasis placed on mindfulness of > >the body, which is suggestive, but nothing more. > > I agree that mindfulness of the body is praised by the Buddha, but it is > not alone in that regard. > > (I'm puzzled by your reference here to 'the close relation in the suttas > between [bodily?] sensation and vedana'; grateful if you could elaborate > on this. Thanks.) > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't have a ready reference, Jon. Sorry. That is my impression. However, it may be influenced by the fact that 'vedana' is sometimes translated as 'sensation', and it may also be influenced by Goenka's conflating of physical sensations with feelings. --------------------------------------------- > > Jon ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34558 From: Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 7:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Victor - In a message dated 7/12/04 12:42:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, yu_zhonghao@y... writes: > Hi Howard and all, > > Howard, thank you for sharing your thoughts. > > I quoted passages on what Abhidhamma is about and what metaphysics > and ontology are about. > > Let me quote the passage from > Samyutta Nikaya LVI.31 > Simsapa Sutta > The Simsapa Leaves > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn56-031.html > regarding what the Buddha have taught: > > > "And what have I taught? 'This is stress... This is the origination > of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the path of > practice leading to the cessation of stress': This is what I have > taught. And why have I taught these things? Because they are > connected with the goal, relate to the rudiments of the holy life, > and lead to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to calm, to > direct knowledge, to self-awakening, to Unbinding. This is why I > have taught them. > > > Metta, > Victor ========================== It is my opinion as well that some of what is to be found in Abhidhamma lies among the leaves not held in the Buddha's hand. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34559 From: icaro franca Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 0:30pm Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Jon! > (I'm puzzled by your reference here to 'the close > relation in the suttas > between [bodily?] sensation and vedana'; grateful if > you could elaborate > on this. Thanks.) ------------------------------------------------------ Taking hand of the own Dependent Origination chain, we see that Nama-Rupa/ Upatti-Bhava compound gives birth to ayatana: six bases (five grounded on body organs and the last on mind) that have five causes: avijja kamma-bhava samskharas tanha upadana bhava So, the six bases, through phassa or contact, get a close relation to vedana, despite the fact that phassa has other causes. In other words, while ayatana has a crooked chain of causes, phassa has a quite linear way to get it, which includes ayatana on the road. corrections are welcome! mettaya, ícaro ===== 34560 From: Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 10:04am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi again, Jon - Nyanaponika Thera reports the following information at the ATI address http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel303.html#place: "The feeling that arises from contact with visual forms, sounds, odors, and tastes is always a neutral feeling. Pleasant or unpleasant feelings do not always follow in relation to these four sense perceptions; but when they follow, they are then an additional stage of the perceptual process, subsequent to the neutral feeling which is the first response. But bodily impressions (touch, pressure, etc.) can cause either pleasant or unpleasant feelings. Mental impressions can cause gladness, sadness or neutral (indifferent) feeling." This presumably is in line with Abhidhamma, and it shows that my theory is not too far off base. It states that non-neutral vedana arises only from body-door contact and mind-door contact. Actually, I suspect, though I have no Suttic or Abhidhammic evidence for it, that the vedana due to mind-door contact is indirect, being mediated by body-door contact. For example, when we remember something or imagine something or dream something that makes us happy or sad, it seems to me that the thought first generates bodily sensations that are felt as pleasant or unpleasant, and these, in turn, produce gladness or sadness, or are so interpreted. Grief is felt (by the mind) in the body. Joy is felt (by the mind) in the body. Jon, I readily admit, however, the possibility of my being wrong in this idea of body-door contact (bodily sensation) mediating between mind-door contact and resulting non-neutral feeling. That mediation is the way matters seem to me to be, but perhaps the facts are that mind-door contact directly yields a non-neutral feeling in the form of "happy" or "sad", and that feeling leads to a rapid series of mental constructs (such as moments of craving and a stream of thoughts) that produce *subsequent* pleasant or unpleasant bodily sensations - so that the bodily sensations that seem to precede the feelings of gladness or sadness actually follow these feelings. In any case, mind door feelings aside, pleasant and unpleasant feelings directly arise only due to experience of bodily sensations, not to visual, auditory, olfactory, or gustatory contacts. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34561 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 2:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi Jon and all, As I see it, the Buddha's quest to nibbana involved trial and error. He first practiced in the doctrine & discipline of Alara Kalama. However, after successfully mastering Alara Kalama's doctrine & discipline, the Bodhisatta realized: But the thought occurred to me, 'This Dhamma leads not to disenchantment, to dispassion, to cessation, to stilling, to direct knowledge, to Awakening, nor to Unbinding (nibbana), but only to reappearance in the dimension of nothingness.' So, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, the Bodhisatta left. He then went to Uddaka Ramaputta and practiced in Uddaka Ramaputta's doctrine & discipline. Again, after successfully mastering Uddaka Ramaputta's doctrine & discipline, the Bodhisatta had the same realization as above. So, again, dissatisfied with that Dhamma, he left. The Bodhisatta then practiced extreme austerities in the forest, and that practice did not lead to Awakening either. In short, in his quest to the Awakening, the Bodhisatta tried different paths that did not work before he found the way to the Awakening. I see that as trial and error. The path of practice leading to the cessation of dukkha has been made known by the Buddha so one does not have to go through all the routes that the Buddha had tried. Nevertheless, even this path itself is to be put into practice to see if it works. Furthermore, within the scope of the path, the practice itself still involves trial and error. Take right speech for example. One might engage in wrong speech in a particular occasion and notice that unskillful qualities arise and skillful qualities decrease. He or she learns from that experience and makes an effort to maintain right speech when the same occasion arises. He or she might try couple times to know what to say and how to say it. The fact is, one faces different problems in the course of his or her practice, for example, drowsiness.[1] Trial and error is a method to find the solution. And through trial and error, one gains the experiential knowledge on what works and what does not work. Metta, Victor [1] Regarding the problem of drowsiness, here is a link to the discourse in which the Buddha taught the solution to Moggallana. Anguttara Nikaya VII.58 Capala Sutta Nodding http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an07-058.html --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Victor > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > Hi Jon and all, > ... > > > Understanding at the experiential level (patipatti, 'practice') > > must be > > > preceded by correct understanding at the intellectual level > > (pariyatti). > > > I would not see it as a trial and error kind of thing, > > as 'exploration' > > > seems to imply. > > > > > > This is how I see it: > > Knowing how to ride a bicycle is a kind of experiential knowledge > > that is to be acquired through actually sitting on a bike trying. > > And trial and error is part of the process of learning and mastering > > the skill of riding a bicycle. Learning and progress involve trial > > and error; i.e., trying different approaches to see if it works, > > until one masters the skill. Another example is learning math. One > > reads the textbook and listens to the teacher, and that is part of > > learning process. However, a deep and thorough understanding/ > > mastery of the subject matter or a skill comes from actually doing > > it, i.e., by solving problems. That is one's experiential knowledge > > about math. > > I have no argument with your description of the learning process, but I > question its relevance to the present context. The Buddha never suggested > that the development of the path was a matter of trial and error. It is > significant that in the case of mindfulness of breathing, for example, the > text makes clear that the person being described is a person who is > already well skilled in that practice and is able to 'set mindfulness to > the fore'. Only of such a person can it be said that 'mindful he breathes > in' etc. > > As far as I'm aware, there is no instance in the texts of the Buddha > recommending a 'practice' in the 'trial and error' sense of any kind. > > Jon 34562 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:05pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: [snip] > The following may be the quirkiest thing you've ever heard, but I > believe there is an enormous difference between hearing the Dhamma, and > reading a book. Unless what is read is heard, I just do not think it is > possible to hear the Dhamma when reading a book. [snip] > I believe the discrediting of the Dhamma started not long after the > Buddha's death, and it is intertwined with the development of that black > art known as writing. Reading/writing is the foundation for a profound > change in human consciousness. Literacy is a compounding of > conceptualization that goes way beyond speech. I think it is nigh on > impossible for a literate mind that feeds itself more literacy to see > clearly and directly the simple truths that the Buddha spoke. The > written dhamma produces no stream enterers. The mind that reads is just > too far removed from reality. (A little test - look at this post on your > screen and see if it is possible to *not* see meanings in the black and > white shapes - rest assured , there are none, but you see them anyway, > and you can't do a thing about it!!!) Herman You're messing with my mind, I just know it! (-: (-: Not long ago, I had to voraciously defend the integrity of oral traditions against your poisonous pen. And now look! I have to pick up my sword and shield and defend WRITTEN traditions as well! I better go off and have some more Weetbix first ... I'll also give some serious thought to the content of your post. You never know ... Keep smiling! Andrew PS speaking of written traditions, I'm glad to hear that Sarah and Jon have escaped the clutches of Moriarty (?Mara) at those falls in the mountains. 34563 From: Andrew Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:27pm Subject: Arupa consciousness Hello everyone This thought occurred to me last night when pondering on anatta and moving enough cats aside so that I could actually get into bed (it's winter here). (-: The sense of self that I experience is heavily bound up with "my" rupa. In the continuity (santana), I observe such paramattha dhammas as lobha arise followed often by verbal and bodily (ie rupa-based) action. Lobha arises in the arupa sphere too. There, it can only manifest as mental activity. Isn't that advantageous ie that it cannot continue to verbal and bodily kamma-forming action? I read an earlier post of Nina's indicating that the arupa sphere was disadvantageous because there is no possibility of wisdom distinguishing nama from rupa (as rupa is not present). Is the delusion of self weaker in the arupa sphere? Any thoughts welcome. Best wishes Andrew 34564 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:42pm Subject: Entity / was: some caution and non-advice --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Ken - > We're both right on this. Actually, one common meaning is, > indeed, "living being", but rather much in the sense of a truly > self-existent person or individual (a concept which we Buddhists > need deal gingerly with ;-), and the root source of the word is the > Latin "ens" referring to existence. Most > generally the word means a separate, self-existent, > independent "thing" Hi Howard, Thanks for the clarification. Now, which definition of entity belongs in the definition of anatta? Does anatta mean that dhammas are devoid of a living being or that they are devoid of a self- existent, independent thing? I can see how the former would apply, although of course, not having directly experienced a dhamma as anatta, I can only imagine what that experience would be like. One simile that comes to mind is of an ornithologist peering into a birds' nest, only to find it empty -- uninhabited. Another simile is of a person who inadvertently comes across a rotting corpse and is struck by the realisation; "There is no human being in this!" So it is the fact of being uninhabited that is the key, I think. That would mean that the second definition of is less applicable to anatta -- it is not especially significant that a dhamma might be devoid of an independent, inanimate thing. Would you agree? Ken H 34565 From: nori Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:43pm Subject: Basic thoughts on Sati (awareness), Samahdi (concentration) and Anapana hi all, This is the way I understand it. I will paste underneath the definition of Sati from the Pali Text Society Pali-English dictionary: Sati (p. 672) (f.) [Vedic smrti: see etym. under sarati2] memory, recognition, consciousness, D I.180; II.292; Miln 77--80; When Sati is present it has this charecteristic: whatever it experiences at that moment is retained into memory; it becomes experience. When one does not have Sati, things can be recieved by the senses and its associated conciousnesses (i.e. body, eye, ear, ... mind) however it is not 'experienced'; it is not retained into memory. Now this Sati/awareness can be in different states. Among the many characteristics: it can be dull and scattered ; or it can be sharp and focused (and typically it is divided amongst the sense doors-conciousnesses (i.e. body/touch, eye/vision, ear/sound, nose/smell, ... and mind)). Examples of scattered and focused Sati/mindfulness/Awareness: Lets say we are sitting in a room and there are lots of people talking. If we do not focus our awareness we would hear just an ocean of sounds. However, our awareness is directable, and concentrate-able so we can, by our will and intention, focus on a particular person, and a particular voice, and now when we do this, we can 'discern' that one voice, his words and then interpret what he is saying. Another example: You stop while driving for directions and while someone is telling you directions, somebody else in the car is talking to you. Now your awareness is split up between both people talking to you. It is more likely that since your awareness was divided, that you will not retain those directions; where as if you had focused your complete attention/awareness on the person giving you the directions, you would have had a more intense/distinct experience of it, and you would retain the experience better in this case. And so we can determine from the above examples that: The stronger your concentration/samahdi the stronger is your discernment of the experience, the more intense (your experience), and the stronger it is retained into your memory. That is - the more you 'know' of an experience. Now what Buddha suggests is that you develop your calm, persistence, and concentration of your awareness of ones mind like one develops muscles in weight training. From my experience I have witnessed that one can develop his ability of concentration beyond what is 'normally' capable for a typical mind. When Samahdi and a calm mind has been developed, one has strong discernment and very intense experiences, even for things that are subtle, and normally not detected. This assists one in investigating reality, and ones own true nature through keen observation and experience. Instead of taking in the experience of life, as one typically does, as a whole in its entirety of experience, one can methodically focus in onto particular objects of investigation (such as those suggested in the Maha Satipatthana Sutta), one at a time, for a more intense experience with a higher level of discernment. The method to develop concentration is many fold and depends on progress on the eightfold path, but another aspect of developing samahdi is to perform a specific meditation to develop samahdi, such as Anapana (breath meditation). I will describe how to perform Anapana meditation as taught by SN Goenka in a future post. with metta, nori --- Anguttara Nikaya XI.1 Kimattha Sutta What is the Purpose? I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying near Savatthi in Jeta's Grove, Anathapindika's monastery. Then Ven. Ananda went to the Blessed One and on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "What is the purpose of skillful virtues? What is their reward?" "Skillful virtues have freedom from remorse as their purpose, Ananda, and freedom from remorse as their reward." "And what is the purpose of freedom from remorse? What is its reward?" "Freedom from remorse has joy as its purpose, joy as its reward." "And what is the purpose of joy? What is its reward?" "Joy has rapture as its purpose, rapture as its reward." "And what is the purpose of rapture? What is its reward?" "Rapture has serenity as its purpose, serenity as its reward." "And what is the purpose of serenity? What is its reward?" "Serenity has pleasure as its purpose, pleasure as its reward." "And what is the purpose of pleasure? What is its reward?" "Pleasure has concentration as its purpose, concentration as its reward." "And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?" "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward." ... 34566 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 4:58pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Andrew, The mind is the most voracious and insatiable organ, yet it requires no sustenance at all. There's absolutely no need to feed it. No wonder it gets bloated and obese :-) If, while eating your Weetbix, you can refrain from reading the notes on the packet, you're doing allright :-) Have a great day Herman ========================= You're messing with my mind, I just know it! (-: (-: Not long ago, I had to voraciously defend the integrity of oral traditions against your poisonous pen. And now look! I have to pick up my sword and shield and defend WRITTEN traditions as well! I better go off and have some more Weetbix first ... I'll also give some serious thought to the content of your post. You never know ... Keep smiling! Andrew PS speaking of written traditions, I'm glad to hear that Sarah and Jon have escaped the clutches of Moriarty (?Mara) at those falls in the mountains. 34567 From: Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 1:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic thoughts on Sati (awareness), Samahdi (concentration) and Ana... In a message dated 7/12/04 4:45:54 PM Pacific Daylight Time, nori_public@a... writes: When Sati is present it has this charecteristic: whatever it experiences at that moment is retained into memory; it becomes experience. When one does not have Sati, things can be recieved by the senses and its associated conciousnesses (i.e. body, eye, ear, ... mind) however it is not 'experienced'; it is not retained into memory ==== all, I thought I would pass on that sati also means unchaste woman. jack 34568 From: Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Entity / was: some caution and non-advice Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/12/04 8:21:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > Thanks for the clarification. Now, which definition of entity > belongs in the definition of anatta? Does anatta mean that dhammas > are devoid of a living being or that they are devoid of a self- > existent, independent thing? > > I can see how the former would apply, although of course, not having > directly experienced a dhamma as anatta, I can only imagine what > that experience would be like. One simile that comes to mind is of > an ornithologist peering into a birds' nest, only to find it empty -- > uninhabited. > > Another simile is of a person who inadvertently comes across a > rotting corpse and is struck by the realisation; "There is no human > being in this!" > > So it is the fact of being uninhabited that is the key, I think. > That would mean that the second definition of is less applicable to > anatta -- it is not especially significant that a dhamma might be > devoid of an independent, inanimate thing. Would you agree? > > > Ken H > ============================ Nyanatiloka's dictionary gives the following: > The anattá doctrine teaches that neither within the bodily and mental > phenomena of existence, nor outside of them, can be found anything that in the > ultimate sense could be regarded as a self-existing real ego-entity, soul or any > other abiding substance. I think that's a fair formulation. When it is said that all dhammas are anattá, I take that to mean two things: Every phenomenon, conditioned or not, is a) impersonal i.e., neither an ego-entity nor belonging to an ego-entity, and b) without substantial core. In the case of conditioned phenomena, part b) is due to the phenomena not being self-existent, but arising due to the confluence of other (similarly empty) conditions. In the case of nibbana, its corelessness is due to its being a mere absence - in fact, the ultimate emptiness. The term 'entity' thus properly applies to no dhamma at all, as I pointed out in my previous post. There actually are no entities. Belief in entities is a form of atta-view, in my opinion. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34569 From: Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 3:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic thoughts on Sati (awareness), Samahdi (concentration) and Ana... Hi, Jack - In a message dated 7/12/04 9:32:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: > I thought I would pass on that sati also means unchaste woman. > ======================= Hah! I now see what *your* mind runs to! (It happens that it is 'asati' that means "unchaste woman"! The word 'sati' means "chaste woman". Perhaps you thought the meaning of 'sati' was "chased woman"? ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34570 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:08pm Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 85 - question Dear Nina, My question regards this [sort of...] --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Tiika Vis. XIV, 85, Pali > >> Tattha ~naa.nasampayuttaani cattaari yadaa tihetukapa.tisandhi.m uppaadenti, > In this case, when the four types of kusala citta that are accompanied by > wisdom produce rebirth with three roots, >> ***** > Nina. When patisandhi citta arises with pleasant feeling, and the bhavanga cittas of that life also have pleasant feeling arising, how does it - if it does at all - manifest? Could we expect that person to be an overall happy sort of person, or would it not manifest as anything? Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 34571 From: gazita2002 Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 8:44pm Subject: Re: Arupa consciousness Hello Andrew, I'll need a few of those cats when I arrive in August!!! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Andrew" wrote: > Hello everyone > > This thought occurred to me last night when pondering on anatta and > moving enough cats aside so that I could actually get into bed (it's > winter here). (-: > > The sense of self that I experience is heavily bound up with "my" > rupa. In the continuity (santana), I observe such paramattha dhammas > as lobha arise followed often by verbal and bodily (ie rupa-based) > action. > > Lobha arises in the arupa sphere too. There, it can only manifest as > mental activity. Isn't that advantageous ie that it cannot continue > to verbal and bodily kamma-forming action? I can see your point here, but the latent tendancies are still there [somewhere] and no matter how long a being is in that arupabrahma sphere, there will be an end to that existence and rebirth somewhere else, and then the conditions may be there again to go on 'developing' lobha. > I read an earlier post of Nina's indicating that the arupa sphere was > disadvantageous because there is no possibility of wisdom > distinguishing nama from rupa (as rupa is not present). > > Is the delusion of self weaker in the arupa sphere? Can't remember (-: ... but somehow I would think not, bec there is still nama and idea of self is nama, but then there is no rupa to 'add' to that idea??!! Interesting. > Any thoughts welcome. > > Best wishes > Andrew Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 34572 From: Robert Epstein Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:09pm Subject: [Hello, Herman! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Thanks for your post, Philip, Herman! how are you? I haven't been able to be here as much as I'd like, but very glad to see you coming around! How are you these days? I hope you are doing well... Best, Robert 34573 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 9:24pm Subject: Visuddhimagga, 87 Hi Larry, Could you please also post Vis. XIV, 87, it is fitting for me to take this together with 86. I make one short intro to the two of them. No 89 is short in the Vis and long in the Tiika. Nina. 34574 From: Date: Mon Jul 12, 2004 11:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic thoughts on Sati (awareness), Samahdi (concentration) and Ana... In a message dated 7/12/04 7:40:49 PM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: Hah! I now see what *your* mind runs to! (It happens that it is 'asati' that means "unchaste woman"! The word 'sati' means "chaste woman". Perhaps you thought the meaning of 'sati' was "chased woman"? ;-)) === Howard, your comments gave me a good laugh to start off the day. jack 34575 From: Gabriel Nunes Laera Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:12am Subject: Questions... Dearest Friends, Could you help me with a couple of questions? First) What would be the pali names and definitions of : 1) "I", 2) "conscience", 3)"soul", 4)"spirit", 5)"mind", I hope you can help me with that. Second) What are the perceptions fields that when perceived and taken as permanent and as one is generally called a self, embodied in a mind, speech and body? Third) When meditating I generally have the following experiences, each time in a different intensity and with a different impact: 1) The vision becomes black, and sometimes it alternates from on eye perception to another 2) The sound of "silence" becomes stronger 3) The perception of the hands become stronger and it seems I am getting bigger, a quite weird feeling 4)When I keep the meditation session longer than 15 min. I start feeling like if I was floating 5) I try to keep observing breath and when I do it all those happenings become stronger. 6) I keep my mind voices saying bud...(breathing in)dho...(breathing out) Well, I would like to know if these are negative signals, if so, could you recommend me a different meditation technique or some preliminar exercise? Thank you very much for the attention, Metta, Gabriel Laera 34576 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 8:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions... Hello Gabriel... Ignore all those things :) Keep meditating. When mindfullness is sufficiently strong, drop "Buddho" and keep to the breath only. When Buddho is dropped, switch instead to noting the differential length of the breaths. Good luck, Bill Gabriel Nunes Laera wrote: Dearest Friends, Could you help me with a couple of questions? First) What would be the pali names and definitions of : 1) "I", 2) "conscience", 3)"soul", 4)"spirit", 5)"mind", I hope you can help me with that. Second) What are the perceptions fields that when perceived and taken as permanent and as one is generally called a self, embodied in a mind, speech and body? Third) When meditating I generally have the following experiences, each time in a different intensity and with a different impact: 1) The vision becomes black, and sometimes it alternates from on eye perception to another 2) The sound of "silence" becomes stronger 3) The perception of the hands become stronger and it seems I am getting bigger, a quite weird feeling 4)When I keep the meditation session longer than 15 min. I start feeling like if I was floating 5) I try to keep observing breath and when I do it all those happenings become stronger. 6) I keep my mind voices saying bud...(breathing in)dho...(breathing out) Well, I would like to know if these are negative signals, if so, could you recommend me a different meditation technique or some preliminar exercise? Thank you very much for the attention, Metta, Gabriel Laera 34577 From: Gabriel Nunes Laera Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 9:56am Subject: Re: Questions... Dearest Bill, Thank you very much for your answer. Metta, Gabriel Laera 34578 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Tiika Vis. XIV, 85 - feeling with rebirth. Dear Azita, op 13-07-2004 05:08 schreef gazita2002 op gazita2002@y...: > > When patisandhi citta arises with pleasant feeling, and the > bhavanga cittas of that life also have pleasant feeling arising, how > does it - if it does at all - manifest? Could we expect that person > to be an overall happy sort of person, or would it not manifest as > anything? N: I read in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Topics of Abhidhamma, p. 14), where it refers to happiness accompanying lobha-muulacitta: The opposite is indicated for the causes of equanimity. We have to discern though the jaatis of kusala, akusala, vipaaka and kiriya. We cannot speculate, but from this text it appears that there is some influence, thus, the feeling accompanying bhavangacittas in our life is one of the conditions. We have to be careful in making general statements. Bhavanga cittas can be object of insight, but the question is, who can be aware of them. It is not easy. Nina. 34579 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 10:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa consciousness Hi Andrew, op 13-07-2004 00:27 schreef Andrew op athel60@t... > > Lobha arises in the arupa sphere too. There, it can only manifest as > mental activity. Isn't that advantageous ie that it cannot continue > to verbal and bodily kamma-forming action? N: In the arupa brahma planes there is still clinging, one can cling to the calm of jhana or to that plane. But as Azita says, when one falls from that existence, one may be reborn in a sense plane and have lobha on and on for the sense objects. A: I read an earlier post of Nina's indicating that the arupa sphere was > disadvantageous because there is no possibility of wisdom > distinguishing nama from rupa (as rupa is not present). N: I would not call arupajhana disadvantageous, it is kusala of a high degree. But it is only a temporal subduing of defilements. When someone as a result of arupajhana is reborn in an arupabrahma plane he cannot become a sotapanna there. The person who develops insight has to know the difference between nama and rupa, realize their conditions, see their arising and falling away and further develop all stages of insight. Also, in that plane there is no hearing, one cannot have Dhamma discussions there. A: Is the delusion of self weaker in the arupa sphere? N: In those planes there are also ariyans who have developed insight already and eradicated the delusion of self. Whether the delusion of self is eradicated or not does not depend on the development of jhana nor on the plane where one lives that is the result of jhana, but only on the development of insight. But now we are here in the human plane and we are able to hear the Dhamma. There are sense impressions and akusala cittas arising on account of the sense objects. When they have arisen already it shows that there are conditions for them, but we can develop understanding of them as not mine. I just heard on MP3 that A. Sujin asks Kom to speak about the sutta on the blind turtle in the sea that comes to the surface once in a hundred years, and that has to poke its neck through a hole in a yoke, but more difficult it is to be born a human. I discussed this here with Kom long ago. This sutta is a reminder, it is not spoken to make us afraid. We can be reminded that human birth is precious and that we should not waste opportunities to listen to the Dhamma. A. Sujin speaks about the Middle Way, saying that this is not merely a name. It means that in the development of satipatthana we do not cling to specific objects we select nor do we reject objects that are unwellcome. We do not worry about past objects that have already gone, nor do we think of future objects. Understanding of any reality appearing now should be developed so that it can be known as just dhamma, nama or rupa, nothing else. Nina. 34580 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 11:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions... Hello Again Gabrielle.. My 'free advice" re: to 'ignore all those things' was only in relation to your third question, not the first two. Those first two are good questions, too--I just didn't address them... :) Bill Bill Saint-Onge wrote: Hello Gabriel... Ignore all those things :) Keep meditating. When mindfullness is sufficiently strong, drop "Buddho" and keep to the breath only. When Buddho is dropped, switch instead to noting the differential length of the breaths. Good luck, Bill Gabriel Nunes Laera wrote: Dearest Friends, Could you help me with a couple of questions? First) What would be the pali names and definitions of : 1) "I", 2) "conscience", 3)"soul", 4)"spirit", 5)"mind", I hope you can help me with that. Second) What are the perceptions fields that when perceived and taken as permanent and as one is generally called a self, embodied in a mind, speech and body? Third) When meditating I generally have the following experiences, each time in a different intensity and with a different impact: 1) The vision becomes black, and sometimes it alternates from on eye perception to another 2) The sound of "silence" becomes stronger 3) The perception of the hands become stronger and it seems I am getting bigger, a quite weird feeling 4)When I keep the meditation session longer than 15 min. I start feeling like if I was floating 5) I try to keep observing breath and when I do it all those happenings become stronger. 6) I keep my mind voices saying bud...(breathing in)dho...(breathing out) Well, I would like to know if these are negative signals, if so, could you recommend me a different meditation technique or some preliminar exercise? Thank you very much for the attention, Metta, Gabriel Laera 34581 From: icarofranca Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 0:32pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions... Hi Bill! > Hello Again Gabrielle.. >--------------------------------------------------------------------- Er... How could I say it...? My comrade Gabriel - if there's a good practitioner on lamaism surely is Gabriel - is brazillian and is a man! Not Gabrielle for sure! ( it's the same to say that Toronto has its name because of the indian partner of the masked man!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro 34582 From: christine_forsyth Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 1:37pm Subject: Re: Questions... Hello Gabriel, Icaro, Bill, all The Buddha analyses the cognitive processes of the four types of individuals - the untaught ordinary person, the disciple in higher training, the arahant, and the Tathaagata - in the Muulapariyaaya Sutta 'The Root of All Things', the first sutta of the Majjhima Nikaya. It is one of the deepest and most difficult suttas inthe Pali Canon. For a fuller treatment of this important and difficult sutta, see Bhikkhu Bodhi, 'Discourse on the Root of Existence.' This work contains, besides a translation of the sutta, a lengthy analytical study of its philosophical significance and copious extracts from the very helful commentarial literature that has accumulated around it. In the four sections the phenomena comprising personality are considered as objects of perception classified into the four categories of the seen, heard, sensed, and cognized. Here, sensed (muta) signifies the data of smell, taste, and touch, cognized (vinnata) the data of introspection, abstract thought, and imagination. The objects of perception are "conceived" when they are cognized in terms of "mine," "i," and "self," or in ways that generate craving, conceit, and views. (Bodhi) You may find this English-Pali dictionary helpful: Have fun looking up your Pali words here: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-ep/ Pali-English dictionaries: http://www.saigon.com/~anson/ebud/dict-pe/index.htm http://dsal.uchicago.edu/dictionaries/pali/ 'Pali is an inflectional language. Unlike in English, where the role that a noun plays in a sentence will be indicated by additional words (e.g. to, from, in, because of, by etc.), in Pali a noun's role and connection with the rest of the sentence is shown by changing its ending.'(Bhikkhu Dhammanando in a post on DL). metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Gabriel Nunes Laera" wrote: > Dearest Friends, > > Could you help me with a couple of questions? > > First) What would be the pali names and definitions of : > > 1) "I", > 2) "conscience", > 3)"soul", > 4)"spirit", > 5)"mind", > > I hope you can help me with that. > > Second) What are the perceptions fields that when perceived and taken > as > permanent and as one is generally called a self, embodied in a mind, > speech > and body? > > Third) When meditating I generally have the following experiences, > each time > in a different intensity and with a different impact: > > 1) The vision becomes black, and sometimes it alternates from on eye > perception to another > 2) The sound of "silence" becomes stronger > 3) The perception of the hands become stronger and it seems I am > getting > bigger, a quite weird feeling > 4)When I keep the meditation session longer than 15 min. I start > feeling > like if I was floating > 5) I try to keep observing breath and when I do it all those > happenings > become stronger. > 6) I keep my mind voices saying bud...(breathing in)dho... (breathing > out) > > Well, I would like to know if these are negative signals, if so, > could you recommend me a different meditation technique or some > preliminar exercise? > > Thank you very much for the attention, > > Metta, > > Gabriel Laera 34583 From: Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 3:44pm Subject: Vism.XIV 87 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 87. I.C. That of the 'immaterial sphere' is fourfold by association with the four immaterial states; for (14) the first is associated with the jhana of the base consisting of boundless space in the way aforesaid, while (15)-(17) the second, third, and fourth, are [respectively] associated with those of the base consisting of boundless consciousness, and so on. 34584 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Questions... Hi Gabriel, I hope the answer below is of some use to you. ================================================= Dearest Friends, Could you help me with a couple of questions? Third) When meditating I generally have the following experiences, each time in a different intensity and with a different impact: 1) The vision becomes black, and sometimes it alternates from on eye perception to another 2) The sound of "silence" becomes stronger 3) The perception of the hands become stronger and it seems I am getting bigger, a quite weird feeling 4)When I keep the meditation session longer than 15 min. I start feeling like if I was floating 5) I try to keep observing breath and when I do it all those happenings become stronger. 6) I keep my mind voices saying bud...(breathing in)dho...(breathing out) Well, I would like to know if these are negative signals, if so, could you recommend me a different meditation technique or some preliminar exercise? =================================================== H > The experiences you describe show that the mind is loosing some of the frames of reference it is so used to building on. What you are describing is much like the feeling when you are seated in a train standing still next to another one, and the other train starts to move, it feels like you are the one that is moving. These are not negative signals. They allow you to see how reality is built up of many interdependent facets to create a whole perception. As long as you don't go looking for particular sensations or experiences, you will be fine. Just be aware of whatever comes and goes. Catch you later Herman 34585 From: Herman Hofman Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 4:14pm Subject: RE: [dsg] [Hello, Herman! Good to hear from you, Robert!!! For a while I thought you'd dropped off the face of the earth. Nice to see you've returned again. Things are excellent. We have successfully managed to not have any more kids since last time we wrote :-) Seriously, if there was something or someone to be grateful to, we'd be grateful. But seeing as there's not, we're just very content. What's been a-happening I your neck of the woods? All the best Herman -----Original Message----- From: Robert Epstein [mailto:epsteinrob@Y...] Sent: Tuesday, 13 July 2004 2:10 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] [Hello, Herman! --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Herman Hofman" wrote: > Thanks for your post, Philip, Herman! how are you? I haven't been able to be here as much as I'd like, but very glad to see you coming around! How are you these days? I hope you are doing well... Best, Robert 34586 From: Andrew Date: Tue Jul 13, 2004 6:37pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa consciousness Dear Nina and Azita Thank you very much for your clarifying thoughts and the wonderful reminder about the turtle simile. I also like this below:- > A. Sujin speaks about the Middle Way, saying that this is not merely a name. > It means that in the development of satipatthana we do not cling to specific > objects we select nor do we reject objects that are unwellcome. We do not > worry about past objects that have already gone, nor do we think of future > objects. Understanding of any reality appearing now should be developed so > that it can be known as just dhamma, nama or rupa, nothing else. > Nina. It is entirely consistent with the anatta doctrine that there be some nama-only planes. As I cling to rupa so much, I find it hard to imagine a "being" without rupa. Which tells me that I haven't yet fully grasped anatta! Thanks again Andrew 34587 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] what I heard Hi, Nina --- nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Jon, > I listened to MP 3. A. Sujin asked you in India: do you have possessions > (sombat), and you were somewhat surprised. She then explained; when in > deep > sleep you have no possessions, you do not even have a name. No object is > appearing through the senses, we do not know anything, not even our > name. > Also when seeing now you only experience colour and own not any > possessions, > you do not think of them. Seeing arises only for a moment then it falls > away. We cling the whole day but we do not own anything. Thanks for mentioning this discussion. I found it a very useful reminder at the time, and again now. (I remember the occasion, because I misunderstood the Thai expression when the question was first put to me, and I didn't quite know how to answer!). Likewise, it is sometimes apparent when awaking from a deep sleep that all the issues good and bad that normally occupy us when awake have not been issues for that period; they are just creations of the mind. Very refreshing. Jon PS Today, our last full day in Meiringan, we had our first clear weather. We made the most of it by taking the cable car to the hightest point around here and doing a long walk along to another point across the slopes. We leave here early tomorrow morning (Thursday) but our flight is not until late Thursday night, arriving Hong Kong on Friday evening, about 28 hours after checking out from here. 34588 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:12am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > > The tax is still not finished, but then tax is never finished :-) > > I think there is a parallel between what I mean with quietness/mental > silence and awareness free from sensuality and discursive and evaluative > thought. As I understand the teachings, awareness is the wholesome quality that equates to right attention, at which time there is no attachment or other unwholesome quality. It is awareness that brings the freedom from sensuality you mention here (hence the focus in our discussions on the development of awareness). > With regards to the abhidhamma, I'd have to read it before I could > really comment on what it teaches. From what I have read in secondary > and tertiary sources, the abhidhamma does not lend itself to easy > reading or understanding. > > To me the suttas teach the end of suffering, through renunciation of > attachment to anything you care to mention. The suttas lend themselves > to understanding. Something understood does not need to be remembered. A > principle understood can be applied. The endless chain of words of the > abhidhamma must be remembered until they are understood. If they are not > understood they cascade around the skull. To the extent these > incomprehensible words become objects of awareness again and again they > are an affliction and prevent any progress towards the end of suffering > whatsoever. I think what you describe here is a subjective reaction and very much a personal opinion. I don't see anything in what you say here that differentiates the abhidhamma from the suttas, in the sense of use of the written/spoken word to convey fundamental truths. I know the abhidhamma doesn't appeal to everyone, but I urge you not to reject it outright! It took me some years to really appreciate its true value. Jon 34589 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Nori --- nori wrote: > Hi Victor, Jon and all, > > I have discovered that it is possible through exertion of ones > will/intention to objectively experience sensations, without > reacting with the pleasure which is normally derived from it. > > For example (and you can try this) when eating food which one finds > pleasing, it is possible through ones own volition to experience > only the sensations which are derived from eating this food (the > texture, temperature, taste, etc.), and not react with the pleasure > which would normally follow ("mmmmm, this tastes good, ahhhhhh"); > one can, by ones own volition/intention/will suspend this reaction > of ?ereceiving?f or 'taking' the pleasure which is derived from it. I think what you describe here is a kind of 'forcing', or suppression of the normal akusala reaction and its replacement by another form of akusala. This of course has nothing to do with the development of insight. Insight (panna/vipassana) has to do with understanding the true nature of conditioned dhammas, for example, understanding nama as nama, rupa as rupa. > From our previous discussion, we have determined that certain 'Forms > cognizable via the eye, ...sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas > cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... > tactile sensations cognizable via the body' are inherently ?e-- > agreeable, pleasing, > charming?f. > > So then what do think is good practice (as proclaimed by Gotama > Buddha) when we encounter these things: > > Do we: a) Allow the natural reaction of pleasure to follow through > without indulging further or b) exert our will and intention to > objectively experience the senses without reacting ? Neither of these 2 options would be my idea of practice in accordance with the dhamma. It is much more subtle and complex than this. We should not be too eager to see an immediate reduction in 'taking pleasure' or other forms of akusala, as this will distract us from the path of developing insight into the true nature of the presently arising dhamma. My views, anyway ;-)) Jon 34590 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:32am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - ... > -------------------------------------- > Howard: > I believe that [the Satipatthana Sutta] allows for several alternate > interpretations. I do agree that it does not emphasize one foundation > over another, but it > can be read as calling for conscious direction of attention. For > example, the > following suggests such direction to me (though I know it does not to > you): << > And how does a monk remain focused on the body in & of itself? [1] > "There is > the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of > a tree, > or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding > his > body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the > chest]. > Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "Breathing in > long, he > discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he > discerns > that he is breathing out long. ¨... I know you don't want to get into a debate on this, but I really don't understand what you see in this passage that suggests a direction by the Buddha to emphasise one 'foundation' over another. > > (I'm puzzled by your reference here to 'the close relation in the > suttas > > between [bodily?] sensation and vedana'; grateful if you could > elaborate > > on this. Thanks.) > > > --------------------------------------------- > Howard: > I don't have a ready reference, Jon. Sorry. That is my > impression. > However, it may be influenced by the fact that 'vedana' is sometimes > translated > as 'sensation', and it may also be influenced by Goenka's conflating of > physical sensations with feelings. > --------------------------------------------- Actually I wasn't expecting a reference but something in your own words explaining the relationship as you saw it. Jon 34591 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi again, Howard Howard: Nyanaponika Thera reports the following information at the ATI address http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/wheels/wheel303.html#place: "The feeling that arises from contact with visual forms, sounds, odors, and tastes is always a neutral feeling. Pleasant or unpleasant feelings do not always follow in relation to these four sense perceptions; but when they follow, they are then an additional stage of the perceptual process, subsequent to the neutral feeling which is the first response. But bodily impressions (touch, pressure, etc.) can cause either pleasant or unpleasant feelings. Mental impressions can cause gladness, sadness or neutral (indifferent) feeling." This presumably is in line with Abhidhamma, and it shows that my theory is not too far off base. It states that non-neutral vedana arises only from body-door contact and mind-door contact. Jon: I believe the Abhidhamma explanation, and the one intended by Ven Nyanaponika, is that the vipaka citta that experiences sense-door objects is always accompanied by neutral feeling. This is followed in due course by kusala or akusala cittas that ‘run through’ the object, and the feeling that accompanies these cittas may be pleasant, unpleasant or neutral, depending on the nature and strength of the kusala or akusala. I don't know if this puts the passage in a different light as far as your hypothesis is concerned. Jon 34592 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 8:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Icaro Thanks for coming in here! --- icaro franca wrote: > Taking hand of the own Dependent Origination chain, > we see that Nama-Rupa/ Upatti-Bhava compound gives > birth to ayatana: six bases (five grounded on body > organs and the last on mind) that have five causes: > avijja kamma-bhava > samskharas > tanha > upadana > bhava > So, the six bases, through phassa or contact, get > a close relation to vedana, despite the fact that > phassa has other causes. I'm not too familiar with DO, and as I don't have my texts with me I'll have to take your word for this ;-)). However, in terms of the original comments on this subject, I think the relationships explained in DO are not things to be focussed upon as an aspect of 'practice', but are relationships that become aparent through the development of understanding, gradually and in due time. > In other words, while ayatana has a crooked chain > of causes, phassa has a quite linear way to get it, > which includes ayatana on the road. A graphic description. No doubt Howard, as a kindred mathematical soul, will appreciate this reference ;-)) Jon 34593 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi, Victor Thanks for your comments here, which as usual are factually correct and supported by good references. However, I don't think there is any suggestion in the texts that the development of the path involves some kind of practice on a trial and error basis. The whole idea seems to run contrary to the very exact description of cause and result given in the teachings. In terms of carrying out a practice, 'error' must mean wrong view, and wrong view is of the nature to prevent one seeing things for what they are (including the wrong view itself). Jon --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon and all, > > As I see it, the Buddha's quest to nibbana involved trial and > error. > > He first practiced in the doctrine & discipline of Alara Kalama. > However, after successfully mastering Alara Kalama's doctrine & > discipline, the Bodhisatta realized: ... > In short, in his quest to the Awakening, the Bodhisatta tried > different paths that did not work before he found the way to the > Awakening. I see that as trial and error. 34594 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:29am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions... LOL---sorry about that. With my French background, I should have been more attentive to the e/no e situation, and how that changes gender---it happens all the time with first names in French as well... Many apologies... Bille icarofranca wrote: Hi Bill! > Hello Again Gabrielle.. >--------------------------------------------------------------------- Er... How could I say it...? My comrade Gabriel - if there's a good practitioner on lamaism surely is Gabriel - is brazillian and is a man! Not Gabrielle for sure! ( it's the same to say that Toronto has its name because of the indian partner of the masked man!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro 34595 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:54am Subject: Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Nori and all, If it's through exertion of one's will/intention to objectively experiencing sensation such that he or she becomes dispassionate and disenchanted with that sensation, then I think that is a good practice. By natural reaction of pleasure I suppose it means passion and greed to sensual pleasures. I think it is not a good practice to let the passion and greed to sensual pleasure to follow through. I think that letting it to follow through IS indulging. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi Victor, Jon and all, > > I have discovered that it is possible through exertion of ones > will/intention to objectively experience sensations, without > reacting with the pleasure which is normally derived from it. > > For example (and you can try this) when eating food which one finds > pleasing, it is possible through ones own volition to experience > only the sensations which are derived from eating this food (the > texture, temperature, taste, etc.), and not react with the pleasure > which would normally follow ("mmmmm, this tastes good, ahhhhhh"); > one can, by ones own volition/intention/will suspend this reaction > of ?ereceiving?f or 'taking' the pleasure which is derived from it. > > From our previous discussion, we have determined that certain 'Forms > cognizable via the eye, ...sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas > cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... > tactile sensations cognizable via the body' are inherently ?e-- > agreeable, pleasing, > charming?f. > > So then what do think is good practice (as proclaimed by Gotama > Buddha) when we encounter these things: > > Do we: a) Allow the natural reaction of pleasure to follow through > without indulging further or b) exert our will and intention to > objectively experience the senses without reacting ? > > metta, > nori 34596 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa consciousness Dear Andrew, Reflecting on rupajhana and arupajhana, I find that we can see how perfectly kamma conditions vipaka. The person who develops jhana must be very sincere, it must be his true accumulation to be free from sense impressions, his life style should be like a monk's. One should not see jhana as a shortcut, an easy way to develop insight, nor as a kind of escape from daily life. As you say, We humans cling to rupa, and it fits our kamma to be here in the human plane. It is perfectly in accordance with kamma. I hear all the time on MP3 that we should see that everything is dhamma. We can repeat this and think of these words, but it can become really meaningful. Whatever experience we have here in the human plane is already conditioned, it is just dhamma, why try to change it? We should not wish for another situation and another reality, we should be contented with what is here now. We can learn to see dhamma as dhamma. A. Sujin stressed that the indriyas, faculties, of confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration and pañña should become stronger, otherwise the four noble Truths cannot be realized. When satipatthana is being developed, confidence also becomes stronger. When akusala dhamma appears, we should be brave and be aware of it. That means that there is confidence and energy together with pañña. By listening again and again we understand more deeply that what appears now is just dhamma that we cannot change it. op 14-07-2004 03:37 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: > Thank you very much for your clarifying thoughts and the wonderful > reminder about the turtle simile.... > It is entirely consistent with the anatta doctrine that there be some > nama-only planes. As I cling to rupa so much, I find it hard to > imagine a "being" without rupa. Which tells me that I haven't yet > fully grasped anatta! 34597 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions... Dear Icaro, I was glad to hear on the Pali list that you plan to meet Sarah, Jon and others in Bgk next January. I regret it that I will not be there, we plan to go next year beginning Oct. How wonderful that dsg friends can meet now and then. You discussed with Jim how to find more time for reading. Larry and others may like to know that both his operations were satisfactory, he is waiting for spectacles. As Jim answered, the interest can be nurtured. Yes, it comes by conditions. When things you read here on the list become more meaningful you just will find time to go deeper into matters, even while having your morning coffee. The flavour of coffee can be combined with the flavour of Dhamma, but there is nothing like the flavour of Dhamma. I will break out into poetry under your influence! A friend of the Pali list, Rett, helps out with Pali questions while drinking his morning coffee. You will find that Visuddhimagga becomes more interesting, I hope. I shall think especially of you when we get to Vis. XIV, 90 and 91, the lobha-muulacittas, that you typed out for me before by accident!! It is never wasted !!! I also use Warder for Pali and think it most useful and interesting, having nice pieces for reading already at Ch 18. Many on Pali list use it. If you get stuck do ask, many people on the Pali list will help, I also try to help. Watch out for Bhante Yuttadhammo, he makes trilineair sutta translations, also today, it can help you. I repeat Jim's wish: Success with your Dhamma study, Nina. op 13-07-2004 21:32 schreef icarofranca op icarofranca@y...: >> Hello Again Gabrielle.. > >> --------------------------------------------------------------------- > Er... How could I say it...? > My comrade Gabriel - if there's a good practitioner on lamaism > surely is Gabriel - is brazillian and is a man! 34598 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 10:11am Subject: Intro Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Texts: Vis. 86: The consciousness of the 'fine-material sphere' is fivefold, being classed according to association with the jhana factors. That is to say, (9) the first is associated with applied thought, sustained thought, happiness, bliss, and concentration, (10) the second leaves out applied thought from that, (11) the third leaves out sustained thought from that, (12) the fourth makes happiness fade away from that, (13) the fifth is associated with equanimity and concentration, bliss having subsided. Vis. 87: That of the 'immaterial sphere' is fourfold by association with the four immaterial states; for (14) the first is associated with the jhana of the base consisting of boundless space in the way aforesaid, while (15)-(17) the second, third, and fourth, are [respectively] associated with those of the base consisting of boundless consciousness, and so on. Intro Vis. XIV, 86, 87: ***************** Intro to Vis. XIV, 86, 87: In the section on the khandha of consciousness, vi~n~naa.nakkhandha, the Visuddhimagga deals with kusala cittas of the four planes of citta. There are four planes of citta: citta of the sense sphere or kaamaavacaaracitta, ruupaavacara citta (ruupa-jhaanacitta), aruupaavacaaracitta (aruupa-jhaanacitta) and supramundane citta or lokuttara citta. The Tiika summarizes the essence of ruupa jhaana which is not as coarse as the citta of the sense sphere, but less refined as aruupa jhaana-citta, and which, unlike the lokuttara magga-citta, cannot eradicate defilements. The Tiika states: Kaamaavacara citta is involved with sense impressions. On account of eyesense and visible object seeing arises; on account of earsense and sound hearing arises; on account of the other pairs connected with sensory impingement the other sense-cognitions arise. The person who develops jhaana sees the disadvantages of being involved with sense impressions and the defilements bound up with them. He has sincerity and determination to fulfill all the different conditions necessary for the attainment of jhaana. At the moment of jhaana-citta there is no experience of sense objects and the hindrances of covetousness, aversion, etc. do not arise. Kusala kamma of the level of ruupa-jhaana, immaterial jhaana, can lead to rebirth in ruupa-brahma planes where there are less sense impressions. There are no nose, tongue, body or sexuality in those planes. Only seeing, hearing, and the experience of mental objects occur. Neither are there groups of ruupa produced by nutrition (Commentary to the Abhidhamattha Sangaha, T.A. p. 251). However, the development of ruupa-jhaana is dependent on a physical base (vatthu), and that means that the meditation subject is still bound up with ruupa. One has to look at the earth kasina or coloured kasina, for example, until one has a mental image of it. Whereas the meditation subjects of aruupa-jhaana are not bound up with ruupa. The Tiika states about ruupajhaana: . The intoxicants, aasavas, are: the intoxicant of greed of sense desire; the intoxicant of birth, the greed that desires birth in ruupa brahma planes and aruupa brahma planes. Greed for jhaana and greed accompanied by eternalism are included in this intoxicant (T. A. p. 259). The intoxicant of wrong view includes sixtytwo kinds of wrong view. The intoxicant of ignorance is ignorance of the four noble Truths and the Dependent Origination. The jhaanas are with intoxicants (saasava), they proceed along with the intoxicants and can be objects of intoxicants. One may, for example, cling to the jhaanas and the result of the jhaanas. All dhammas, except lokuttara dhammas can be an object of clinging. The Expositor (I, p. 64) states: Jhaanacitta, not even the highest stage of aruupajhaana, can lead to the end of the cycle of birth and death. Only the maggacitta can eradicate the intoxicants and it leads to the end of rebirth. Aaruupa-jhaana is more refined than ruupa-jhaana. We read in the Commentary to the Abhidammattha Sangaha (Ch3, p114): “In the formless world none of the six bases are found because there is no occurrence of materiality there at all as a result of the strength of formless beings¹ cultivation of dispassion for it.² The development of the meditation subjects of aruupa-jhaana is not dependent on any base (vatthu). The perceptions of ruupa are completely surmounted with the meditation subjects of Boundless Space, Boundless Consciousness, etc. The result of aruupa-jhaana is rebirth in the aruupa-brahma planes, where there is no ruupa and no sense impressions at all. Through the development of jhaana clinging to sense objects is temporarily subdued, and only through the development of vipassanaa clinging can be completely eradicated. The non-returner, anaagaamii, who has attained the third stage of enlightenment has eradicated clinging to sense objects. We can learn from the study of ruupa-jhaana and aruupa-jhaana that each kamma produces its appropriate result. Kamma-condition is anattaa, it is beyond control. We are born humans, and this is the result of kaamaavacara kusala kamma. Kaamaavacaara cittas are involved with the sense objects and on account of these clinging arises. On account of the sense objects akusala cittas arise time and again. When they have arisen already it shows that there are conditions for them, but we can develop understanding of them as not ³mine² or belonging to a self. We should remember that clinging to sense objects is conditioned, that it is anattaa. Through the development of vipassana we learn that whatever appears is only naama or ruupa. Visible object appears through the eyes, and when there can be awareness of it we can learn that it is only a conditioned dhamma. Also clinging to sense objects is a conditioned dhamma and it can and should be the object of right understanding. First the wrong view of self has to be eradicated and finally all other defilements can be eradicated. Renunciation from all defilements is true renunciation. **** Nina. 34599 From: icaro franca Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 0:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions... Hi Nina! > Dear Icaro, > I was glad to hear on the Pali list that you plan to > meet Sarah, Jon and > others in Bgk next January. >------------------------------------------------------ I've bought some travel books on thai language - Lonely Planet series and Berlitz. It seems to me that thai is a language more easy to speak up than to read and write. Gosh!!! The Thai Alphabet is huge and awesome!!! Nevertheless, my vacancies will be at January! ------------------------------------------------------ > When things you read here on the list become more > meaningful you just will > find time to go deeper into matters, even while > having your morning coffee. > The flavour of coffee can be combined with the > flavour of Dhamma, but there > is nothing like the flavour of Dhamma. I will break > out into poetry under > your influence! A friend of the Pali list, Rett, > helps out with Pali > questions while drinking his morning coffee. ------------------------------------------------------- It's a good exercise keeping such recollections of ideas coming together at daily life: it's a technique used also on Kaballah, with the tree of life and so on. One of Visuddhimagga's aspects I love so much is Buddhaghosa's good will to classificate all kinds of meditations and mindfullness techniques ( chapters 3,4 and 5 mainly) and many of my former doubts about The Jhanas and meditation techniques are now entirely solved up: I've picked up the air kasina Jhana easily, with good insights! May Buddha keep Buddhaghosa always in good grace!!!! ------------------------------------------------------- > You will find that Visuddhimagga becomes more > interesting, I hope. I shall > think especially of you when we get to Vis. XIV, 90 > and 91, the > lobha-muulacittas, that you typed out for me before > by accident!! It is > never wasted !!! ------------------------------------------------------- My own notes about the matter were a bit messed up... now they are all organized in my Palm Top, and the consults are more easy and accurate. I am reading all The Visuddhimagga and when I reach the Chapter XIV, about the aggregates, I will post my viewpoints about it! ------------------------------------------------------ > I also use Warder for Pali and think it most useful > and interesting, having > nice pieces for reading already at Ch 18. Many on > Pali list use it. If you > get stuck do ask, many people on the Pali list will > help, I also try to > help. Watch out for Bhante Yuttadhammo, he makes > trilineair sutta > translations, also today, it can help you. ------------------------------------------------------ Gooda! Durosseile's is sometimes too much a scholar for me, and Narada thera's elementar Pali Course is sometimes so much "Elementar" for my needs at Dhammasangani Tiikas, for example ( they are very complicated to read sometimes!!!). ------------------------------------------------------ > I repeat Jim's wish: Pali studies.> > Success with your Dhamma study, ------------------------------------------------------- Pali language and our noble company of fearless dhamma fellows are an everlasting interest for me, Nina! keep Boostin'!!! Mettaya, Ícaro ===== 34600 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 0:54pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi Jon and all, One probably won't find in the discourses in which the Buddha specifically said to use the method of trial and error in practice. However, the fact is that in the course of one's practice, he or she faces different problems/difficulties. There are different methods to find a solution/solve a problem, and trial and error is one of them: Humans use not only trial and error but also insight based on an understanding of principles, inductive and deductive reasoning (see deduction; induction; and logic), and divergent or creative thinking (see creativity). Problem-solving abilities and styles may vary considerably by individual. http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=401247&query=problem% 20solving&ct= For example, one might try different ways to overcome drowsiness before he or she finds a way that works. But let's go back to the original point from which this discussion on trial and error started: "it takes practice and exploration to develop experiential understanding regarding sati, sampajañña and atappa." The word "explore" means 1 a : to investigate, study, or analyze : look into -- sometimes used with indirect questions b : to become familiar with by testing or experimenting http://www.webster.com/ Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Victor > > Thanks for your comments here, which as usual are factually correct and > supported by good references. > > However, I don't think there is any suggestion in the texts that the > development of the path involves some kind of practice on a trial and > error basis. The whole idea seems to run contrary to the very exact > description of cause and result given in the teachings. > > In terms of carrying out a practice, 'error' must mean wrong view, and > wrong view is of the nature to prevent one seeing things for what they are > (including the wrong view itself). > > Jon > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon and all, > > > > As I see it, the Buddha's quest to nibbana involved trial and > > error. > > > > He first practiced in the doctrine & discipline of Alara Kalama. > > However, after successfully mastering Alara Kalama's doctrine & > > discipline, the Bodhisatta realized: > ... > > In short, in his quest to the Awakening, the Bodhisatta tried > > different paths that did not work before he found the way to the > > Awakening. I see that as trial and error. 34601 From: Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon (and Nori) - In a message dated 7/14/04 11:29:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi, Nori > > --- nori wrote: >Hi Victor, Jon and all, > > > >I have discovered that it is possible through exertion of ones > >will/intention to objectively experience sensations, without > >reacting with the pleasure which is normally derived from it. > > > >For example (and you can try this) when eating food which one finds > >pleasing, it is possible through ones own volition to experience > >only the sensations which are derived from eating this food (the > >texture, temperature, taste, etc.), and not react with the pleasure > >which would normally follow ("mmmmm, this tastes good, ahhhhhh"); > >one can, by ones own volition/intention/will suspend this reaction > >of ?ereceiving?f or 'taking' the pleasure which is derived from it. > > I think what you describe here is a kind of 'forcing', or suppression of > the normal akusala reaction and its replacement by another form of > akusala. This of course has nothing to do with the development of > insight. Insight (panna/vipassana) has to do with understanding the true > nature of conditioned dhammas, for example, understanding nama as nama, > rupa as rupa. > > >From our previous discussion, we have determined that certain 'Forms > >cognizable via the eye, ...sounds cognizable via the ear... aromas > >cognizable via the nose... flavors cognizable via the tongue... > >tactile sensations cognizable via the body' are inherently ?e-- > >agreeable, pleasing, > >charming?f. > > > >So then what do think is good practice (as proclaimed by Gotama > >Buddha) when we encounter these things: > > > >Do we: a) Allow the natural reaction of pleasure to follow through > >without indulging further or b) exert our will and intention to > >objectively experience the senses without reacting ? > > Neither of these 2 options would be my idea of practice in accordance with > the dhamma. It is much more subtle and complex than this. We should not > be too eager to see an immediate reduction in 'taking pleasure' or other > forms of akusala, as this will distract us from the path of developing > insight into the true nature of the presently arising dhamma. > > My views, anyway ;-)) > > Jon > ========================== Hey, Jon - I *agree* with you!! ;-)) Generally, though this need not be the case for Nori, what Nori describes sounds like suppression. Of course, there can be times, with some people, that reactions (of craving or aversion) do not result from pleasant or unpleasant vedana, and this increasingly so depending on "development". But, in general, one cannot will non-reaction, but can merely suppress reaction (or our awareness of it), or quickly turn the mind away from the object that may lead to it. What is good to do, I think, is to attend carefully to whatever arises, as much as possible, and as clearly as possible. This bhavana will, together with other practice, cultivate the mind, increasing mindfulness and moments of insight, and tend to make the mind less reactive in the long run. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34602 From: Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 11:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/14/04 11:33:08 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, Jon - > ... > >-------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I believe that [the Satipatthana Sutta] allows for several > alternate > >interpretations. I do agree that it does not emphasize one foundation > >over another, but it > >can be read as calling for conscious direction of attention. For > >example, the > >following suggests such direction to me (though I know it does not to > >you): << > >And how does a monk remain focused on the body in &of itself? [1] > >"There is > >the case where a monk -- having gone to the wilderness, to the shade of > >a tree, > >or to an empty building -- sits down folding his legs crosswise, holding > >his > >body erect and setting mindfulness to the fore [lit: the front of the > >chest]. > >Always mindful, he breathes in; mindful he breathes out. "Breathing in > >long, he > >discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, he > >discerns > >that he is breathing out long. ¨... > > I know you don't want to get into a debate on this, but I really don't > understand what you see in this passage that suggests a direction by the > Buddha to emphasise one 'foundation' over another. ------------------------------------------------ Howard: That's not what I said, Jon. Please reread the material of mine that you quoted above. I said that (1) I *agree* that this sutta does not emphasize one foundation over another, but (2) The sutta *can* be read as as calling for conscious direction of attention, a separate matter for us to disagree on! ;-)) I did *not* claim that there is anything to see in this passage that suggests a direction by the Buddha to emphasise one 'foundation' over another. In fact, I admitted (please see (1) above) that the sutta does *not* suggest such. ------------------------------------------------- > > >>(I'm puzzled by your reference here to 'the close relation in the > >suttas > >>between [bodily?] sensation and vedana'; grateful if you could > >elaborate > >>on this. Thanks.) > >> > >--------------------------------------------- > >Howard: > > I don't have a ready reference, Jon. Sorry. That is my > >impression. > >However, it may be influenced by the fact that 'vedana' is sometimes > >translated > > >as 'sensation', and it may also be influenced by Goenka's conflating of > >physical sensations with feelings. > >--------------------------------------------- > > Actually I wasn't expecting a reference but something in your own words > explaining the relationship as you saw it. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: Frankly, it's based mainly on my own experience. Whenever I find something pleasant or unplesant, and look more closely, I seem to find an underlying pleasant or unpleasant bodily sensation. I was wrong in attributing the realtionship to material in the suttas. ------------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ========================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34603 From: Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:02pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Questions... Nina: "You discussed with Jim how to find more time for reading. Larry and others may like to know that both his operations were satisfactory," Hi Nina, That's good news. I hope he is able to rejoin us before his winter hibernation. Larry 34604 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:16pm Subject: RE: [dsg] what I heard Hi Jon, I am intrigued. ============================================== Likewise, it is sometimes apparent when awaking from a deep sleep that all the issues good and bad that normally occupy us when awake have not been issues for that period; they are just creations of the mind. Very refreshing. ============================================== You acknowledge some value in deep sleep when upon awakening there is the realisation that there was no I, there was no mine. Cannot this same valuable insight arise after deep meditation? You will probably reply with "Well, the decision to meditate is based in self-view, so what follows can't be any good either". To which I would probably reply "Next time you decide to go to bed, see if there is any self-view in that" I wish you and Sarah a safe trip back home. Herman 34605 From: Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 4:24pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Intro Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Hi Nina, I wonder what kind of intention motivates jhana. What makes it evolve from one jhana to another? Also, I wonder how the object is maintained without applied thought and sustained thought. The object is a concept so this seems like a thought to me. Are jhana cittas only javana or is the whole citta process jhana cittas? Larry 34606 From: Philip Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 5:06pm Subject: Got in a fight but all is right ( was Re: Arupa consciousness Hello Nina, and all Not off to Canada quite yet. Still studying hard - received my Manual of Abhidhamma and it is wonderful reading it along with a reread of ADL. And am reading the Samyutta Nikaya sections on khandas, feelings and dependent origination, along with the Path to Freedom suttas kindly linked by Victor. This morning,I responded strongly to the following passage from Nina: N: > When satipatthana is being developed, > confidence also becomes stronger. When akusala dhamma appears, we should be > brave and be aware of it. That means that there is confidence and energy > together with pañña. By listening again and again we understand more deeply > that what appears now is just dhamma that we cannot change it. Yesterday when I was biking on a very hot day to go shopping I had one of my little run-ins with another cyclist who got in my way and I shouted an obscenity (by Japanese standards) at him as well as kind of ramming his back wheel with my bike. Petit road rage! As you may remember, these temper outbursts have been a problem with me. This is the first time this has happened this year. Now, in the past I would have thought "oh dear...my streak is broken...now I have to start from scratch." But yesterday I took it as a reminder that these things are not in my control and fretting about it is just a hindrance. Seeing through to this lack of control may lead to more equanimity, which will make it less likely that it will happen again soon. May. Who knows? I felt brave about facing up to the uncertainty of life and confident that the Buddha's teaching will continue to lead me in a more wholesome direction, ever so gradually over many, many lifetimes. Metta, Phil 34607 From: kenhowardau Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 7:01pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Herman, You asked: ------------------------ > Could you or someone else please provide a link to the suttas where the associating with the wise etc is referred to as pariyatti? ------------------------ I've had a look for suttas that list the factors leading to enlightenment (associating with the wise etc). They are quoted quite frequently on dsg, but I don't know if they use the word pariyatti. Anyway, I haven't found them yet – too disorganised. ----------------------- H: > The more I study about the books which make up the Theravadin tradition, the more I see a chasm between the Nikayas and what has followed them. > ------------------------- Apart from your distrust for the written word (I think Andrew has said what needed to be said there :-) ), can you be a little more specific about this "chasm?" Kind regards, Ken H 34608 From: buddhaward Date: Wed Jul 14, 2004 9:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa consciousness Dear Nina I am a korean buddhist in Japan. Sometimes I enjoy visiting this group though I do not know well about Abhidhamma. Let me ask you some questions. > One should not see jhana as a shortcut, an > easy way to develop insight, nor as a kind of escape from daily life. What do you think Buddha's intentions were behind when Bhuddha seemed to exhort his deciples to develop Jhanas as in suttas? > say, without rupa. > We humans cling to rupa, and it fits our kamma to be here in > the human plane. It is perfectly in accordance with kamma. > I hear all the time on MP3 that we should see that everything is dhamma. We > can repeat this and think of these words, but it can become really > meaningful. Whatever experience we have here in the human plane is already > conditioned, it is just dhamma, why try to change it? We should not wish for > another situation and another reality, we should be contented with what is > here now. We can learn to see dhamma as dhamma. > A. Sujin stressed that the indriyas, faculties, of confidence, energy, > mindfulness, concentration and pañña should become stronger, otherwise the > four noble Truths cannot be realized. When satipatthana is being developed, > confidence also becomes stronger. When akusala dhamma appears, we should be > brave and be aware of it. That means that there is confidence and energy > together with pañña. By listening again and again we understand more deeply > that what appears now is just dhamma that we cannot change it. Is such an intention itself to develop the indriyas, faculties, of confidence, energy,mindfulness, concentration and pañña derived from our "wish for another situation and another reality" ? And Could you please explain how do you think we should develop them ? thank you with metta from kk 34609 From: Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:19am Subject: Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi, all - A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the cycle of dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly how and where kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. I believe that kamma is related to paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, the sankhara phase, and the bhava phase. It occurs to me that the sankhara phase, the phase of impulsion, amounts to "conception"/sowing of kammic seeds, and that the bhava phase amounts to "gestation"/reaping of kammic seeds. Maintaining the fetus symbolism, upadana is a requisite condition for bhava just as attachment of fetus to womb is needed in order for gestation to occur and subsequent birth of "new self" to follow. From this perspective, moment by moment, mental acts of avijja-conditioned cetana (i.e., kamma) constitute the planting of kammic seeds that only commence ripening in the bhava phase when needed conditions including attachment are in place. So, the cycle of dependent origination as a samsaric process repeated millions of times in a moment within the mind could be viewed as follows: Ignorance -> Kammic Sowing -> Subjectivity <-> Objectivity -> Sense-Door Conduits (Sankhara) -> Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> Kammic Reaping (Bhava) -> Birth (of renewed Ignorance) -> Death and Decay [and the whole mass of suffering] (Jara-marana) Thoughts anyone? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34610 From: Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 1:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi again, all - Sorry that my diagram got out-of-skew in the mailing. I'll try to rewrite it here in a way that that will not happen. With metta, Howard Ignorance Kammic Sowing (Sankhara) Subjectivity Objectivity Sense-Door Conduits Contact Feeling Craving Clinging Kammic Reaping (Bhava) Birth (of renewed Ignorance, restarting the cycle at the top) Death and Decay [and the whole mass of suffering] /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34611 From: Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:09am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi again - In the new formulation of the DP diagram, I provided a down arrow from each link to the one below it (with a double-headed one between subjectivity and objectivity), but Yahoo erased these, because I cut and pasted them from MS Word, and Yahoo interpreted them as "pictures" that required removal. Sorry about that! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34612 From: Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma In a message dated 7/15/04 5:20:31 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the cycle of dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly how and where kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. I believe that kamma is related to paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, the sankhara phase, and the bhava phase. ===== Howard, I see the relationship between kamma and DO slightly different but not in opposition to what you stated. In the Cycle of DO, kamma (as well as other factors) determines all links up and through vedana. The links after vedana are under our conscious control. In any event in my life I find it important to identify those aspects under my control and those not. This have been my "light bulb" realization. Jack 34613 From: icaro franca Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:20am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi Howard! > I believe > that kamma is related to > paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, > the sankhara phase, and the > bhava phase. It occurs to me that the sankhara > phase, the phase of impulsion, > amounts to "conception"/sowing of kammic seeds, and > that the bhava phase amounts > to "gestation"/reaping of kammic seeds. >------------------------------------------------------>- As a matter of fact, Kamma could be called kamma-Bhava, because its a continuous process: beginning with the first link of the chain - avijjapaccaya samkhara - and the second - sankhara-Paccaya-niññanam, that are sankharas produced directly by Kamma, till Bhava-Paccaya jati, where the process of becoming due to Kamma grows to full, Kamma has a direct analogy ( as you have said it) with the nurturing and growing of phoetus inside his/her mother. And after such events we get jati-paccaya jaramaranam - the birth of a child itself and Decay and Death, with the whole mass of suffering again and again in the future - I don't remember where I have gathered up this passage of D.O. on NET, but it seems to be the same you took up!!! Hah!!! ------------------------------------------------------ Maintaining > the fetus symbolism, > upadana is a requisite condition for bhava just as > attachment of fetus to womb is > needed in order for gestation to occur and > subsequent birth of "new self" to > follow. From this perspective, moment by moment, > mental acts of > avijja-conditioned cetana (i.e., kamma) constitute > the planting of kammic seeds that only > commence ripening in the bhava phase when needed > conditions including attachment > are in place. ------------------------------------------------------- Howard, sowing a a seed and reapening the friut are , in my opinion, not so good as simile as the own phoetus process to becoming a full child. Sowing and reapening are distinct acts of cetana, and the phoetus'life inside his/her mother is a flow of events more alike Buddha's description.It seems to me that Buddha, when begin his first sermons on theravadin tradition with the Four Noble Truths, the three main characteristics and the twelve-links Dependent Origination chain, had this picture on mind - if any one of us can be able to justify Buddha's mind! the rest are O.K., Howard! Mettaya, Ícaro ------------------------------------------------------ > So, the cycle of dependent origination as a > samsaric process repeated > millions of times in a moment within the mind could > be viewed as follows: > > Ignorance -> Kammic Sowing -> Subjectivity <-> > Objectivity -> Sense-Door > Conduits > (Sankhara) > > -> Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> > Kammic Reaping > > > (Bhava) > > -> Birth (of renewed Ignorance) -> Death and Decay > [and the whole mass of > suffering] > > (Jara-marana) > > Thoughts anyone? > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A > star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, > a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond > Sutra) > > ===== 34614 From: robmoult Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:39am Subject: Re: Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi Howard, I'm wrapping some stuff up before a long vacation, so I'm less active on DSG of late. This post caught my interest. A month or so ago, I gave a lengthy post going through each of the 11 links of dependent origination, identifying which of the 24 conditions were in play for each link. As you may know, kamma (more specifically asynchronous kamma, which is what I think you are reffering to) is one of the 24 conditions. Kamma plays a role in the second link (conditioned by formations, consciousness arises) of DO. You can see Vism XVII 177-180 for details, but in summary, at the time of rebirth, cetana in one of the 8 kusala cittas condition one of the 8 mahavipaka cittas (as bhavanga for non-disabled people) or one of the 8 kusala cittas condition the kusala vipaka investigating citta with indifferent feeling (as bhavanga for disabled people) through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. During existence, cetana in the 8 kusala cittas condition 8 rootless kusala vipaka cittas through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. During existence, cetana in the 12 akusala cittas condition 7 rootless akusala vipaka cittas through asynchronous kamma condition and natural decisive support condition. Asynchronous kamma condition does not play a role in any of the other links within DO. However, let us look more closely at the 9th and 10th link. The 9th link is, "conditioned by clinging, becoming arises". You can refer to Vism XVII 269 for details. According to the Abhidhamma, "becoming" (bhava) in this case is actually the combination of kamma process (kamma-bhava) + rebirth process (upapatti-bhava). Kamma process is cetana and lobha etc. concomitant with it. The 10th link is, "conditioned by becoming, birth arises". In this case, "becoming" is kamma-bhava without upapatti-bhava. Hope this helps. Metta, Rob M :-) --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the cycle of > dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly how and where > kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. I believe that kamma is related to > paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, the sankhara phase, and the > bhava phase. It occurs to me that the sankhara phase, the phase of impulsion, > amounts to "conception"/sowing of kammic seeds, and that the bhava phase amounts > to "gestation"/reaping of kammic seeds. Maintaining the fetus symbolism, > upadana is a requisite condition for bhava just as attachment of fetus to womb is > needed in order for gestation to occur and subsequent birth of "new self" to > follow. From this perspective, moment by moment, mental acts of > avijja-conditioned cetana (i.e., kamma) constitute the planting of kammic seeds that only > commence ripening in the bhava phase when needed conditions including attachment > are in place. > So, the cycle of dependent origination as a samsaric process repeated > millions of times in a moment within the mind could be viewed as follows: > > Ignorance -> Kammic Sowing -> Subjectivity <-> Objectivity -> Sense- Door > Conduits > (Sankhara) > > -> Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> Kammic Reaping > > (Bhava) > > -> Birth (of renewed Ignorance) -> Death and Decay [and the whole mass of > suffering] > (Jara-marana) > > Thoughts anyone? > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > > > 34615 From: yu_zhonghao Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:09am Subject: Re: Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi Howard and all, I think that fabrications/sankhara are actions/kamma and vice versa. And craving/tanha and clinging/sustenance/upadana are fabrications/sankhara. Becoming/bhava is result of fabrications/sankhara: The realm where one is to be born depends on one's actions, and consciousness is re-established in that realm upon death. With that determined, birth takes place, in which feeling, perception, attention, contact, body, and the six-sense bases come to be. Aging takes place after birth. In the course of one's life, because of ignorance, one's various fabrications/sankhara, or, actions/kamma, in terms of craving and clinging/sustenance again condition where one is to be reborn upon death. Thus another round of rebirth. Metta, Victor --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the cycle of > dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly how and where > kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. I believe that kamma is related to > paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, the sankhara phase, and the > bhava phase. It occurs to me that the sankhara phase, the phase of impulsion, > amounts to "conception"/sowing of kammic seeds, and that the bhava phase amounts > to "gestation"/reaping of kammic seeds. Maintaining the fetus symbolism, > upadana is a requisite condition for bhava just as attachment of fetus to womb is > needed in order for gestation to occur and subsequent birth of "new self" to > follow. From this perspective, moment by moment, mental acts of > avijja-conditioned cetana (i.e., kamma) constitute the planting of kammic seeds that only > commence ripening in the bhava phase when needed conditions including attachment > are in place. > So, the cycle of dependent origination as a samsaric process repeated > millions of times in a moment within the mind could be viewed as follows: > > Ignorance -> Kammic Sowing -> Subjectivity <-> Objectivity -> Sense-Door > Conduits > (Sankhara) > > -> Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> Kammic Reaping > > (Bhava) > > -> Birth (of renewed Ignorance) -> Death and Decay [and the whole mass of > suffering] > (Jara-marana) > > Thoughts anyone? > > With metta, > Howard 34616 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:51am Subject: Re: Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi RobMoult! > Asynchronous kamma condition does not play a role in any of the >other > links within DO. However, let us look more closely at the 9th and > 10th link. ---------------------------------------------------------------------- E-XACT !!!! (hiphenized!!!) Asynchronous Kamma acts directly only at 2nd link of D.O. and at the tenth: at the 1st it is almost as an attachment allowing avijja to starts the samsara wheel. Howard coined up his analogy with sowing and reaping due this fact...however kamma-bhava is a continuous flow of events. --------------------------------------------------------------------- > The 10th link is, "conditioned by becoming, birth arises". In this > case, "becoming" is kamma-bhava without upapatti-bhava. --------------------------------------------------------------------- i.e., a direct action out of Kamma or Kamma-Bhava. Mettaya, Ícaro > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > > Hi, all - > > > > A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the > cycle of > > dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly > how and where > > kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. I believe that kamma is > related to > > paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, the sankhara > phase, and the > > bhava phase. It occurs to me that the sankhara phase, the phase of > impulsion, > > amounts to "conception"/sowing of kammic seeds, and that the bhava > phase amounts > > to "gestation"/reaping of kammic seeds. Maintaining the fetus > symbolism, > > upadana is a requisite condition for bhava just as attachment of > fetus to womb is > > needed in order for gestation to occur and subsequent birth of "new > self" to > > follow. From this perspective, moment by moment, mental acts of > > avijja-conditioned cetana (i.e., kamma) constitute the planting of > kammic seeds that only > > commence ripening in the bhava phase when needed conditions > including attachment > > are in place. > > So, the cycle of dependent origination as a samsaric process > repeated > > millions of times in a moment within the mind could be viewed as > follows: > > > > Ignorance -> Kammic Sowing -> Subjectivity <-> Objectivity -> Sense- > Door > > Conduits > > (Sankhara) > > > > -> Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> Kammic Reaping > > > > > (Bhava) > > > > -> Birth (of renewed Ignorance) -> Death and Decay [and the whole > mass of > > suffering] > > (Jara-marana) > > > > Thoughts anyone? > > > > With metta, > > Howard 34617 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Hello Philip, I appreciate it that you study so much. op 15-07-2004 02:06 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: > > N: > When satipatthana is being developed, >> confidence also becomes stronger. When akusala dhamma appears, we > should be >> brave and be aware of it. That means that there is confidence and > energy >> together with pañña. By listening again and again we understand > more deeply >> that what appears now is just dhamma that we cannot change it. As you may > remember, these temper outbursts have been a problem with me. ... yesterday I took it as a reminder that these > things are not in my control and fretting about it is just a > hindrance. Seeing through to this lack of control may lead to more > equanimity, which will make it less likely that it will happen again > soon. N: Lodewijk and I discussed before that people may also take it the wrong way: O, just conditions, just accumulations, who cares. You did not take it that way, but perhaps I should add a few words lest others have misunderstandings. I partly repeat what I said before. We all have accumulations that we are not jubilant about. Of course. They are so stubborn, like weeds, but they have to be pulled out. And worry about them is again aversion. Good to realize them as conditioned namas. Conceit plays a big role in whatever we do. My important person, how dare he do this to me. Or: how can I behave so ugly, that can also be conceit. We have to consider the citta, there can also be wholesome shame. When there is more confidence we see more the disadvantage of akusala and the benefit of kusala. Satipatthana helps very much in this. We see that it is also necessary to develop the Brahmaviharas in our relationship with others. It is what A. Sujin says, I heard it this morning: We should not forget the Brahmaviharas, I learnt that from you. It is a good idea to say to the other cyclist (but perhaps you did) that you are sorry, or to make amends. To treat him as your friend, even when he was wrong. Friend cyclist! When driving we do not mind when others pass us very fast or do strange things. Just let them. I appreciated it that Bhante Samahita gave us texts on the untrained mind; there is nothing more intractible then the untrained mind. As I mentioned, Lodewijk was so impressed by this text. He said, it is like being hammered on the head. And how can the mind be trained? By satipatthana. The guarding of the six doors, sila, is included in it. Nina. 34618 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:14am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 86, 87, Pali Vis. 86. ruupaavacara.m pana jhaana"ngayogabhedato pa~ncavidha.m hoti. seyyathida.m. vitakkavicaarapiitisukhasamaadhiyutta.m pa.thama.m, atikkantavitakka.m dutiya.m, tato atikkantavicaara.m tatiya.m, tato virattapiitika.m catuttha.m, attha"ngatasukha.m upekkhaasamaadhiyutta.m pa~ncamanti. Tiika 86. Ruupaavacara.m panaati pana-saddo visesatthajotako. As to the expression ³however the consciousness of the fine-material sphere², the word , (meaning here) ³however², explains the distinction. Tena yathaa kaamaavacara.m kilesaana.m tada"ngappahaanamattakara.m, na evamida.m, ida.m pana vikkhambhanappahaanakara.m. Consciousness of the sense sphere overcomes defilements just by substitution of their opposites, however, this is not so with the fine-material consciousness, this overcomes them by repression. Yathaa vaa ta.m vedanaa~naa.nasa"nkhaarabhedato a.t.thadhaa bhijjati, na evamida.m, ida.m pana tato a~n~nathaa vaati vakkhamaana.m visesa.m joteti. Or, consciousness of the sense sphere is classified as eightfold, according to feeling, wisdom, being prompted, however, this is not so (in the case of consciousness of the fine-material sphere); in saying that this (the consciousness of the fine-material sphere) is otherwise he explained the distinction. Ta.m paneta.m savatthuka.m, saasava.m, viniivara.na~nca ruupaavacaranti da.t.thabba.m. This, the consciousness of the fine-material sphere, however, should be understood as being with a physical base, with intoxicants, and without the hindrances. ³Savatthuka.m evaa²ti hi iminaa aruupaavacara.m nivatteti, ³saasavan²ti iminaa pa.thamamaggacitta.m, ³viniivara.nan²ti iminaa pa.tighasahitadvaya.m. It is with a physical base (vatthu), and this means that it turns away from aruupa-jhaana; it is with intoxicants and this means that it turns away from the path-consciousness; it is without the hindrances, and this means that it turns away from the pair connected with sensory impingement. Katthaci pa~nca jhaana"ngaani, katthaci cattaari, katthaci tii.ni, katthaci dve, katthaci aparaani dveti eva.m jhaana"ngayogabhedato pa~ncavidhanti sa"nkhepato vuttamattha.m vivaritu.m ³seyyathidan²ti-aadi aaraddha.m. Wherever there are five, four, three, two and again another two jhaana-factors, he classified the consciousness of the 'fine-material sphere' as fivefold, according to its association with the jhana factors and, in order to explain the meaning of what was said in brief, he said to begin with, ³that is to say (the first is associated with applied thought...)². Tattha ya.m vattabba.m, ta.m he.t.thaa jhaanakathaaya.m (visuddhi. 1.79 aadayo) vuttameva. What should be said in that case has been said before in the Description of Jhaana (Visuddhimagga, Part II). Tayida.m bhaavanaamayameva hutvaa vuttanayena pathaviikasi.naadika.m aalambitvaa yathaaraha.m ~naa.nasampayuttakusalaanantara.m uppajjati, Therefore, after there has been the development according to the method that was explained, and the meditation subject beginning with the earth kasina has been taken, kusala cittas connected with understanding arise accordingly, hiinaadibhedabhinna.m paneta.m yathaakkama.m brahmapaarisajjaadiisu so.lasasupi brahmalokesu upapattinipphaadakanti da.t.thabba.m. and when jhaana is developed in due order, beginning with a limited degree (of absorption) etc. it should be understood that it can produce rebirth in the plane of Brahma¹s Retinue and so on, that is to say, in sixteen brahma planes. Vis. 87. aruupaavacara.m catunna.m aaruppaana.m yogavasena catubbidha.m. vuttappakaarena hi aakaasaana~ncaayatanajjhaanena sampayutta.m pa.thama.m, vi~n~naa.na~ncaayatanaadiihi dutiyatatiyacatutthaani. Pali Tiika 87: Ruupasa~n~naasamatikkamaadinaa samadhigantabba.m aruupaavacara.m. With the complete surmounting of perceptions of matter he must attain immaterial consciousness. Catunna.m aruupaananti upekkhaasamaadhisa"nkhaatehi catuuhi aruupajjhaanehi. As to the expression, of the four immaterial states, this refers to the four stages of aruupa-jhaana that are reckoned as associated with the factors equanimity and concentration.... N: The text of the Vis. uses the expression: catunna.m aaruppaana.m, of the four immaterial states, and we have to note here: aaruppaana.m with two p¹s, instead of aruupaana.m and this is a word association with ruppa: what is molested. Of ruupa it is said that it is molested, (ruppati, to molest), by cold, heat, etc. or by change. The four meditation subjects of aruupa-jhaana are not dependent on any materiality, they are not molested. The Tiika states further on that the aruupajhaanacittas of the four stages are classified according to their meditation subjects and it refers to the Description of the Immaterial jhaanas (Part II, Ch 10). The Tiika mentions the four stages which have as subjects: Boundless Space, Unbounded Consciousness, Nothingness, Neither-Perception-Nor-Non-Perception. The result is rebirth in four aruupa-brahma planes. ****** Nina 34619 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:14am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 86, 87. Vis. 86. 86. The consciousness of the 'fine-material sphere' is fivefold, being classed according to association with the jhana factors. That is to say, (9) the first is associated with applied thought, sustained thought, happiness, bliss, and concentration, (10) the second leaves out applied thought from that, (11) the third leaves out sustained thought from that, (12) the fourth makes happiness fade away from that, (13) the fifth is associated with equanimity and concentration, bliss having subsided. Tiika 86. ?s to the expression ³however the consciousness of the fine-material sphere², the word , (meaning here) ³however², explains the distinction. N: The translator of the Vis text did not translate , "however". The consciousness of the fine-material sphere is distinct in several ways from the foregoing kusala cittas of the sense sphere that were explained. In the following lines the Tiika explains the differences, using the word , to render the distinction. It can be translated as: however, this is not so in the case of... Tiika: Consciousness of the sense sphere overcomes defilements just by substitution of their opposites, however, this is not so with the fine-material consciousness, this overcomes them by repression. N: In the development of insight the perception of permanence is overcome by the perception of impermanence, and so on. This is overcoming by the opposites (tada²nga pahaana). The jhaanacitta temporarily subdues the hindrances. Tiika: Or, consciousness of the sense sphere is classified as eightfold, according to feeling, wisdom, being prompted, however, this is not so (in the case of consciousness of the fine-material sphere); in saying that this (the consciousness of the fine-material sphere) is otherwise he explained the distinction. This, the consciousness of the fine-material sphere, however, should be understood as being with a physical base, with intoxicants, and without the hindrances. It is with a physical base (vatthu), and this means that it turns away from aruupa-jhaana; it is with intoxicants and this means that it turns away from the path-consciousness; it is without the hindrances, and this means that it turns away from the pair connected with sensory impingement. N: Since its meditation subject is dependent on and involved with ruupa, it is not inclined to aruupa-jhaana, its development does not lead to aruupa-jhaana. For further explanations, see my Intro. Tiika: Wherever there are five, four, three, two and again another two jhaana-factors, he classified the consciousness of the 'fine-material sphere' as fivefold, according to its association with the jhana factors and, in order to explain the meaning of what was said in brief, he said to begin with, ³that is to say (the first is associated with applied thought...)². What should be said in that case has been said before in the Description of Jhaana (Visuddhimagga, Part II). Therefore, after there has been the development according to the method that was explained, and the meditation subject beginning with the earth kasina has been taken, kusala cittas connected with understanding arise accordingly, and when jhaana is developed in due order, beginning with a limited degree (of absorption) etc. it should be understood that it can produce rebirth in the plane of Brahma¹s Retinue and so on, that is to say, in sixteen brahma planes. N: Those who have a limited degree of absorption of the first jhaana will be reborn in the lowest plane of ruupa-brahmans, namely, the plane of Brahma¹s Retinue. Those with a medium and a high degree of absorption of the first jhaana will be reborn accordingly in higher ruupa-brahma planes: the plane of Brahma¹s Ministers and the Great Brahmaas. Each stage of jhaana can be of a limited, a medium or a high degree of absorption, Each of these degrees produces its result accordingly (Commentary to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha, A.T. P. 108, 109) ***** Vis. 87: That of the 'immaterial sphere' is fourfold by association with the four immaterial states; for (14) the first is associated with the jhana of the base consisting of boundless space in the way aforesaid, while (15)-(17) the second, third, and fourth, are [respectively] associated with those of the base consisting of boundless consciousness, and so on. Tiika 87: With the complete surmounting of perceptions of matter he must attain immaterial consciousness. As to the expression, of the four immaterial states, this refers to the four stages of aruupa-jhaana that are reckoned as associated with the factors equanimity and concentration. N: There are four stages of aruupajhaana and all four aruupa-jhaanacittas are accompanied by the same two factors as the fifth ruupa-jhaanacitta, by equanimity and concentration. The text of the Vis. uses the expression: catunna.m aaruppaana.m, of the four immaterial states, and we have to note here: aaruppaana.m with two p¹s, instead of aruupaana.m and this is a word association with ruppa: what is molested. Of ruupa it is said that it is molested, (ruppati, to molest), by cold, heat, etc. or by change. The four meditation subjects of aruupa-jhaana are not dependent on any materiality, they are not molested. The Tiika states further on that the aruupajhaanacittas of the four stages are classified according to their meditation subjects and it refers to the Description of the Immaterial jhaanas (Part II, Ch 10). The Tiika mentions the four stages which have as subjects: Boundless Space, Unbounded Consciousness, Nothingness, Neither-Perception-Nor-Non-Perception. The result is rebirth in four aruupa-brahma planes. **** Nina. 34620 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] the stock of texts Hi Larry, op 15-07-2004 01:02 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > Nina: "You discussed with Jim how to find more time for reading. Larry > and others may like to know that both his operations were satisfactory," > That's good news. I hope he is able to rejoin us before his winter > hibernation. N: I am not sure, since he will be busy with his own list, on Kaccayaana, an old Pali grammar. He helps now and then on the Pali list. He is always willing to help if we need texts. I do not know about the stock of Vis. texts now. The Canadian winter is long and cold, and the fire of interest has to be kept burning! Nina. 34621 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 11:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Hi Larry, op 15-07-2004 01:24 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > I wonder what kind of intention motivates jhana. N: It is more than intention alone. Firstly, one has to have rebirth-consciousness with three roots, thus, with wisdom. One's true accumulations should be detachment from sense pleasures. One has to be very sincere and truthful to oneself. Does one really want to live practically as a monk, sever all impediments of dwelling, family, relatives, books, etc. ? He has to have keen pañña knowing what is favorable and what is unfavorable to jhana. He has to know precisely when the citta is kusala, when akusala, he has to know all the cetasikas that are the jhanafactors, etc. L: What makes it evolve > from one jhana to another? N: The development with great pañña that knows which factors that are gross have to be abandoned in order to reach a higher more refined stage. That is why he has to have precise, keen understanding of the jhanafactors. L: Also, I wonder how the object is maintained > without applied thought and sustained thought. N: He becomes so skillful that he does not need applied thought and sustained thought anymore in order to be focussed on the meditation subject. It all comes naturally, because of the proper conditions being cultivated. L: The object is a concept > so this seems like a thought to me. N: It is a concept experienced through the mind-door, but this does not mean that thinking is necessary. We should not confuse the functions of applied thought and sustained thought with the word thinking as used in conventional sense. Jhanacitta does not need to think in words or name anything, it is just absorption concentration on a meditation subject. It is focussed on it. Even at the first stage. The two factors of applied thought and sustained thought assist the jhanacitta to be concentrated on the object without having to think about it. L: Are jhana cittas only javana or is the whole citta process jhana cittas? N: Jhanacitta arises in a process: as in the case of lokuttaracitta: mind-door adverting consciousness, then follow kuala cittas with pañña still belonging to the sense sphere: preparatory consciousness, proximity consciousness, conformity or adaptation, change-of-lineage (gotrabhuu) which is the last kaamaavacaaracitta and then jhana-citta. Thus not the whole process is jhanacitta. For the first time there may be only one moment of jhanacitta, but when there is more skill jhanacittas can arise succeeding one another even for a whole day. They are javana-cittas, rupaavacara kusala cittas or aruupaavacara kusala cittas, or kiriyacittas in the case of arahats. The Buddha would teach the monks not to take jhanacitta for self, they should develop insight and learn to see the jhanacitta as impermanent, dukkha and non-self. His teaching is different from all other teachers who taught the development of jhana. Nina. 34622 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 0:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Nori) - > > In a message dated 7/14/04 11:29:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: ... > > Neither of these 2 options would be my idea of practice in accordance > with > > the dhamma. It is much more subtle and complex than this. We should > not > > be too eager to see an immediate reduction in 'taking pleasure' or > other > > forms of akusala, as this will distract us from the path of developing > > insight into the true nature of the presently arising dhamma. > > > > My views, anyway ;-)) > > > > Jon > > > ========================== > Hey, Jon - I *agree* with you!! ;-)) That's great, Howard! We may not be able to agree what the practice *is*, but at least we can agree what it *isn't* ;-)) > Generally, though this need not > be the case for Nori, what Nori describes sounds like suppression. Of > course, > there can be times, with some people, that reactions (of craving or > aversion) > do not result from pleasant or unpleasant vedana, and this increasingly > so > depending on "development". But, in general, one cannot will > non-reaction, but can > merely suppress reaction (or our awareness of it), or quickly turn the > mind > away from the object that may lead to it. Yes, and these are all attempts at control and hence doomed to be akusala. > What is good to do, I think, is to > attend carefully to whatever arises, as much as possible, and as clearly > as > possible. This bhavana will, together with other practice, cultivate the > mind, > increasing mindfulness and moments of insight, and tend to make the mind > less reactive in the long run. Although is there really such a thing as a *non-reactive* mind? Perhaps you mean, without akusala reaction. But that comes (much, much) later, as I understand the order of things. Jon 34623 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 0:34pm Subject: RE: [dsg] what I heard Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > You acknowledge some value in deep sleep when upon awakening there is > the realisation that there was no I, there was no mine. > > Cannot this same valuable insight arise after deep meditation? Are you suggesting that the same mental state may result from deep sleep as from deep meditation? In that case, why bother to meditate? Just think of the possibilities... Time to do my practice. Zzz Zzz Zzz ... ;-)) > You will probably reply with "Well, the decision to meditate is based in > self-view, so what follows can't be any good either". > > To which I would probably reply "Next time you decide to go to bed, see > if there is any self-view in that" But the question is, does anyone go to bed thinking it's going to make them wiser? Jon 34624 From: Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 8:50am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi, Icaro - In a message dated 7/15/04 11:23:42 AM Eastern Daylight Time, icarofranca@y... writes: > I don't remember where I have > gathered up this passage of D.O. on NET, but it seems > to be the same you took up!!! Hah!!! > ===================== Thanks for your detailed reply. I'm only responding here to that bit which I have quoted above: I didn't get this from somewher on the internet, but from my own fevered brain! So, I have no one to blame but myself! ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34625 From: Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:06am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/15/04 3:45:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@ya hoo.com.hk writes: > > Hey, Jon - I *agree* with you!! ;-)) > > That's great, Howard! We may not be able to agree what the practice *is*, > but at least we can agree what it *isn't* ;-)) ---------------------------------------- Howard: ---------------------------------------- > > >Generally, though this need not > >be the case for Nori, what Nori describes sounds like suppression. Of > >course, > >there can be times, with some people, that reactions (of craving or > >aversion) > >do not result from pleasant or unpleasant vedana, and this increasingly > >so > >depending on "development". But, in general, one cannot will > >non-reaction, but can > >merely suppress reaction (or our awareness of it), or quickly turn the > >mind > >away from the object that may lead to it. > > Yes, and these are all attempts at control and hence doomed to be akusala. > > >What is good to do, I think, is to > >attend carefully to whatever arises, as much as possible, and as clearly > >as > >possible. This bhavana will, together with other practice, cultivate the > >mind, > >increasing mindfulness and moments of insight, and tend to make the mind > >less reactive in the long run. > > Although is there really such a thing as a *non-reactive* mind? Perhaps > you mean, without akusala reaction. But that comes (much, much) later, as > I understand the order of things. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes, akusala reaction is exactly what I meant - specifically tanha. And, yes, as far as significant less reactiveness, that indeed comes much later, but, by degrees, along the way, the tendency to react can diminish. ----------------------------------------------- > > Jon > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34626 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 2:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi Howard! > Thanks for your detailed reply. I'm only responding here to >that bit > which I have quoted above: I didn't get this from somewher on the internet, but >> from my own fevered brain! So, I have no one to blame but >myself! ;-) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Yeah!!! At Mahavagga Vinaya, the first idea that comes to Buddha under the Boddhi tree is the Dependent Origination. After that he stood seven days in Bliss, concocting the Abdhidhamma at Deva's Abode! So you can trace the original "Fórmula" of Buddha at this very beginning: the Four Noble truths: Dukkha Samuddha Niroddha Magga the Three main characteristcs: dukkha ( Du + Kkha = "Hard to bearing") anicca anatta And the twelve links of D.O....after these moments, at the seven days of Bliss under Boddhi trees at uruvela, etc,occurs The genesis of Abhidhamma! At least at Vinaya, these are the foundations of Buddhism! Metta, Ícaro > > With metta, > Howard > > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble > in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a > phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) > > > > > 34627 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:35pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi Howard, I believe that dependent origination from momentary perspective has good textual (nikaya) support. The Dhamma is often said to be "akalika" (timeless, immediate, not subject to time). There is also good textual support (nikaya) for dependent origination not being "one* rigid formula, as there are varying DO structures in the suttas. This demonstrates to me that DO is not so much about the content of the structure (the links), but about structure as a whole, that all of whichever (variable) links are in play are immediately there, or none are. DO shows that there are no single dhammas or single conditions. If there is one dhamma, there are countless dhammas and conditions. My thoughts only, of course :-) Herman -----Original Message----- From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] Sent: Thursday, 15 July 2004 10:19 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi, all - A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the cycle of dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly how and where kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. I believe that kamma is related to paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, the sankhara phase, and the bhava phase. It occurs to me that the sankhara phase, the phase of impulsion, amounts to "conception"/sowing of kammic seeds, and that the bhava phase amounts to "gestation"/reaping of kammic seeds. Maintaining the fetus symbolism, upadana is a requisite condition for bhava just as attachment of fetus to womb is needed in order for gestation to occur and subsequent birth of "new self" to follow. From this perspective, moment by moment, mental acts of avijja-conditioned cetana (i.e., kamma) constitute the planting of kammic seeds that only commence ripening in the bhava phase when needed conditions including attachment are in place. So, the cycle of dependent origination as a samsaric process repeated millions of times in a moment within the mind could be viewed as follows: Ignorance -> Kammic Sowing -> Subjectivity <-> Objectivity -> Sense-Door Conduits (Sankhara) -> Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> Kammic Reaping (Bhava) -> Birth (of renewed Ignorance) -> Death and Decay [and the whole mass of suffering] (Jara-marana) Thoughts anyone? With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34628 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 3:47pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi Icaro, You wrote: And the twelve links of D.O....after these moments, at the seven days of Bliss under Boddhi trees at uruvela, etc,occurs The genesis of Abhidhamma! At least at Vinaya, these are the foundations of Buddhism! ================================== Are you saying that the Vinaya is the source for the idea that the Abhidhamma (as Abhidhamma) came into existence under the Bodhi tree? Could you provide a link? Thanks Herman 34629 From: Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:05pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 L: "What makes it (jhana) evolve from one jhana to another?" N: "The development with great pañña that knows which factors that are gross have to be abandoned in order to reach a higher more refined stage." Hi Nina, These are not jhana cittas, correct? After a moment of jhana is there a reviewing? Why does it go in stages, little by little? What do you mean by "gross"? Is it a matter of evaluating tranquility? What is one trying to do in jhana? Larry 34630 From: icarofranca Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 4:31pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi Herman: > ================================== > Are you saying that the Vinaya is the source for the idea that the > Abhidhamma (as Abhidhamma) came into existence under the Bodhi tree? > Could you provide a link? --------------------------------------------------------------------- At Mahavagga, chapter one, under the Bodhi tree, the first idea that came to Buddha WAS Dependent Origination. After that, Buddha spent five cycles of seven days of Bliss under Bodhi trees at Uruvella, Savatthi, etc. Finishing this period of bliss he came back to his old friends of ascesis at Benares. Well, tradition tells that The Abhidhamma was raised up at Deva´s Realms by Buddha in such Bliss periods of seven days. You can check out Mahavagga Vinaya, Chapter One, First Khandhaka. Mettaya, Ícaro 34631 From: nina van gorkom Date: Thu Jul 15, 2004 9:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa consciousness Dear k k, (buddhaward), op 15-07-2004 06:26 schreef buddhaward op buddhaward@y...: > I am a korean buddhist in Japan. N: Happy to meet you! K: Sometimes I enjoy visiting this group though I do not know well about > Abhidhamma. N: Do stay with us. It helps to ask questions on Abhidhamma, little by little you will become familiar with it. Most wellcome. Besides Abhidhamma, we talk about suttas, and also about the application of Dhamma in our life, solving problems, etc. K: > easy way to develop insight, nor as a kind of escape from daily > life. > What do you think Buddha's intentions were behind when Bhuddha > seemed to exhort his deciples to develop Jhanas as in suttas? N: His teaching was always directed towards the understanding of impermanence, dukkha and non-self. Whatever he taught, there always was this goal. He spoke to people of different inclinations, with different abilities, and when they had accumulated skill for jhana he would help them not to take jhana for self. They could use it as a foundation for insight, that is to say, be mindful and develop understanding also of jhanacitta. Some people were highly gifted and could develop both jhana and insight and attain arahatship with the highest distinctive qualities. > K: ... (snipped) We should not > wish for >> another situation and another reality, we should be contented with > what is >> here now. We can learn to see dhamma as dhamma. >> A. Sujin stressed that the indriyas, faculties, of confidence, > energy, >> mindfulness, concentration and pañña should become stronger, > otherwise the >> four noble Truths cannot be realized. When satipatthana is being > developed, >> confidence also becomes stronger. When akusala dhamma appears, we > should be >> brave and be aware of it. That means that there is confidence and > energy >> together with pañña. By listening again and again we understand > more deeply >> that what appears now is just dhamma that we cannot change it. > K: Is such an intention itself to develop the indriyas, faculties, of > confidence, energy,mindfulness, concentration and pañña derived from > our "wish for another situation and another reality" ? N: On the contrary. They are developed together and then we have more and more confidence not to look for objects of awareness other than what appears at this very moment, yes, we have great confidence that this is the only way. We cannot develop clear understanding of what is past or of what has not yet come. > K: And Could you please explain how do you think we should develop them ? N: We should first have intellectual understanding of mental phenomena and physical phenomena, and this can grow by listening, discussing, studying. This in itself is a condition for the arising of direct understanding. Also direct understanbding is non-self, it has its own conditions for its arising. If we do not obstruct its arising by wishing it to develop fast, by forcing it, trying to direct it, it can grow in its own time. We need patience and endurance. As understanding grows, even when it is not yet of the level of direct understanding, the confidence, energy, mindfulness, concentration develop along with understanding. Right understanding of the realities appearing in our life and learning to see them as only conditioned dhammas, that is the way that those faculties can become stronger. I like your direct questions, thank you. You are wellcome any time. Nina. 34632 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:40am Subject: RE: [dsg] what I heard Hi Jon, ======================================= J : Are you suggesting that the same mental state may result from deep sleep as from deep meditation? In that case, why bother to meditate? Just think of the possibilities... Time to do my practice. Zzz Zzz Zzz ... ;-)) ======================================= H: I think the Buddha might have replied with something like "Why bother to sleep?" Not a moment to loose, Jon :-) Herman 34633 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:45am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Ken, =========================================== Apart from your distrust for the written word (I think Andrew has said what needed to be said there :-) ), can you be a little more specific about this "chasm?" =========================================== I don't mistrust the written word, I just don't think it will lead anybody to enlightenment. But then again, I am also fairly sure that enlightenment a la Buddha is not actually what people are after these days. With regards to the chasm, watch this space :-) Catch you later Herman 34634 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 11:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 op 16-07-2004 01:05 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > L: "What makes it (jhana) evolve from one jhana to another?" > > N: "The development with great pañña that knows which factors that > are gross > have to be abandoned in order to reach a higher more refined stage."> > L: These are not jhana cittas, correct? After a moment of jhana is there a > reviewing? N: Yes, there have to be. Such moments are not jhanacittas. He has to consider with pañña the jhana he attained before, the jhanafactors that accompanied that stage of jhana. We read in the "Path of Discrimination", Pa.tisambidhaamagga:( Engl. p. 36) : 217: Sati sampajañña has to carefully realize which conditions are unfavorable and which are favorable. Pañña has to be keen to know the right cause for the right effect. L: Why does it go in stages, little by little? What do you mean by "gross"? Is it a matter of evaluating tranquility? N: It is already difficult to maintain jhana, and more difficult to attain higher stages of jhana. Detachment has to grow. He sees that the first jhana is still gross, not as tranquil and refined as the second stage without applied thought. In order to attain the second stage he abandons applied thought. He successively abandons piiti, rapture, and happy feeling. In the highest stage of ruupa-jhaana , the fourth of the fourfold system and the fifth of the fivefold system, there are only equanimity and concentration. He foregoes all happy feeling, this stage is very peaceful. He should be praised, because he is detached from all happiness that was experienced before. L:What is one trying > to do in jhana? N: To subdue the hindrances of sense desire, aversion, and so on. It is repeated: completely away from sense pleasures. He must be very determined. And then he becomes detached even from the highest and most refined rapture and happy feeling when he abandons these. This is most difficult, he is worthy of praise. Lodewijk asked me today why we should study jhana, he feels it is far away from him. I explained that we read about jhana in the suttas and that there are several reasons for reflecting on jhana. We can admire arahats in the Buddha's time who attained the jhanas and had the four discriminative knowledges. Another reason is that there are misunderstandings about what true jhana is. There may be accumulated conditions for some people to have special experiences, but one should carefully check whether these truly lead to detachment. In the development of jhana there has to be detachment from pleasure and happiness all the way. It is not a small matter to develop jhana, it cannot be accomplished properly by practising just a few hours a day. We then talked about it how difficult it is to be detached from the idea of person when looking at a person. We were looking at each other in the restaurant today, celebrating our fifty second wedding day! To know that what we see is only visible object. Only through insight ignorance and wrong view can be eradicated. Jhana means temporary detachment, but vipassana leads eventually to complete detachment. To show the difference between samatha and vipassana I shall quote from my latent tendency text: We read in the ³Sumangalavilåsiní², the Commentary to the Dígha Nikåya, in the Commentary to the ³Net of Views² (Brahmajålasutta), under the section on Síla: ³In the Vinaya he taught the abandoning of the coarse defilements, because morality is opposed to coarse defilements. He taught the abandoning of medium defilements in the Suttanta, because concentration is opposed to medium defilements. He taught the abandoning of subtle defilements in the Abhidhamma because wisdom is opposed to subtle defilements. He taught in the first Piìaka the temporary elimination of defilements and in the other two Piìakas he taught (respectively) the elimination of defilements by suppression and by complete cutting off. The abandoning of the corruptions (sankilesa) which are akusala kamma he taught in the first Piìaka, the abandoning of the corruptions which are craving (tanhå) and wrong view (ditthi) he taught (respectively) in the other two Pitakas.² There are the expressions: overcoming by repression, vikkhambhana-pahåna, and overcoming by destruction, samuccheda-pahåna. Overcoming by repression refers to the subduing of the hindrances and so on by suppression, by preventing their arising by means of concentration of the degree of access concentration and attainment concentration (jhåna), just as a pot thrown into moss-clad water pushes the moss aside. Overcoming by destruction (samuccheda-pahåna) refers to the abandoning of the groups of defilements which originate in the succession of cittas of someone who develops the Path and which are completely eradicated by the four supramundane Paths so that they cannot arise anymore. Nina. 34635 From: buddhatrue Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:19pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Lodewijk asked me today why we should study jhana, he feels it is far away > from him. I explained that we read about jhana in the suttas and that there > are several reasons for reflecting on jhana. We can admire arahats in the > Buddha's time who attained the jhanas and had the four discriminative > knowledges. Another reason is that there are misunderstandings about what > true jhana is. There may be accumulated conditions for some people to have > special experiences, but one should carefully check whether these truly lead > to detachment. In the development of jhana there has to be detachment from > pleasure and happiness all the way. It is not a small matter to develop > jhana, it cannot be accomplished properly by practising just a few hours a > day. Friend Nina, I have been reading your posts about jhana with great interest. They have been very good and worthwhile. You have been giving a lot of valuable information about jhana practice. However, I have noticed in a few posts where you have stated that jhana practice is not meant for the householder, only for the monk. I have posted to you about this before, but perhaps it has slipped your mind. Please allow me to gently remind you again that the Buddha did encourage householders to practice and achieve jhana: AN 109 "The Rapture of Seculsion": "Then the householder Anathapindika, accompanied by five hundred lay followers, approached the Blessed One…The Blessed One then said to them: `Householders, you attend upon the Sangha of monks with robes, almsfood, lodgings and medicinal requisites for use in time of sickness. But you should not remain satisfied merely with this. Rather, householders, you should train yourselves thus: `How can we enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?'33 Thus should you train yourselves.'… Note 33: Pavivekam pitim. AA: The rapture arising in dependence on the first and second jhanas. Here the Buddha states that householders who are lay disciples should find the means to practice and enter at least the first two jhanas. Obviously, a householder isn't going to be able to practice meditation all day, everyday (like a monk does), in order to achieve this; therefore, one must be able to achieve the jhanas with just a few hours of practice a day…or possibly going on a brief meditation retreat(s) to achieve the jhanas. The Buddha wouldn't tell householders to do something that they couldn't possibly do, right? Please continue with your wonderful posts on jhana and jhanacittas, etc. They are very informative. However, I believe that you should follow the Buddha's example and encourage householders to achieve the first two jhanas as a worthwhile and quite possible goal. Metta, James 34636 From: Philip Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Hello Nina, and all N:> I appreciate it that you study so much. Ph: I appreciate it that you teach so much and write so many fabulous books and articles! The latest thing I have in my head is from with a dialogue towards the end of with Abhidhamma in Daily Life or Buddhism in Daily Life, I forget which. You ask the questioner what should be the goal of practice, and she or he answers "to eradicate defilements", which is the way I would have answered, having read that somewhere in one of the books. But you refine this answer and remind the reader that one does not eradicate all defilements until Arahat. First things first. We must get rid of wrong view of self first . I feel that the vague aspiritions to become enlightened or "wise" that I had when I first encountered the Buddha's teaching have been focussed on loosening the roots of self-view. That is much more than enough enough to aspire to in this lifetime. Ph:> As you may > > remember, these temper outbursts have been a problem with me. ... yesterday I > took it as a reminder that these > > things are not in my control and fretting about it is just a > > hindrance. Seeing through to this lack of control may lead to more > > equanimity, which will make it less likely that it will happen again > > soon. > N: Lodewijk and I discussed before that people may also take it the wrong > way: O, just conditions, just accumulations, who cares. You did not take it > that way, but perhaps I should add a few words lest others have > misunderstandings. Ph: After posting in a quick way, I realized that some might interpret what I had written as "Well, I can't control anything, so let's just relax and enjoy or not enjoy what comes." A kind of shamelessness, or being "as bold and pert as a crow" as I think the Dhammapada puts it somewhere. That was surely not my meaning. There is shame (hiri) of what I have done, but I am not clinging to it and dwelling in it like I used to do. I think I used to see dwelling in shame as a way of straightening my view in a skillful way, but in fact it only strengthens self-view, because I was basing it on this ideal view of self that doesn't do that kind of thing. And when and how does shame become worry (kukkucca) which Manual of Abhidhamma describes as "worry or remorse of having done wrong" and is an unwholesome cetasika. It seems we dwell in kukucca, but hiri comes and goes more quickly. (Of course all cittas do, but what is it about worry that makes us gnaw at it like a bone?) So these moments of shame, wholesome shame. Just how do they condition better behaviour next time? No need to think about it, but have faith that in some way they do. N:> Conceit plays a big role in whatever we do. My important person, how > dare he do this to me. Ph: This is it exactly. How dare he cut in line! So silly. "My important person" - we are all VIPs in our wrong self-view. I thiink a lot about the eight worldy concerns. Actually, I wonder why they are not much more central in the Buddha's, why they don't appear more often. It seems that reflecting on them helps a lot in loosening self- view, just as reflecting on the three characterstics or the four noble truths do. Of course, this reflection is just intellectual for me at this point. N:>Or: how can I behave so ugly, that can also be > conceit. We have to consider the citta, there can also be wholesome shame. Ph: Yes, conceit is involved in the worrying I was talking about above. Wholesome shame is different. N:> should not forget the Brahmaviharas, I learnt that from you. It is a good > idea to say to the other cyclist (but perhaps you did) that you are sorry, > or to make amends. Ph: I thought it, almost immediately afterwards. Not as good as saying it but better than nothing. N:>To treat him as your friend, even when he was wrong. > Friend cyclist! When driving we do not mind when others pass us very fast or > do strange things. Just let them. Ph: I'm afraid that when drivers behave in a very dangerous way I think that they are owners of their kamma and think that they will only learn when they have an accident. The latter part isn't good. I should wish for their well-being and have friendly feelings. Some days I do. But at least knwoing that they are ownders of their kamma seems to prevent the arising of the urge to fight back and rid the world of bad drivers, which is such a silly thing to do. Thanks always for your encouragement. Metta, Phil 34637 From: Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 5:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Hi Nina, Thanks for your detailed reply. One last question, what is involved in repressing the hindrances? Does jhana citta do this or is it panna? How, for example, is sensuous desire repressed? The hindrances are sensuous desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, restlessness and scruples, and sceptical doubt. Are these manifested through discursive thinking? Is rupa not a hindrance? What about feeling? Larry 34638 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 7:52pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Hi Nina and Lodewijk, Hearty congratulations on your fifty-second wedding anniversary. May you have many more fine years together!!! En dat jullie de muziek van het leven samen mogen blijven horen :-) Herman 34639 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Entity / was: some caution and non-advice Hi Howard, ----------------------- H: > When it is said that all dhammas are anattá, I take that to mean two things: Every phenomenon, conditioned or not, is a) impersonal i.e., neither an ego-entity nor belonging to an ego- entity, ----------------------- Maybe I'm trying too hard to be clever, but it seems there is a difference between a dhamma's being 'not a self' (not an ego-entity) and its being 'empty of a self.' The latter is more meaningful to my way of thinking. It means, "There is, here, only a [fleeting, unsatisfactory] dhamma,: there is nothing more [that might be called a self.]" The former is less meaningful, it simply states, "This dhamma is not a self." What does that tell us other than not to call it by that name? What's in a name? What would be the harm in calling a dhamma a self? It might even be a beneficial exercise. It might be helpful to see that the self is born, lives and dies in one moment. ---------------- H: > and b) without substantial core. ---------------- If that means a core that carries over from one dhamma to the next, then, yes, anatta does mean without a substantial core. But if a substantial core refers simply to some part of a dhamma that arises, persists and ceases all in one moment, then, I would think, it has nothing to do with the anatta characteristic. ------------------- H: > In the case of conditioned phenomena, part b) is due to the phenomena not being self-existent, but arising due to the confluence of other (similarly empty) conditions. ------------------- I think it is imperative that we see a dhamma as existent. If that means calling it "self-existent," then that's OK. On the other hand, if we think there are ultimately no dhammas -- just a flux of conditioning forces -- then how are we ever going to directly see (experience) a dhamma? Against our `better judgement?' I don't think so. ------------------------ H: > In the case of nibbana, its corelessness is due to its being a mere absence - in fact, the ultimate emptiness. ------------------------ Wouldn't anatta be the core of Nibbana? -------------------- H: > The term 'entity' thus properly applies to no dhamma at all, as I pointed out in my previous post. There actually are no entities. Belief in entities is a form of atta-view, in my opinion. -------------------- There are no entities in the sense of "things that persist from one moment to the next." There are, most certainly, entities in the sense of "things that exist in the present moment" – namely, paramattha dhammas. Kind regards, Ken H 34640 From: kenhowardau Date: Fri Jul 16, 2004 9:40pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Abhidhamma Hi Herman, KH: > > Apart from your distrust for the written word <. . .> can you be a little more specific about this "chasm?" > > =========================================== H: > I don't mistrust the written word, I just don't think it will lead anybody to enlightenment. > -------------------- A subtle distinction that was lost on me. My apologies. :-) -------------------- But then again, I am also fairly sure that enlightenment a la Buddha is not actually what people are after these days. -------------------- I would say the same thing, but I am thinking of people who want to be seen as wonderful, enlightened super-egos. There is a lot of `wrong enlightenment' being sought after. ------------- H: > With regards to the chasm, watch this space :-) ------------- I am on tenterhooks! :-) Ken H 34641 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:07am Subject: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Dear Friends, --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Time to do my practice. Zzz Zzz Zzz ... > ;-)) .... Back in Hong Kong after flying into a ‘direct hit’ typhoon yesterday afternoon, unlike the other diverted flights. It required a little ingenuity to get home as the city closes down at these times and everyone had rushed home many hours earlier and there were no buses or taxis to be found. Having earlier checked our bags in at Meiringen (thx to the amazing Swiss bus/rail/air bag service), with lots of time to spare before a late night flight, we’d taken a circular route to the airport via a glacier alpine pass and broke up our journey further by basking in the sun by a quiet lake catching up on all the posts which Jon had printed out. I’d like to specially welcome any new members and just to thank all of you who’ve been posting and given us such great holiday reading with so many prompts for wise reflection. I look forward to getting back into posting action after the weekend -- I don’t have Jon’s skill to ad lib on the run at airports and bars . His last Zzz Zzz ones to Herman and Howard were literally on the run and in semi -Zzz mode at Zurich airport as we’d filled in our day so beautifully we were very sleepy and had no time to spare. When the bags last seen at Meiringen amazingly came through with the other bags at Hong Kong, I could see immediately he must have been in Zzzz mode when he’d checked his in more than 24 hours earlier, for there sticking out of its padlock was its mislaid key, just like a similar episode in Burma as he reminded me. Now, before anyone suggests this could possibly indicate any lack of sati (mindfulness ) on his part, let me champion the Zzzz school of thought which says that even whilst pursuing a habit of forgetfully leaving keys in bag locks on flights which surely tests the honesty of all bag handlers -- all have passed with flying colours to date -- there can be satipatthana even at these times and that it would be wrong to think one has to turn a leaf or rather a key or leave one’s Zzzz modes at home in order for there to be meditation in action. Looking forward to any Sizzly or Zizzly comments and hopefully I won’t be so jet-lagged -- my excuse for now-- when I next write. Metta, Sarah p.s. Christine, I swear we saw *and heard* a very loud barking deer trying to protect his ‘wife’ and young from us, whistling marmots, a black and white spotted bumble bee, a large herd of grey/brown cows with the strongest moos imaginable as they followed us down a remote muddy mountain track until they reached their calves lower down, while we had more than a passing reflecting on the Bahiya sutta and how ‘a cow with a year-old calf *collided* with Bahiya, but how Bahiya ‘attained parinibbaana’ at the time(thx Herman!!)***, goats of all colours and sizes, black squirrels and wild chamoix on a mountain top....oh and Andrew, lots and lots of cats, all well looked after.....;-) *** “Wherein water, earth, heat and wind find no footing, therein stars do not sparkle nor is the sun manifest, therein the moon does not lustre, therein the gloom is not found. And when the brahmin sage through sage-hood has experienced (this) for himself, then he his freed from form and formlessness, from happiness and dukkha”.(The Udaana,#10, ‘With Bahiya’ (Masefield transl). ====================================== 34642 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 2:24am Subject: Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Hello Sarah, Welcome back - you've been missed! Send some rain down this way - my house tanks are nearly dry. :-) Forget the barking deers, the whistling marmots (what's a marmot?) the spotted bumble bee, and the grey/brown cows and Andrew's cats - I've got something really serious to worry about. It's winter in South East Queensland - it's frosty, and the mice and possums have remembered how to shin up the trees into my ceiling - you know, Forsyth's Winter Lodge Wonderland. As well, Rusty the Dhamma (was that Damn?) Dog has managed to find a way to open my non- harming mouse traps and eat the cheese. (sigh) Are we sure rebirth in the Animal Plane is all that bad? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- p.s. Any 'gulping' you-know-whats? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Dear Friends, > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Time to do my practice. Zzz Zzz Zzz ... > > ;-)) > .... > Back in Hong Kong after flying into a `direct hit' typhoon yesterday > afternoon, unlike the other diverted flights. It required a little > ingenuity to get home as the city closes down at these times and everyone > had rushed home many hours earlier and there were no buses or taxis to be > found. > > Having earlier checked our bags in at Meiringen (thx to the amazing Swiss > bus/rail/air bag service), with lots of time to spare before a late night > flight, we'd taken a circular route to the airport via a glacier alpine > pass and broke up our journey further by basking in the sun by a quiet > lake catching up on all the posts which Jon had printed out. I'd like to > specially welcome any new members and just to thank all of you who've been > posting and given us such great holiday reading with so many prompts for > wise reflection. > > I look forward to getting back into posting action after the weekend -- I > don't have Jon's skill to ad lib on the run at airports and bars . His > last Zzz Zzz ones to Herman and Howard were literally on the run and in > semi -Zzz mode at Zurich airport as we'd filled in our day so beautifully > we were very sleepy and had no time to spare. > > When the bags last seen at Meiringen amazingly came through with the other > bags at Hong Kong, I could see immediately he must have been in Zzzz mode > when he'd checked his in more than 24 hours earlier, for there sticking > out of its padlock was its mislaid key, just like a similar episode in > Burma as he reminded me. Now, before anyone suggests this could possibly > indicate any lack of sati (mindfulness ) on his part, let me champion the > Zzzz school of thought which says that even whilst pursuing a habit of > forgetfully leaving keys in bag locks on flights which surely tests the > honesty of all bag handlers -- all have passed with flying colours to date > -- there can be satipatthana even at these times and that it would be > wrong to think one has to turn a leaf or rather a key or leave one's Zzzz > modes at home in order for there to be meditation in action. Looking > forward to any Sizzly or Zizzly comments and hopefully I won't be so > jet-lagged -- my excuse for now-- when I next write. > > Metta, > > Sarah > > p.s. Christine, I swear we saw *and heard* a very loud barking deer trying > to protect his `wife' and young from us, whistling marmots, a black and > white spotted bumble bee, a large herd of grey/brown cows with the > strongest moos imaginable as they followed us down a remote muddy mountain > track until they reached their calves lower down, while we had more than a > passing reflecting on the Bahiya sutta and how `a cow with a year- old calf > *collided* with Bahiya, but how Bahiya `attained parinibbaana' at the > time(thx Herman!!)***, goats of all colours and sizes, black squirrels and > wild chamoix on a mountain top....oh and Andrew, lots and lots of cats, > all well looked after.....;-) > > *** "Wherein water, earth, heat and wind find no footing, therein stars do > not sparkle nor is the sun manifest, therein the moon does not lustre, > therein the gloom is not found. And when the brahmin sage through > sage-hood has experienced (this) for himself, then he his freed from form > and formlessness, from happiness and dukkha".(The Udaana,#10, `With > Bahiya' (Masefield transl). > 34643 From: sarah abbott Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:34am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, > > Welcome back - you've been missed! Send some rain down this way - > my house tanks are nearly dry. :-) ... S:Thanks for that..... I’m almost afraid to resurface in case I send anyone off into hibernation....;-) My mother was praying to God and Buddha for an end to the rain in Switzerland and just as we left the sun came out there, now water, water everywhere again here..... oh well, still sounds and visible objects whether wet or dry. .... > Forget the barking deers, the whistling marmots (what's a marmot?) .... S:another hibernating creature - rather like a cross between a possum and a rabbit??? From Google - Switzerland marmots, see a pic: http://www.ecs.soton.ac.uk/~km/pics/kirk/marmot.html ‘Marmot Trail Marmots are sociable, clever and cheerful creatures ... ‘ ..... > the spotted bumble bee, and the grey/brown cows and Andrew's cats - > I've got something really serious to worry about. > > It's winter in South East Queensland - it's frosty, and the mice and > possums have remembered how to shin up the trees into my ceiling - > you know, Forsyth's Winter Lodge Wonderland. As well, Rusty the > Dhamma (was that Damn?) Dog has managed to find a way to open my non- > harming mouse traps and eat the cheese. (sigh) > > Are we sure rebirth in the Animal Plane is all that bad? .... S: Well, we all know Rusty the D.Dog is the exception to many rules and may have led you to believe otherwise, but this is what is said in the texts. From Baalapa.ndita Sutta (‘Fools and Wise Men’, MN129, Bodhi transl): “There are animals that feed on dung. They smell dung from a distance and run to it, thinking: ‘We can eat, we can eat!’ Just as brahmins run to the smell of a sacrifice, thinking: ‘We can eat, we can eat!’ so too these animals that feed on dung smell dung from a distance and run to it, thinking: ‘We can eat, we can eat!’ And what animals feed on dung? Fowls, pigs, *dogs*, and jackals, and any other such animals. A fool who formerly delighted in tastes here and did evil actions here, on the dissolution of the body, after death, reappears in the company of animals that feed on dung.... ..... “Bhikkhus, I could tell you in many ways about the animal kingdom, so much so that it is hard to find a simile for the suffering in the animal kingdom.... .... “Bhikkhus, the blind turtle would take less time to put his neck into that yoke with a single hole in it than a fool, once gone to perdition, would take to regain the human state, I say. Why is that? Because there is no practising of the Dhamma there, no practising of what is righteous, no doing of what is wholesome, no performance of merit. there mutual devouring prevails, and the slaughter of the weak.” Metta, Sarah > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > p.s. Any 'gulping' you-know-whats? ... ....off for a walk on the ‘you-know-what’ path;-) ======================================== 34644 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:52am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Hi Sarah, By coincidence, I was just doing a bit of browsing re the seven factors that lead to hibernation :-) You are not mentioned in the list at all, so rest easy. Hibernation happens for many reasons, ego mostly :-) I missed you too and nice to have you and Jon back. Herman It was snowing here this morning. It was a condition for me to feel cold :-) -----Original Message----- From: sarah abbott [mailto:sarahprocterabbott@y...] Sent: Saturday, 17 July 2004 8:34 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Hi Chris, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Hello Sarah, > > Welcome back - you've been missed! Send some rain down this way - > my house tanks are nearly dry. :-) ... S:Thanks for that..... I'm almost afraid to resurface in case I send anyone off into hibernation....;-) My mother was praying to God and Buddha for an end to the rain in Switzerland and just as we left the sun came out there, now water, water everywhere again here..... oh well, still sounds and visible objects whether wet or dry. .... 34645 From: icaro franca Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Hi Chris: > (what's a marmot?) ------------------------------------------------------- An angry beaver of Northern Canada, where the marigolds blossom up...HAHAHAHAHAHAHAH!!!! ------------------------------------------------------ > Are we sure rebirth in the Animal Plane is all that > bad? ------------------------------------------------------- Perhaps it´s good, if you rebirth at Discovery Animal Planet Management... ( Sorry Sarah... I could ask you how about you travel to Meiringen with Jon. but I am in a light spirit today...Eenie Meenie Chili-Beanie, The spirits will speak up... but my pali studies will continue on and on) mettaya, Ícaro > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- > p.s. Any 'gulping' you-know-whats? > > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah > abbott > wrote: > > Dear Friends, > > > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > > Time to do my practice. Zzz Zzz Zzz ... > > > ;-)) > > .... > > Back in Hong Kong after flying into a `direct hit' > typhoon > yesterday > > afternoon, unlike the other diverted flights. It > required a little > > ingenuity to get home as the city closes down at > these times and > everyone > > had rushed home many hours earlier and there were > no buses or > taxis to be > > found. > > > > Having earlier checked our bags in at Meiringen > (thx to the > amazing Swiss > > bus/rail/air bag service), with lots of time to > spare before a > late night > > flight, we'd taken a circular route to the airport > via a glacier > alpine > > pass and broke up our journey further by basking > in the sun by a > quiet > > lake catching up on all the posts which Jon had > printed out. I'd > like to > > specially welcome any new members and just to > thank all of you > who've been > > posting and given us such great holiday reading > with so many > prompts for > > wise reflection. > > > > I look forward to getting back into posting action > after the > weekend -- I > > don't have Jon's skill to ad lib on the run at > airports and bars . > His > > last Zzz Zzz ones to Herman and Howard were > literally on the run > and in > > semi -Zzz mode at Zurich airport as we'd filled in > our day so > beautifully > > we were very sleepy and had no time to spare. > > > > When the bags last seen at Meiringen amazingly > came through with > the other > > bags at Hong Kong, I could see immediately he must > have been in > Zzzz mode > > when he'd checked his in more than 24 hours > earlier, for there > sticking > > out of its padlock was its mislaid key, just like > a similar > episode in > > Burma as he reminded me. Now, before anyone > suggests this could > possibly > > indicate any lack of sati (mindfulness ) on his > part, let me > champion the > > Zzzz school of thought which says that even whilst > pursuing a > habit of > > forgetfully leaving keys in bag locks on flights > which surely > tests the > > honesty of all bag handlers -- all have passed > with flying colours > to date > > -- there can be satipatthana even at these times > and that it would > be > > wrong to think one has to turn a leaf or rather a > key or leave > one's Zzzz > > modes at home in order for there to be meditation > in action. > Looking > > forward to any Sizzly or Zizzly comments and > hopefully I won't be > so > > jet-lagged -- my excuse for now-- when I next > write. > > > > Metta, > > > > Sarah > > > > p.s. Christine, I swear we saw *and heard* a very > loud barking > deer trying > > to protect his `wife' and young from us, whistling > marmots, a > black and > > white spotted bumble bee, a large herd of > grey/brown cows with the > > strongest moos imaginable as they followed us down > a remote muddy > mountain > > track until they reached their calves lower down, > while we had > more than a > > passing reflecting on the Bahiya sutta and how `a > cow with a year- > old calf > > *collided* with Bahiya, but how Bahiya `attained > parinibbaana' at > the > > time(thx Herman!!)***, goats of all colours and > sizes, black > squirrels and > > wild chamoix on a mountain top....oh and Andrew, > lots and lots of > cats, > > all well looked after.....;-) > > > > *** "Wherein water, earth, heat and wind find no > footing, therein > stars do > > not sparkle nor is the sun manifest, therein the > moon does not > lustre, > > therein the gloom is not found. And when the > brahmin sage through > > sage-hood has experienced (this) for himself, then > he his freed > from form > > and formlessness, from happiness and dukkha".(The > Udaana,#10, `With > > Bahiya' (Masefield transl). 34646 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:07am Subject: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz Typo.... Typo...yawn... I could do better study English language, but anyway... The correct sentence is "Sorry Sarah... I could do better asking you how about were your travel to Meirireng with Jon, but I am in a light spirit today... eenie Meenie Chili beanie, the spirits will speak up...". And I will continue to study Pali too Mettaya, Ícaro 34647 From: icarofranca Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:23am Subject: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz Typo of Typo.... Typo Typo...yawn... > I could do better study English language, but anyway... --------------------------------------------------------------------- I could do better studying English anyway... ( No! No! No!...) Mettaya, Ícaro 34648 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] Every Paramattha dhamma can be clearly observed from experience ? Dear Tzungkuen I am just going through the posts in my inbox that came in while we were away. I hope you don't mind a late contribution on this thread! --- Mr Tzung-Kuen Wen wrote: > > Dear Dhamma friends > > Since many members in this group study Abhidhamma, I have a question > to ask. Can every paramattha dhamma listed in Abhidhamma texts can be > observed by everyone? This is a very pertinent question, one that will have a considerable bearing on one's idea of the 'practice'. > Ven. Pa-Auk Sayadaw of Burma is a well-known meditation teacher and > very learned in both Pali commentaries and Abhidhamma. Actually, his > meditation teaching is completely combined with Abhidhamma. > According to him, every paramattha dhammas, every citta and cetasika > including the bhavanga-citta, patisandhi-citta should be ¡¥really¡¦ > observed in meditation. (We only know the terms of Abhidhamma > intellectually.) He also teaches yogis to observe the namas and rupas in > the past and future existences in order to really understand the law of > Paticcasamupada. > I would like to know if anyone of you has any thoughts about this > question. I agree that in general we know the various dhammas only intellectually, not directly. However, I do not agree that all these dhammas can or should be known directly, by a person wishing to develop the path. To think that they should all be known directly would involve an idea of focussing on them all in turn at some stage or other. To my understanding of the teachings, it is not possible to come to know any dhamma directly by choosing to focus on it (I exclude here someone for whom insight has been developed to a high degree). Dhammas are not perceivable directly except by awareness or insight (the highest level of panna), and this means that they cannot be selected to be the object of (intended) insight. If this is attempted, then what seems like directly observing a chosen dhamma will not in fact be so. True awareness or insight is a high level of kusala that arises only by a complex and very occasional set of conditions. There is no suggestion in the teachings that enlightenment comes only when *all* dhammas have been directly known. According to the teachings, insight needs to be developed to the point that the fetters are broken (the fetters are the various kinds of akusala that bind us to continued existence). The overcoming of the fetters is achieved by seeing dhammas as they truly are, as anicca/dukkha/anatta, and this is the function of insight, but to my understanding this level is achieved without the need for *all* dhammas to be directly expereinced. That sort of knowlwedge is the province of a Buddha or the great disciples only. Of course, intellectual knowledge about all dhammas is useful and is a support for the development of understanding. But the arising of insight is not a self-directed kind of thinking, and both the time of its arising and the dhamma that is its object on any occasion are matters beyond our control. Jon 34649 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:06am Subject: Jhanas for lay-people Hi, James --- buddhatrue wrote: ... > Friend Nina, ... > Please > allow me to gently remind you again that the Buddha did encourage > householders to practice and achieve jhana: AN 109 "The Rapture of > Seculsion": > > "Then the householder Anathapindika, accompanied by five hundred lay > followers, approached the Blessed One…The Blessed One then said to > them: > `Householders, you attend upon the Sangha of monks with robes, > almsfood, lodgings and medicinal requisites for use in time of > sickness. But you should not remain satisfied merely with this. > Rather, householders, you should train yourselves thus: `How can we > enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?'33 > Thus should you train yourselves.'… > Note 33: Pavivekam pitim. AA: The rapture arising in dependence on > the first and second jhanas. > > Here the Buddha states that householders who are lay disciples > should find the means to practice and enter at least the first two > jhanas. Obviously, a householder isn't going to be able to practice > meditation all day, everyday (like a monk does), in order to achieve > this; therefore, one must be able to achieve the jhanas with just a > few hours of practice a day…or possibly going on a brief meditation > retreat(s) to achieve the jhanas. The Buddha wouldn't tell > householders to do something that they couldn't possibly do, right? > > Please continue with your wonderful posts on jhana and jhanacittas, > etc. They are very informative. However, I believe that you should > follow the Buddha's example and encourage householders to achieve > the first two jhanas as a worthwhile and quite possible goal. This is an interesting point. However, I would not characterize this sutta as encouraging householders to achieve the first two jhanas, since it does not contain the direct exhortation that is found elsewhere in the suttas where the Buddha urges monks to develop samatha and vipassana. The exhortation here is to *ask oneself how the mental factor of piti (rapture) that accompanies the first 2 jhanas can be developed*. This I would take to be a reference to the development of samatha, but not necessarily the attainment of jhana (although I'm not saying jhana is impossible for lay people, as there are instances of this in the suttas). The Dictionary of Pali Proper Names** describes this sutta as being about 'the inadvisability of being satisfied with providing requisites for monks without asking oneself if one also experiences the joy that is born of ease of mind (evidently a gentle warning to Anáthapindika)'. I think there is much to be said for this interpretation. We should also not forget that Anathapindika was already a sotapanna. Thanks again for raising this interesting point. Jon **http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/ay/anaathapindika.htm 34650 From: nidive Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:15am Subject: Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Hi Sarah & Christine, > "There are animals that feed on dung. They smell dung from a > distance and run to it, thinking: `We can eat, we can eat!' Just > as brahmins run to the smell of a sacrifice, thinking: > `We can eat, we can eat!' so too these animals that feed on dung > smell dung from a distance and run to it, thinking: `We can eat, > we can eat!' And what animals feed on dung? Fowls, pigs, *dogs*, > and jackals, and any other such animals. A fool who formerly > delighted in tastes here and did evil actions here, on the > dissolution of the body, after death, reappears in the company of > animals that feed on dung.... Yes, dogs do eat dung. I have seen dung-eating dogs, and they really love the dung. > "Bhikkhus, I could tell you in many ways about the animal kingdom, > so much so that it is hard to find a simile for the suffering in > the animal kingdom.... > .... > "Bhikkhus, the blind turtle would take less time to put his neck > into that yoke with a single hole in it than a fool, once gone to > perdition, would take to regain the human state, I say. Why is > that? Because there is no practising of the Dhamma there, no > practising of what is righteous, no doing of what is wholesome, > no performance of merit. there mutual devouring prevails, and > the slaughter of the weak." Mutual devouring & slaughter of the weak ... Watching Animal Planet convinces me of this fact. Watching Animal Planet can be an excellent means of teaching oneself about the Dhamma. Regards, Swee Boon 34651 From: Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Entity / was: some caution and non-advice Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/17/04 12:29:43 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Hi Howard, > > ----------------------- > H: >When it is said that all dhammas are anattá, I take that to > mean two things: Every phenomenon, conditioned or not, is a) > impersonal i.e., neither an ego-entity nor belonging to an ego- > entity, > ----------------------- > > Maybe I'm trying too hard to be clever, but it seems there is a > difference between a dhamma's being 'not a self' (not an ego-entity) > and its being 'empty of a self.' The latter is more meaningful to > my way of thinking. It means, "There is, here, only a [fleeting, > unsatisfactory] dhamma,: there is nothing more [that might be called > a self.]" --------------------------------------------------- Howard: There is a difference, but both are important. For example, it is common for people, especially intellectuals, introspective (but deluded) people, and people who have experienced jhanas, especially the 5th and 6th, without being aware of the Buddha's teachings, to think of consciousness as a self. That, for example, was Sati's error, which the Buddha cautioned about. --------------------------------------------------- > > The former is less meaningful, it simply states, "This dhamma is not > a self." What does that tell us other than not to call it by that > name? What's in a name? What would be the harm in calling a dhamma > a self? It might even be a beneficial exercise. It might be helpful > to see that the self is born, lives and dies in one moment. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: No, it's not just a matter of name, but of meaning. And the central meanings of being a self at the Buddha's time, it has been said, were of being substantial and independent and (often) permanent. In any case, by a "self" was not meant just something that appears or occurs or even (momentarily) "exists", but something that has substantial and independent existence. No self is born, lives, and dies in one moment. Whatever "is born, lives and dies in one moment" is not-self. In fact, all dhammas are not-self. Conditioned dhammas are fleeting, dependent events, and nibbana is an absence, the ultimate emptiness, and not a self. In any case, it is *not* beneficial to practice thinking in terms of "self" or "selves". All conditioned dhammas are exactly that - conditioned and dependent, and thus lacking in *own* being. ------------------------------------------------ > > ---------------- > H: >and b) without substantial core. > ---------------- > > If that means a core that carries over from one dhamma to the next, > then, yes, anatta does mean without a substantial core. But if a > substantial core refers simply to some part of a dhamma that arises, > persists and ceases all in one moment, then, I would think, it has > nothing to do with the anatta characteristic. > > ------------------- > H: >In the case of conditioned phenomena, part b) is due to the > phenomena not being self-existent, but arising due to the confluence > of other (similarly empty) conditions. > ------------------- > > I think it is imperative that we see a dhamma as existent. If that > means calling it "self-existent," then that's OK. > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I think that "existent" in the sense of actually occurring, is fine. I think that "self-existent" is anything but OK, but is a grave and harmful error. ------------------------------------------------- On the other > > hand, if we think there are ultimately no dhammas -- just a flux of > conditioning forces -- then how are we ever going to directly see > (experience) a dhamma? > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: There is a flux of conditioned events, not "forces", and it is certainly not easy to see these dhamma. When is the last time you isolated a dhamma? But I have not stated, nor do I state, that no dhammas arise. It is the *nature* of dhammas as "selves", as self-existent entities, that I am challenging and that I believe the Buddha challenged. Conditionality is a core teaching of the Buddha's. ------------------------------------------------ Against our `better judgement?' I don't think > > so. > > ------------------------ > H: >In the case of nibbana, its corelessness is due to its being a > mere absence - in fact, the ultimate emptiness. > ------------------------ > > Wouldn't anatta be the core of Nibbana? > --------------------------------------------- Howard: I find that to be nothing more than a playing with words. A "core" is a presence, not an absence. To reify nibbana is yet another grasping at "self". Relinquishment, relinquishment - doorway after doorway of relinquishment is what the practice of the Dhamma is, as I see it. Eventually, we must relinquish *everything*! -------------------------------------------- > > -------------------- > H: >The term 'entity' thus properly applies to no dhamma at all, as > I pointed out in my previous post. There actually are no entities. > Belief in entities is a form of atta-view, in my opinion. > -------------------- > > There are no entities in the sense of "things that persist from one > moment to the next." There are, most certainly, entities in the > sense of "things that exist in the present moment" – namely, > paramattha dhammas. ----------------------------------------------- Howard: But only so long as one realizes that such "existing in the present moment" is mere conditioned arising of an event, is this a useful view, as I see it. Of course dhammas occur - to deny it is to deny the direct evidence of the senses and is to adopt nihilism, but to grasp this occurrence as self-existence is to make the opposite error. ----------------------------------------------- > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34652 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 8:38am Subject: Re: Jhanas for lay-people Friend Jon, Jon: This is an interesting point. However, I would not characterize this sutta as encouraging householders to achieve the first two jhanas, since it does not contain the direct exhortation that is found elsewhere in the suttas where the Buddha urges monks to develop samatha and vipassana. James: By `samatha and vipassana' I am assuming you mean jhana. Do you mean the formulaic expression that the Buddha traditionally uses when he refers to the jhanas? Well, I don't know about that. Perhaps he doesn't use the same type of exhortation because his speech was being directed to householders. I am predominately going on the commentary to the sutta and the context (as well as Sariputta's explanation in the sutta). The commentary says that the Buddha meant the first two jhanas so I am going to assume that that is what he meant. Jon, I thought that you support the position that no one should question the commentaries?? Jon: The exhortation here is to *ask oneself how the mental factor of piti (rapture) that accompanies the first 2 jhanas can be developed*. This I would take to be a reference to the development of samatha, but not necessarily the attainment of jhana… James: Again, you are contradicting the commentary to this sutta. I thought I would never see the day!! LOL! ;-)) Jon: The Dictionary of Pali Proper Names** describes this sutta as being about 'the inadvisability of being satisfied with providing requisites for monks without asking oneself if one also experiences the joy that is born of ease of mind (evidently a gentle warning to Anáthapindika)'. I think there is much to be said for this interpretation. James: If there is much to be said for this interpretation then what do you have to say about it? As for myself, I believe that the `joy that is born of ease of mind' does mean the first two jhanas. Jon, please read the remainder of the sutta, where Sariputta reiterates what the Buddha is saying, and you will see that he was speaking very clearly about the first two jhanas. It cannot possibly be interpreted any other way. Jon: We should also not forget that Anathapindika was already a sotapanna. James: And?? (I am missing your point. Not only that, the Buddha's speech was directed to 500 householders as well, who may or may not have been sotapannas) Jon: Thanks again for raising this interesting point. James: You're quite welcome. But, please realize that this isn't just an `interesting point', this is an issue that is central to Buddhist practice. Metta, James 34653 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Hi Larry, op 17-07-2004 02:13 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: One last question, what is involved in > repressing the hindrances? Does jhana citta do this or is it panna? N: Each of the jhanafactors that are developed in jhana subdue the hindrances. It all makes sense. It is summarized in Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 36): Pañña knows how to develop the jhanafactors, knows the right conditions, and when jhana is attained the hindrances are subdued, but not eradicated. When one emerges from jhana they arise again. They are successively eradicated by the four lokuttara Path-consciousness. Then they never come back. L:How, > for example, is sensuous desire repressed? N: See above. L: The hindrances are sensuous desire, ill will, sloth and torpor, > restlessness and scruples, and sceptical doubt. Are these manifested > through discursive thinking? N: I think the above quote answers this. Or not yet? Each of them has its own characteristic and manifestation. Discursive thinking which is kusala, which thinks of the meditation subject goes against doubt. Doubt about jhana, about kusala and akusala, about the meditation subject, and this is not tranquil, it conditions distraction; but discursive thinking which is kusala goes against this, it keeps the citta on examining the object. L: Is rupa not a hindrance? What about > feeling? N: Clinging to rupa is a hindrance, not rupa itself which does not know anything. It can just be seen, heard, experienced through bodysense, etc. At the moment of jhanas rupa is not experienced. The defilements bound up with them do not arise. In the highest stage of rupajhana there is no breathing. But the release is only very temporary. Feeling: this accompanies each citta. When feeling accompanies akusala citta with the hindrances it is akusala. But pleasant mental feeling that is a jhanafactor is kusala, and it opposes restlessness and worry. The highest stage of rupajhana is with indifferent feeling, this is more refined. Nina. 34654 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Friend James, Thanks for your nice post. I know you do not like to be praised, but allow me to have anumodana dana, you should give me the opportunity for kusala. I was just thinking of you and mentioned to Lodewijk your lovely custom to address people with friend, using it as a reminder for metta, also when you do not agree. I appreciate this. Also Htoo is an example for me. He is not here now, he is away for two months. He keeps on writing what he thinks is useful, no matter there is response or not. He even smiled when another list asked him to remove his writings. Those are examples I can learn from. Now your good questions. op 17-07-2004 00:19 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: Quoted: < It is not a small matter to > develop >> jhana, it cannot be accomplished properly by practising just a few > hours a >> day. J: However, I have > noticed in a few posts where you have stated that jhana practice is > not meant for the householder, only for the monk. I have posted to > you about this before, but perhaps it has slipped your mind. N: I remember. Also Victor gave suttas about lay people and it was discussed. But your quote helps me to reflect again on Anathapindika's life. J: Please > allow me to gently remind you again that the Buddha did encourage > householders to practice and achieve jhana: AN 109 "The Rapture of > Seculsion": > > "Then the householder Anathapindika, accompanied by five hundred lay > followers, approached the Blessed One…The Blessed One then said to > them: > `Householders, you attend upon the Sangha of monks with robes, > almsfood, lodgings and medicinal requisites for use in time of > sickness. But you should not remain satisfied merely with this. > Rather, householders, you should train yourselves thus: `How can we > enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?'33 > Thus should you train yourselves.'… > Note 33: Pavivekam pitim. AA: The rapture arising in dependence on > the first and second jhanas. N: Yes, and Sarah or someone else mentioned more about the Co: about five wrong acts, such as killing a pig, and the disadvantages. When one misses when shooting one is depressed, and when one hits one is glad. The rapture arising in dependence on the first and second jhanas, is a kind of mental seclusion, paviveka. The Co says: sensuousness (kaama) in two meanings, namely the object of sensuousness and the defilement of sensuousness. As I said before, to whom gives the Buddha this advice? To an ariyan disciple, and Anathapindika is a sotapanna, he has attained the first stage of enlightenment. This is repeated by Sariputta: the ariyan disciple. He has eradicated the hindrance of doubt, but not the other hindrances. Anathapindika was very generous, but his possessions dwindled at the end of his life. The Co mentions unhappy feeling that arises when the materials that support dana etc. are not ready. He was giving while he did not have enough himself. It must have caused him worry. He worried that soon he might not be able to give anymore. The Buddha had a good reason to advice jhana to him so that he would have more kusala cittas, he wanted him to have rapture and gladness. An ariyan does not take jhanacitta for self. He may have had natural accumulations for it. Thus, he was not an ordinary householder, he was very special. And I think so it is with other laypeople in the Buddha's time who could attain jhana. Many laypeople had attained enlightenment. J: Here the Buddha states that householders who are lay disciples > should find the means to practice and enter at least the first two > jhanas. N: As I see it here he addressed Anapindika. We have to study each case and consider: was he an ariyan or not. He did not say: all householders. I think, Jon commented on this before. Ariyans, even sotapannas have developed a high degree of pañña and mindfulness, and this is most helpful. Also for jhana pañña must be so keen: knowing precisely the different cittas, when are there kusala cittas, when akusala cittas. This is already very difficult. Satipatthana helps so much. J: Obviously, a householder isn't going to be able to practice > meditation all day, everyday (like a monk does), in order to achieve > this; therefore, one must be able to achieve the jhanas with just a > few hours of practice a day…or possibly going on a brief meditation > retreat(s) to achieve the jhanas. The Buddha wouldn't tell > householders to do something that they couldn't possibly do, right? N: There certainly is a reason for his advice to this or that person. Again, we have to consider: to whom? J: Please continue with your wonderful posts on jhana and jhanacittas, > etc. They are very informative. However, I believe that you should > follow the Buddha's example and encourage householders to achieve > the first two jhanas as a worthwhile and quite possible goal. N: I think in this time it is different. Less ariyan disciples! After the jhanacitta has fallen away the hindrances come back immediately. I feel, what is the most important task to do: developing understanding that eradicates the wrong view of self. Otherwise one does everything, even kusala, for one's own sake. One takes it for self. And I realize: I know so little about myself. Yes, by reasoning, but not very precisely from moment to moment.I often do not realize when there is conceit, and it arises more often than I ever thought. I do not realize the countless moments of attachment, the subtle ones. But there are enough means to have kusala cittas with calm in daily life. Take the four meditation subjects for every occasion: metta (and I include also the other three brahmaviharas of compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity), Recollection of the Buddha, Mindfulness of death, Foulness of the Body. Reflection on the Dhamma can also be included. Personally, I do not feel the need to attain jhana with these subjects, I have no inclinations. The sotapanna has such strong confidence that it can come naturally to him to reflect on the Buddha with access concentration, but jhana cannot be attained with this subject. It is too deep. Nina. 34655 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Hello Philip, op 17-07-2004 00:35 schreef Philip op plnao@j...: Ph: And when and how does shame become worry (kukkucca) which Manual of > Abhidhamma describes as "worry or remorse of having done wrong" and > is an unwholesome cetasika. It seems we dwell in kukucca, but hiri > comes and goes more quickly. (Of course all cittas do, but what is it > about worry that makes us gnaw at it like a bone?) N: The feeling is so unpleasant, and it occurs again and again. That is why we notice it so much, it is coarse thus more easily noticable. Say, lobha with upekkha also arises countless times, but we do not notice it. Ph; So these moments of shame, wholesome shame. Just how do they > condition better behaviour next time? No need to think about it, but > have faith that in some way they do. N: Satipatthana can, remember, it is guarding the six doorways. It does the job. Ph: . I thiink > a lot about the eight worldy concerns. Actually, I wonder why they > are not much more central in the Buddha's, why they don't appear more > often. N: The Buddha speaks in many suttas about loss: through death. Someone who lost wife, husband, grandmother, relatives and friends. Loss of wealth and possessions as a result of kamma. Praise and blame: he teaches not being susceptible to these, all over in the suttas. Also the Jatakas give many practical advices for daily life. Happiness and misery: the Buddha speaks about dukkha in change: what is pleasant cannot stay. > N:> should not forget the Brahmaviharas, I learnt that from you. It > is a good >> idea to say to the other cyclist (but perhaps you did) that you are > sorry, >> or to make amends. > > Ph: I thought it, almost immediately afterwards. Not as good as > saying it but better than nothing. N: Maybe next time there are conditions saying it, one has to conquer one's pride and say it too. Satipatthana helps. But when are you going to Canada? Have a good trip. Nina. 34656 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 10:13am Subject: Re: [dsg]Mindfulness of Death Dear Herman (also Andrew, Ken H, Jon), Herman, how kind of you, thank you for your good wishes! We made a walk in the dunes and then went to a restaurant there. In that place we had our wedding dejeuner 52 years ago. We had laughter when making photos, but mindfulness of death was not absent. It gives pains but one should not evade reality. We memorized that most people who were present then are dead now, including my mother, brother and grandmother. We said that at that time we had no idea we would be sitting there again as two oldies. I said to Lodewijk, maybe this is the last time we are together here this year. Who knows? I was reminded to consider for a moment that we do not see a person, only what is visible and that we then think of a person. I said that this is so difficult to apply. Lodewijk finds it impossible to realize: there is no Nina, and he finds that it should be explained and formulated in another way. He becomes very emotional about this subject. I mentioned that we should not forget the Brahma viharas at the same time, these are directed towards persons. We then discussed Larry's questions on jhana. I think that the realization of the three characteristics, including anatta is the end of a long, long development. We cannot expect to grasp the Truth already. But, in order to start realizing the characteristics of nama and rupa, and their difference, one must already have confidence in the Way and the goal it is leading to. Thus, we must already have confidence in being aware now. Difficult points of Dhamma can be explained under difficult angles and it is helpful to hear other ways of explaining. Andrew and Ken H had a discussion, where Andrew was wondering about Ken H's explanations, he was wondering whether Ken went too far. Please, can you both help me now? I hope Jon can also add something. Lodewijk never likes it to hear about seeing and visible object, and not seeing persons, he gets very irritated. Herman, yes, we make music for my father and dog twice a week and have to rehearse for this. It helps him to get back to reality when his mind wanders. Kind regards and appreciation, Nina. op 17-07-2004 04:52 schreef Herman Hofman op hhofman@t...: > Hearty congratulations on your fifty-second wedding anniversary. 34657 From: Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 7:01am Subject: A Resolution of Determined Effort Hi, Nina, James, and all - With regard to jhanas: I am no Anathapindika - far from it. However, in the past I have had a "taste" of jhana, I may have some inclination towards that, and, for several reasons including all the benefits of jhana stated by the Buddha plus private reasons of my own, I have made the strong determination to do all I can to attain and master the jhanas to whatever extent possible. I have realized that my now being retired, except for the teaching of a single course during the six-week summer session (which I may do every summer), affords me a wonderful opportunity that should not be squandered. I have set about doing two to three one-hour anapanasati meditations every day, except when impossible. And I am determined to maintain a great regularity in this, so that kusala vipaka may result. This practice will be "something extra". I will not be giving up other useful activities such as Dhamma study, ongoing mindfulness and guarding the senses, and regular physical exercise, along with all the normal activities of family and social life. What I will give up are worthless (and especially harmful) activities, and replace them with time spent in dedicated lay practice. I do believe that even in this age of decline, much progress can be made if opportunities are made good use of. May my determination falter? May my resolution fail? Of course! We are weak. But I hope to avoid such faltering, and my publically declaration of intent may help strengthen my resolution. I hope also that it encourages others! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34658 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:04pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Hi Swee Boon, I agree with your post. And as I watch the news on TV sometimes, I am led to think that in the human realm mutual devouring prevails, and the slaughter of the weak. :-) Happily this does not always include the shedding of blood, but each one of us that earns their livelihood by means of the profit motive creates conditions all day long whereby the weak and inefficient are created to be devoured. Herman > "Bhikkhus, the blind turtle would take less time to put his neck > into that yoke with a single hole in it than a fool, once gone to > perdition, would take to regain the human state, I say. Why is > that? Because there is no practising of the Dhamma there, no > practising of what is righteous, no doing of what is wholesome, > no performance of merit. there mutual devouring prevails, and > the slaughter of the weak." Mutual devouring & slaughter of the weak ... Watching Animal Planet convinces me of this fact. Watching Animal Planet can be an excellent means of teaching oneself about the Dhamma. Regards, Swee Boon 34659 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:22pm Subject: RE: [dsg] A Resolution of Determined Effort Dear Howard, I am very encouraged by your resolution, and by your gentle but solid public statement. May you feel the pleasure that is not felt. And please, keep sharing your insights. Wishing you well Herman -----Original Message----- From: upasaka@a... [mailto:upasaka@a...] Sent: Sunday, 18 July 2004 4:01 AM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] A Resolution of Determined Effort Hi, Nina, James, and all - With regard to jhanas: I am no Anathapindika - far from it. However, in the past I have had a "taste" of jhana, I may have some inclination towards that, and, for several reasons including all the benefits of jhana stated by the Buddha plus private reasons of my own, I have made the strong determination to do all I can to attain and master the jhanas to whatever extent possible. I have realized that my now being retired, except for the teaching of a single course during the six-week summer session (which I may do every summer), affords me a wonderful opportunity that should not be squandered. I have set about doing two to three one-hour anapanasati meditations every day, except when impossible. And I am determined to maintain a great regularity in this, so that kusala vipaka may result. This practice will be "something extra". I will not be giving up other useful activities such as Dhamma study, ongoing mindfulness and guarding the senses, and regular physical exercise, along with all the normal activities of family and social life. What I will give up are worthless (and especially harmful) activities, and replace them with time spent in dedicated lay practice. I do believe that even in this age of decline, much progress can be made if opportunities are made good use of. May my determination falter? May my resolution fail? Of course! We are weak. But I hope to avoid such faltering, and my publically declaration of intent may help strengthen my resolution. I hope also that it encourages others! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34660 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Friend Nina, Nina: Thanks for your nice post. I know you do not like to be praised, but allow me to have anumodana dana, you should give me the opportunity for kusala. James: It gives you kusala to do something you know I don't like?? Hehehe…just kidding. I don't mind praise as long as it is genuine and heartfelt. Nina: Yes, and Sarah or someone else mentioned more about the Co: about five wrong acts, such as killing a pig, and the disadvantages. When one misses when shooting one is depressed, and when one hits one is glad. James: Huh? The commentary also discusses shooting pigs? That is weird. I don't follow you here. Nina: The rapture arising in dependence on the first and second jhanas, is a kind of mental seclusion, paviveka. The Co says: sensuousness (kaama) in two meanings, namely the object of sensuousness and the defilement of sensuousness. James: Thank you for this helpful information. I will ponder more on the separation between the object of sensousness and the defilement of sensuousness. Nina: As I said before, to whom gives the Buddha this advice? To an ariyan disciple, and Anathapindika is a sotapanna, he has attained the first stage of enlightenment. James: Now, here is where you are wrong. The Buddha gives this advice to a group of householders, 500 householders, not just Anathapindika. Nina: This is repeated by Sariputta: the ariyan disciple. He has eradicated the hindrance of doubt, but not the other hindrances. Anathapindika was very generous, but his possessions dwindled at the end of his life. The Co mentions unhappy feeling that arises when the materials that support dana etc. are not ready. He was giving while he did not have enough himself. It must have caused him worry. He worried that soon he might not be able to give anymore. The Buddha had a good reason to advice jhana to him so that he would have more kusala cittas, he wanted him to have rapture and gladness. An ariyan does not take jhanacitta for self. He may have had natural accumulations for it. Thus, he was not an ordinary householder, he was very special. And I think so it is with other laypeople in the Buddha's time who could attain jhana. Many laypeople had attained enlightenment. James: This is a very interesting theory but the only way I would agree with you is if you chould show me that all 500 of those householders who accompanied Anathapindika were also sotapannas. After all, the Buddha addressed them all in this sutta and so did Sariputta. If this message was meant for Anathapindika alone, the Buddha would have taken him aside and had given him an individual sutta, right? The Buddha would often give suttas to individuals. He was tireless in giving the right message to the right person, even if it meant extra work for him. Obviously, this was a message that the Buddha wanted this general group of householders to hear. The Buddha would not have been duplicitous. Nina: As I see it here he addressed Anapindika. James: Why do you see that? He said, "Householders…" not "Anapindika…" Nina: We have to study each case and consider: was he an ariyan or not. He did not say: all householders. James: What? Oh my goodness, this is so simple! He was addressing that group of 500 householders and them only. He was not making a declaration about all householders. He wasn't giving a press conference on CNN or something! ;-)) But one can assume that what he said to those householders apply to all householders who are Buddhist; unless you can demonstrate that all of those householders were sotapannas. Nina: I think, Jon commented on this before. Ariyans, even sotapannas have developed a high degree of pañña and mindfulness, and this is most helpful. Also for jhana pañña must be so keen: knowing precisely the different cittas, when are there kusala cittas, when akusala cittas. This is already very difficult. Satipatthana helps so much. James: Nina, isn't it true that ascetics in the Buddha's time were able to achieve the jhanas and they weren't sotapannas? Didn't they believe in an eternal self and rites and rituals? Where is it said that one must be a sotapanna to achieve jhana? Nina: Take the four meditation subjects for every occasion: metta (and I include also the other three brahmaviharas of compassion, sympathetic joy and equanimity), Recollection of the Buddha, Mindfulness of death, Foulness of the Body. Reflection on the Dhamma can also be included. Personally, I do not feel the need to attain jhana with these subjects, I have no inclinations. James: Nina, you don't need to know the reason why or to even feel the inclination to do so. The only thing you need is faith in the Buddha and to know that he suggested/urged his followers to achieve jhana. Personally, I don't know all the reasons for why but I believe that jhana prepares the mind for insight. If the mind isn't prepared, insight won't arise. I don't know how jhana prepares the mind for insight but it must or the Buddha wouldn't have taught it so strongly. I have faith in the Buddha. That is enough reason for me to practice jhana. Nina: The sotapanna has such strong confidence that it can come naturally to him to reflect on the Buddha with access concentration, but jhana cannot be attained with this subject. It is too deep. James: Yes, I agree that jhana cannot be obtained with reflection on the Buddha. Nina. Metta, James 34661 From: Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 0:38pm Subject: Re: [dsg] A Resolution of Determined Effort Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/17/04 7:13:49 PM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > Dear Howard, > > I am very encouraged by your resolution, and by your gentle but solid > public statement. May you feel the pleasure that is not felt. And > please, keep sharing your insights. > > Wishing you well > > > Herman > ======================== SO kind! Thank you, my friend. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34662 From: Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 4:55pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Hi Nina, Thanks, this is very interesting. I'll give it a try and see how it works. "N: Each of the jhanafactors that are developed in jhana subdue the hindrances. It all makes sense. It is summarized in Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (T.A. p. 36): " Larry 34663 From: Andrew Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Mindfulness of Death Dear Nina Our congratulations also to you and Lodewijk on your anniversary. I do enjoy reading your posts about discussions with Lodewijk because I invariably share his attitudes and difficulties of seeing the truth of the Teachings. I don't attribute this to the Teachings being wrong, but rather to their extraordinary depth and profundity. --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, nina van gorkom wrote: > Dear Herman (also Andrew, Ken H, Jon), > [snip] I was reminded to consider for a moment that we do not > see a person, only what is visible and that we then think of a person. I > said that this is so difficult to apply. Lodewijk finds it impossible to > realize: there is no Nina, and he finds that it should be explained and > formulated in another way. He becomes very emotional about this subject. Andrew: I find that it suits my western upbringing to consider this topic by looking at rupa. I can easily accept that "my body" is in a constant state of flux - as particles leave and join with each and every moment of time. So, "my body" at Time A is truly different from "my body" at Time B - this is not to deny that there is some continuity (Pali: santana?). I can also easily accept that, after death, "my body" breaks down into its constituent parts and is recycled. Turning to nama, I see it too as a continuity of flux. Whilst we talk about "Nina" and "Andrew" and "Lodewijk", these are conventional designations. But like rupa, there is no point of time when you can actually put your finger on something permanent and say "that's me". Trying to find that "me" is the cause of dukkha. Nama muddles me when it is described in terms like "love" and "hate" because I associate these terms so strongly with a self. If I replace those terms with "more scientific" concepts like attraction and repulsion (in the way that opposite magnetic poles attract and like poles repel), I think I can better glimpse an impersonal conditioned process or flux. The intertwined nama and rupa *are* not- self and impermanent. That for me is the purpose of the Dhamma - not to get rid of "Andrew" or "Lodewijk" but to ever so slowly awaken me to the truth of what's going on. It's quite beyond my comprehension to know what a being is like who sees things as they truly are (i.e. a being who understands there are no "beings" as I perceive of them) - morally flawless and no inclination to cling at all. But I tell myself that reality has to win out. Just as my predecessors had to admit that the Earth wasn't at the centre of the solar system when their knowledge increased, so too one day I will have to completely accept anatta. Sometimes I wish that day would come soon - but that is just moha and lobha at work! "I" can't force anything. That's all a description of where I am at - and I am sure that includes lots of ignorance. Maybe Lodewijk can relate to my state. I am yet to master the technicalities of Abhidhamma but am extremely grateful for the opportunity to read posts by you, Nina, and others on DSG. Best wishes to all Andrew 34664 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:20pm Subject: LISTING POSTS re 'Bhikkhu Bodhi:The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple - Pali Canon' Hello dsg-ers, This is the complete article by Bhikkhu Bodhi on "The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas", previously posted in twenty short divisions, with explanatory notes. Jhana and Vipassana practitioners may find it of particular interest. One of the conclusions Bhikkhu Bodhi puts forward in post 32497 below, is: "It thus seems likely that stream-enterers and once-returners desirous of advancing to non-returnership in that very same life must attain at least the first jhaana as a basis for developing insight. Those content with their status, prepared to let the "law of the Dhamma" take its course, generally will not strive to attain the jhaanas. Instead, they settle for the assurance that they are bound to reach the final goal within a maximum of seven more lives passed in the human and celestial worlds." Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (1) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33870 Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (2) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33898 Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (3) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33914 Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (4) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33943 Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (5) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33961 Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (6) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34058 Bodhi: The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (7) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34109 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (8) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34139 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (9) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34163 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (10) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34171 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (11) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34180 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (12) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34183 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (13) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34202 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (14) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34206 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (15) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34232 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (16) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34241 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (17) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34261 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (18) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34268 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (19) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34293 The Jhaanas and the Lay Disciple According to the Paali Suttas (20) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/34297 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34665 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 5:38pm Subject: Re: Dependent Origination and Kamma Hey Howard, Where did you get 'subjectivity/obectivity' for namarupa? PEACE E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the cycle of > dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly how and where > kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. I believe that kamma is related to > paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, the sankhara phase, and the > bhava phase. It occurs to me that the sankhara phase, the phase of impulsion, > amounts to "conception"/sowing of kammic seeds, and that the bhava phase amounts > to "gestation"/reaping of kammic seeds. Maintaining the fetus symbolism, > upadana is a requisite condition for bhava just as attachment of fetus to womb is > needed in order for gestation to occur and subsequent birth of "new self" to > follow. From this perspective, moment by moment, mental acts of > avijja-conditioned cetana (i.e., kamma) constitute the planting of kammic seeds that only > commence ripening in the bhava phase when needed conditions including attachment > are in place. > So, the cycle of dependent origination as a samsaric process repeated > millions of times in a moment within the mind could be viewed as follows: > > Ignorance -> Kammic Sowing -> Subjectivity <-> Objectivity -> Sense-Door > Conduits > (Sankhara) > > -> Contact -> Feeling -> Craving -> Clinging -> Kammic Reaping > > (Bhava) > > -> Birth (of renewed Ignorance) -> Death and Decay [and the whole mass of > suffering] > (Jara-marana) > > Thoughts anyone? > > With metta, > Howard 34666 From: Date: Sat Jul 17, 2004 3:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi, Eric - In a message dated 7/17/04 10:20:48 PM Eastern Daylight Time, ericlonline@y... writes: > Hey Howard, > Where did you get 'subjectivity/obectivity' for namarupa? > > PEACE > > E > ====================== Rendering 'vi~n~nana' as "subjectivity", and 'namarupa' as "objectivity" is my usage. I gave a series of posts explaining this a few weeks ago. No one is "to blame" for it but me! ;-) A synopsis of the contents of those posts is given at the end of this post. With metta, Howard ********************************************* Ignorance-conditioned sankhara is a requisite condition for vi~n~nana, and that in turn conditions, in steps, all the remaining links of paticcasamupada, leading to eventual rebirth. But a living arahant, just as a worldling, has experience. If that experience is vi~n~nana, then that vi~n~nana is condition for namarupa, and that for salayatana, and so on down the line, leading to rebirth!! But an arahant is not reborn. Now, in fact, the negative reading of paticcasamupada is that with the cessation of ignorance, there is the cessation of fabrications, and thence the cessation of vi~n~nana, etc. Now, the Buddha had full and final cessation of ignorance, hence of fabrications, and hence of vi~n~nana. So, the Buddha, even the living Buddha, was freed of vi~n~nana. But clearly he wasn't unconscious! So, it seems to me that vi~n~nana must be *defiled* awareness, an awareness infected by the sense of self. (And that makes sense, arising as it does with ignorance-conditioned sankhara as condition.) It must be an awareness in which there is the seeming of a knowing subject, and, correspondingly, a known object. (A knowing subject is an "I".) It seems to me that patticcasamupada describes the conditioned life of a non-arahant and the mechanism for the arising of suffering in such a being. It also shows the means of escape from suffering by such a being, the breaking of the chain of dependent arising fully and for good, which likewise marks the radical transformation from non-arahant to arahant. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------ It occurs to me that understanding vi~n~nana as subjectivity (i.e., the sense of a knowing subject) and namarupa as objectivity (i.e., the sense of objects known by a knowing subject) helps explain certain things not easily understood otherwise. One of these is the following segment of the 12-fold linkage of dependent arising: vi~n~nana --> namarupa --> salayatana If one wishes to interpret dependent origination not just in the 3-lifetime mode, but also in the "right-now" mode, this segment seems problematical. If vi~n~nana is merely awareness and namarupa is merely namic and rupic phenomena (in the context of dependent origination), why is salayatana given as consequence? It would seem clear that sense-door activation should only be a necessary condition *for* awareness, not a consequence of it! But now think of this in the following terms: Vi~n~nana is subjectivity, namarupa is objectivity, and salayatana constitutes the sense doors that provide the connection/conduit between the two. A doorway or conduit between two things is dependent on those things. Without subjectivity and objectivity, there can't be a conduit between them. And, in fact, this goes a long way towards helping one understand the "unraveling" aspect of dependent origination: From the cessation of ignorance (the propensity to I-making), comes the cessation of sankharic construction, from which comes the cessation of subjectivity, from which comes the cessation of objectivity, from which comes the cessation of conduits between subjectivity and objectivity, from which comes the cessation of contact, from which comes the cessation of self-oriented feeling, from which comes the cessation of craving, from which comes the cessation of clinging, from which comes the cessation of becoming, from which comes the cessation of birth, and death, and the whole mass of suffering. Every arahant, and most especially, the Buddha, went through this entire eradication process. But the Buddha still experienced, and he still felt. Is that a contradiction? I think it is not. In the Buddha there was no ignorance, hence no sankharic construction (in particular no self-oriented volition), hence no subjectivity and objectivity, hence no conduit between such, hence no contact, no craving, no clinging, no becoming, no birth, no death, and no suffering. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- And yet one more thing: In what way does sankhara serve as condition for vi~n~nana? If vi~n~nana were just awareness/experience, it is unclear why volition or other formational processes would be required conditions. But if vi~n~nana is subjectivity (i.e., the sense of a knowing self), it is clear, I think, that this arises due to ignorance-conditioned sankharic construction. ---------------------------------------------------------------------------- I don't interpret the eradication of the entire process [Note: This refers to the cessation phase of paticcasamupada] as ending experience. What has ceased are the following: ignorance, ignorance-based sankharic construction (not the neutral volitions of an arahant), subjectivity and objectivity (not experience unpolarized into apparent subject and apparent object), the sense-door conduits, contact, self-oriented feeling (not impersonal pleasant, unpleasant, and neutral feelings), craving, clinging, becoming, birth and death and suffering. Don't forget that as I interpret it, contact is the coming together of subjectivity and objectivity via a conduit of a particular sort (visual, auditory, etc). When subjectivity and objectivity are gone, so are the conduits and the contact. But the six-sensory realm of experience continues. Experience as it actually is is direct and nondual, with there being no subject to be connected to objects - and without subjective knowing, there is no objective known. Are there still sights and sounds etc? Sure, but they are not objects of a knowing subject. They are, so-to-speak, self-experiencing; actually, they are merely "present". When the experience of no-self occurs, there is no sense of self and no objects either - but experience continues. When the items in the 12-link chain are understood as I have presented them, I believe that both the concocting direction of paticcasamupada and the unraveling direction make sense. ******************************************** /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34667 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 0:53am Subject: For those going on the India Pilgrimage in 16/31 October 2004 Dear Group, A little something to start us thinking .... Pilgrimage to Buddhist India http://www.buddhanet.net/e-learning/buddhistworld/pilgrimage.htm Map of India in the Buddha's Time from Ven Pesala's site. http://www.aimwell.org/Photos/India/india.html The Buddhist Archaeology of India by Victor Gunasekara http://www.uq.net.au/slsoc/bsq/fr_bsqndx1.htm metta and peace, Christine (definitely not excited) ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34668 From: Philip Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Hello Nina, and all > Ph: And when and how does shame become worry (kukkucca) which Manual of > > Abhidhamma describes as "worry or remorse of having done wrong" and > > is an unwholesome cetasika. It seems we dwell in kukucca, but hiri > > comes and goes more quickly. (Of course all cittas do, but what is it > > about worry that makes us gnaw at it like a bone?) > N: The feeling is so unpleasant, and it occurs again and again. That is why > we notice it so much, it is coarse thus more easily noticable. Say, lobha > with upekkha also arises countless times, but we do not notice it. Ph: How about sadness? It occured to me today that I don't know where sadness fits in amoung cetasikas. It is akusala, certainly, but all so natural. I feel sad every day now when I think of parting some day from Naomi. We will get old - if we're lucky- and get sick and die. This isn't a fear, really, just a kind of sadness. This is attachment, ignorance, all caught up in self-view? Again, the worldly concerns. Sadness has replaced worry. I don't worry about the future, or fear it. I just feel a kind of sadness. But I see it. It comes and goes. What is sadness in Dhamma terms? Actually, you needn't answer that, Nina. I would like to think about the answer myself. > Ph: . I thiink > > a lot about the eight worldy concerns. Actually, I wonder why they > > are not much more central in the Buddha's, why they don't appear more > > often. > N: The Buddha speaks in many suttas about loss: through death. Someone who > lost wife, husband, grandmother, relatives and friends. Loss of wealth and > possessions as a result of kamma. Praise and blame: he teaches not being > susceptible to these, all over in the suttas. Also the Jatakas give many > practical advices for daily life. Happiness and misery: the Buddha speaks > about dukkha in change: what is pleasant cannot stay. Ph: Yes. I suppose I was wondering why they are not referred to explicitly more often, and laid out in one sutta. I'm sure they are somewhere. I haven't come across it yet. But I will. But no worries. I am very busy in the Samyutta Nikaya these days. N:> > But when are you going to Canada? Have a good trip. Ph: Thank you. I'm not going until the 28th. I signed off DSG in the meantime in order to work on a juvenile novel (very spooky and gothic!) that has been on the back burner, but my interest in Dhamma is still all consuming. It is just about all I think about from morning to night. As Rob K told me, there is no use trying to stop that. Now it's the SN. Again, I really feel grateful that I acquired a basic, beginner's knowledge of Abhidhamma before studying SN. So much more rewarding that way, in my opinion. No need to reply to this, Nina. I may not be back here for a few days. And then again I might! :) Oh, and happy anniversary to you and Lodewijk. And welcome back Sarah and Jon. And congratulations, Howard, on your resolution. Metta, Phil 34669 From: Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 3:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Hi, Phil, and Nina and Lodewijk - In a message dated 7/18/04 9:34:31 AM Eastern Daylight Time, plnao@j... writes: > Oh, and happy anniversary to you and Lodewijk. And welcome back > Sarah and Jon. And congratulations, Howard, on your resolution. > > ======================== Thanks, Phil! And Nina and Lodewijk: My warmest congratulations to you both! May you have wonderful lifetimes together of love, devotion, and sharing of the Dhamma! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34670 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Jhanas for lay-people Hi, James --- buddhatrue wrote: > Friend Jon, > > Jon: This is an interesting point. However, I would not characterize > this sutta as encouraging householders to achieve the first two > jhanas, since it does not contain the direct exhortation that is > found elsewhere in the suttas where the Buddha urges monks to > develop samatha and vipassana. > > James: By `samatha and vipassana' I am assuming you mean jhana. Do > you mean the formulaic expression that the Buddha traditionally uses > when he refers to the jhanas? Well, I don't know about that. What I had in mind is the following from the Sallekha ('Effacement') Sutta M. 8 delivered to the Ven Maha Cunda, (MLDB, Bhikkhu Bodhi trans): 18. "What should be done for his disciples out of compassion by a teacher who seeks their welfare and has compassion for them, that I have done for you, Cunda. These are the roots of trees, these empty huts. Meditate, Cunda, do not delay or else you will regret it later. This is our instruction to you." This (or a similar) passage has been discussed before and, if I recall correctly, the Pali term here translated as 'meditate' is 'jhaayati' meaning something like 'to develop the mind' and refers to both samatha bhavana and vipassana bhavana. As you can see, this is a much more direct and explicit reference than the passage we are now considering. > Perhaps he doesn't use the same type of exhortation because his > speech was being directed to householders. I am predominately going > on the commentary to the sutta and the context (as well as > Sariputta's explanation in the sutta). The commentary says that the > Buddha meant the first two jhanas so I am going to assume that that > is what he meant. Jon, I thought that you support the position that > no one should question the commentaries?? You are correct in that my interest lies in the texts and commentaries, and I am not much interested in speculation outside that. Please note that I am not disputing the commentary note to the effect that the term 'rapture of seclusion' refers to 'the rapture arising in dependence on the first and second jhanas'. However, there is more to the sutta than that! Consider the context in which those words appear: "You should train yourselves thus: `How can we enter and dwell from time to time in the rapture of seclusion?'" This is not the direct kind of exhortation found in M. 8 mentioned above. Like any sutta passage, this passage has to be read having regard to (a) the occasion on which it was given, including the particular audience to whom it was addressed, (b) the language used, and (c) references elsewhere in the texts. As regards references elsewhere in the texts, are there any other references you know that seem to encourage lay people to develop the jhanas? Without the full commentary I can't add anything further, but I am attracted to the explanation given by the Dictionary of Pali Proper Names that the sutta concerns ''the inadvisability of being satisfied with providing requisites for monks without asking oneself if one also experiences the joy that is born of ease of mind". Personally, I do not at this stage read the passage as an exhortation to lay people generally to develop the jhanas. ... > Jon: We should also not forget that Anathapindika was already a > sotapanna. > > James: And?? (I am missing your point. Not only that, the Buddha's > speech was directed to 500 householders as well, who may or may not > have been sotapannas) That's right. Unfortunately, without the full commentary we can only speculate. > Jon: Thanks again for raising this interesting point. > > James: You're quite welcome. But, please realize that this isn't > just an `interesting point', this is an issue that is central to > Buddhist practice. I very much agree with this observation. It would be nice if we could find some further sutta or commentary material on the point. Jon 34671 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:16am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Nina and Lodewijk, Phil, Howard and All --- Philip wrote: > ... > Oh, and happy anniversary to you and Lodewijk. And welcome back > Sarah and Jon. And congratulations, Howard, on your resolution. Like Howard, I'd like to thank you for your kind words, and add my congratulations and best wishes to Nina and Lodewijk. And to Howard, I appreciate your sincere committment to the dhamma. Cheers, Jon 34672 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg]Mindfulness of Death Dear Andrew, Thank you very much for your good wishes and for your post I find very sincere and helpful. I have printed it out for Lodewijk. He also appreciates it very much. Just now I heard something on my MP 3 that fits your post. A. Sujin says: It is good you stress that it is such a gradual process before we really understand anatta. Saying: there is no Lodewijk, is too fast, it can rebuke people. Then you say: Very realistic. Good to realize that we are full of ignorance. With appreciation, Nina op 18-07-2004 02:07 schreef Andrew op athel60@t...: .... That for me is the purpose of the Dhamma - not to get rid of "Andrew" > or "Lodewijk" but to ever so slowly awaken me to the truth of what's > going on. It's quite beyond my comprehension to know what a being is > like who sees things as they truly are (i.e. a being who understands > there are no "beings" as I perceive of them) - morally flawless and > no inclination to cling at all.>.... 34673 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Friend James, You are right, the Buddha addressed also the five hundred Layfollowers. All I know is that the numbers of people, also layfollowers, who attained enlightenment, even the first stage, was very high. As I said, I find very significant the repetition of: the ariyan disciple, also by Sariputta. Shooting of pigs was just an example given in the Co to show the disadvantages of akusala kamma, it brings more clinging and aversion. Perhaps you did not follow B.B.'s sutta analysis about jhanas, you were away at that time. He found that it was not said that people should first develop jhana in order to reach the first and second stages of enlightenment. See Christine's post today! I go further than him, but that does not matter now. What strikes me always is the Buddha's great compassion, taking into consideration people's different inclinations. In the Co. it is often said, he thought of people's capacity of being led to enlightenment. I cannot see any rules in the suttas, that you have to do this first, then that. I do not feel like debating about jhana. We know ahead of time what people will say, don't we? So many posts we had already on jhana. Besides, I have to concentrate now on the next Tiika texts: lokuttara cittas and the Triple Gateway leading to enlightenment, and then plunging down again to sense sphere cittas, craving and the three unwholesome roots. I have my hands full. But an adventurous journey, going across all over to paralel texts and other commentaries. Nina. op 18-07-2004 01:07 schreef buddhatrue op buddhatrue@y...: >(snipped) > James: Now, here is where you are wrong. The Buddha gives this > advice to a group of householders, 500 householders, not just > Anathapindika. 34674 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 11:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Resolution of Determined Effort Hi Howard, Lodewijk and I wish you all the best. I do hope that you do not loose out of sight the Abhidhamma you took up. I also hope that you will have the opportunity to visit Acharn Sujin and that you may join one of our India pilgrimages. Lodewijk says that even though he has great difficulty in understanding the fine points of the Dhamma he is always very much impressed by the holy places. Nina. op 17-07-2004 20:01 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > With regard to jhanas: I am no Anathapindika - far from it. 34675 From: buddhatrue Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 1:54pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Friend Nina, Nina: Perhaps you did not follow B.B.'s sutta analysis about jhanas, you were away at that time. He found that it was not said that people should first develop jhana in order to reach the first and second stages of enlightenment. See Christine's post today! I go further than him, but that does not matter now. James: Nina, the fact that you go further than B.B.- that you go so far as to state that householders cannot and should not practice jhana- is what I was disputing about. I have no disputes with B.B.'s article and I think it is a masterpiece of research and analysis. Importantly, he doesn't state that lay disciples can't and shouldn't practice jhana. There is more that I could say but I am considering your next statement: Nina: I do not feel like debating about jhana. We know ahead of time what people will say, don't we? So many posts we had already on jhana. James: Okay, that is fine with me. We can consider this discussion closed. Metta, James 34676 From: nori Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 2:30pm Subject: [dsg] Re: On the topic of Sensation, Pleasure and Pain Hi Victor, Jon, Howard, and Dhamma friends, Thank you for your valuable feedback. metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon (and Nori) - > > > > In a message dated 7/14/04 11:29:49 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > > jonoabb@y... writes: > ... > > > Neither of these 2 options would be my idea of practice in accordance > > with > > > the dhamma. It is much more subtle and complex than this. ---snip 34677 From: Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 5:02pm Subject: Vism.XIV 88 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 88. I.D. The 'supramundane' is fourfold (18)-(21) by association with the four paths. So firstly, profitable consciousness itself is of twenty-one kinds. [454] 34678 From: nori Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:35pm Subject: Is sensual pleasure and stimulation necessary for a healthy life? Hi Dhamma friends, I was curious to know what everyones opinions were on this? It is a well known fact that infants that are held, touched, cuddled, caressed and gently massaged (A.K.A. - Loved) grow up to be healthier children with improved mental function and healthier immune systems. "...It is essential -- essential to their health and well-being. According to a research study in the 1940's, babies who were not touched and cuddled often died from lack of human contact. According to one renown child psychologist, touch stimulates the newborn's physical as well as emotional health and may indeed be necessary to stimulate the release of certain neurohormones and chemicals that promote health, sharpen mental functions, and build a healthier immune system." - excerpt from internet article The Dhamma - as taught by Gotama tells us that it is possible to be free from sensual desire; That one could dwell content in renunciation from sensual pleasures and stimulation. But then considering the necessity of sensual stimulation in infants and children I ask: ... is it ever truly possible to be free from the desire of sensual pleasure and stimulation? with metta, nori 34679 From: Andrew Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 8:58pm Subject: Re: Is sensual pleasure and stimulation necessary for a healthy life? Dear Nori Infants deprived of sensual stimulation grow up damaged. Infants given lots of love and cuddles grow up to watch their dear parents age, get ill and die, and then do so themselves. Nori: considering the necessity of sensual stimulation in infants > and children I ask: > > ... is it ever truly possible to be free from the desire of sensual > pleasure and stimulation? IMHO the answer to your question is "No, not while one is in samsara". All the children you have referred to, loved and unloved alike, are in samsara. I note that the anagami (non-returner) still has- craving for fine-material existence; craving for immaterial existence; conceit; restlessness; and ignorance, BUT has abandoned sensous craving (kama raga). Best wishes Andrew 34680 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Q. Vis. XIV, 86, 87 Hi, James --- buddhatrue wrote: > Friend Nina, ... > James: Nina, the fact that you go further than B.B.- that you go so > far as to state that householders cannot and should not practice > jhana- is what I was disputing about. I believe you overstate Nina's position here. I do not recall any such comments from her, only that the difficulty of jhana is greatly underestimated, and that the conditions for its attainment are much more suited to a person leading the monk's life than to a lay person. The development of samatha requires panna, that of course being a high level of kusala. Yet the generally held view nowadays seems to be that samatha is simply a matter of concentrating on the right object (such as breath). I believe that view is greatly in error, and leads to much wrong practice. Jon 34681 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg]welcome and thanks Dear Sarah and Jon, welcome back, I am glad you are back. Thank you for your kind wishes, Nina. op 18-07-2004 17:16 schreef Jonothan Abbott op jonoabb@y...:> ... and add my > congratulations and best wishes to Nina and Lodewijk. 34682 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:21pm Subject: Perseverance in Dhamma on zolag. Dear group, just an announcement from Alan Weller: http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Nina. 34683 From: nina van gorkom Date: Sun Jul 18, 2004 9:21pm Subject: Re: [dsg]thanks Hi Howard, Thank you for your very kind wishes, Nina. op 18-07-2004 16:53 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: And Nina and Lodewijk: My warmest congratulations to you > both! May you have wonderful lifetimes together of love, devotion, and > sharing of the Dhamma! 34684 From: kenhowardau Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 0:06am Subject: Re: [dsg]Mindfulness of Death Hi Nina, ----------------- N: > Lodewijk never likes it to hear about seeing and visible object, and not seeing persons, he gets very irritated. > -------------------- Is that because he has been a diplomat all his life? I agree it would be good to discuss anatta and paramattha dhammas in a diplomatic way that didn't show indifference to people's feelings. And trying to find such a way is irritatingly difficult. ----------------- N: > Andrew and Ken H had a discussion, where Andrew was wondering about Ken H's explanations, he was wondering whether Ken went too far. ----------------- At our last Cooran meeting I said that, ideally, a person's first introduction to Buddhism should be an explanation of nama and rupa. I don't remember Andrew's opinion on that occasion, but Christine was singularly unimpressed. As I remember, she thought people would never be attracted to the Dhamma in that way: that there needed to be a conventional introduction, only after which, there would be explanations of paramattha dhamma. I think Christine would prefer people were eased into seeing their own, ultimate non-existence. Come to think of it, my comparatively brash, plain-speaking approach has never had the desired effect on conventionally minded Buddhists (and non-Buddhists). So I can't really recommend it. :-) Hopefully, I will learn a new method from you and Lodewijk; for example, where you say: ---------------- > I mentioned that we should not forget the Brahma viharas at the same time, these are directed towards persons. > ---------------- That sounds like a fair compromise. Fortunately, I won't be expected to actually practise the Brahma viharas at the same time. Otherwise, you might never get a word out of me. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34685 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 0:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz Typo of Typo.... Oh Icaro!!! --- icarofranca wrote: > Typo Typo...yawn... > > > I could do better study English language, but anyway... > > --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > I could do better studying English anyway... > > ( No! No! No!...) ..... You certainly keep us all smiling here, just like the clowns in Shakespeare's plays -- not that you need any encouragement from me;-) I was also glad to see that in the revised typo posts that you *TRIMMED* and set a good example.... Also interested to see in a post of Nina's that you're planning to meet Jon, myself and others in Bkk next January. I'll look forward to hearing any more about this over the grapevine too;-). The discussions are sure to be very lively..... Metta, Sarah ===== 34686 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Hi Philip, I’d just like to add a couple of quick comments as you’ll be going away soon. --- Philip wrote: > > N:> Conceit plays a big role in whatever we do. My important person, > how > > dare he do this to me. > > Ph: This is it exactly. How dare he cut in line! So silly. "My > important person" - we are all VIPs in our wrong self-view. .... S: Beautifully put....’we are all VIPs in our wrong self-view’ and in our self-attachments too. .... >I thiink > a lot about the eight worldy concerns. Actually, I wonder why they > are not much more central in the Buddha's, why they don't appear more > often. It seems that reflecting on them helps a lot in loosening self- > view, just as reflecting on the three characterstics or the four > noble truths do. Of course, this reflection is just intellectual for > me at this point. .... S: of course there are suttas specifically about the 8 worldly conditions: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-006.html As wisdom grows, gradually there is less susceptibility to them, especially with more understanding of kamma and vipaka. I’m sure these reflections are very intellectual for most of us at this point - I always relate to your beginner comments too. There is a little more under ‘Worlds and Worldly conditions’ in U.P. Maybe these posts are relevant: 28663 and 31026. The reason that there is less and less susceptibility to worldly conditions as wisdom develops is because what are taken for good and bad results are seen in terms of very brief moments of kusala and akusala vipaka through the sense doors , followed by the various papanca you were referring to before. So in a sense, all the suttas about realities appearing through six doorways are relevant to this subject and this is why I believe that with more and more understanding -- even at our beginner stages -- there is less and less conflict between our dhamma interest and study and worldly situations or relationships. As Nina said, the dhamma is about the brahma viharas now at home or understanding realities at any time including when we’re too busy to open a text or find our favourite quiet spot. Phil, I also appreciated your comments on Abhidhamma study (34354) and the analogy of the surgeon without his anatomy textbook. Also enjoyed the papanca ramble about the cockroaches and brahma-viharas...I think you’re picking up the essence of the Abhidhamma very quickly and I agree with your comment that ‘we can develop a “nevermind” attitude towards the aspects we don’t respnd to, and that developing this attitude might be wholesome’. Thinking it all has to be clear and realized is usually more indicative of present lobha than anything else, I find. Finally, as it rained and rained one day in Switzerland, we enjoyed your reflections on the first verse from the Therigata and put on our waterproof gear as we set off hiking saying 'Go ahead and rain'!!. > "My hut is roofed, comfortable, free of drafts; my mind, well-centered, set free. I remain ardent. So, rain-deva. Go ahead & rain." > In the commentary, it says the verse was uttered by Subhuuti, the younger brother of Anathapindika. He became an arahant and was chief among the disciplesin the development of metta and thereby chief among them for bring worthy of receiving gifts. Prior to the uttering of this verse, he had arrived in Rajagaha and King Bimbisara had offered to make him a dwelling place but forgot. Subhuuti therefore dwelled in the open and ‘because of the Brother’s dignity, the god rained not, so the people were oppressed with the drought and raised a tumult at the door of the king’s house.’ A leaf-hut was then quickly made for Subhuuti who ‘declared the absence of any danger to himself from without, or from within’. I don’t have the Pali, but as you say, ‘ardent ‘ usually refers to the 4 right efforts accompanying mindfulness, right view and the other eightfold path factors. I’ll look forward to more of your reflections and anecdotes when conditions allow. Have a good trip to Canada and I hope you and Naomi have a good and peaceful summer. Metta, Sarah ====== 34687 From: sarah abbott Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Hi James, I’m glad you had a good trip to Alexandria and Sharm El Sheikh and appreciate your ongoing careful study of the suttas. --- buddhatrue wrote: > Friend Sarah, > James: Thank you for your efforts and I understand. I just hope > that you will understand my point that it shouldn't be difficult to > pinpoint this information outside of the commentaries. This is a > pretty significant issue. If the sotapanna does truly eradicate > jealousy, I think the Buddha would have said so very plainly. > Wouldn't it be very important for his monks to know that? I think > so. After all, if during the practice of mindfulness they ever > sensed the feelings of jealousy arising, they would then know that > they hadn't achieved the first stage of stream entry. .... S:As we’ve discussed, I think that many aspects of the teachings are spelled out more precisely in the Abhidhamma and commentaries. If one prefers to leave these aside, there has to be more reading between the sutta lines and this may be right or wrong. ..... > Sarah: In the suttas, a lot of the detail about stages of > enlightenment, enlightenment itself etc is kept to a minimum. > > James: How do you know this? Your implication is that it is > intentional. I believe that you have been conditioned to believe > this because the suttas don't give as much detail as the > commentaries by Buddhaghosa. .... S: I meant simply that there is a lot more detail in the other texts. Yes, the commentaries intentionally give more detail in these areas . ..... > James: Again, I think the eradication of jealousy is a pretty > significant issue that they would need to hear about. Why do you > think it isn't significant? Wouldn't it be a pretty clear benchmark > to determine one's progress? .... S: My comments here are only my reflections based on a very limited understanding - not any realizations. As I just said to Phil, I can appreciate intellectually that with more and more understanding and confidence in conditions and especially in kamma and vipaka, that there are fewer causes for jealousy to arise. By the time all doubts have been eradicated and there is complete confidence in the Triple Gem (at stage of sotapanna), there are no more conditions for jealousy to arise and one isn’t susceptible to the worldly conditions in the same way as now as all wrong view of self, people and ‘situations’ has been eradicated. Namas and rupas are fully understood. ..... > James: You must have a different definition for jealousy than I do. > For example, if you saw Jon flirting with a pretty girl, and you > felt upset about that, wouldn't that be jealousy? (Which I'm sure > wouldn't happen!! ;-)) I know that jealousy can be envy, but it can > also be of the type the Buddha described in that sutta. Hmmmm…now I > am not sure if we are both discussing the same thing or not. .... S: That sounds like an example of jealousy - fortunately Jon is not a flirt ;-) I’ve lost the sutta thread, but permit me to quote from the Dhammasangani, the first book of the Abhidhamma, and its commentary, the Atthasalini: Dhsg [1121]: “What is the Fetter of envy (issaasa.myojana.m)? Envy, envying, enviousness - jealousy, the expression and mood of jealousy at the gifts, the hospitality, the respect, affection, reverence and worship accruing to others - this is called the Fetter of envy.” Atth [373]: “In the expression of envy, envy at the gains, honour, reverence, affetion, salutation, worship accruing to others’ is that envy which has the characteristic of not enduring, or of grumbling at, the propensity of others, saying others’ gains, etc. ‘What is the use to these people of all this?’......The state of one envying is ‘enviousness’. ‘jealousy,’ etc are synonyms of envy. And the grumbling characteristic of this envy is to be understood of both householders and recluses...” ..... > Sarah: As you say, only an arahant has eradicated the last remnants > of attachment, but long before this, attachment to sense pleasures > have been eradicated and long before this, courser attachments, such > as those with wrong views conditioning jealousy have been eradicated. > > James: I am not quite sure what you are referring to. Attachment to > sense pleasures is eradicated in the non-returner; which I am not > sure I would describe this stage as `long before' enlightenment. .... S: Ok. An anagami (non-returner) has already completely eradicated attachment to sense pleasures which had been gradually worn away (like the adze handle simile) as wisdom developed through the various stages prior to this. By the time of becoming an arahant, I meant that any remnant of attachment to sense-pleasures is therefore long since gone. (of course this was all in the course of seconds for a very few for whom there were the right conditions and who’d developed suficient prior wisdom previously). ..... > Sarah: For worldlings like us it's true, but without wrong views, > the attachments are not so damaging and no conditions for jealousy > any more. Gradually the defilements can be understood and worn away. > > James: I don't follow your meaning here. .... S: To give a simple example: If we really understand that what we consider to be a great gain, such as a nice holiday or winning of the lottery, for example, are merely moments of kusala vipaka (seeing, hearing etc) followed by various tendencies to think in wise or unwise ways, then we won’t be so inclined to think: ‘What is the use to these people of all this?’ etc (as in the text example above) and more inclined just to have mudita (sympathetic joy). I discussed this aspect of mudita with my mother on holiday. When she returns home it’s difficult for her to tell her one remaining sister about any pleasant experiences because there is too much sisterly envy. We can see how envy and lack of mudita lead to not hearing friends’ and family’s good news. .... > James: I don't know where Nina explained about this. I will look > for the post later. .... S: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33835 ..... >Frankly, I don't know if I agree with this or > disagree. I can see both sides of the issue. Mental states are > very complicated and I think we are starting to approach them in a > rather cavalier manner. .... S: More and more complicated than we ever realized - I’m confident in time that you’ll really appreciate the precision of the Abhidhamma. .... >For example, what about schizophrenia and > other emotional disorders? What about the subconscious? How are > these issues addressed in the Abhidhamma? To my knowledge they > aren't and that makes the Abhidhamma an incomplete model of human > emotion. .... S: In brief, there are disorders with the arising of all akusala cittas and we can see and test that these states change all the time. Someone diagnosed with schizophrenia or other disorders can be very ‘sane’ at times and those of us considered ‘normal’ can be very insane often. All the various tendencies and proclivities are ‘accumulated’ in the citta and we never know what mental states will be conditioned to arise at anytime - blinding rage or jealousy or strong metta or sympathy. This is why there is fire on our heads. I’d be happy to discuss this area further. Metta, Sarah ====== 34688 From: christine_forsyth Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:24am Subject: Consolation Dear Group, What suttas do others value for consolation when one has a dear one who has died, or who is about to die? I am thinking of the verses if the Uraga-Jaataka, and though I see the truth they speak, there is little comfort there: "Man quits his mortal frame, when joy in life is past, Even as a snake is wont its worn out slough to cast. No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." "Uncalled he hither came, unbidden soon to go; E'en as he came he went. What cause is here for woe? No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." "Though I should fast and weep, how would it profit me? My kith and kin alas! would more unhappy be. No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." "As children cry in vain to grasp the moon above, So mortals idly mourn the loss of those they love. No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." "A broken pot of earth, ah! who can piece again? So too to mourn the dead is nought but labour vain. No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34689 From: Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 1:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Resolution of Determined Effort Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/18/04 3:14:10 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > Lodewijk and I wish you all the best. ------------------------------------------ Thank you! :-) ------------------------------------------ I do hope that you do not loose out of> > sight the Abhidhamma you took up. ------------------------------------------- I will not lose sight of this. I often read "abhidhammic material" in the suttas, especially in the Samyutta Nikaya, and from time to time I return to conditional relations and to material in the Abhidhamattha Sangaha (sp?). I must admit, however, to finding little delight in the Dhammasangani! ;-)) ------------------------------------------ I also hope that you will have the> > opportunity to visit Acharn Sujin and that you may join one of our India > pilgrimages. > ------------------------------------------ There's not great likelihood in this, but I appreciate your thinking of me in this respect! -------------------------------------------- Lodewijk says that even though he has great difficulty in> > understanding the fine points of the Dhamma he is always very much impressed > by the holy places. > ------------------------------------------- That's wonderful. I do think that the devotional aspect of religion is often given short shrift in Buddhism. It sets the heart in a useful and comforting direction - it builds saddha. ------------------------------------------- > Nina. ====================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34690 From: icarofranca Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:26am Subject: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz Typo of Typo.... Hi Sarah! > was also glad to see that in the revised typo posts that you >*TRIMMED* and > set a good example.... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Despite some pranks having got a strong akusala pattern, smiling is a good medicine and a Kusala factor too! You see, I was just attending the MSN Office course's weekly lecture when I 've decided to post such pearls of un-wisdom, so much of a distraction... Don't worry! At least at my own life, Neither Abhidhamma or Spelling is defunct!!! --------------------------------------------------------------------- > > Also interested to see in a post of Nina's that you're planning to meet > Jon, myself and others in Bkk next January. I'll look forward to hearing > any more about this over the grapevine too;-). The discussions are sure to > be very lively..... ---------------------------------------------------------------------- - It could be in English, please ? Thai language will cost a bit of time to master up but Tourist's and usual phrases!!! (For Lonely Planet Survival series' sake!!!) Mettaya, Ícaro 34691 From: Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 8:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/19/04 2:39:37 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > And to Howard, I > appreciate your sincere committment to the dhamma. > ==================== Thank you, Jon. I especially appreciate this, knowing your position on meditation and on "efforts" in general. Most kind!! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34692 From: ericlonline Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 0:31pm Subject: Re: Consolation This is a tough one Christine! I dont think one sutta will fit all occasions. I like the mustard seed story but this seems suitable for one who is in depression and not the anger or denial phases (aka Kubler Ross). Has the person passed yet? I have a very good hospice oriented article for care givers and the dying that I have found invaluable. I could email it to you off list if you like. PEACE E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > What suttas do others value for consolation when one has a dear one > who has died, or who is about to die? > > I am thinking of the verses if the Uraga-Jaataka, and though I see > the truth they speak, there is little comfort there: > > "Man quits his mortal frame, when joy in life is past, > Even as a snake is wont its worn out slough to cast. > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "Uncalled he hither came, unbidden soon to go; > E'en as he came he went. What cause is here for woe? > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "Though I should fast and weep, how would it profit me? > My kith and kin alas! would more unhappy be. > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "As children cry in vain to grasp the moon above, > So mortals idly mourn the loss of those they love. > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "A broken pot of earth, ah! who can piece again? > So too to mourn the dead is nought but labour vain. > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34693 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 3:31pm Subject: Sabba Sutta Hi everyone, I was reading the sabba sutta as found at http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-023.html. It takes up 6 lines. I will take it upon myself to quote the whole lot. "Monks, I will teach you the All. Listen & pay close attention. I will speak." "As you say, lord," the monks responded. The Blessed One said, "What is the All? Simply the eye & forms, ear & sounds, nose & aromas, tongue & flavors, body & tactile sensations, intellect & ideas. This, monks, is called the All. [ 1] Anyone who would say, 'Repudiating this All, I will describe another,' if questioned on what exactly might be the grounds for his statement, would be unable to explain, and furthermore, would be put to grief. Why? Because it lies beyond range." It is followed by the translators note, which is at least five times as long. It starts of with: " The Commentary's treatment of this discourse is very peculiar. To begin with, it delineates three other "All's" in addition to the one defined here, one of them supposedly larger in scope than the one defined here: the Allness of the Buddha's omniscience (literally, All-knowingness). This, despite the fact that the discourse says that the description of such an all lies beyond the range of explanation." What, then, differentiates speculation in the commentaries from non-commentarial speculation? Herman 34694 From: Herman Hofman Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 4:20pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat.(Warning-contains sexual references) Hi James, Sarah, everyone, .... >For example, what about schizophrenia and > other emotional disorders? What about the subconscious? How are > these issues addressed in the Abhidhamma? To my knowledge they > aren't and that makes the Abhidhamma an incomplete model of human > emotion. .... I have been following the discussion with interest. I'd like to throw an additional quandary into the ring. To the best of my scant knowledge there is no reference to orgasm in the Abhidhamma. Yet it is the most powerful, consuming feeling, and the search for sexual release is a cornerstone of human behaviour. I have read some explanations which reduce orgasm down to lobha. I found this unsatisfactory precisely because it is reductionist to the max. Now reductionism is the view that the nature of complex things can always be reduced to (explained by) simpler or more fundamental things. This view ignores the reality that at a certain level of quantitative change, there is qualitative change. Nor does it allow for the reality that a combination of elemental things can have properties not found in those elements. The waves of the ocean are not understood in terms of the properties of a single drop of water. And birds don't build their nests on mustard seeds. Herman 34695 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg]Mindfulness of Death Dear Ken, Thank you for writing. op 19-07-2004 09:06 schreef kenhowardau op kenhowardau@y...: > At our last Cooran meeting I said that, ideally, a person's first > introduction to Buddhism should be an explanation of nama and rupa. N: Interesting, A. Sujin once said the same. She thinks it is more simple that way. And she started that way with me long ago, and I took to it. She talked immediately at the first time in her house about nama and rupa. It is just that people are all different. They may like to talk first about their situations, and then the time may be ripe for nama and rupa, what do you think? As to the Brahma viharas, Lodewijk says, but we are living in this world, we cannot just say Nina and Lodewijk do not exist. The answer is: we are always thinking of persons and instead of thinking with akusala citta we can think with metta, compassion, mudita or equanimity. This will help our social life. There are no contradictions. And the thinking with metta is not us; satipatthana helps not to take kusala or akusala for self. But Andrew's post helped, we cannot expect yet to clearly comprehend anatta. We cling to kusala and to its result, take it for self. i heard some very good passages, just now from A. Sujin: Nina. 34696 From: nina van gorkom Date: Mon Jul 19, 2004 9:29pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Consolation Dear Chrisitine, I especially like these stanzas, they can be found also elsewhere. It reminds that nobody asks to be born, kamma caused it, and it is so short. What do we know about anybody's past lives. Life just comes and goes. Unbidden soon to go: it depends on kamma how long a life of a dear one can last. Why do we expect a life to last forever. I find it consoling. It is just a flash, my life, a dear one's life. But let us make the most of this short time, spend it well with the development of understanding and help others as well. Nina. op 19-07-2004 12:24 schreef christine_forsyth op cforsyth@v...: > "Uncalled he hither came, unbidden soon to go; > E'en as he came he went. What cause is here for woe? 34697 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Consolation Dear Christine, --- christine_forsyth wrote: > Dear Group, > > What suttas do others value for consolation when one has a dear one > who has died, or who is about to die? .... Several helpful posts and sutta references are included in the section under ‘Death’ in Useful Posts -- I'm sure there is a very helpful one from Ven Dhammapiyo. I started looking, but didn't get past the first one of Jon’s with reference to Uttaraa, Nandamaataa, who was described as chief among the lay women disciples in 'meditative power' (jhaayiinam) in AN, Bk of Ones, ch1V and who showed such great kindness and compassion to Sirima, the beautiful courtesan, when the latter poured hot ghee over her head. Jon wrote: >I just happend to come across reference to the sutta about Nanda's mother (Gradual Sayings IV, Book of the Sevens). She witnessed her son being taken by force and slain. But she had attained to a level of enlightenment where all attachment to sensuous objects had been eradicated and, amazingly, she had no conditions for aversion, no "disquietness of heart". The corollary of this, of course, is that we ordinary folk are bound to be disturbed by the death of someone whom we knew well. this simply reflects our attachment and other akusala tendencies. So it is an opportunity to know these tendencies more clearly.< I find the sutta he refers to and the story about her in several places** very inspiring. Here is a link to and an extract from the sutta he refers to: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/Anguttara4/7-sattakanipata/005-mahayannavaggo-e.htm 10. Nandamàtàsutta- The female lay disciple Nanda “Venerable sir, I had a single loved son Nanda, for some reason or other the king pulled him away, oppressed him and killed him. Venerable sir, when my child was pulled away, oppressed, and killed, I do not recall of the least change in my mind". “It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." “Venerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, my husband died and was born with a certain clan of demons. Now he appears to me as he was in his last birth. On account of that, I do not recall of the least change in my mind". [PTS: “I knew no disquietness (cittassa a~n~nathatta.n) of heart”] “It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." “Venerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, from the day I was brought by my husband as a child, I do not recall of an instance of going beyond his mental state, I have never searched outside bodily pleasures". [PTS: “I know of no trespass even in thought against my husband, how then in deed?”] “It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." “Venerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, from the day I confessed to be a female lay disciple I do not recall of trespessing the least of the precepts.” [According to Uttaraa’s Vimana*, she was already a sotapanna before she was married]. “It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." “Venerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, when I desire, secluding my mind from sensual desires and demeritorious things, with thoughts and discursive thoughts and with joy and pleasantness born of seclusion I abide in the first higher state of mind. Overcoming thoughts and discursive thoughts, the mind in one point, internally appeased with joy and pleasantness born of concentration I abide in the second higher state of mind. With equanimity to joy and disenchantment, I experience pleasantness and mindful awareness with the body and attain to the third higher state of mind, to this the noble ones say, mindfully abiding in pleasantness with equanimity. Dispelling pleasantness and unpleasantness and earlier having dispelled pleasure and displeasure, cleaning the mind so that it is without unpleasantness and pleasàntness I attain to the fourth higher state of mind" [an example of a female lay follower who was adept in the jhanas]. ”It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." “Venerable sir, that is not all, there is another wonderful and surprising thing. Venerable sir, I do not see a single of these bonds binding to the sensual world in me, according to the way declared by The Blessed One."[I believe she was a sakadagami rather than an anagami*] “It is wonderful and surprising Nandamata, your development and purity of mind." “Then venerable Sariputta advising, inciting and making the heart light of the female lay disciple Nanda with a talk got up and went away.” ***** I hope others will also share suttas they find inspiring at times of loss and perhaps you may also share any further reflections you find meaningful, Chris. With metta, Sarah * In the commentary on the Vimaana Stories (PTS, Masefield transl), under Uttaraa’s Vimaana, we read about how it was Uttaraa who arranged and paid for Sirimaa to ‘attend’ to her husband’s needs for half a month so that she could give alms to the Sangha and listen to the Dhamma from the Buddha. Later when she took Sirimaa to listen to the Buddha, Uttaraa became a sakadagami and Sirima and everyone else became sotapannas. Uttaraa, we are told, was reborn in the Tavatimsa realm. When Mogallana asked her about her previous deeds, she mentions: 1. No envy, meanness or spitefulness; without anger, obedient to her husband, diligent on Uposatha 2. Always restrained in the precepts, conversant in the Ariyan Truths 3. As a result of her morality and so on, happy and with shining complexion etc, taking refuge in the Triple Gem ..... **See entry under ‘Uttará Nandamátá.’ for a summary and further references of her inspiring story: http://www.palikanon.com/english/pali_names/dic_idx.html ===================================== 34698 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Consolation Hi Eric (and others New to the List) Welcome to DSG! --- ericlonline wrote: > This is a tough one Christine! I dont think one sutta will fit all > occasions. I like the mustard seed story but this seems suitable for > one who is in depression and not the anger or denial phases (aka > Kubler Ross). .... I think this is an astute comment. As you say, we're not always in the right frame of mind to appreciate some suttas and what is appropriate for one occasion or one friend may not be for another. .... > Has the person passed yet? I have a very good hospice oriented > article for care givers and the dying that I have found invaluable. > I could email it to you off list if you like. ... Maybe if it's on line you can just give a link here. I'd be very glad if you would kindly let us know a little more about your interest and background with regard to the Buddhism and also caring in general. I hope you find the list useful and look forward to your further comments. The posts under 'Death' which I just mentioned to Christine can be found here: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts If any Newbies to DSG are feeling overwhelmed by the Pali, you may like to print out this simple Pali glossary to have handy as well: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Glossary_of_pali_terms The Guidelines can also be found in the files if anyone needs to review them anytime;-). > PEACE > > E .... Metta, Sarah p.s we have another luriking good friend called Erik. Erik, hopefully having Eric on board will remind us to spell your name correctly -- hope you're doing well;-). ===================== 34699 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:01am Subject: Re: [dsg] hello Hi Gislene, A belated welcome to you from me as well. --- Gis Lene wrote: > Dear friends. > > My name is Gislene. I am new in this list. > I am brazilian, living in São Paulo and I am very very interested in > learning and practice buddhism. I think it is possible to use these > principles, philosophy and psychology in many areas. So I want to learn > about that and first of all learn and practice that principles in my own > > life. ... This was a great intro - we now have quite a group of Brazilian members and as you may have noted some are quite the most colourful around here;-). One of these is Michael who runs a Portuguese website. Let me know if you need a link. (Has anyone heard from Michael recently? He mentioned to me he'd be back around the end of April ready for more discussion on the Kathavatthu......but no sign as yet). <...> > Sorry for my english and for my questions, but I am just starting in all > the > meaning of that word has. ... Both are excellent - all questions on the teachings are most welcome and the more basic the better often. Pls just ignore any posts that seem too technical or detailed for now and keep asking your own qus. You or any other newbies may also like to look under posts: "New to the list and New to the Dhamma" at: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/Useful_Posts I also thought you made good comments in your post to Ken O about the way to live in the world. Let us know how you find the books and sites that were recommended to you as well. I forget if anyone recommended Nina's book, 'Buddhism in Daily Life' which can be found on line : http://www.abhidhamma.org/ or http://www.zolag.co.uk/ Metta, Sarah ======= 34700 From: sarah abbott Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 2:35am Subject: Re: [dsg] Arupa consciousness Dear KK, --- buddhaward wrote: > Dear Nina > > I am a korean buddhist in Japan. > > Sometimes I enjoy visiting this group though I do not know well about > Abhidhamma. ... S: I was very glad that you let us know and your questions to Nina were all excellent ones, I thought. Nina already gave clear answers, but as I have your post in front of me, let me give a few more of my own comments too. especially as your questions touch on other current threads: ... > What do you think Buddha's intentions were behind when Bhuddha > seemed to exhort his deciples to develop Jhanas as in suttas? .... S: I think the Buddha stessed the value in all kinds of kusala and encouraged the understanding and development of whatever is possible according to conditions and inclinations. Throughout, he stresses that all conditioned realities, including jhana states, are anicca, dukkha and anatta - not worth clinging to. ..... > Is such an intention itself to develop the indriyas, faculties, of > confidence, energy,mindfulness, concentration and pañña derived from > our "wish for another situation and another reality" ? .... S: This was a good question. Only pa~n~naa can know the different cittas and intentions. As you suggest, if there is a "wish for another situation and another reality", it’s quite useless, even if this wish is for an exalted state such as jhana or enlightenment. The indriyas mentioned above can only be developed with detachment to what appears now. .... > And Could you please explain how do you think we should develop them ? ... S: I liked Nina’s reply and particularly: “Also direct understanding of non-self, it has its own conditions for its arising. If we do no obstruct its arising by wishing it to develop fast, by forcing it, trying to direct it, it can grown in its own time. We need patience and endurance........Right understanding of the realities appearing in our life and learning to see them as only conditioned dhammas, this is the way that those faculties can become stronger.” I’m looking forward to any of your further feedback to her post or further questions, KK. Whereabouts in Japan do you live? Philip (about to go on a long holiday) lives in Tokyo and RobK in the south. Metta, Sarah p.s We also have another lurking friend here called KKT, so hope we don’t get your initials mixed up anytime;-) KKT, hope to hear from you soon - you’re missed! ====== 34701 From: Philip Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:55am Subject: Re: Consolation Hi Christine, and all. When I was reading "Buddhism in Daily Life" I came across this verse from the Therigata (the hymns of the elder nuns): "Sleep softly, little Sturdy, take your rest At ease, wrapt in the robe you yourself have made Stilled are the passions that would rage within Withered as potherbs in the oven dried." I took this as consoling - I think about death every day. Now, there is probably wrong understanding on my part here, because the "sleep softly" part does not reflect the truth of what's involved in the death and rebirth consciousness moments, but perhaps because of western cultural accumulations its comforting in an RIP kind of way. Also, I don't know what the "Sturdy" is - the name of the nun in question? She recited the verse to mark her awakening as a result of burning some food while cooking. In any case, I found it comforting. Perhaps a notion of being able to lie down at peace with our good deeds. Rob K mentionned in our talk that there was a tradition of reciting a person's good deeds to them on the deathbed. "The robe that you yourself have made" feels comforting though of course we know that the robe can be full of nasty surprises! Another one that seems comforting for couples to find consolation is AN IV 55, "Living in Tune." "Husband and wife, both of them having convictionn, being responsive, being restrained, living by the Dhamma, addressing each other with loving words: they benefit in manifold way. To them comes bliss. THeir enemies are dejected when both are in tune with virtue. Having follow the Dhamma here in this world, both in tune in precepts and practices, they delight in the world of the devas, enjoying the pleasures they desire." I have my doubts about this one - it feels too cozy. There is an implication of eternalism in it, in my opinion. Isn't it suggesting that they can continue to enjoy each other's company in lives to come? I've probably misunderstood it. Perhaps it is not saying that they will be together in the deva world, but their harmony when married contributes to individual deva rebirths. Metta, Phil --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > What suttas do others value for consolation when one has a dear one > who has died, or who is about to die? > 34702 From: Philip Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right Hi Sarah > S: of course there are suttas specifically about the 8 worldly conditions: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-006.html Ph: Thanks for that. Funny, I'd printed out most of the AN suttas available at Access to Insight but had missed that one. (snip) > The reason that there is less and less susceptibility to worldly > conditions as wisdom develops is because what are taken for good and bad > results are seen in terms of very brief moments of kusala and akusala > vipaka through the sense doors , followed by the various papanca you were > referring to before. So in a sense, all the suttas about realities > appearing through six doorways are relevant to this subject and this is > why I believe that with more and more understanding -- even at our > beginner stages -- there is less and less conflict between our dhamma > interest and study and worldly situations or relationships. Ph: Yes, I am finding so many suttas in the Samyutta Nikaya that deal with realities through the six doors, and khandas, and feeling, and so on. "Less and less conflict between our dhamma interest and study and worldly situations." Well, isn't the point that because of our growing understanding there is less and less susceptiblity to becoming upset by these situations and relationships? I think that applies to 6 of the 8 in particular. Aren't we able to becoming fairly independent from praise/blame, fame/disrepute and even loss/gain fairly quickly through intellectual understanding of the three characteristics and the aggregates? Next week I'm going to what amounts to a reunion of many relatives and friends, most of whom I haven't seen in close to 10 years. I think in the past there would be concern about measuring up to people, comparing myself in terms of worldly success. Now I have this understanding of Dhamma and it is so much more valuable than any worldly success, I deeply feel. I feel confident that I am moving beyond such concerns. But the remaining pair of concerns is so much deeper and immeditate and difficult to eradicate. The concerns about pain/pleasure get at lobha and dosa at the point of immediate response. THere is no way to get beyond these concerns through intellectual understanding. Only satipatthana practiced through countless lives can lead to eradicating them. So it almost seems to me that it should be "Six Worldly Concerns" and that pain/pleasure are much too immediate to be included. I will contact the folks at Access to Insight and suggest a revision. ;) > Phil, I also appreciated your comments on Abhidhamma study (34354) and the > analogy of the surgeon without his anatomy textbook. Ph: Thanks. I've been getting a little deeper into suttas since then, and I still think my comment was valid. I am able to appreciate the Samyutta Nikaya much more, in my opinion, having first gained a very basic understanding of Abhidhamma first. >Also enjoyed the > papanca ramble about the cockroaches and brahma-viharas Ph: Thanks again. I was thinking about killing or not killing cockroaches last night. Was reading about the abstinences in "Manual of Abhidhamma." It says there are 3 kinds of abstinences. THe first is "natural", based on considerations of concern for one's reputation and so on. The second is based on precepts we have taken. The third arises with supramundane path consciousness moments. Now, it seems to me that there is another kind. I started to abstain from killing cockroaches, not because of the precepts, because I have never taken them to tell the truth, and don't think much about them, believing rightly or wrongly that they represent a description of the way an enlightened person behaves rather than rules to follow. But I came to abstain from killing cockroaches. Subconscious effect of having read about the precepts so often? If not, it seems like a kind of abstaining that is based on growing understanding, but of course not at the level of path consciousness. Oh my gosh. That was another mini-ramble. My last before the vacation? We shall see. >...I think you're > picking up the essence of the Abhidhamma very quickly Ph: Today I received a copy of Rob M's first draft, and I have just started the Manual of Abhidhamma, and I am rereading Abhidhamma in Daily Life. I will be one of the Super Knowledgeable Abhidhamma Ones. I will! I will! To be honest, conceit sometimes has me thinking that in a few years I will be one of the stars - you know who you are- of DSG and in a few decades I might even be A SUPERSTAR like Nina. It is funny, but honestly I do catch myself thinking about being A Knowledgeable One. And then I realize, with relief, that the deeper I get into Dhamma, and the better my understanding becomes, the less conceit there will be, gradually. That is the wonderful thing about the Dhamma. We can plunge into it motivated by self-image, but exposure to Dhamma begins to eradicate this wrong view and we are surely not motivated by self-image for long. I guess. >and I agree with > your comment that `we can develop a "nevermind?Eattitude towards the > aspects we don't respnd to, and that developing this attitude might be > wholesome?E Thinking it all has to be clear and realized is usually more > indicative of present lobha than anything else, I find. Ph: Yes, I think this is true. Thanks for reminding me that I said that. (snip) > > I'll look forward to more of your reflections and anecdotes when > conditions allow. > > Have a good trip to Canada and I hope you and Naomi have a good and > peaceful summer. Ph: Thanks. Not out of here quite yet, though. I shouldn't have signed off so soon. Should have known better. Writing that novel really represents worldly concerns, though the heart of it is quite pure. Dhamma won out and brought me back here to my Dhamma friends. Metta, Phil 34703 From: Bill Saint-Onge Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Consolation Perhaps a dhamma talk by Ajahn Chah called "Our Real Home", widely available online as a gift of dhamma... ericlonline wrote:This is a tough one Christine! I dont think one sutta will fit all occasions. I like the mustard seed story but this seems suitable for one who is in depression and not the anger or denial phases (aka Kubler Ross). Has the person passed yet? I have a very good hospice oriented article for care givers and the dying that I have found invaluable. I could email it to you off list if you like. PEACE E --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "christine_forsyth" wrote: > Dear Group, > > What suttas do others value for consolation when one has a dear one > who has died, or who is about to die? > > I am thinking of the verses if the Uraga-Jaataka, and though I see > the truth they speak, there is little comfort there: > > "Man quits his mortal frame, when joy in life is past, > Even as a snake is wont its worn out slough to cast. > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "Uncalled he hither came, unbidden soon to go; > E'en as he came he went. What cause is here for woe? > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "Though I should fast and weep, how would it profit me? > My kith and kin alas! would more unhappy be. > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "As children cry in vain to grasp the moon above, > So mortals idly mourn the loss of those they love. > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > "A broken pot of earth, ah! who can piece again? > So too to mourn the dead is nought but labour vain. > No friend's lament can touch the ashes of the dead: > Why should I grieve? He fares the way he had to tread." > > metta and peace, > Christine > ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34704 From: Antony Woods Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 3:59am Subject: sensual pleasures increase craving Buddha said: "...beings not free from passion for sensual pleasures -- devoured by sensual craving, burning with sensual fever -- indulge in sensual pleasures. The more they indulge in sensual pleasures, the more their sensual craving increases and the more they burn with sensual fever..." http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn075.html 34705 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:19am Subject: Intro Tiika Vis. XIV, 88 Vi. 88. The 'supramundane' is fourfold by association with the four paths. So firstly, profitable consciousness itself is of twenty-one kinds. Intro Tiika Vis. XIV, 88 The Visuddhimagga, in its dealing with the khandha of consciousness, follows the triple division of the Dhammasanga.ni of: kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma and avyaakaata (indeterminate) dhamma. It deals first with kusala citta of the four planes of citta: citta of the sense-sphere, of the fine-material sphere (ruupa-jhaana) of the immaterial sphere (aruupa-jhaana) and supramundane or lokuttara citta. In this section it deals with the lokuttara kusala cittas of the four stages of enlightenment: the stage of the streamwinner, of the once-returner, of the non-returner and of the arahat. At each of these stages defilements are successively eradicated. The right conditions have to be cultivated so that enlightenment can be attained. The Tiika refers to the six purifications, visuddhis, that have to be reached before the seventh purification, purification by knowledge and vision that is associated with the magga-citta, path-consciousness. The first six are: purification of siila, of citta (concentration), of view (di.t.thi visuddhi, the first stage of tender insight), purification by overcoming doubt (the second stage of tender insight), purification by knowledge and vision of what is and what is not the Path (the third stage of tender insight), purification by knowledge and vision of the way (including all the stages of principal insight). All these purifications have been described in the Visuddhimagga further on. In the process during which enlightenment is attained the dhamma that appears is seen as impermanent, dukkha or anattå, and after that nibbana is experienced. The Tiika refers to three kinds of liberations, vimokkha, namely: the void liberation, the signless liberation and the desireless liberation. Nibbaana is called voidness, suññatta, because it is void of all conditioned dhammas. It is called signlessness, animitta, because it is void of ³signs², characteristics of conditioned realities. It is called desirelessness, appa.nihita, because it is without any basis of desire, namely, conditioned realities. As Acharn Sujin wrote in ³Survey of Paramattha Dhammas²: It is true that when one of the three characteristics is realized, also the other two are understood. But depending on a person¹s accumulated inclinations one of the three characteristics will be contemplated more often. We read in the Vis. XXI, 70: (Ps. II, 58. Path of Discrimination, Treatise on Liberation.) Enlightenment cannot be attained without the development of insight, stage by stage, beginning with the first stage of tender insight, the realization of the difference between the characteristic of naama, the reality which experiences something, and of ruupa which does not experience anything. In order to realize the difference between the characteristics of nama and of rupa we have to be mindful of any reality that appears at this moment. There is no other way. The Visuddhimagga states that profitable consciousness itself is of twenty-one kinds. Thus, summarizing, these are: eight types of kusala cittas of the sense-sphere, five types of ruupaavacara kusala cittas, four types of aruupaavacara kusala cittas, four types of lokuittara magga-cittas. All these kusala cittas arise only when there are the appropriate conditions and we cannot cause their arising whenever we want to. However, when we understand what the right conditions for kusala citta are, kusala can be developed. The Dhammasanga.ni enumerates all dhammas that constitute the first type of kusala citta of the sense-sphere and it ends this section by emphasizing that these are only dhammas devoid of self, stating : These few words, at the end of this section, express that the purpose of the enumeration of all these kusala dhammas is explaining their nature of suññatta or anattaa. The Expositor (I, p. 206) comments: < And here there are only states [dhammas]; no permanent being, no soul is known. These (fifty-six states) are mere states without essence, without a guiding principle. and it is to show the emptiness of this that they are stated here also...There is nothing else whatever, neither a being, nor an individuality, nor a man, nor a person...> **** Nina. 34706 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:19am Subject: Tiika Vis. XIV, 88 Vis. 88. The 'supramundane' is fourfold (18)-(21) by association with the four paths. So firstly, profitable consciousness itself is of twenty-one kinds. Tiika 88: After the realization of the six Purifications in due order one must attain supramundane consciousness. What must be said in this connection will come afterwards. As to the expression, by association with the four Paths, this means the Path-consciousness of the streamwinner up to the Path-consciousness of the arahat, and thus it is by association with these four noble Paths. And also, with regard to this fourfold supramundane consciousness, when one has developed the way and experiences nibbana as object, the three kinds of liberations arise, namely: the void liberation, the signless liberation, the desireless liberation. And this should be understood as the turning away from the conditions for rebirth as a living being. Profitable consciousness is of twentyone kinds and this means that it is according to this method neither too short nor too detailed. ***** Pali: Vis. 88. lokuttara.m catumaggasampayogato catubbidhanti eva.m taava kusalavi~n~naa.nameva ekaviisatividha.m hoti. Tiika 88: Chavisuddhiparamparaaya samadhigantabba.m lokuttara.m. After the realization of the six Purifications in due order one must attain supramundane consciousness. Tattha vattabba.m parato aagamissati. What must be said in this connection will come afterwards. Catumaggasampayogatoti sotaapattimaggo yaava arahattamaggoti imehi catuuhi ariyamaggehi sampayogato. As to the expression, by association with the four Paths, this means the Path-consciousness of the streamwinner up to the Path-consciousness of the arahat, and thus it is by association with these four noble Paths. Catubbidhampi ceta.m bhaavanaamayameva hutvaa nibbaana.m aalambitvaa su~n~nato vimokkho, animitto vimokkho, appa.nihito vimokkhoti naamena uppajjati, And also, with regard to this fourfold supramundane consciousness, when one has developed the way and experiences nibbana as object, the three kinds of liberations arise, namely: the void liberation, the signless liberation, the desireless liberation. sattabhavaadibhavuupapattinivattakanti da.t.thabba.m. and this should be understood as the turning away from the conditions for rebirth as a living being. Ekaviisatividha.m hoti naatisa"nkhepavitthaaranayenaati adhippaayo. Profitable consciousness is of twentyone kinds and this means that it is according to this method neither too short nor too detailed. ***** Nina. 34707 From: nina van gorkom Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 10:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Resolution, and Dhammasangani Hi Howard, Thanks for writing. Allow me a little meditation on the Dhammasangani. You need not bother to answer me. op 19-07-2004 14:25 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > I will not lose sight of this. I often read "abhidhammic material" in > the suttas, especially in the Samyutta Nikaya, and from time to time I return > to conditional relations and to material in the Abhidhamattha Sangaha (sp?). I > must admit, however, to finding little delight in the Dhammasangani! ;-)) N: I am glad. Now, as I said before, the English translation looses so much of its force. Not everybody learns Pali, I understand. I also understand that the Dhammasangani in English is not so appealing. Today for my Intro to Visuddhimagga I compared English and Pali. What a difference. I was so impressed by the economy of words, the sobriety, it is incredible. If you read it you will see: these are only dhammas devoid of self in this way: This is all there is. That whole section is just to show that they are suññatta. < The section on the Void. The first citta.> Can it be said in a more concise way? And then the Co. to the Dhsgn explains it: no self or person in any way. As I said before, the very beginning is equally sober: kusala dhamma, akusala dhamma, avyaakaata dhamma. On the other hand, on p. 254, 255, the Dhsgn gives almost a hundred synonyms for lobha. In the footnotes there is a summary of the Co. It helps, as I said before, to read along with it the Co: the Expositor. I am glad you see Abhidhamma in S.N., yes, especially in S.N. IV. Nina. 34708 From: Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:39am Subject: Re: [dsg] A Resolution, and Dhammasangani Hi, Nina - In a message dated 7/20/04 1:22:50 PM Eastern Daylight Time, nilo@e... writes: > Hi Howard, > Thanks for writing. > Allow me a little meditation on the Dhammasangani. You need not bother to > answer me. > op 19-07-2004 14:25 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > >I will not lose sight of this. I often read "abhidhammic material" in > >the suttas, especially in the Samyutta Nikaya, and from time to time I > return > >to conditional relations and to material in the Abhidhamattha Sangaha > (sp?). I > >must admit, however, to finding little delight in the Dhammasangani! ;-)) > N: I am glad. Now, as I said before, the English translation looses so much > of its force. Not everybody learns Pali, I understand. I also understand > that the Dhammasangani in English is not so appealing. Today for my Intro to > Visuddhimagga I compared English and Pali. What a difference. I was so > impressed by the economy of words, the sobriety, it is incredible. If you > read it you will see: these are only dhammas devoid of self in this way: > (suññattavaaro. Pa.thamacitta.m).> > This is all there is. That whole section is just to show that they are > suññatta. Can it be said in a > more concise way? > And then the Co. to the Dhsgn explains it: no self or person in any way. As > I said before, the very beginning is equally sober: kusala dhamma, akusala > dhamma, avyaakaata dhamma. > On the other hand, on p. 254, 255, the Dhsgn gives almost a hundred synonyms > for lobha. In the footnotes there is a summary of the Co. > It helps, as I said before, to read along with it the Co: the Expositor. I > am glad you see Abhidhamma in S.N., yes, especially in S.N. IV. > Nina. > ====================== Just two comments: 1) I agree that the English translation of the Dhsgn is terrible; the English is so awkward, stilted, and dry. The original would *have* to be better! 2) You are a wonderful spokesperson for the Abhidhamma! With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34709 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 4:44pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Sabba Sutta Hi, Herman Often these expositions in the commentaries are summaries of material found elsewhere in the suttas. That may well be the case here, as we know from suttas such as the oft-quoted Simsapa Sutta that the knowledge of the Buddha was far greater than the things actually taught by him. On the general question you raise, commentarial elaboration of material in the suttas is generally speaking material from around the time of the Buddha or shortly afterwards that has been approved at one of the Great Councils, as I understand it. Jon --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi everyone, > > I was reading the sabba sutta as found at > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/samyutta/sn35-023.html. It > takes up 6 lines. ... > " The Commentary's treatment of this discourse is very peculiar. To > begin with, it delineates three other "All's" in addition to the one > defined here, one of them supposedly larger in scope than the one > defined here: the Allness of the Buddha's omniscience (literally, > All-knowingness). This, despite the fact that the discourse says that > the description of such an all lies beyond the range of explanation." > > What, then, differentiates speculation in the commentaries from > non-commentarial speculation? > > Herman 34710 From: huajun_tang Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 1:45pm Subject: Re: Is sensual pleasure and stimulation necessary for a healthy life? Dear Nori, My understaning of the Dhamma is that onyl those who have established in higher pleasure can give up sensual pleasure. It has been mentioned many times in the sutta that the pleasure born of seclusion is superior than any sensual pleasure. As in the case of an ordinary human baby, sensual pleasure of course is important to him/her. Buddha encourages all the people live happily,please see (S iv 42,Rasiya). With metta, Huajun --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "nori" wrote: > Hi Dhamma friends, > > I was curious to know what everyones opinions were on this? > > It is a well known fact that infants that are held, touched, cuddled, > caressed and gently massaged (A.K.A. - Loved) grow up to be healthier > children with improved mental function and healthier immune systems. > > "...It is essential -- essential to their health and well-being. > According to a research study in the 1940's, babies who were not > touched and cuddled often died from lack of human contact. According > to one renown child psychologist, touch stimulates the newborn's > physical as well as emotional health and may indeed be necessary to > stimulate the release of certain neurohormones and chemicals that > promote health, sharpen mental functions, and build a healthier > immune system." - excerpt from internet article > > > The Dhamma - as taught by Gotama tells us that it is possible to be > free from sensual desire; That one could dwell content in > renunciation from sensual pleasures and stimulation. > > But then considering the necessity of sensual stimulation in infants > and children I ask: > > ... is it ever truly possible to be free from the desire of sensual > pleasure and stimulation? > > > with metta, > > nori 34711 From: Robert Epstein Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 6:48pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati Sutta Dear dsg'ers, I am posting this dialogue that started between Victor and Jon, and has my reply to Jon added. We wanted to continue the conversation on-list. I also wanted to apologize to Sukin for not replying to his last post on the topic of meditation, which is related to this thread. I have been contemplating his post for about a month, and still haven't gotten it together to reply properly. Sukin, I'm still working on it! Best, Robert Ep. ================ --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Sorry, Jon, I found this message from > what > seems to be a couple of months ago. Sorry that it slipped through the > cracks. > Although you know that I personally believe that mindfulness of > breathing is a > useful focus for all who want to develop mindfulness, I certainly find > your > argument interesting and am glad to have such a clear statement of it. > I don't > doubt that those whom Buddha was addressing in this sutta were advanced > practitioners and that this may have had some influence on the subject > matter, but > i don't think that it rules out the usefulness of what he is describing. > > > If you feel that mindfulness of breathing is very difficult and reserved > for those > who have already cultivated samatha with breathing as object, it seems > to me that > you would also acknowledge the extreme difficulty of actually perceiving > the > arisal of rupas and namas in the moment, as is the aim of Abhidhamma. > Could > anything be more difficult than that? > > Best, > Rob Ep. > > =============================== > > --- Jonothan Abbott wrote: > > Victor, and Rob Ep > > > > Victor, I'd like to come back to a post of yours that I answered in > > part before. I've included Rob Ep above because the same issue has > > been raised by him in recent posts. > > > > Victor: > > Why does one want to develop & pursue anapanasati? Because > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > > their culmination." > > > > Jon: > > Context is everything. In the sutta, these words come at the end of > > the description of the occasion on which the discourse was given. It > > is helpful to look at the occasion to get a proper understanding of > > the teaching being given. I have set out below the relevant part of > > the 'occasion' description, which is often overlooked (people like to > > jump straight in at the passage you have quoted). The text is taken > > from ATI; I have added paragraph numbers so that I can cross refer > > more easily. > > > > The first point to note is that the assembly of monks to which the > > sutta is given is an extremely illustrious one. This is indicated by > > the roll-call of 'well-known elder disciples' [1], the glowing > > description of the assembly by the Buddha [7] and the description of > > different levels of attainment of those present, who included: > > [8] Arahants, > > [9] non-returners > > [10] once-returners > > [11] stream-enterers > > [12] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of the four frames > > of reference... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble > > eightfold path' > > [13] monks who 'remain devoted to the development of good will... > > compassion... appreciation... equanimity...[the perception of the] > > foulness [of the body]... the perception of inconstancy'. > > [14] monks who 'remain devoted to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing'. > > > > > > Note the reference at [12] to monks who 'remain devoted to' the > > development of the four frames of reference ... the seven factors for > > Awakening... the noble eightfold path'. This I take to mean monks > > who are well advanced in the development of insight (vipassana > > bhavana). > > > > Now regarding the monks who 'remain devoted to mindfulness of > > in-&-out breathing' [14], these are the monks to whom the passage we > > are now considering is addressed in particular. I see 2 things of > > significance. > > > > The first is that these monks are already skilled in the development > > of samatha with breath as object; the second is that they are not yet > > to be counted among those who are 'devoted to the development of the > > four frames of reference ... the seven factors for Awakening... the > > noble eightfold path' at [12], i.e., as being firmly established in > > the development of insight. > > > > Now let's look again at your passage, in the light of this > > background. It reads [15]: > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, ... > > [J: as being developed by those just described at [14]] > > when developed & pursued, ... > > [J: i.e., developed and pursued in the particular way to be described > > later in this sutta] > > brings the four frames of reference ... the seven factors for > > Awakening ...clear knowing & release to their culmination." > > [J: i.e., as for the persons described at [12], who are well > > established in insight] > > > > So I see this passage as extolling the development of insight, in > > tandem with the further development of samatha with breath as object, > > for those who have already developed samatha with breath as object. > > > > I do not see in this particular passage the message that people > > wishing to development insight are advised to do so by also > > developing samatha with breath as object. > > > > A final point of interest is that the assembly includes monks who are > > skilled in samatha with other objects such as the 4 brahma-viharas, > > foulness of the body, and the perception of impermanence [13]. > > However, no special instruction is given here (or elsewhere, that I'm > > aware of) for the concurrent development of insight for these > > disciples. I suspect this reflects the fact that enlightenment based > > on jhana with breath as object is of particular difficulty, and is a > > course that is suitable for Buddhas, Pacceka-Buddhas and the great > > disciples, i.e., for the very greatest of beings. > > > > Jon > > > > Anapanasati Sutta (M. 118) > > ******************************* > > [1] I have heard that on one occasion the Blessed One was staying > > at Savatthi in the Eastern Monastery, the palace of Migara's mother, > > together with many well-known elder disciples -- with Ven. Sariputta, > > Ven. Maha Moggallana, Ven. Maha Kassapa, Ven. Maha Kaccana, Ven. Maha > > Kotthita, Ven. Maha Kappina, Ven. Maha Cunda, Ven. Revata, Ven. > > Ananda, and other well-known elder disciples. ... > > > > [6] Now on that occasion -- the Uposatha day of the fifteenth, the > > full-moon night of the White water-lily month, the fourth month of > > the rains -- the Blessed One was seated in the open air surrounded by > > the community of monks. Surveying the silent community of monks, he > > addressed them: > > > > [7] "Monks, this assembly is free from idle chatter, devoid of idle > > chatter, and is established on pure heartwood: such is this community > > of monks, such is this assembly. The sort of assembly that is worthy > > of gifts, worthy of hospitality, worthy of offerings, worthy of > > respect, an incomparable field of merit for the world: such is this > > community of monks, such is this assembly. The sort of assembly to > > which a small gift, when given, becomes great, and a great gift > > greater: such is this community of monks, such is this assembly. The > > sort of assembly that it is rare to see in the world: such is this > > community of monks, such is this assembly -- the sort of assembly > > that it would be worth traveling for leagues, taking along > > provisions, in order to see. > > > > [8] "In this community of monks there are monks who are Arahants, > > whose mental effluents are ended, who have reached fulfillment, done > > the task, laid down the burden, attained the true goal, totally > > destroyed the fetter of becoming, and who are released through right > > gnosis: such are the monks in this community of monks. > > > > [9] "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the total > > ending of the first set of five fetters, are due to be reborn [in the > > Pure Abodes], there to be totally unbound, never again to return from > > that world: such are the monks in this community of monks. > > > > [10] "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the > > total ending of [the first] three fetters, and with the attenuation > > of passion, aversion, & delusion, are once-returners, who -- on > > returning only one more time to this world -- will make an ending to > > stress: such are the monks in this community of monks. > > > > [11] "In this community of monks there are monks who, with the > > total ending of [the first] three fetters, are stream-winners, > > steadfast, never again destined for states of woe, headed for > > self-awakening: such are the monks in this community of monks. > > > > [12] "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted > > to the development of the four frames of reference... the four right > > exertions... the four bases of power... the five faculties... the > > five strengths... the seven factors for Awakening... the noble > > eightfold path: such are the monks in this community of monks. > > > > [13] "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted > > to the development of good will... compassion... appreciation... > > equanimity...[the perception of the] foulness [of the body]... the > > perception of inconstancy: such are the monks in this community of > > monks. > > > > [14] "In this community of monks there are monks who remain devoted > > to mindfulness of in-&-out breathing. > > > > [15] "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, > > is of great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out > > breathing, when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of > > references to their culmination. The four frames of reference, when > > developed & pursued, bring the seven factors for Awakening to their > > culmination. The seven factors for Awakening, when developed & > > pursued, bring clear knowing & release to their culmination. > > > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/majjhima/mn118.html > > > > --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > > > Hi Jon, > > > > > > Commentaries, ancient or modern, on anapanasati may be helpful to > > > one who develops anapanasati(being mindful with breath). > > > > > > Why does one want to develop & pursue anapanasati? Because > > > "Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, when developed & pursued, is of > > > great fruit, of great benefit. Mindfulness of in-&-out breathing, > > > when developed & pursued, brings the four frames of reference to > > their culmination." > > > > > > Developing & pursuing anapanasati is a "doing" and a skillful one. > > > > > > And by "doing" I mean kamma/action. It is the "doing" that leads > > to > > > the cessation of "doing." > > > > > > There is nothing wrong spending certain amount of time a day > > > dedicating to developing and pursuing anapanasati. > > > > > > Why does one want to sit down folding his legs crosswise, holding > > > his body erect? > > > > > > Speaking from my own understanding, because it is a stable posture > > > that keeps the body still, conducive for calming the bodily and > > > mental fabrications and arousing energy. > > > > > > While in the suttas (references would be helpful) there may be many > > > instances of people, including lay-followers, becoming enlightened > > > while listening to the Buddha's discourses, it does not mean that > > > these people did not spending time on developing & pursuing > > > anapasati. > > > > > > As I see it, anapanasati is being mindful of and with in-&-out > > > breathing. > > > > > > Metta, > > > Victor 34712 From: Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 7:01pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Intro Tiika Vis. XIV, 88 N: "As Acharn Sujin wrote in ³Survey of Paramattha Dhammas²: " Hi Nina, Are these three emancipations (signless, desireless, and voidness) associated with the three dhammas of the mental body, feeling, perception, and mental formations? Perception is particularly associated with signs and identity (this is different from belief in a self). With grasping, a mental formation, belief in self arises. And finally the basis of desire is feeling. Also it is interesting to note that in English "grasping" can mean "understanding". This fits well with ditthi (view) which is also mental formation. I've been reading Nagarguna's MMK and that ends with an analysis of the emptiness of views. Larry 34713 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 8:13pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Rob Nice to hear from you again. Rob: I found this message from what seems to be a couple of months ago. Sorry that it slipped through the cracks. Jon: No problem, Rob. I'm just happy to find someone who takes even longer to reply than I do ;-)) Rob: Although you know that I personally believe that mindfulness of breathing is a useful focus for all who want to develop mindfulness, I certainly find your argument interesting and am glad to have such a clear statement of it. I don't doubt that those whom Buddha was addressing in this sutta were advanced practitioners and that this may have had some influence on the subject matter, but i don't think that it rules out the usefulness of what he is describing. Jon: I agree with you on this last point. There is no question whatsoever as to the usefulness of mindfulness of breathing in general, or of the development of insight combined with mindfulness of breathing as described in the Anapanasati Sutta. The only question is as to the 'applicability' to you and me of what is described in that sutta – do we at this time fall within the class of persons capable of putting into practice what is there described? On this question, the details of the occasion and the audience to whom the sutta was spoken will be relevant. To put that another way, is this particular passage to be read as a general endorsement of anapanasati for all who want to develop mindfulness (including relative beginners), or is it to be read as setting out a path for those who are at the stage of development where they have the potential for attainment of enlightenment (a) in this lifetime and (b) with jhana as basis? Rob: If you feel that mindfulness of breathing is very difficult and reserved for those who have already cultivated samatha with breathing as object, it seems to me that you would also acknowledge the extreme difficulty of actually perceiving the arisal of rupas and namas in the moment, as is the aim of Abhidhamma. Could anything be more difficult than that? Jon: Again, I agree with this observation. In my view, the difficulty of both mindfulness of breathing and insight development are severely underestimated. But of the two, the development of insight is infinitely more difficult, both in terms of the opportunity of hearing the right explanation and in terms of understanding what is involved. The teaching on samatha bhavana is extant in the world long after the dhamma has disappeared. Indeed, that is one reason why in my view our energies should be concentrated in this lifetime on studying what the Buddha had to say about vipassana. (A minor quibble. The actual perception of arisen namas and rupas is not the aim of just the Abhidhamma, but is the aim of the suttas and the Vinaya also, I believe.) Rob, I appreciate your comments and contribution to this discussion. I hope I have managed to get across that our difference is not so much on the question of whether mindfulness of breathing is a high level of kusala or not, nor on whether it was widely practised in the Buddha's time, nor whether it may in certain circumstances be the basis for the development of insight and indeed enlightenment (there is no dispute from me on any of these points), but on the question of how relevant the Anapanasati Sutta is to you and me as regards the development of insight at the present moment, in our lives as we presently live them. Jon --- Robert Epstein wrote: > Dear dsg'ers, > I am posting this dialogue that started between Victor and Jon, and > has my reply to Jon added. We wanted to continue the conversation > on-list. ... > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > Sorry, Jon, > I found this message from > > what > > seems to be a couple of months ago. Sorry that it slipped through the > > cracks. ... > > > Best, > > Rob Ep. 34714 From: ericlonline Date: Tue Jul 20, 2004 9:11pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Consolation --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Eric (and others New to the List) > > Welcome to DSG! Thanks Sarah! > Maybe if it's on line you can just give a link here. unfortunately it is not. I will see if I can upload it. It is in a .pdf format I'd be very glad if > you would kindly let us know a little more about your interest and > background with regard to the Buddhism and also caring in general. I have been involved with Theravada Buddhism for about 5 years. I am pretty active at a Wat close to my home. I have been fortunate to have had some good teachers/monks over the years. Many monks with many rains, etc. A big influence was Buddhadasa. He was a teacher to a few of the monks. Also a few Ven. American monks that were instrumental in my understandings. I am a committed meditator and my nose is always in the Nikayas. I know some Pali but I don't feel it is 100% essential. Ven. Bodhi stayed at the Wat a few summers ago for a few weeks and after meeting him, I am confident in his translations. Plus I read so much other stuff from other traditions, the gaps seem to get filled in enough for my purposes i.e. practice. RE: caring. I took a 13week hospice training course to become a volunteer for a hospice care facility about 3 years. The training was great, covering a wide range of topics: drugs, medicade, grief, etc. I have been a volunteer ever since. PEACE E 34715 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:07am Subject: Dependent Origination MarkI Hi everyone, The Mahapadana Sutta is acknowledged by scholars as being the first account of Paticcasamuppada. It may be of interest to some that this original version has only 10 links, quoted as follows from http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida%5Fb%5Fwells%5Fmemorial%5Fsutra%5F library/mahapadana_sutta.htm: "And then, monks, the Bodhisattva thought, "With what being present, does aging and death occur? What conditions aging and death?" And then, monks, as a result of wisdom born of profound consideration the realization dawned on him, "Birth being present, aging and death occurs, birth conditions aging and death." "Then he thought, "What conditions birth?" And the realization dawned on him, "Becoming conditions birth". "What conditions becoming?". "Clinging conditions becoming.". "Craving Conditions clinging". "Feeling conditions craving.". "Contact conditions feeling". "The Six sense Bases condition contact". "Mind and body condition the six sense bases". "Consciousness conditions mind and body". And then the Bodhisattva Vipassi thought, "With what being present does consciousness occur? What conditions consciousness?" And then, as a result of the wisdom born profound consideration, the realization dawned on him, "Mind and body conditions consciousness'." NB the end is that mind and body condition consciousness, preceded by consciousness conditioning mind and body There is no mention of avijja and sankhara. The following is quoted from http://ccbs.ntu.edu.tw/FULLTEXT/JR-ENG/wadd.htm from an article entitled: THE SO-CALLED "MAHAPADANA" SUTTANTA AND THE DATE OF THE PALI CANON BY L. A. WADDELL The Journal of the Royal Asiatic Society of Great Britain and Ireland 1914.07.15 p. 661-680 To students of Buddhism and Comparative Religion desirous of knowing Buddha's own views and teaching from his own words, it is extremely disconcerting to find that the Pali Canon can no longer be regarded as the actual "Word" and Doctrine of Buddha himself. It has been conclusively established by the researches of Kern, Minayef, Senart, Feer, Poussin, Lefmann, Winternitz, R. O. Franke, and others (including the writer(1) ) that the Pali Canon is a mosaic of material belonging to different ages and stages in the development of Buddhism; and that the words and theories put into the mouth of Buddha therein are largely the composition of monks who lived several centuries after Buddha's death, and considerably later than was estimated by Professor H. Oldenberg.(2) Herman 34716 From: Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Jon (and Rob) - In a message dated 7/20/04 11:15:58 PM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Jon [to Rob E]: > I agree with you on this last point. There is no question whatsoever as > to the usefulness of mindfulness of breathing in general, or of the > development of insight combined with mindfulness of breathing as described > in the Anapanasati Sutta. The only question is as to the 'applicability' > to you and me of what is described in that sutta – do we at this time fall > within the class of persons capable of putting into practice what is there > described? On this question, the details of the occasion and the audience > to whom the sutta was spoken will be relevant. > > To put that another way, is this particular passage to be read as a > general endorsement of anapanasati for all who want to develop mindfulness > (including relative beginners), or is it to be read as setting out a path > for those who are at the stage of development where they have the > potential for attainment of enlightenment (a) in this lifetime and (b) > with jhana as basis? > ========================== Just a few comments, Jon: 1) I do agree that anapanasati is a subtle practice and not nearly as "easy" as, say, concentration on an internally repeated manta (Skt. mantram). 2) I do not recall any sutta (or any mention in the Abhidhamma Sangaha) of mindfulness of the breath not being generally recommended, and, in fact, it is listed in both the Vimuttimagga and the Visuddhimagga as a meditation subject that is suitable for all personality types, and it is said that it can take one "all the way". 3) Mindfulness of the breath is the most widely practiced form of Buddhist meditation worldwide. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34717 From: Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 1:52am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination MarkI Hi, Herman - In a message dated 7/21/04 6:12:46 AM Eastern Daylight Time, hhofman@t... writes: > > Hi everyone, > > The Mahapadana Sutta is acknowledged by scholars as being the first > account of Paticcasamuppada. It may be of interest to some that this > original version has only 10 links, quoted as follows from > http://www.buddhistinformation.com/ida%5Fb%5Fwells%5Fmemorial%5Fsutra%5F > library/mahapadana_sutta.htm: > > "And then, monks, the Bodhisattva thought, "With what being present, > does aging and death occur? What conditions aging and death?" And then, > monks, as a result of wisdom born of profound consideration the > realization dawned on him, "Birth being present, aging and death occurs, > birth conditions aging and death." > > "Then he thought, "What conditions birth?" And the realization dawned on > him, "Becoming conditions birth". "What conditions becoming?". "Clinging > conditions becoming.". "Craving Conditions clinging". "Feeling > conditions craving.". "Contact conditions feeling". "The Six sense Bases > condition contact". "Mind and body condition the six sense bases". > "Consciousness conditions mind and body". And then the Bodhisattva > Vipassi thought, "With what being present does consciousness occur? What > conditions consciousness?" And then, as a result of the wisdom born > profound consideration, the realization dawned on him, "Mind and body > conditions consciousness'." > > NB the end is that mind and body condition consciousness, preceded by > consciousness conditioning mind and body > > There is no mention of avijja and sankhara. > > ======================== This *is* interesting. Of course, there are numerous formulations that the Buddha gave with varying numbers of links. I suspect that differing formulations involved differing emphases. This particular formulation, like the Sheaves of Reeds sutta, seems to emphasize what Ven. Nanananda refers to as the vi~n~nana-namarupa vortex (what I think of as the "subjectivity-objectivity" vortex). Many formulations, of course, emphasize ignorance, inasmuch as its eradication by the "sword of wisdom" is the coup de grace. Also *some* formulation had to be the first! ;-) However, I must admit it is interesting that the first one included the mutuality of vi~n~nana and namarupa, and starts with that. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34718 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 7:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Howard Thanks for coming in with these comments. > 1) I do agree that anapanasati is a subtle practice and not nearly as > "easy" as, say, concentration on an internally repeated manta (Skt. mantram). Well, no samatha is "easy", but not so much because of the concentration aspect, more because of the kusala aspect, which is something else again. As regards the relative difficulty of different objects of samatha, I can only rely on sources such as the Visuddhi-Magga which, as you know, indicates that anapanasati is appropriate for the great disciples, and that the nimitta becomes more subtle as the level of samatha increases. > 2) I do not recall any sutta (or any mention in the Abhidhamma > Sangaha) of mindfulness of the breath not being generally recommended, and, in fact, > it is listed in both the Vimuttimagga and the Visuddhimagga as a meditation > subject that is suitable for all personality types, and it is said that it can > take one "all the way". Yes, but neither of these aspects relates to its level of difficulty, or whether it is generally endorsed by the Buddha for all who want to develop mindfulness. > 3) Mindfulness of the breath is the most widely practiced form of > Buddhist meditation worldwide. That may be so, but shouldn't we be more concerned with what the texts have to say about it? I suspect its popularity may be largely due to people's reading of the Anapanasati Sutta as a general endorsement of anapanasati for all who want to development insight, and this I believe to be a misreading. Jon 34719 From: Antony Woods Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 2:29am Subject: Kamma and Its Fruit by Nyanaponika Thera http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php?showtopic=6572 34720 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the cycle of > dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly how and > where kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. Some moments of kusala no doubt, perhaps of a level not normally experienced. I am wondering if conscious effort for the arising of that kusala was necessary, or whether the kusala occurred of its own conditions ;-)) Jon I believe that kamma is > related to > paticcasamuppada mainly with respect to two links, the sankhara phase, > and the > bhava phase. ... 34721 From: nina van gorkom Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 10:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Intro Tiika Vis. XIV, 88 op 21-07-2004 04:01 schreef LBIDD@w... op LBIDD@w...: > N: "As Acharn Sujin wrote in ³Survey of Paramattha Dhammas²: ....When he realizes > dhammas which appear as impermanent he becomes liberated (realizes the > four noble Truths) by the emancipation of signlessness (animitta > vimokkha). When he realizes dhammas as dukkha he becomes liberated by > the emancipation of desirelessness (appa.nihita vimokkha). When he > realizes dhammas as anattaa, non-self, he becomes liberated by the > emancipation of voidness (suññatta vimokkha).>" L: Are these three emancipations (signless, desireless, and voidness) > associated with the three dhammas of the mental body, feeling, > perception, and mental formations? Perception is particularly associated > with signs and identity (this is different from belief in a self). N: I understand your association of perception and remembrance, saññaa and nimitta, image. Saññaa accompanies each citta and remembers or marks the object. It also accompanies paññaa. But here there is another context about signlessness we have to look at. I shall explain more below. As we read about nibbana: Signlessness can mean: void of ³signs², characteristics of conditioned realities. Nibbana is the unconditioned dhamma, that is emphasized here. Signless can also mean: without the signs of distortion or perversity, seeing permanence in what is impermanent. This is an explanation in another way, I shall quote below. L:With > grasping, a mental formation, belief in self arises. N: As I quoted: nibbana is called . This is the gateway to liberation for the person who realizes the nature of dukkha of the dhamma that appears. This is not dukkha in the sense of unhappy feeling, it is the Truth of dukkha inherent in all conditioned dhammas that arise and fall away and are thus no refuge, not worth clinging to. So long as the impermanence of dhammas is not realized their nature of dukkha is not really understood. L: And finally the > basis of desire is feeling. N: As I quoted: without any basis of desire, namely, conditioned realities. You think of another context, that of the Deopendent Origination: feeling conditions craving. But see above:here the context is the gateway to liberation for the person who realizes dukkha. Thus, in order to understand the three gateways we have to pay attention to the three characteristics. **************** ******************* L: Also it is interesting to note that in English "grasping" can mean > "understanding". This fits well with ditthi (view) which is also mental > formation. I've been reading Nagarguna's MMK and that ends with an > analysis of the emptiness of views. N: We have to be careful how and when we use the English word grasping that has more meanings. Again, the context has to be studied. Does it stand for clinging or for understanding, that is the question. I think that it does not help to make associations with the three khandhas as you do. This whole section is only about the development of pañña, and together with it the development of all the enlightenment factors. We should remember that the three characteristics of impermanence, dukkha and anatta are more clearly understood during the process of the development of vipassana pañña. In the course of insight pañña becomes more detached from conditioned dhammas, turns away from them. Let me quote again: (Ps. II, 58. Path of Discrimination, Treatise on Liberation.)> It is emphasized that the six purifications have to be developed in due order. Thus, back to basics! We have to understand what dhamma is that appears now. When we have a pain, can we make it go away whenever we want to? It has no owner, no possessor, it arises because there are conditions for it, then it falls away. Everything that arises must have conditions for its arising, it cannot arise alone, all by itself. Everything that appears now falls away very fast. It does not return. We have to understand this in our own life, otherwise all the study is useless. Is there anything that belongs to us, eyesense, earsense? We have to see and hear different things, but can we control what we see and hear? Seeing and hearing have already arisen, how can we prevent them from arising? Some dhammas cognize, know, feel or think. Some dhammas do not know anything, like hardness, this does not have any life. Gradually we can find out that there are two different kinds of dhamma: nama and rupa. When stages of insight arise, it can be directly realized that nama and rupa which arise are conditioned, without thinking about conditions. Then it will be clearer that they truly have no possessor. We may say that dhammas are void, but it has to be realized that they are void. As to the Triple Gateway to Liberation, there is another way of formulating, but we should not forget that insight has to be developed in stages. It cannot be immediately realized that this or that dhamma is not self, it is a long process. We read in the Co. to the Abh. Sangaha (T.A. p. 358): Pañña leads to detachment but we have to start from scratch. Nina. 34722 From: Herman Hofman Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 3:52pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi Jon, >That may be so, but shouldn't we be more concerned with what the texts >have to say about it? I am quoting the above without a context, because I feel that the above line typifies your general emphasis, which is not on the "it", nor the application of the "it", it is on the texts, as texts. Now it is true, the texts are there, so they are a possible candidate for emphasis, even undue emphasis. But it requires a very large stretch of the imagination to consider the texts as a unit, a whole. As an example, I am attempting to demonstrate elsewhere that there are very large divides between the original statement of dependent origination, which is a whole in itself, to the Patthana and its treatment of paccaya, quite another whole, to the treatment of it all in the Vis. There is a traceable development of thought within this tradition, which demonstrates that, at least at some times, this tradition was a living, evolving thing. And because this tradition was a living thing, it cannot be consulted about what it says as a whole, about certain matters, because there is no wholeness there. What it says at the beginning is not the same as what it says at the end. In the hundreds and thousands of years of the evolution of the Buddhist tradition much material has been ingested and integrated, and much material has been rejected, just like with any other living thing. What the tradition was at any point of time is not the same as what it was at any other time. So, when referring to the texts, one must either cite the whole lot, or underscore in the reference that personal emphasis and selection has come into play. This leaves us in a place of greater self-reliance than where we started from. There are alternatives to the "texts only" approach, but this post is long enough as it is :-) Herman 34723 From: Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 0:09pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/21/04 11:09:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, all - > > > > A "light bulb" lit up yesterday. I was thinking about the cycle > of > >dependent origination from the momentary perspective and exactly how and > >where kamma fits into it, when the bulb lit up. > > Some moments of kusala no doubt, perhaps of a level not normally > experienced. I am wondering if conscious effort for the arising of that > kusala was necessary, or whether the kusala occurred of its own conditions > ;-)) > > Jon > ===================== Well, how kusala or not I can't say. But as far as effort is concerned, the Buddha recommended it in the form of right effort, which as I understand it has four aspects: effort to enable kusala states to arise, effort to increase kusala states that have already arisen, effort to lessen akusala states already arisen, and effort to prevent new akusala states from arising. Now, I believe that conscious effort is an important condition for achieving this, but, in any case, I understand the efforts coming under "right effort" to be subtle for the most part, consisting very little in confrontational attempts at direct, forceful mind control, but much more in engaging in regular preparation by contemplation of the Dhamma, calming the mind through sila and samadhi, and, with a degree of understanding and right intention as background developed by such study and training, cultivating, by regular practice, a high level of consistent attention and mindfulness in order to "see" what's happening. Maintaining a high level of consistent attention to engage in the kusala/akusala monitoring is like standing guard at the gate of the city, watching carefully who is entering or trying to, and responding according to instructions: stop the terrorists (akusala), but permit - even encourage - the good visitors (kusala). Such a guard requires prior instruction (pariyatti) and much hands-on training (patipatti) to properly carry out his responsibilities. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34724 From: ericlonline Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:58am Subject: [dsg] Re: Consolation Looks like the web site is back up. You can find the article I mentioned here. It is called crossing the creek. http://crossingthecreek.com/main_index.htm PEACE E 34725 From: ericlonline Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 11:46am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hey All, my comments follow below Rob: Although you know that I personally believe that mindfulness of breathing is a useful focus for all who want to develop mindfulness, I certainly find your argument interesting and am glad to have such a clear statement of it. I don't doubt that those whom Buddha was addressing in this sutta were advanced practitioners and that this may have had some influence on the subject matter, but i don't think that it rules out the usefulness of what he is describing. Jon: I agree with you on this last point. There is no question whatsoever as to the usefulness of mindfulness of breathing in general, or of the development of insight combined with mindfulness of breathing as described in the Anapanasati Sutta. The only question is as to the 'applicability' to you and me of what is described in that sutta – do we at this time fall within the class of persons capable of putting into practice what is there described? On this question, the details of the occasion and the audience to whom the sutta was spoken will be relevant. To put that another way, is this particular passage to be read as a general endorsement of anapanasati for all who want to develop mindfulness (including relative beginners), or is it to be read as setting out a path for those who are at the stage of development where they have the potential for attainment of enlightenment (a) in this lifetime and (b)with jhana as basis? E: Do you breath? If so, then Anapanasati is appropriate for you. OK that was a bit extreme but you know what I mean. :-) Rob: If you feel that mindfulness of breathing is very difficult and reserved for those who have already cultivated samatha with breathing as object, it seems to me that you would also acknowledge the extreme difficulty of actually perceiving the arisal of rupas and namas in the moment, as is the aim of Abhidhamma. Could anything be more difficult than that? Jon: Again, I agree with this observation. In my view, the difficulty of both mindfulness of breathing and insight development are severely underestimated. But of the two, the development of insight is infinitely more difficult, both in terms of the opportunity of hearing the right explanation and in terms of understanding what is involved. The teaching on samatha bhavana is extant in the world long after the dhamma has disappeared. E: What do you mean here Jon about the 'dhamma has disappeared'? Jon: Indeed, that is one reason why in my view our energies should be concentrated in this lifetime on studying what the Buddha had to say about vipassana. (A minor quibble. The actual perception of arisen namas and rupas is not the aim of just the Abhidhamma, but is the aim of the suttas and the Vinaya also, I believe.) Rob, I appreciate your comments and contribution to this discussion. I hope I have managed to get across that our difference is not so much on the question of whether mindfulness of breathing is a high level of kusala or not, nor on whether it was widely practised in the Buddha's time, nor whether it may in certain circumstances be the basis for the development of insight and indeed enlightenment (there is no dispute from me on any of these points), but on the question of how relevant the Anapanasati Sutta is to you and me as regards the development of insight at the present moment, in our lives as we presently live them. E: IMHO insight will not arise without samatha. I dont think 'insight' can be cultivated but concentration sure can be. My first meditation teacher said that there is no such thing as Vipassana meditation practice. He said, "It is called Satipatthana. Vipassana arises as a result of the correct practice of Satipatthana." If you look at Satipatthana and Anapanasati, they would seem to have more in common then not. The 4 foundations correspond to the 4 tetrads of Anapanasati. And here is one that is going to make you think (I hope). Buddhadasa said that real Vipassana does not arise until step 13 of Anapanasati. If that is true, coupled with the comments of how difficult Anapanasati is above, then what are all the 'Vipassana' meditators really doing? PEACE E 34726 From: Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:19pm Subject: Vism.XIV 89 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 89. II. The 'unprofitable' is one kind according to plane, being only of the sense sphere. It is of three kinds according to root, as (a) rooted in greed, (b) rooted in hate, and (c) rooted in delusion. 34727 From: nori Date: Wed Jul 21, 2004 8:25pm Subject: Re: Is sensual pleasure and stimulation necessary for a healthy life? hi Dhamma friends, Thank you Andrew and Huajun for your comments. The reason for my post ... Throughout most of my life I have kept myself happy with - (apart from the striving for becoming to satisfy my ego) ... sensual pleasures; pursuing them and indulging in them. As a kid, I sought sensual pleasures by going outside and playing with friends, climbing on things, jumping off of things and performing daring stunts, playing games and various sports, watching TV shows, going to the movies, playing with toys, video games, etc. As I got older: going to parties, listening to music, playing music, drinking alchohol & smoking ganga with friends, indulging in sensual sex with girlfriends, hanging out acting foolish, etc.; your typical American life. I went from sensual pleasure to sensual pleasure, and kept myself fairly happy as long as they lasted. In some moments between these pleasures, I was faced with loss, craving and suffering when there was no fun to be had due to whatever reasons (e.g. friendships breaking up, working a full time job, etc.) In the doctrine of Gotama Buddha, he teaches how sensual pleasures will never lead to fullfillment, that they are temporary, and will ultimately lead to craving and suffering, thus he teaches: [1] Majjhima Nikaya 66 Latukikopama Sutta The Quail Simile http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn066.html "And, Udayin, there are these five strings of sensuality. Which five? Forms cognizable via the eye -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. Sounds cognizable via the ear... Aromas cognizable via the nose... Flavors cognizable via the tongue... Tactile sensations cognizable via the body -- agreeable, pleasing, charming, endearing, fostering desire, enticing. These are the five strings of sensuality. Now, any pleasure & happiness that arises dependent on these five strings of sensuality is called sensual pleasure, a filthy pleasure, a run-of-the-mill pleasure, an ignoble pleasure. And of this pleasure I say that it is not to be cultivated, not to be developed, not to be pursued, that it is to be feared." ... and so having faith in the Gotama, I ceased to have the intention and agenda of seeking out and indulging in sensual pleasures. Currently I am trying to cultivate a life of peace, solitude and contemplation, happiness free from my dependence on sensual pleasures. But going from living a life which was so full of sensual pleasures to a life of peace, solitude and contemplation, I started feeling depravation of sensual pleasures and stimulation; as if my body needed it like food. I was going through withdrawal. Instead of feeling happiness - freedom, pleasure and satisfaction from renunciation of sensual pleasure, I felt stress from the repression of my desire for sensual pleasure and stimulation. I started wondering if this was really healthy for me, and whether it was indeed the right path to take. I wondered in my times of stress if whether my life was better off in my old ways of seeking sensual pleasures to gain my temporary moments of happiness. I thought to myself : `at least in this way, I had some sort of happiness; and who knows for sure if there is transmigration anyway, maybe you die and that's that. Might as well have some kind of fun while we are here.' I didn't think this was a very good thought so I sought consolation by creating this post. I have to say, however uncertain, that overall I think I feel better and have less stress in my new life. I still do activities to satisfy my desires for sensual pleasure in more benign ways by going hiking in the mountains, riding my bike or something. I wondered if this desire for sensual pleasures would ever subside. I am informed by many in their replies that it would not completely subside until the stage of arahat. At that point, I suspect desires for sensual pleasure will be satisfied by the contentment of the Jhanas and knowing. I am comforted by knowing from some replies in other groups that there are those who have felt and experienced this. metta, nori 34728 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:00am Subject: Egypt Post: Suffering Dear Friends, Let me share a story about the suffering inherent in life. I have a friend who is spending two weeks in Agami with his brother, cousins, and parents. Agami is a small town on the Red Sea that has very little to offer in the way of entertainment. There are no malls, movie theatres, and very few shops and restaurants. In a word, it is BORING! I have been calling my friend periodically to see how his stay is going. I have heard various tales about what he and his friends have done to eliminate the boredom. First, they rented motorcycles and drove them around, but that didn't last. Then they looked for easy girls and/or prostitutes to have sex, but that didn't last. Then they went swimming for several days, but that didn't last. Then they bought beer and got drunk, but that didn't last. Finally, they ran out of things to do. My friend got so depressed and despondent that he told me that he has been thinking a few times about throwing himself in the ocean. (Of course he wouldn't do it, he assured me, but he was thinking about it). The last time I called him he told me that he got food poisoning and that he was dizzy and constantly going to the bathroom. I said that I was sorry to hear that and that he should take some medicine right away. He told me that his dad wasn't back with the car yet and that he would ask him when he came back, even though he had been sick like this for practically a whole day! I told him that he needed to hurry up and get some medicine and he told me, "Don't worry about it. Actually, I'm glad I got food poisoning. At least it's some kind of entertainment." I couldn't believe my ears! Aren't we all like this? Aren't we all trying to devise as many ways as we can to escape the suffering that is inherent in life? As my example illustrates, the desire to escape this suffering can become so great that even food poisoning turns into a form of entertainment. My friend now thinks that everything will be much better for him when he ends this "mandatory vacation" and returns to the big city, but will it? What he doesn't realize is that the intense suffering he is feeling now will also follow him to the big city. Sure, he will have a lot more things to do to distract him from this suffering, but it will still be there. Even if he kills himself, he will just be reborn somewhere else and the suffering will continue. When I ponder this quagmire of suffering that we are all caught in, and the only solution for us all that the Buddha found, my appreciation of the Buddhadhamma grows to a point beyond description. Just thought I would share. Metta, James 34729 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:10am Subject: Re: Consolation/Eric Hello Eric, No the person hasn't died yet, though several times in the last ten days she has given great cause for concern. (My lady mother has been in and out of intensive care - currently she is 'out' in an ordinary room and undergoing never-ending tests. Her condition fluctuates, and with it our emotions. Just another frail elderly woman, but all the world to us. ) Kisagatami has always been a favourite - I used to work in Maternity before moving over to Emergency Department, ICU, and medical wards. I can recall thinking initially that the Buddha ought to have offered more comfort to the bereaved young mother, maybe even a miracle {I smile at that now} - but have grown to see that he was gently leading her to realise the truth of her loss, and normalise her grief as part of the common suffering that all beings inescapably experience. Thank you for the article "Crossing the Creek" - I've paid the 'print it yourself' fee and find it very suitable for work at the hospital, and will give it to colleagues as well. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34730 From: Rangana Mudunkotuwa Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 2:49am Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right hi friends i am sinhalese lady dont you have any thing in sinhala thanks >From: "Philip" >Reply-To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com >Subject: Re: [dsg] Got in a fight but all is right >Date: Tue, 20 Jul 2004 11:40:05 -0000 > > > Hi Sarah > > > S: of course there are suttas specifically about the 8 worldly >conditions: > > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-006.html > > Ph: Thanks for that. Funny, I'd printed out most of the AN suttas >available at Access to Insight but had missed that one. > > (snip) 34731 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:12am Subject: Re: Consolation/Sarah Hello Sarah, Intellectually I know that worry is dosa which arises because of attachment and lack of really understanding anatta. I wonder just how many lives I have yet to live before I can regard my mother's worsening health with indifference. Nanda's mother is quite a way further down the Path than I! I am worried enough about my son going for six months backpacking through Cambodia, Thailand, Syria, India and Nepal starting next week - I can't imagine an ordinary human being reacting like Nanda's mother. And, of course, she wasn't an ordinary human being - she was one of the holy ones. [I was hoping it was a Jataka tale (smile), but I see it truly is a sutta]. I found the Ven. Bhikkhu Dhammapiyo's (BTW where is he now?) post regarding the Buddha's discourse to the Kosalan ... thanks for mentioning it. It is a real help. The Buddha was quite uncompromising when speaking of reality - the truth of the Truth- speaker's words doesn't change. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/3921 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34732 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:14am Subject: Re: Consolation/Bill Hello Bill, I found the article by Ajahn Chah "Our Real Home" at: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/bps/leaves/bl111.html Thank you. I hadn't read it before, but have it in my favourites now - and, among other vital truths - it reminded me of the irredeemable debt of gratitude we owe our parents: "One who is nursing parents should fill his or her mind with warmth and kindness, not get caught in aversion. This is the one time when you can repay the debt you owe them. From your birth through your childhood, as you've grown up, you've been dependent on your parents. That we are here today is because our mothers and fathers have helped us in so many ways. We owe them an incredible debt of gratitude." and "These are the only parents you've got. They gave you life, they have been your teachers, your nurses and your doctors -- they've been everything to you. That they have brought you up, taught you, shared their wealth with you and made you their heirs is the great beneficence of parents. Consequently the Buddha taught the virtues of kataññu and katavedi, of knowing our debt of gratitude and trying to repay it." metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34733 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:16am Subject: Re: Consolation/Philip Hello Philip, Here is another translation that doesn't use the word 'sturdy'..which may have been an affectionate description of the physical or psychological attributes of the Bhikkhuni ... I.1 -- An Anonymous Bhikkhuni {v. 1} "Sleep, little theri, sleep comfortably, wrapped in the robe that you've made, for your passion is stilled -- like a pot of pickled greens boiled dry." I also think about death on a daily basis - I can hardly avoid it in my work - but I think this is a good thing. Yes, I remember the tradition of reciting a person's good deeds - I think it has to do with mental factors attached to the cuti- citta 'the death consciousness' and it's role in determining where one's next life will be. Keeping a person calm and aware of good deeds may condition a kusala citta to arise at just the right time. (I'm sure if I've got this a little wrong, someone will tell me :-)) Though it sounds a little like eternalism, the Buddha DID tell a husband and wife how to ensure they would be together after death. It is a sutta in the Anguttara Nikaya: 5. Pañhamasamajãvãsuttaü - The first on living, on equal status. 006.05. At one time the Blessed One was living in the deer park in the Besakala forest among the Sumsumara peaks in the Bhagga country. The Blessed One putting on robes in the morning and taking bowl and robes approached the home of the householder Nakulapita, and sat on the prepared seat. The householder Nakulapita and his wife approached the Blessed One, worshipped and sat on a side. Then the householder Nakulapita said thus to the Blessed One. Venerable sir, from the day I brought Nakulamata in her childhood, even as a child, I do not know of her mind looking outside, and never desiring outside bodily contacts. Venerable sir, we desire to know each other here and now, so also here after. Then the householder's wife, Nakulamata too said thus to the Blessed One. Venerable sir, from the day I was brought by Nakulapita in my childhood, even as a child I do not know of his mind looking outside, and never desiring outside bodily contacts. Venerable sir, we desire to know each other here and now, so also here after. Householders, if husband and wife wish to know each other here and now, both should be endowed with the same measure of faith, virtues, benevolence, and wisdom. Then they will know each other here after as well. Both virtuous, generous, restrained and living righteously They are the couple who speak to each other lovingly. Results would be abundant, the living together will be meaningful. Enemies, of the two with equal virtues, would be unhappy The couple will lead a happy life here and now And enjoy heavenly sensual bliss after death. www.metta.lk/tipitaka/2Sutta-Pitaka/4Anguttara-Nikaya/ Anguttara2/4- catukkanipata/006-punnabhisandavaggo-e.htm metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34734 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:17am Subject: Re: Consolation/Nina Hello Nina, Thank you for your post. It's sentiments are very like those expressed by by Ajahn Chah in the article Bill recommended. Life is short, it dwindles down in suffering towards death. It is the same for all of us. That's just the way it is. Yes, I agree with you, we should make the most of this short time - but how hard it is to arouse samvega, even with the appropriate 'sources of emotion', birth, old age, disease, and death. metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that we think we have time--- 34735 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:24am Subject: For Rangana Mudunkotuwa Hello Rangana, There are translations of the suttas in Pali, English, and Sinhala at: http://www.metta.lk/tipitaka/ but probably you were already aware of that site? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Rangana Mudunkotuwa" wrote: > hi friends > > i am sinhalese lady > dont you have any thing in sinhala > > thanks > 34736 From: Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 1:51am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Post: Suffering Hi, James - In a message dated 7/22/04 5:04:02 AM Eastern Daylight Time, buddhatrue@y... writes: > > Dear Friends, > > Let me share a story about the suffering inherent in life. I have a > friend who is spending two weeks in Agami with his brother, cousins, > and parents. Agami is a small town on the Red Sea that has very > little to offer in the way of entertainment. There are no malls, > movie theatres, and very few shops and restaurants. In a word, it > is BORING! I have been calling my friend periodically to see how > his stay is going. I have heard various tales about what he and his > friends have done to eliminate the boredom. First, they rented > motorcycles and drove them around, but that didn't last. Then they > looked for easy girls and/or prostitutes to have sex, but that > didn't last. Then they went swimming for several days, but that > didn't last. Then they bought beer and got drunk, but that didn't > last. Finally, they ran out of things to do. My friend got so > depressed and despondent that he told me that he has been thinking a > few times about throwing himself in the ocean. (Of course he > wouldn't do it, he assured me, but he was thinking about it). The > last time I called him he told me that he got food poisoning and > that he was dizzy and constantly going to the bathroom. I said that > I was sorry to hear that and that he should take some medicine right > away. He told me that his dad wasn't back with the car yet and that > he would ask him when he came back, even though he had been sick > like this for practically a whole day! I told him that he needed to > hurry up and get some medicine and he told me, "Don't worry about > it. Actually, I'm glad I got food poisoning. At least it's some > kind of entertainment." I couldn't believe my ears! > > Aren't we all like this? Aren't we all trying to devise as many > ways as we can to escape the suffering that is inherent in life? As > my example illustrates, the desire to escape this suffering can > become so great that even food poisoning turns into a form of > entertainment. My friend now thinks that everything will be much > better for him when he ends this "mandatory vacation" and returns to > the big city, but will it? What he doesn't realize is that the > intense suffering he is feeling now will also follow him to the big > city. Sure, he will have a lot more things to do to distract him > from this suffering, but it will still be there. Even if he kills > himself, he will just be reborn somewhere else and the suffering > will continue. > > When I ponder this quagmire of suffering that we are all caught in, > and the only solution for us all that the Buddha found, my > appreciation of the Buddhadhamma grows to a point beyond > description. Just thought I would share. > > Metta, James > ========================= Thank you for this post! You have hit on something here that I believe is *very* important yet rarely discussed - the dukkha of boredom! As you often do, you have zeroed in on something incredibly important, especially when you wrote the following in speaking of your friend: "The last time I called him he told me that he got food poisoning and that he was dizzy and constantly going to the bathroom. I said that I was sorry to hear that and that he should take some medicine right away. He told me that his dad wasn't back with the car yet and that he would ask him when he came back, even though he had been sick like this for practically a whole day! I told him that he needed to hurry up and get some medicine and he told me, 'Don't worry about it. Actually, I'm glad I got food poisoning. At least it's some kind of entertainment.' I couldn't believe my ears!" It is true that we strange creatures will run even towards what is painful and harmful in order to escape boredom. Among the chief things we crave is excitement, and we will often be willing to pay an extreme price for it. Years ago the actor, George Sanders, committed suicide. He left a simple note of explanation: "I'm bored" it read. Until (and if) we reach the point where excitement is no longer craved, what, besides being aware of that craving, can we do to avoid the excesses it can lead to? I think that we must "start where we are" and engage in a form of sublimation. If we crave what is "exciting, different, and unusual," then let us look among all such things for any that might have genuine value to them and little harm, and let us direct our energies there. There are many such things, and for those of us who have had some of our eye-dust removed and have come to glimpse the truth of the Dhamma, the jhanas rank highly among those dhammas that are kusala but also "exciting, different, and unusual" and worthy of acquiring if not mastering. I put this out, along with cultivation of constant attention to whatever arises "at ordinary times", as a suggestion to be considered by us for the "solution" to the dukkha of boredom. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34737 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 6:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Eric --- ericlonline wrote: > Hey All, ... > E: Do you breath? If so, then Anapanasati is appropriate for you. OK > that was a bit extreme but you know what I mean. :-) J: Yes, I agree ;-)). There are opportunities for anapanasati for every being who breathes (namely, at times when breath is the object of consciousness). However, the Anapanasati Sutta deals with mindfulness of breathing in a very particular circumstances, and I don't think there is much there that applies to you and me at the present moment. ... > E: What do you mean here Jon about the 'dhamma has disappeared'? J: I mean that, according to the texts, the teaching that is peculiar to a Buddha does not remain but gradually gets corrupted and forgotten until it disappears altogether. Some time later an new Buddha will arise and reintroduce the teaching. > E: IMHO insight will not arise without samatha. I dont > think 'insight' can be cultivated but concentration sure can be. My > first meditation teacher said that there is no such thing as > Vipassana meditation practice. He said, "It is called Satipatthana. > Vipassana arises as a result of the correct practice of > Satipatthana." J: I think for most purposes we can treat vipassana and satipatthana as synonyms. Both refer to the direct awareness of and insight into a presently arising dhamma (reality). > If you look at Satipatthana and Anapanasati, they would seem to have > more in common then not. The 4 foundations correspond to the 4 > tetrads of Anapanasati. J: In my view, the Anapanasati Sutta is not about the development of anapanasati for beginners but about how a person skilled in anapanasati can, while continuing with that development, also develop insight to the point of enlightenment with jhana as base. > And here is one that is going to make you think (I hope). Buddhadasa > said that real Vipassana does not arise until step 13 of > Anapanasati. If that is true, coupled with the comments of how > difficult Anapanasati is above, then what are all the 'Vipassana' > meditators really doing? J: I think this observation may depend on a particular interpretation of the Anapanasati Sutta that I do not share ;-)) Jon 34738 From: buddhatrue Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:25am Subject: Re: Egypt Post: Suffering Friend Howard, Howard: There are many such things, and for those of us who have had some of our eye-dust removed and have come to glimpse the truth of the Dhamma, the jhanas rank highly among those dhammas that are kusala but also "exciting, different, and unusual" and worthy of acquiring if not mastering. I put this out, along with cultivation of constant attention to whatever arises "at ordinary times", as a suggestion to be considered by us for the "solution" to the dukkha of boredom. James: Yes, I very much agree with you. I have taught my friend meditation and encouraged him to practice it (He isn't Buddhist, but he wants to develop my psychic abilities; to him, they are "so cool" ;-). But, like many people, he is attracted to how `exciting, different, and unusual' meditation is but isn't willing to put forth the effort to do it. Meditation is hard work! But to those who practice, the rewards are truly phenomenal…better than popcorn and a movie! ;-)). Metta, James 34739 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:33am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > > > >That may be so, but shouldn't we be more concerned with what the texts > >have to say about it? > > I am quoting the above without a context, because I feel that the above > line typifies your general emphasis, which is not on the "it", nor the > application of the "it", it is on the texts, as texts. I would say that the emphasis is on the texts as the best source of the teachings of the Buddha who, as far as I can tell, knew all about the 'it' and explained the 'it' in as great detail and as many ways as he could in the time available > Now it is true, the texts are there, so they are a possible candidate > for emphasis, even undue emphasis. But it requires a very large stretch > of the imagination to consider the texts as a unit, a whole. As an > example, I am attempting to demonstrate elsewhere that there are very > large divides between the original statement of dependent origination, > which is a whole in itself, to the Patthana and its treatment of > paccaya, quite another whole, to the treatment of it all in the Vis. An interesting hypothesis. I am a little puzzled as to how someone who has never read the Abhidhamma could have come to a positive conclusion on the matter (other than by reliance on others' writings ;-)) but I look forward to your further posts on the subject. ... > This leaves us in a place of greater self-reliance than where we started > from. > > There are alternatives to the "texts only" approach, but this post is > long enough as it is :-) Thanks for sharing your thoughts. A closing question: Have you ever learnt anything truly of value that does not form part of the teachings as recorded in the texts? Jon 34740 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:44am Subject: Re: [dsg] Dependent Origination and Kamma Hi, Howard I believe I detect in your comments below at least a nod in the direction of kusala being able to arise unprompted by conscious effort on our part ;-)). Once one accepts that, it puts a different complexion on the possibility of awareness and understanding arising at times other than those times when the thought is in our mind. I was pleased to see your reference to the importance of pariyatti. It is a necessary first step, in my view. Jon --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, Jon - > > In a message dated 7/21/04 11:09:59 AM Eastern Daylight Time, > jonoabb@y... writes: > > > Hi, Howard > > > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, all - ... > Well, how kusala or not I can't say. But as far as effort is > concerned, the Buddha recommended it in the form of right effort, which > as I understand > it has four aspects: effort to enable kusala states to arise, effort to > increase kusala states that have already arisen, effort to lessen > akusala states > already arisen, and effort to prevent new akusala states from arising. > Now, I > believe that conscious effort is an important condition for achieving > this, but, > in any case, I understand the efforts coming under "right effort" to be > subtle for the most part, consisting very little in confrontational > attempts at > direct, forceful mind control, but much more in engaging in regular > preparation > by contemplation of the Dhamma, calming the mind through sila and > samadhi, and, > with a degree of understanding and right intention as background > developed by > such study and training, cultivating, by regular practice, a high level > of > consistent attention and mindfulness in order to "see" what's happening. > > Maintaining a high level of consistent attention to engage in the > kusala/akusala > monitoring is like standing guard at the gate of the city, watching > carefully who > is entering or trying to, and responding according to instructions: stop > the > terrorists (akusala), but permit - even encourage - the good visitors > (kusala). > Such a guard requires prior instruction (pariyatti) and much hands-on > training (patipatti) to properly carry out his responsibilities. > > With metta, > Howard 34741 From: ericlonline Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 11:54am Subject: Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hey Jon, ... > E: Do you breath? If so, then Anapanasati is appropriate for you. OK that was a bit extreme but you know what I mean. :-) J: Yes, I agree ;-)). There are opportunities for anapanasati for every being who breathes (namely, at times when breath is the object of consciousness). However, the Anapanasati Sutta deals with mindfulness of breathing in a very particular circumstances, and I don't think there is much there that applies to you and me at the present moment. E: Dont sell yourself short Jon. No one knows what the next moment may bring! ... > E: What do you mean here Jon about the 'dhamma has disappeared'? J: I mean that, according to the texts, the teaching that is peculiar to a Buddha does not remain but gradually gets corrupted and forgotten until it disappears altogether. Some time later an new Buddha will arise and reintroduce the teaching. E: Yes, I have read it before. The old 500 years and that is it for the Dhamma. Just did not think many people believed it. It seems to undermine ones practice. Almost a resignation that you have to wait your turn for the next turning of the wheel. Why shoot yourself in the foot? "He who sees Dependent Origination sees the Dhamma and he who sees the Dhamma sees the Buddha." -- > E: IMHO insight will not arise without samatha. I dont > think 'insight' can be cultivated but concentration sure can be. My > first meditation teacher said that there is no such thing as > Vipassana meditation practice. He said, "It is called Satipatthana. > Vipassana arises as a result of the correct practice of > Satipatthana." J: I think for most purposes we can treat vipassana and satipatthana as synonyms. Both refer to the direct awareness of and insight into a presently arising dhamma (reality). E: I dont think so Jon. There is a big difference between the foundation or frame of reference one is looking thru and the insights that 'may' arise. If they were the same, then everyone would 'realise' the same insight once the frame was set up and that surely is not the case now is it? ---- E> If you look at Satipatthana and Anapanasati, they would seem to have more in common then not. The 4 foundations correspond to the 4 > tetrads of Anapanasati. J: In my view, the Anapanasati Sutta is not about the development of anapanasati for beginners but about how a person skilled in anapanasati can, while continuing with that development, also develop insight to the point of enlightenment with jhana as base. E: Yes this is the commentarial view of it right? Use Anapanasati to develope jhana between steps 4 and 5. But there is no mention of jhana in the Sutta itself. Why? Here is what Thanissaro says about the Anapanasati Sutta in his intro to it. "One of the most important texts for beginning and veteran meditators alike..." May I ask you a personal question? Have you ever been instructed in Anapanasati by a senior monk or meditator? Have you ever practised it in earnest? ---- > And here is one that is going to make you think (I hope). Buddhadasa said that real Vipassana does not arise until step 13 of > Anapanasati. If that is true, coupled with the comments of how > difficult Anapanasati is above, then what are all the 'Vipassana' > meditators really doing? J: I think this observation may depend on a particular interpretation of the Anapanasati Sutta that I do not share ;-)) E: You sound like my first meditation teacher. He did not hold Buddhadasa up to much esteem either. Although I have never met him, I have met a handful of his students who had many rains. They are all upstanding monks. Even those that were not his students and had met him show nothing but a deep respect for him. If emptiness arises in meditation then what Buddhadasa had to say in this regards has a lot of merit! PEACE E 34742 From: ericlonline Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 0:16pm Subject: Re: Consolation/Eric Hey Christine, C > No the person hasn't died yet, though several times in the last ten days she has given great cause for concern. (My lady mother has been in and out of intensive care - currently she is 'out' in an ordinary room and undergoing never-ending tests. Her condition fluctuates, and with it our emotions. Just another frail elderly woman, but all the world to us. ) E > I am so sorry to hear that. But you are fortunate to have such good relations with your mom. I am at odds with mine currently (long story). C > Kisagatami has always been a favourite - I used to work in Maternity before moving over to Emergency Department, ICU, and medical wards. E > Are you a nurse? You sound like one of the complete strangers that nursed me back to health when I had an emergency appendectomy from an almost septic appendix last summer. They rekindled my faith in humanity! C > I can recall thinking initially that the Buddha ought to have offered more comfort to the bereaved young mother, maybe even a miracle {I smile at that now} - but have grown to see that he was gently leading her to realise the truth of her loss, and normalise her grief as part of the common suffering that all beings inescapably experience. E > Yes, quite an amazing teacher now wasn't he! And only using a mustard seed none the less! No doctries or long drawn out analysis. :-) C > Thank you for the article "Crossing the Creek" - I've paid the 'print it yourself' fee and find it very suitable for work at the hospital, and will give it to colleagues as well. E > You are more than welcome! metta and peace, Christine Indeed PEACE & Love, E 34743 From: Herman Hofman Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 3:50pm Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Is sensual pleasure and stimulation necessary for a healthy life? Hi Nori, Thank you for your post. I can relate to what you are saying. James is writing on the same wavelength too. (Thanks, James :-)) There is another sensual pleasure I am aware of which, when it goes unnoticed, is a big black hole that soaks up all the effort and determination a person can muster and brings them to naught. It is the feeding of the intellect, the thinking machine. It does not matter what the activity is, it is the motivation that underlies the activity that bears its fruit. Even the filling of the mind with wholesome thoughts and ideas can be just a smokescreen to avert the awareness from the intolerable dukkha of "just being". And as long as that dukkha is prevented from rising to awareness, we will keep feeding that untamed monster, the mind, as though we are feeding a dearly-loved friend. All the best Herman hi Dhamma friends, Thank you Andrew and Huajun for your comments. The reason for my post ... Throughout most of my life I have kept myself happy with - (apart from the striving for becoming to satisfy my ego) ... sensual pleasures; pursuing them and indulging in them. 34744 From: Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 0:41pm Subject: The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi, all - In the Upanissa Sutta, the Buddha said "Knowledge & vision of things as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite." With metta, Howard P.S. This doesn't say "sole prerequisite," and it doesn't say how *much* concentration, though it must be enough to bother talking about(!), and, IMO, this statement says enough for one to realize on the basis of it not to shortchange concentration, because a prerequisite is a *necessary* condition - a "without which, not" condition! /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34745 From: christine_forsyth Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 5:25pm Subject: Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hello Eric,(Jon), all, ... Butting in briefly ... The Anapansati Sutta has been a Hot Topic on dsg, with many people holding differing opinions. If you go to Useful Posts and read the 59 posts (!) there under 'A' Anapanasati (Breath Meditation) starting at post number 2141 of 29 Nov. 2000, you may find much food for thought and, I'll bet, further discussion. (smile) http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" 34746 From: kenhowardau Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 7:53pm Subject: Eternalism on ATI Hi All, The website, Access to Insight (ATI), is often quoted as a resource on DSG. After a brief examination of the site, I find myself in disagreement with the main viewpoints espoused by its publisher, John Bullitt, and its chief contributor, Bhikkhu Thanissaro. I interpret their general opinion to be as follows: There clearly is a self, and it would be ridiculous to say otherwise. However, thoughts of self (and of not-self) agitate the mind and an agitated mind is not free. Therefore, when we meditate, we put aside thoughts of self. After completely freeing our minds in this way, we will no longer need the anatta technique and we will be free to enjoy the eternal bliss of Nibbana. (end of my summary) It is none of my business that ATI would want to disseminate such views, but I can't help worrying about beginners who might go to that site for guidance. It is, after all, a good source of sutta translations. If any DSG members disagree with my assessment, please say so, I would be happy to be corrected. If my reservations are correct, however, people should be fully aware of this issue when they use and direct others to ATI. Kind regards, Ken H 34747 From: Sukin Date: Thu Jul 22, 2004 10:12pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi Rob, > I also wanted to apologize to Sukin for not replying to his last post > on the topic of meditation, which is related to this thread. I have > been contemplating his post for about a month, and still haven't > gotten it together to reply properly. Sukin, I'm still working on it! No need to apologize Rob. Though I was expecting a reply and wondered why you han't responded, I too have been quite busy and would have had difficulty finding time to respond. But I do look forward to any post from you and appreciate this one that you now reposted. ;-) Metta, Sukin > --- Robert Epstein wrote: > > > Sorry, Jon, > I found this message from > > what > > seems to be a couple of months ago. Sorry that it slipped through the > > cracks. > > Although you know that I personally believe that mindfulness of > > breathing is a > > useful focus for all who want to develop mindfulness, I certainly find > > your > > argument interesting and am glad to have such a clear statement of it. > > I don't > > doubt that those whom Buddha was addressing in this sutta were advanced > > practitioners and that this may have had some influence on the subject > > matter, but > > i don't think that it rules out the usefulness of what he is describing. > > > > If you feel that mindfulness of breathing is very difficult and > reserved > > for those > > who have already cultivated samatha with breathing as object, it seems > > to me that > > you would also acknowledge the extreme difficulty of actually perceiving > > the > > arisal of rupas and namas in the moment, as is the aim of Abhidhamma. > > Could > > anything be more difficult than that? > > > Best, > > Rob Ep. 34748 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 0:43am Subject: RE: [dsg] Re: Zzz Zzz Zzz practice.... Hi Herman, --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Sarah, > > By coincidence, I was just doing a bit of browsing re the seven factors > that lead to hibernation :-) You are not mentioned in the list at all, > so rest easy. > > Hibernation happens for many reasons, ego mostly :-) > > I missed you too and nice to have you and Jon back. .... S: Many thanks for your kind comments and welcome. Look forward to reading the other six factors in due course :-) Herman, you’ve been raising a number of interesting (and controversial of course) issues, many of which I’d be glad to discuss further. If you don’t mind, I’ll just give some cryptic comments in point form for now -- plunging into any controversy -- and see what happens: 1. D.O. -variations in order and sequence. I quoted a passage from the Dispeller on the reasons for this before and I think BB discusses the same order as the Mahapadana sutta in his intro to the Mahanidana sutta. By ‘mind and body’ are meant the cetasikas and rupas in this context, conditioning cittas and vice versa. 2. The fact that much of the Pali canon was uttered by other Theras does not mean it cannot be regarded as Word and Doctrine of the Buddha (Buddhavacana). Lots more on this before which I can fish out. The first ch in the commentary to the Udana, Enlightenment, starts with several pages discussing ‘eva.m me sutta.m’ and its various meanings. One brief quote from here for consideration: “...the Word of the Lord is ‘one whose Dhamma, meaning, teaching and piercing are profound’. It ‘reaches the ear-channel of all beings in a manner suited their own individual mode of speech (bhaasa)’, since one sole bellow of Dhamma-teaching on the part of the Lord, occurring within a single moment, simultaneously reaches the grasp of beings of divers modes of speech by way of each one’s own mode of speech - for unthinkable is the Buddha-majesty of the Buddhas.” Another meaning refers to the fact “I am not a Self-Evolved One; it was not by me that this was realised.” Elsewhere we’ve given quotes to stress that whatever was spoken by the Theras in conformity with the Teachings is the Buddha’s Word. 3. You say ‘there is no mention of an abhidhamma at the First Council’. I’ve quoted extensively before from the commentary to the Vinaya and Expositor which discuss the 3 Pitakas as rehearsed at the First Council, usually referred to as the Dhamma-Vinaya. What are you basing your comment on? 4. MN143 - great sutta, thanks. Yes, it takes up a lot less space than our posts or the Abhidhamma. However, Anathapindika was a sotapanna and had been listening to the Buddha direct for a long time before he was able to fully appreciate these words on detachment from clinging to the senses as given by Sariputta to him on his death-bed. We need to hear and consider again and again, I think. 5. Pariyatti. I think we can put it that associating with the wise etc are the conditions for pariyatti leading to patipatti to develop. If there’s no hearing or considering, no patipatti. They must refer to understanding rather than ‘learning the Scriptures by heart’. Again in the Udana comy, Meghiya ch, it discusses at length the expression in the Udana ‘One with a lovely friend (kalyaa.namitto) and how it’s primary for living the Brahmacariya and ‘pre-eminent on account of its being of great service to all skilled states, conduces to liberation of heart’s full maturity by way of causing there to be purified (the faculties of) faith and so on that are as yet unpurified.’ Now, I think again, it always comes back to wisdom and conditions for one’s own reflection and understanding to grow rather than any situational requirements such as having to jet off to Bangkok ;-). I wrote a post quite recently lots of quotes on the meaning of ‘sappurisa’ (good friend). Let me know if you missed it! 6. Hearing vs Reading and your ‘quirky’ ‘chasm’ - again I think it comes back to conditions and understanding which change from moment to moment. One can day-dream whilst reading or listening for example. 7. Discrediting the Dhamma definitely started as soon as the Buddha started teaching, not just after with writing. 8. Sabba Sutta and TB’s comments - lots of discussion before. See ‘Sabba’ in U.P. if at all inclined to pursue. Of course in the case you gave, TB’s comments on the commentary are his speculations, but the commentary itself is factual and in conformity with the suttas and other texts;-). That’s it for now. Metta, Sarah > It was snowing here this morning. It was a condition for me to feel cold > :-) .... S: Lots of lobha just thinking about our walks out into deep snow on Swiss mountains - a couple of days a year is enough for our ‘fix’:-) =================== 34749 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: some caution and non-advice Dear Bhinnatta, You had some great discussions with KenH and others while we were away. There were several comments you made that I put aside to discuss further, but I’m checking to see if you’re around before I say too much. Just a couple of examples here: --- Sujjhana Bhinnatta wrote: > The Kathavatthu's contribution was precisely in eliminating the > absolutist, > essentialist, or reductionist perspectives. "No one reading the > excessively > long debate in the Kathavatthu on the conception of a person could > assert > that the Abhidhamma deals with ultimate realities." (Kalupahana in A > History > of Buddhist Philosophy, p145) .... S: I discussed a similar point with another friend, Michael. I think Kalupahana is very much in error in his assessment of the Kathavatthu which most definitely deals with paramattha dhammas (ultimate realities): From the comy to the first chapter: ‘Real’; not taken as an effect of magic or mirage, actual. “ultimate’: highest sense, not taken from tradition, or hearsay. ‘Known’ as one of the fifty-seven ultimates of our conscious experience.’ The purpose of the first chapter is indeed to show that the teachings are concerned with truths or ultimate realities and that ‘the conception of a person’ is not an ultimate reality. I also disagree with your comments at the end of this post, but am more than happy to discuss them further, especially the ones on the Abhidhamma texts. I think we have a different understanding on ‘ultimate realities’ and this is a recurring theme on DSG;-). One other brief comment you made related to BB’s note on p.136 on dhammaaramma.na. He was merely listing and discussing the various kinds of objects of cittas in a mind-door process.He wrote: ‘Citta is also a type of mental object. Though citta experiences objects, citta in turn can become an object.’ You wondered about whether a citta or cetasika can be the object of awareness in isolation, but in fact, there is only ever one object of a citta, accompanied by its retinue of cetasikas which may include awareness. This can be any of those objects including the citta that has just fallen away such as seeing or hearing consciousness. I’ll wait to hear from you before confusing everyone further. These were all good points you raised. Metta, Sarah ===== B: > Eliminating this belief in "ultimate realities," one is able to explain > the > contents of the Abhidhamma in terms of the two main teachings of the > Buddha, > namely anatta and paticcasamuppada. <...> > The vibhanga then is an analytical process attempting to determine the > contextual meaning of a concept. Thus giving any ultimate reality to > these > concepts, consists in just the type of wrong view being discussed by > Moggaliputta-tissa in the Kathavatthu and by later Buddhists in the > perfection of wisdom literature (Vajracchedika). Furthermore, it must be > seen by the student of Abhidhamma that giving absolute status to such > concepts is not in line with the Buddha's teaching on anatta. <.....> 34750 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic thoughts on Sati (awareness), Samahdi (concentration) and Anapana Hi Nori & All, I’m very glad to read your posts again- I always enjoy your reflections and the sharing of your reading, dilemmas and practice. I’m touching on two of your posts here: --- nori wrote: > hi all, > Examples of scattered and focused Sati/mindfulness/Awareness: > > Lets say we are sitting in a room and there are lots of people > talking. If we do not focus our awareness we would hear just an > ocean of sounds. However, our awareness is directable, and > concentrate-able so we can, by our will and intention, focus on a > particular person, and a particular voice, and now when we do this, > we can 'discern' that one voice, his words and then interpret what > he is saying. > > Another example: You stop while driving for directions and while > someone is telling you directions, somebody else in the car is > talking to you. Now your awareness is split up between both people > talking to you. It is more likely that since your awareness was > divided, that you will not retain those directions; where as if you > had focused your complete attention/awareness on the person giving > you the directions, you would have had a more intense/distinct > experience of it, and you would retain the experience better in this > case. .... S: I think these are good examples of what we’re used to considering as being mindfulness or awareness conventionally but they are not examples, as I understand, of sati accompanying all wholesome consciousness and particularly not of sati in satipatthana which is not a focussing or ‘retaining in memory’. This kind of focussing or retaining you describe is seldom wholesome as I see it and doesn’t require a Buddha to teach it. Kids playing computer games are experts! ... Jumping to your ‘is sensual pleasure......’ post, I thought it was beautifully written and raised important concerns. I think the difficulties and stress related that your refer to tend to be related to deeply-held ideas of self and control and setting of rules for ourselves. It’s one thing to see the value in reflecting on and appreciating the dangers of sensual pleasures and another to try and orchestrate a lifestyle that is devoid of these, not realizing that the accumulated tendencies and attachments can arise at anytime, whether on the mountain bike (I’m keenly following Lance Armstrong in the Tour du France), in the forest or kuti. Wishing that sensual pleasures would subside is bound to lead to more stress because at these times there is no equanimity, but merely more ‘disquietness of heart’. This doesn’t mean I’m advocating you revert to ‘your typical American life’, but understand that whatever namas or rupas arise now, are conditioned and can be known. In a post to Christine, I referred to a sutta about Uttara, Nanda’s mother, who experienced no ‘disquietness of heart’ when her son was slain and so on. The reason I find such suttas to be so very inspiring is certainly not because there is or would be any lack of ‘disquietness’ in my own heart, but because life is so very tough when we experience great loss and to a lesser extent on a daily basis, that it is with great appreciation and gratiude that we can read about those ‘sappurisa’ or noble friends who penetrated the Truths, developed wisdom with detachment and found the way to overcome Suffering in its deepest sense as applying to all conditioned dhammas. As James put it: “When I ponder this quagmire of suffering that we are all caught in, and the only solution for us all that the Buddha found, my appreciation of the Buddhadhamma grows to a point beyond description.” Metta, Sarah ====== - 34751 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] sensual pleasures increase craving Hi Antony, It's good to see you around again. --- Antony Woods wrote: > Buddha said: > > "...beings not free from passion for sensual pleasures -- > devoured by sensual craving, burning with sensual fever -- > indulge in sensual pleasures. The more they indulge in > sensual pleasures, the more their sensual craving > increases and the more they burn with sensual fever..." > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn075.html .... Thank you for referring us to this sutta which contains many wonderful passages. I like these ones later on in the sutta too (Nanamoli/Bodhi transl): "So too, Maagandiya, if I were to teach you the Dhamma thus: This is that health, this is that Nibbaana,' you might know health and see Nibbaana. Together with the arising of your vision, your desire and lust for the five aggregates affected by clinging might be abandoned. Then perhaps you might think: 'Indeed, I have long been tricked, cheated, and defrauded by this mind. For when clinging, I have been clinging just to material form, I have been clinging just to feeling, I have been clinging just to perception, I have been clinging just to formations. I have been clinging just to consciousness. With my clinging as condition, being [comes to be]. with being as condition, birth; with birth as condition, ageing and death, sorow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despeair come to be. Such is the origin of this whole mass of suffering." .... Isn't it true? Aren't we tricked, cheated and defrauded by the mind all the time into thinking it's something other than the clinging to the 5 khandhas -- the sensual craving -- that is bringing all this 'whole mass of suffering'? isn't it madness to 'burn with sensual fever' on account of namas and rupas? ..... "Then, Maagandiya, associate with true men. When you associae with true men, you will hear the true Dhamma. When you hear the true Dhamma, you will practise in accordance with the true Dhamma. When you practise in accordance with the true Dhamma, you will know and see for yourself thus: 'These are diseases, turmours, and darts; but here these diseases, tumours, and darts cease without remainder. With the cessation of my clinging comes cessation of being; with the cessation of being, cessation of birth; with the cessation of birth, ageing and death, sorrow, lamentation, pain, grief, and despair cease. Such is the cessation of this whole mass of suffering." ..... Antony, hope you'll share some of your own reflections on these or other passages and that we all get to see the khandhas or being the diseases, tumours or darts which they are -- not worthy of clinging to. Metta, Sarah ====== 34752 From: sarah abbott Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:29am Subject: yahoo mail - search feature Dear Friends, I've just found out that with the recent yahoo mail changes there is now one great other improvement along with the increased memory. If you get the DSG (or other group) mail in your in box, there is an excellent search function at the top of the page which can find any mail in your files with particular terms or a name. I just used it to quickly track all the letters I've just responded to. (I used to use escribe for this, but the latter is still down. This also has the advantage of bringing up the letter for direct reply). For some people it might be worth opening a yahoo account and getting the mail in it just for this search purpose, especially if one skips at times (heh, Rob Ep) and wishes to quickly find any mail with one's name included;-) Metta, Sarah ======= 34753 From: gazita2002 Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 2:30am Subject: Re: Egypt Post: Suffering --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "buddhatrue" wrote: > Dear Friends, > > Let me share a story about the suffering inherent in life. I have a > friend who is spending two weeks in Agami with his brother, cousins, > and parents. Agami is a small town on the Red Sea that has very > little to offer in the way of entertainment. There are no malls, > movie theatres, and very few shops and restaurants. In a word, it > is BORING! Friend James, Why do I find this so real? because it is - for me anyway. I was even glad when my computor crashed, then I could go to town to use the internet cafe and listen to the good music they play and be surrounded by interesting looking people. I really relate to your friends in this story, it is so me! Your story has made me laugh, but I hope your friend is OK now. Food poisoning is soooooo unpleasant. I have been calling my friend periodically ntil to see how > his stay is going. I have heard various tales about what he and his > friends have done to eliminate the boredom. .....snip...... > last time I called him he told me that he got food poisoning and > that he was dizzy and constantly going to the bathroom. ....snip.... > Aren't we all like this? Aren't we all trying to devise as many > ways as we can to escape the suffering that is inherent in life? As > my example illustrates, the desire to escape this suffering can > become so great that even food poisoning turns into a form of > entertainment. My friend now thinks that everything will be much > better for him when he ends this "mandatory vacation" and returns to > the big city, but will it? What he doesn't realize is that the > intense suffering he is feeling now will also follow him to the big > city. Sure, he will have a lot more things to do to distract him > from this suffering, but it will still be there. Even if he kills > himself, he will just be reborn somewhere else and the suffering > will continue. > > When I ponder this quagmire of suffering that we are all caught in, > and the only solution for us all that the Buddha found, my > appreciation of the Buddhadhamma grows to a point beyond > description. Just thought I would share. > > Metta, James Thank you for sharing this story; a condition for me to think about the things I do to 'escape' boredom. Patience, courage and good cheer, Azita. 34754 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi, Ken - In a message dated 7/22/04 10:54:46 PM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi All, > > The website, Access to Insight (ATI), is often quoted as a resource > on DSG. After a brief examination of the site, I find myself in > disagreement with the main viewpoints espoused by its publisher, > John Bullitt, and its chief contributor, Bhikkhu Thanissaro. > > I interpret their general opinion to be as follows: > > There clearly is a self, and it would be ridiculous to say > otherwise. > > However, thoughts of self (and of not-self) agitate the mind and an > agitated mind is not free. > > Therefore, when we meditate, we put aside thoughts of self. > > After completely freeing our minds in this way, we will no longer > need the anatta technique and we will be free to enjoy the eternal > bliss of Nibbana. > > (end of my summary) > > It is none of my business that ATI would want to disseminate such > views, but I can't help worrying about beginners who might go to > that site for guidance. It is, after all, a good source of sutta > translations. > > If any DSG members disagree with my assessment, please say so, I > would be happy to be corrected. If my reservations are correct, > however, people should be fully aware of this issue when they use > and direct others to ATI. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > =========================== I understand your concern, but I think it is incorrect to characterize the venerable's position (as given in detail on Access to Insight at the url: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/notself.html ) as "There clearly is a self, and it would be ridiculous to say otherwise. However, thoughts of self (and of not-self) agitate the mind and an agitated mind is not free." I do *not* think he asserts that there is a self - in fact he urges one not to so assert. I see his "position" as being the "nonposition" which cautions against holding views of how things are, as opposed to directly "seeing" reality. In this regard, he seems to say that conceptual positions, whether pro-self or anti-self, all miss the mark in carrying with them substantialist or nihilist (or both) presumptions that have no relation to the way things really are, but necessarily mischaracterize reality. In particular, he warns against thinking and speaking in terms of "I have (or do not) have a self," which, of course, by turns, a) begs the question, and b) is self-contradictory. I see his position as the pragmatic one that holding a view on self, and being upset at the idea of not holding one, is a clinging to view, a clinging to concepts afflicted by reification or nihilism, which is a sabotaging substitute for direct realization of reality. I believe his point is that the Buddha did not attempt to inculcate views, but rather to provide the means to free oneself of views (and, of course, of everything else), replacing views by direct knowing. The venerable does not claim there is no reality to know, but only that the knowing must not be a matter of view, but of wisdom. Whether the venerable, in his heart of hearts, implicity tends towards substantialism-eternalism is unknown to me, but I don't think that he explicitly defends either this position or the opposite position of nihilism-annihilationism, but, in fact, is a defender of the middle way which avoids the extremes and which is reality-oriented rather than view-oriented. With all the foregoing having been said, I will yet say that I do not personaly believe there is any self or substance to be found in any dhamma anywhere. But I also realize that this belief is mostly a matter of view, and only slightly a matter of direct knowledge. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34755 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:32am Subject: Re: Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" <> May I ask you a personal question? Have you ever been instructed in > Anapanasati by a senior monk or meditator? Have you ever practised > it in earnest? +++++++++++ Dear Eric, I met a European monk who now has about 30 rains. He spent 7 years living in the jungles of Thailand devoted to anapanasati. He told me he was so sure that it was helping him but finally gave it up. I gave him one of Ninas books and he said that it goes to the heart of the Dhamma. He told me he still teaches breath to westerners because it is expected these days. I think it is not as easy as it first appears as samatha is always with detachment but I meet people who clearly grasp at the object. We cannot say that everyone will succeed with anapanasati, that is why there are many objects - such as Death (maransati) and Dhammanusati that also bring calm. ====================== > > >> E: You sound like my first meditation teacher. He did not hold > Buddhadasa up to much esteem either. Although I have never met him, I have met a handful of his students who had many rains. They are > all upstanding monks. Even those that were not his students and had > met him show nothing but a deep respect for him. > If emptiness arises in meditation then what Buddhadasa had to say in > this regards has a lot of merit!: Eric: IMHO insight will not arise without samatha. I dont > think 'insight' can be cultivated but concentration sure can be. +++++++++++++ As you are a student Of Buddhadasa I guess you follow his most popular book; Handbook for Mankind http://www.meta- religion.com/World_Religions/Buddhism/handbook_for_mankind_vii.htm """INSlGHT, BY THE NATURE METHOD In this chapter we shall see how concentration may come about naturally on the one hand, and as a result of organized practice on the other. The end result is identical in the two cases: the mind is concentrated and fit to be used for carrying out close introspection. One thing must be noticed, however: the intensity of concentration that comes about naturally is usually sufficient and appropriate for introspection and insight, whereas the concentration resulting from organized training is usually excessive, more than can be made use of. Furthermore, misguided satisfaction with that highly developed concentration may result. While the mind is fully concentrated, it is likely to be experiencing such a satisfying kind of bliss and well- being that the meditator may become attached to it, or imagine it to be the Fruit of the Path. Naturally occurring concentration, which is sufficient and suitable for use in introspection, is harmless, having none of the disadvantages inherent in concentration developed by means of intensive training. In the Tipitaka, there are numerous references to people attaining naturally all states of Path and Fruit. This generally came about in the presence of the Buddha himself but also happened later with other teachers. These people did not go into the forest and sit, assiduously practicing concentration on certain objects in the way described in later manuals. Clearly no organized effort was involved when arahantship was attained by the first five disciples of the Buddha on hearing the Discourse on Non - selfhood, or by the one thousand hermits on hearing the Fire Sermon. In these cases, keen, penetrating insight came about quite naturally. These examples clearly show that natural concentration is liable to develop of its own accord while one is attempting to understand clearly some question, and that the resulting insight, as long as it is firmly established must be quite intense and stable. It happens naturally, automatically in just the same way as the mind becomes concentrated the moment we set about doing arithmetic. Likewise in firing a gun, when we take aim, the mind automatically becomes concentrated and steady. This is how naturally occurring concentration comes about. We normally overlook it completely because it does not appear the least bit magical, miraculous, or awe inspiring. But through the power of just this naturally occurring concentration, most of us could actually attain liberation. We could attain the Fruit of the Path, Nirvana, arahantship, just by means of natural concentration. So don't overlook this naturally occurring concentration. It is something most of us either already have, or can readily develop. We have to do everything we can to cultivate and develop it, to make it function perfectly and yield the appropriate results, just as did most of the people who succeeded in becoming arahants, none of whom knew anything of modern concentration techniques. It is not a case of the mind's being rendered silent, hard and rocklike. Nothing like that happens at all. The body feels normal, but the mind is especially calm and suitable for use in thinking and introspection. It is perfectly clear, perfectly cool, perfectly still and restrained. In other words, it is fit for work, ready to know. This is the degree of concentration to be aimed for, not the very deep concentration where one sits rigidly like a stone image, quite devoid of awareness. Sitting in deep concentration like that, one is in no position to investigate anything. A deeply concentrated mind cannot practice introspection at all. It is in a state of unawareness and is of no use for insight. DEEP CONCENTRATION IS A MAJOR OBSTACLE TO INSIGHT PRACTICE.""" endquote I have met with a few of Buddhadasas students over the years and have been intrigued that all of then have emphasised special concentration, not one speaking about Buddhadasa's "natural method". RobertK 34756 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:22am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta In a message dated 7/23/04 7:11:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: have met with a few of Buddhadasas students over the years and have been intrigued that all of then have emphasised special concentration, not one speaking about Buddhadasa's "natural method". RobertK ====== Robert and Eric, The most prominant meditation teacher in the US who is a student of Buddhadasa, Santikaro Bhikkhu, calls it "just enough concentration." He teaches one to follow the Anapanasati Sutta and the required concentration happens without additional effort. Hi, Eric. Welcome to the list. Jack 34757 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta In a message dated 7/23/04 7:11:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: A deeply concentrated mind cannot practice introspection at all. It is in a state of unawareness and is of no use for insight. DEEP CONCENTRATION IS A MAJOR OBSTACLE TO INSIGHT PRACTICE.""" endquote ====== Robert, This is a major teaching of many Thera meditation teachers, Achan Sobin Namto, for one. jack 34758 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:58am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Jack (and Robert and Eric) - In a message dated 7/23/04 10:36:27 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: > Robert and Eric, > > The most prominant meditation teacher in the US who is a student of > Buddhadasa, Santikaro Bhikkhu, calls it "just enough concentration." He > teaches one to > follow the Anapanasati Sutta and the required concentration happens without > additional effort. > ====================== What you say about Santikaro Bhikkhu - BTW, I believe he is now disrobed - is correct. And Robert is correct in what he says about "natural meditation" as mentioned by Buddhadasa Bhikkhu in his "Handbook" and also, I think, in his "The Heartwood of the Bodhi Tree". However, in looking over Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's book "Mindfulness with Breathing: a Manual for Serious Beginners", he does present the 4th step of the 1st tetrad as a matter of attaining jhanas. So, it would seem that he views anapanasati, at least in its complete, 16-step form, as implementing not only vipassana bhavana but also the samatha bhavana of jhana cultivation. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34759 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:19am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta In a message dated 7/23/04 8:00:35 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: However, in looking over Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's book "Mindfulness with Breathing: a Manual for Serious Beginners", he does present the 4th step of the 1st tetrad as a matter of attaining jhanas. So, it would seem that he views anapanasati, at least in its complete, 16-step form, as implementing not only vipassana bhavana but also the samatha bhavana of jhana cultivation. === Howard. I don't think that "Mindfulness with Breathing" says that the 4th step is a matter of attaining jhanas. Look at p. 65, he says the jhanas are not necessary for step 4 or for anapanasati. It would be useful but not necessary. jakc 34760 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:27am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Jack - In a message dated 7/23/04 11:20:23 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: > Howard. > > I don't think that "Mindfulness with Breathing" says that the 4th step is a > matter of attaining jhanas. Look at p. 65, he says the jhanas are not > necessary > for step 4 or for anapanasati. It would be useful but not necessary. > > jakc > ========================= My apologies. You are completely right. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34761 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 4:43am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Howard, Didn't you say you were going to begin an intensive meditation period based on the Anapanasati Sutta? How are you going about it? Jack 34762 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 6:03am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Jack - In a message dated 7/23/04 11:44:50 AM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: > Howard, > > Didn't you say you were going to begin an intensive meditation period based > on the Anapanasati Sutta? How are you going about it? > > Jack > ======================== I don't think I said that. At one point a while ago I attended a one-day "retreat" on the Satipatthana Sutta, but it turned out to be mostly pariyatti. More recently I intended to sign up for a "silent illumination" retreat given by Ven Sheng-Yen, but the date was changed to a time I couldn't make. At this point I *have* signed up for a 10-day Goenka retreat in November. That will be my 2nd Goenka retreat. The first 2 to 3 days of it may consist of meditation on the breath, but for the most part it will consist of mindfulness of bodily sensations. Meanwhile, not on retreat, I am meditating on the breath regularly for at least two one-hour daily sittings. I intend to continue with this practice. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34763 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:00am Subject: Vis.XIV, 89, Intro and Summary of Tiika. Vis. 89: The 'unprofitable' is one kind according to plane, being only of the sense sphere. It is of three kinds according to root, as (a) rooted in greed, (b) rooted in hate, and (c) rooted in delusion. Pali Vis. 89. akusala.m pana bhuumito ekavidha.m kaamaavacarameva, muulato tividha.m lobhamuula.m dosamuula.m mohamuula~nca. Intro and Summary of Tiika 89: In the following sections, the Visuddhimagga explains about the akusala cittas which belong only to the plane of citta that is of the sense sphere, kamaavacaara, not to the planes of citta that are fine-material, ruupaavacaara, immaterial, aruupaavacara, or supramundane, lokuttara. The Tiika begins with an explanation of the word kaamaavacaara, sense sphere. We should return to Vis. XIV, 83 with the explanation of this term. Recapitulation of Tiika Note 36. ' "Sense sphere" (kaamaavacara): here there are the two kinds of sense desire (kaama), sense desire as basis (vatthu-kaama) and sense desire as defilement (kilesa-kaama). The basis of sense desire are the sense objects that are desired by the defilement of sense desire, kilesa kaama. This is called tanhaa, clinging. The Expositor (I, p. 82) explains that the basis of sense desire is the round of the triple plane of existence. Because of clinging one wants to be reborn. The triple plane of existence are the sensuous planes, the fine material planes and the immaterial planes. Plane of existence is the locality where one is reborn. There are eleven sensuous planes. Sensuousness frequents these sensuous planes, in these planes the basis of sense desire and sense desire prevail. We read in the Expositor : Cittas of the sensesphere also arise in ruupa-brahma planes and in aruupa brahma planes; cittas rooted in lobha, for example, arise in ruupa-brahma planes and in aruupa brahma planes. Cittas rooted in aversion do not arise there, since there are no condiitons for them in those planes. Seeing and hearing also arise in ruupa-brahma planes, but smelling, tasting and body-consciousness do not arise there. Those born in the ruupa-brahma planes have less conditions for sense impressions. However, cittas of the sensesphere arise in abundance in the sensuous planes of existence. We read in the Co to the Abhidhammattha Sangaha (Topics of Abhidhamma, p. 10): < Herein that which desires (kameti) is desire (kaama) or sensual craving. [Consciousness] where that desire is active (avacarati) in finding its objects belongs to the sphere of sense-desire (kaamaavacara.m). Alternatively, kaama is that which is desired, [that is,] elevenfold sense-sphere existence; because it is mostly active there, it belongs to the sphere of sense-objects (kaamaavacara.m)- for what is meant is its most common activity, even though [consciousness] that occurs in form and formless existences can still belong to the sphere of sense-desire. Alternatively, kaama is simply sense-sphere existence and what is active there is sense-sphere activity (kaamaavacaro) >. The text of the Tiika of Vis. 89 mentions that also in the planes of fine material existence, where someone is born as a result of Mahaggata citta (ruupa-jhaana kusala citta), there are vipaakacittas experiencing ruupadhaatu, elements which are ruupa, and that there are thus also cittas of the sense sphere. The Tiika mentions the eleven planes of existence of the sense sphere where clinging to sense objects, kaama tanhaa is active, and these are : from the lowest plane that is the aviici hell plane up to the highest sense sphere plane, the plane of the ³devas who wield power over the production of others² (paranimmita vasavatti). The Tiika explains the meanings of ³included (pariyaapanna) dhammas², and ³unincluded (apariyaapanna)dhammas². The unincluded dhammas are the supramundane dhammas. The Tiika states: < they are leading out from the world (lokato utti.n.nataaya lokuttarataa), their excellence should be known by their superior nature.> The dhammas that are called ³included² are all mundane dhammas. We read in the Expositor (I, p. 67): The Tiika only summarizes here the three unwholesome roots, akusala hetus: attachment, lobha, aversion, dosa and ignorance, moha. It explains that they are like roots because they cause akusala citta to be firmly established on them. We can be reminded that roots are very powerful conditions. Just as a tree receives sap through the roots in order to grow, evenso are the akusala cittas dependent on the akusala roots. Many akusala cetasikas accompany akusala cittas, but only three among them are roots, hetus. There are twelve types of akusala cittas and these are classified as three groups in accordance with the accompanying roots. Each akusala citta is rooted in moha, ignorance, and it may have in addition the root of lobha, attachment or of dosa, aversion. Muula is another word for root. Eight types of akusala cittas are called lobha-muula-cittas, two types are called dosa-muula-cittas and two types are called moha-muula-cittas. In the following sections they shall be dealt with. ****** Nina. 34764 From: nina van gorkom Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:00am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration. Hi Howard, Yes, I agree. You remember, I wrote something about this interesting sutta. I like to add more. I shall go into some suttas. op 23-07-2004 01:41 schreef upasaka@a... op upasaka@a...: > > In the Upanissa Sutta, the Buddha said "Knowledge & vision of things > as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite." > P.S. This doesn't say "sole prerequisite," and it doesn't say how *much* > concentration, though it must be enough to bother talking about(!), and, IMO, > this> statement says enough for one to realize on the basis of it not to > shortchange concentration, because a prerequisite is a *necessary* condition - > a "without which, not" condition! N: Yes, right concentration is compared to a wetnurse in the Co to the much quoted sutta: S.N. IV, 80 (§ 99 ); develop concentration... Samadhi is paraphrased as one-pointedness. A wetnurse: very important for an infant in olden times. Another sutta: S.N. V, 144 ( On Satipatthana, 4, Saala. The Buddha says: "Come you, friends, do you abide in body contemplating body (as transient), ardent, composed and one-pointed, of tranquil mind, calmed down, of concentrated mind, for insight into body as it really is." And the same for the other three objects of satipatthana. Co notes, to one-pointed: ekodi bhuuta: by a momentary concentration (kha.nika samaadhi) become one-pointed and tranquillized. And to concentrated: by way of access and attainment concentration (jhana). Then another sutta: Gradual Sayings, book of the Tens, Ch I, § 1. In a way similar to the Upanissa sutta it is explained how from one condition follows the next one. We read: "Knowing and seeing things as they really are (yathaabhuuta ñaa.na dassana) is the object and profit of concentration." We read that the next steps are revulsion (nibbida) and fading of interest (viraga)and then release by knowing and seeing. We read in the Co that Knowing and seeing things as they really are is the first stage of tender insight, vipassana that is weak, and that revulsion (nibbida) is vipassana as power, this means, vipassana that has been developed already and which becomes detached form nama and rupa. We read that fading of interest is already the Path-consciousness, and that release is the fruition of arahatship and that knowing and seeing is his reviewing knowledge, paccavekkha.na ñaa.na. The next sutta, § 2, is very interesting: Thinking with intention. For each of the previous conditions it is said that one step arises naturally, dhammataa, from the previous one. thus: When we see how conditions naturally evolve there will be less inclination to try to do specific things with an idea of "I do it." I think that your post with the simile was well expressed. You take into account different conditions and among them pariyatti: < standing guard at the gate of the city, watching carefully who is entering or trying to, and responding according to instructions: stop the terrorists (akusala), but permit - even encourage - the good visitors (kusala). Such a guard requires prior instruction (pariyatti) and much hands-on training (patipatti) to properly carry out his responsibilities.> N: I would like to add that the guard has to be instructed about the Troyan horse. A foe, akusala, can enter disguised as a friend, kusala. Lobha is so tricky. There is wrong concentration accompanying lobha and even lobha with wrong view, and there is right concentration. In the course of insight right concentration naturally develops, it becomes stronger because of conditions. Some people developed jhana and indeed the texts about access and attainment concentration apply to them. Some did not, and their concentration was only momentary concentration. We read that the conditions for insight are: association with the right person who can explain the dhamma, listening, practice in accordance with the dhamma. In order to listen and consider, concentration is needed, but together with sati sampajañña, sati and pañña. Imagine, when one thinks of the nice food that is going to be served while listening to the Dhamma, how can one get anything that is being explained, there woul not be any concentration. This happened while sitting and listening somewhere outside in Thailand, the Thai food smelled so good. But of course, there can be awareness and understanding of the smell of food or of the attachment to it, and then there is understanding but also concentration. Anything can be object of satipatthana. When one begins to be aware, the object is one nama or one rupa at a time. One-pointedness is needed, but together with understanding. This does not mean that one tries to select nama and rupa and tries to concentrate on specific ones, because then the present dhamma has fallen away already, and we shall never understand anatta. I think it is just a natural process. When there is right understanding it is accompanied by right concentration. Throughout the development of insight concentration grows naturally. We cannot do without concentration, but this does not mean: I have to try very hard to be concentrated. Then there is bound to be an idea of self who does it all. The Abhidhamma helps us to understand that all these factors are cetasikas arising because of the appropriate conditions, cetasikas which perform functions. If we forget this, we read all the suttas with wrong understanding and wrong view. The Buddha said: develop concentration, develop understanding, be aware. This means: concentration develops, understanding develops, awareness arises, but his words can be an exhortation, a condition for the arising of all those qualities which are cetasikas, devoid of self. To conclude: we should not belittle the role of concentration but neither should we lose sight of proportions. We should always consider the context where the word concentration is used and compare text with text, compare sutta and abhidhamma. Whenever we read about samadhi, no matter it is of the degree of jhana or momentary concentration, we should remember that it is samadhi of mental development, bhaavanaa. And bhaavanaa cannot be without sati sampajañña, sati and pañña. Thus, concentration, but never without sati sampajañña, is a prerequisite for seeing things as they are: the arising of stages of insight, direct understanding. And this is another level of pañña, another step, it is no longer intellectual understanding. There have to be pañña, sati and also one-pointedness on the nama and rupa that appear one at a time, so that their different characteristics are seen more and more clearly, so that in the course of insight they are seen as impermanent, dukkha and anatta. Pañña, sati and samadhi and all the enlightenment factors that develop together along with satipatthana are necessary conditions for enlightenment. We read about samadhi but we should not forget all the suttas about the enlightenment factors. At the moment of enlightenment pañña is lokuttara and the accompanying samadhi has the strength of jhana because of conditions: nibbana is the object. This is far away. I do not see things as they really are yet, but I feel that the very beginning of development has to be right. It is counter productive to try very hard to concentrate on nama and rupa, that is bound to be done with self. Then it is not mental development. The idea of self is not eradicated but it is not right to think, well it does not matter to do things with an idea of self. Then wrong view will only be accumulated and grow evermore. Understanding has to be keen and detect exactly when the idea of self slips in. Pañña, sati, concentration and all sobhana cetasikas have to grow naturally. See the sutta. Your remark was a condition for me to be very concentrated on concentration! Nina. 34765 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 7:08am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta In a message dated 7/23/04 10:06:18 AM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > Howard, > > Didn't you say you were going to begin an intensive meditation period based > on the Anapanasati Sutta? How are you going about it? > > Jack > ======================== I don't think I said that. [snip] Meanwhile, not on retreat, I am meditating on the breath regularly for at least two one-hour daily sittings. I intend to continue with this practice. ====== Howard, I was referring to your daily practice referred to above. Are you going to go thru the Anap. Sutta steps? Or, do you mean anapanasati practice as general mindfulness of breathing? jack 34766 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:42am Subject: Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hey Robert, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" <> May I ask you a personal question? Have you ever been instructed in > Anapanasati by a senior monk or meditator? Have you ever practised > it in earnest? +++++++++++ Dear Eric, I met a European monk who now has about 30 rains. He spent 7 years living in the jungles of Thailand devoted to anapanasati. He told me he was so sure that it was helping him but finally gave it up. I gave him one of Ninas books and he said that it goes to the heart of the Dhamma. He told me he still teaches breath to westerners because it is expected these days. I think it is not as easy as it first appears as samatha is always with detachment but I meet people who clearly grasp at the object. E: Sure nothing is 'easy', it all requires energy, discernment, etc. What you mention about grasping during samatha is more an issue with the practitioners than the practice. R: We cannot say that everyone will succeed with anapanasati, that is why there are many objects - such as Death (maransati) and Dhammanusati that also bring calm. E: Of course, success in anything (except death and taxes :) is not guaranteed. The point brought up a few posts ago was the relevance to a beginners practice. A beginner can stay in the first tetrad if they wish for years. There is a lot to learn there. I am also not saying this should be ones sole practice. I for one am all over the place but I have found Anapanasati to be invaluable with regards to acquiring referential experience in regards to the Dhamma. ====================== > > >> E: You sound like my first meditation teacher. He did not hold > Buddhadasa up to much esteem either. Although I have never met him, I have met a handful of his students who had many rains. They are > all upstanding monks. Even those that were not his students and had > met him show nothing but a deep respect for him. > If emptiness arises in meditation then what Buddhadasa had to say in > this regards has a lot of merit!: Eric: IMHO insight will not arise without samatha. I dont > think 'insight' can be cultivated but concentration sure can be. +++++++++++++ R: As you are a student Of Buddhadasa I guess you follow his most popular book; Handbook for Mankind http://www.meta- religion.com/World_Religions/Buddhism/handbook_for_mankind_vii.htm E: I am more a student of his students as I never met him. But I am familiar with the information in the quote below. It is in other places and his students talk about it (at least the ones I know). Buddhadasa: """INSlGHT, BY THE NATURE METHOD In this chapter we shall see how concentration may come about naturally on the one hand, and as a result of organized practice on the other. The end result is identical in the two cases: the mind is concentrated and fit to be used for carrying out close introspection. One thing must be noticed, however: the intensity of concentration that comes about naturally is usually sufficient and appropriate for introspection and insight, whereas the concentration resulting from organized training is usually excessive, more than can be made use of. Furthermore, misguided satisfaction with that highly developed concentration may result. While the mind is fully concentrated, it is likely to be experiencing such a satisfying kind of bliss and well- being that the meditator may become attached to it, or imagine it to be the Fruit of the Path. Naturally occurring concentration, which is sufficient and suitable for use in introspection, is harmless, having none of the disadvantages inherent in concentration developed by means of intensive training. In the Tipitaka, there are numerous references to people attaining naturally all states of Path and Fruit. This generally came about in the presence of the Buddha himself but also happened later with other teachers. These people did not go into the forest and sit, assiduously practicing concentration on certain objects in the way described in later manuals. Clearly no organized effort was involved when arahantship was attained by the first five disciples of the Buddha on hearing the Discourse on Non - selfhood, or by the one thousand hermits on hearing the Fire Sermon. In these cases, keen, penetrating insight came about quite naturally. These examples clearly show that natural concentration is liable to develop of its own accord while one is attempting to understand clearly some question, and that the resulting insight, as long as it is firmly established must be quite intense and stable. It happens naturally, automatically in just the same way as the mind becomes concentrated the moment we set about doing arithmetic. Likewise in firing a gun, when we take aim, the mind automatically becomes concentrated and steady. This is how naturally occurring concentration comes about. We normally overlook it completely because it does not appear the least bit magical, miraculous, or awe inspiring. But through the power of just this naturally occurring concentration, most of us could actually attain liberation. We could attain the Fruit of the Path, Nirvana, arahantship, just by means of natural concentration. So don't overlook this naturally occurring concentration. It is something most of us either already have, or can readily develop. We have to do everything we can to cultivate and develop it, to make it function perfectly and yield the appropriate results, just as did most of the people who succeeded in becoming arahants, none of whom knew anything of modern concentration techniques. It is not a case of the mind's being rendered silent, hard and rocklike. Nothing like that happens at all. The body feels normal, but the mind is especially calm and suitable for use in thinking and introspection. It is perfectly clear, perfectly cool, perfectly still and restrained. In other words, it is fit for work, ready to know. This is the degree of concentration to be aimed for, not the very deep concentration where one sits rigidly like a stone image, quite devoid of awareness. Sitting in deep concentration like that, one is in no position to investigate anything. A deeply concentrated mind cannot practice introspection at all. It is in a state of unawareness and is of no use for insight. DEEP CONCENTRATION IS A MAJOR OBSTACLE TO INSIGHT PRACTICE.""" endquote R: I have met with a few of Buddhadasas students over the years and have been intrigued that all of then have emphasised special concentration, not one speaking about Buddhadasa's "natural method". E: One of my teachers Ajahn Varasak (a student of Buddhadasa) speaks about this all the time. He goes so far in the past in saying that you do not need to formally meditate. (I have gotten him to ease off of this postion as of late). PEACE E 34767 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:51am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/23/04 7:11:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > have met with a few of Buddhadasas students over the years and > have been intrigued that all of then have emphasised special > concentration, not one speaking about Buddhadasa's "natural method". > RobertK > ====== > Robert and Eric, > > The most prominant meditation teacher in the US who is a student of > Buddhadasa, Santikaro Bhikkhu, calls it "just enough concentration." He teaches one to > follow the Anapanasati Sutta and the required concentration happens without > additional effort. > > Hi, Eric. Welcome to the list. > > Jack What Jack says is true about Santikaro. You see Buddhadasa was very pragmatic. He taught Anapanasati so it would be of benefit to beginners and to advanced (those capable of jhana and/or insight). Santikaro told me a story of how Buddhadasa would emphasize the nimitta forming in the mind (it was easy for him to produce) but Santikaro told him many people could not acheive this. Buddhadasa then quit emphasizing it so much at Suan Mokh to all the people that came for retreats. Thanks for the welcome Jack! PEACE E 34768 From: ericlonline Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:54am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/23/04 7:11:13 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > A deeply concentrated > mind cannot practice introspection at all. It is in a state of > unawareness and is of no use for insight. DEEP CONCENTRATION IS A > MAJOR OBSTACLE TO INSIGHT PRACTICE.""" endquote > ====== It is only an obstacle if concentration overpowers sati and discernment. Some people get 'addicted' to the calm. Can you blame them? It is quite a respite from our 'normal' state of mind. PEACE E 34769 From: Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:11am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Jack - In a message dated 7/23/04 2:10:14 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: > Howard, > > I was referring to your daily practice referred to above. Are you going to > go > thru the Anap. Sutta steps? Or, do you mean anapanasati practice as general > mindfulness of breathing? > > jack > ========================= Well, as you might surmise, I am rereading Buddhadasa Bhikkhu's book on anapanasati. But, at least at this point, I'm not approaching my meditation in very much of a formal, follow-the-steps manner. I'm just attempting to avoid distraction as much as possible (or at least to come back from it quickly), but without expectations, permitting the development of calm and concentration and other useful factors to proceed as conditions allow. When a good degree of calm and pleasant sensation arises, I tend to shift my attention to that, for doing so is recommended in the movement towards absorption, and it is natural as well. What I'm (re)discovering is the importance of patience and not anticipating developments. With these relinquishings, calm and then concentration do increase on their own. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34770 From: Herman Hofman Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 3:47pm Subject: Questions re kamma/kusala Hi everyone, My questions are with reference to the following excerpt from A.i.263: "Monks! There are three root causes of kamma. What are the three? They are greed ... hatred ... delusion ... "Whatever kamma is performed out of greed ... hatred ... delusion, is born from greed ... hatred ... delusion, has greed ... hatred ... delusion as its root and as its cause, that kamma is unskillful, that kamma is harmful, that kamma has suffering as a result, that kamma brings about the creation of more kamma, not the cessation of kamma. "Monks! There are these three root causes of kamma. What are the three? They are non-greed ... non-hatred ... non-delusion ... "Whatever kamma is performed out of non-greed ... non-hatred ... non-delusion, is born of non-greed ... non-hatred ... non-delusion, has non-greed ... non-hatred ... non-delusion as its root and its cause, that kamma is skillful, that kamma is not harmful, that kamma has happiness as a result, that kamma brings about the cessation of kamma, not the creation of more kamma ..." ================================= What is the name(s) of the sutta this is taken from? What are the original Pali words translated here as delusion, harmful and happiness? Is it accurate to say, based on this sutta, that a sine qua non of kusala kamma is that it brings about the cessation of kamma ie all four criteria must be met before an act is classified as kusala? (if one was classifying, that is :-)) Thanks in advance Herman 34771 From: suicidal_one2004 Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 1:39pm Subject: Four foundations of mindfulness- simultaneously? Hi, I've been reading "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness" by Ven. U Silananda and Thanissaro Bhikku's "Wings to Awakening." Surely we all know the Buddha says whoever is practising these four foundations of mindfulness [*each of body, feelings, mind, and dhammas in and of themselves*] for [7 years down to 7 days] can expect gnosis here & now or if there is still some trace of affliction, non-return. My question is, must these all be practised concurrently, or do we merely shift attention to whatever comes to the fore? A passage to consider: from Thanissaro Bhikku's "Wings to Awakening": ========================================== The four objects that act as frames of reference fall into two classes. The first class--the body, feelings, and the mind--act as the "given" objects of meditation practise: what experience presents, on its own, as an object for meditation. The meditator takes any one of these objects as a frame of reference, relating all of experience to his/her chosen frame. For example, although one will experience feelings and mind states in the course of taking the body as a frame of reference, one tries to relate them to the experience of the body as their primary frame. _A feeling is viewed as it affects the body, or the body affects it._ The same holds for a mind state. An analogy for this practise is holding an object in one's hand. When other objects come into contact with the hand, one is aware that they are making contact, but one does not let go of the object in one's hand in order to grasp after them." ========================================== This seems to imply that feelings should be taken as a secondary consideration, as it relates to the body. How one would do this, I don't know, but it doesn't seem right to me. Certainly we need to practise ardently on feelings in and of themselves, to observe origination & dissolution factors, relinquishment, and impermanence that is their very nature, right? Or is it meant to say that we should develop each frame of reference one at a time, focusing on the other events as secondary or background phenomenon, or relating them to the primary frame of reference, until each foundation of mindfulness is established so they can be practised concurrently? Furthermore, Ven. Pannyavaro, in his e-book entitled "The Art of Attention" available on http://www.buddhanet.net, refers to the foundations of mindfulness as the "four spheres of attention," extracting pieces of the satipatthana sutta saying we should note the posture of the body and the four elements of it, along with the movement of the abdomen, without any ardency, concentration, or strict adherence to the letter of the sutta. Similarly with feelings and mental phenomenon, just to note whichever comes to the fore of one's attention -- thus he calles them the "four spheres of attention." The image I have here is of one sitting practising mindfulness of breathing, of posture, of the four elements, of feelings, physical and mental, of mind, and eventually of dhammas, staying in the domain of the four foundations of mindfulness whereever he physically goes. This is how the Buddha meant satipatthana to be practised with regard to the time periods referenced in the assurance of attainment section, right? 34772 From: christine_forsyth Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:07pm Subject: Precepts - Veganism Dear Group, Just wondering. The Precepts apply to the way buddhists act towards all beings. For instance, if we intentionally kill a cow or an insect - it is just as much killing as killing a human - though there are some differing opinions as to whether the vipaka is identical. I know, and have used, the explanation that buying meat from a butcher means one is not guilty of breaking the Precept against killing because I did not personally do or request the killing, and they were not specifically killed for 'me'. Increasingly I am feeling that the modern intensive farming methods would be regarded unfavourably by the Buddha. I know, and have used, the explanations that he and his bhikkhus had to live off the alms of the people and therefore were to accept what was given and have no preferences. The occasional butchering of an animal at the time of the Buddha can in no way rival the efficiency of the method and sheer multitudes of beings being bred and 'processed' within the commercial food markets today. And what of the Precept against stealing? Particularly with regard to milk, eggs and honey. The cows, chickens and the bees do not 'give' the fluids of their bodies - so couldn't the consumption of milk, icecream, cheese, yoghurt, honey and eggs be regarded as stealing. Most of them are kept in stressful (suffering) conditions, which continues for years until they are no longer useful and are 'disposed of'. Killing is one quick moment - could it be that this living off the body products of unwilling and powerless animals is worse than that? Wouldn't this make a Vegan way of life the way to go? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34773 From: rjkjp1 Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:50pm Subject: Re: Buddhadasa, Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > Hey Robert, > > --- > Eric: IMHO insight will not arise without samatha. I dont > > think 'insight' can be cultivated but concentration sure can be. > +++++++++++++ > > Buddhadasa: > """INSlGHT, BY THE NATURE METHOD > the intensity of > concentration that comes about naturally is usually sufficient and > appropriate for introspection and insight, whereas the concentration > resulting from organized training is usually excessive, more than > can be made use of. Furthermore, misguided satisfaction with that > highly developed concentration may result. Naturally occurring > concentration, which is sufficient and suitable for use in > introspection, is harmless, having none of the disadvantages > inherent in concentration developed by means of intensive training. > > So don't overlook this naturally occurring concentration. It is > something most of us either already have, or can readily develop. DEEP CONCENTRATION IS A > MAJOR OBSTACLE TO INSIGHT PRACTICE.""" endquote > ===========-- Dear Eric, Eric: One of my teachers Ajahn Varasak (a student of Buddhadasa) speaks > about this all the time. He goes so far in the past in saying that > you do not need to formally meditate. (I have gotten him to ease off > of this postion as of late). ========= Kind of shocking, still he must have had doubts as you changed his views. How do you think he came to such ideas, did he know Buddhadasa well? Then again Buddhadasa seems be saying the same thing (that formal meditation is not needed)- why do you think he would say so? Robertk 34774 From: Andrew Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 11:16pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: [snip] I do *not* think he [Bhikkhu Thanissaro] asserts that there is a self - in fact he urges > one not to so assert. I see his "position" as being the "nonposition" which > cautions against holding views of how things are, as opposed to directly "seeing" > reality. In this regard, he seems to say that conceptual positions, whether > pro-self or anti-self, all miss the mark in carrying with them substantialist or > nihilist (or both) presumptions that have no relation to the way things > really are, but necessarily mischaracterize reality. In particular, he warns > against thinking and speaking in terms of "I have (or do not) have a self," which, > of course, by turns, a) begs the question, and b) is self- contradictory. I see > his position as the pragmatic one that holding a view on self, and being upset > at the idea of not holding one, is a clinging to view, a clinging to concepts > afflicted by reification or nihilism, which is a sabotaging substitute for > direct realization of reality. I believe his point is that the Buddha did not > attempt to inculcate views, but rather to provide the means to free oneself of > views (and, of course, of everything else), replacing views by direct knowing. > The venerable does not claim there is no reality to know, but only that the > knowing must not be a matter of view, but of wisdom. Hi Howard From past discussions, I am aware of your view on anatta and basically agree with it. However, I just want to clarify some things about what you term the "nonposition" manifest on Access to Insight website. Are you suggesting that the nonposition view tells us to skip over views and go straight to direct knowing? If so, do we skip over Right View (samma-ditthi) as well? Is it possible to cling to Right View? A concept of Right View? If I believe "this body is not-self", do I lose points for "holding a view"? Doesn't the nonposition attempt to add anatta to the list of acinteyya (unthinkables)? Why didn't the Buddha himself put it on that list? In the Samyutta Nikaya V, when the 500 merchants asked the Buddha how they should live their lives, he said: "... as to those discourses uttered by the Tathagata, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental, and concerned with the void [about anatta] from time to time we will spend our days learning them." I can't see how this advice fits with the nonposition. Can you? If the nonposition is correct, wouldn't the Buddha have advised the merchants *not* to think about anatta, *not* to develop views but perhaps instead go straight to direct knowing of the void? Is that possible? These are rhetorical questions about a position/nonposition you yourself don't actually adhere to so don't feel any obligation to answer any of them. (-: Best wishes Andrew 34775 From: suicidal_one2004 Date: Fri Jul 23, 2004 9:05pm Subject: Introduction Hello, My name is Andrew. I have been studying and practising Theravada Buddhism on and off for about one year now. I sometimes establish myself in some of the four foundations of mindfulness, and have had success, insight, and purification with this path. I wish to pursue vipassana meditation culminating in stream-entry in this lifetime, and I am interested in the jhanas. I have the desire to live an upright moral life but I sometimes have difficulty keeping the precepts and get off course. I'm not in the best of health, but I'm learning, and I have good friends, so I think I have a good shot at this. Learned about DSG from a post on E-Sangha, the Internet Buddhist Web Forum at http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php with some links to Bhikku Bodhi's articles about the jhanas not being necessary for stream-entry. Hope to discuss dharma fruitfully with all of you. :-) 34776 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 0:58am Subject: Re: Introduction Hello Andrew, Welcome to the List! Thanks for your introduction and supplying us with a name - I felt a little hesitant to reply just to your email tag. :-) You will find a lot of friends on this list whose understanding can differ on subjects like formal meditation. But we all get on happily and respectfully. You may like to check out the Useful Posts (where the Moderators have saved posts in an alphabetical order under topics of interest). Some of us use Pali terms occasionally (and some more than occasionally!) - there is a glossary in the files section as well. http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/files/ And I wonder if you are the Andrew who has already discovered the photo album :-) - if so, many thanks, nice to see you. There are quite a few long time members here, whom we are still trying to encourage to take the plunge. Just shy, I suppose. :-) I'm from Australia and there are a few other Aussies here as well - there are many active members from all over the world. http://photos.groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/lst You sound like you have an active interest and growing knowledge of the Teachings - and I'm sure I don't need to tell you that there is no such thing as a silly question. Any question helps us all reflect and learn. Most of us have trouble with the Precepts at times - they are Training Rules and you can't be expected to be perfect for quite a while. :-) As to attaining Stream Entry in this lifetime - it will all depend on conditions ... Look forward to further dhamma discussion. :-) metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "suicidal_one2004" wrote: > Hello, > > My name is Andrew. > > I have been studying and practising Theravada Buddhism on and off for > about one year now. I sometimes establish myself in some of the four > foundations of mindfulness, and have had success, insight, and > purification with this path. I wish to pursue vipassana meditation > culminating in stream-entry in this lifetime, and I am interested in > the jhanas. > > I have the desire to live an upright moral life but I sometimes have > difficulty keeping the precepts and get off course. I'm not in the > best of health, but I'm learning, and I have good friends, so I think > I have a good shot at this. > > Learned about DSG from a post on E-Sangha, the Internet Buddhist Web > Forum at http://www.lioncity.net/buddhism/index.php with some links to > Bhikku Bodhi's articles about the jhanas not being necessary for > stream-entry. > > Hope to discuss dharma fruitfully with all of you. :-) 34777 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:39am Subject: [dsg] Re: Monk, bail out this boat... Friend Sarah, Sarah: I'm glad you had a good trip to Alexandria and Sharm El Sheikh… James: Thank you and I am glad that you had a nice trip to Switzerland. Did you learn how to yodel? Hehehehe…;-)) Sarah: As we've discussed, I think that many aspects of the teachings are spelled out more precisely in the Abhidhamma and commentaries. If one prefers to leave these aside, there has to be more reading between the sutta lines and this may be right or wrong. James: There is always going to be reading between the lines, even of the Abhidhamma and the commentaries. What this group mainly does is hash out the differences in what different people read between the lines, of the entire Tipitaka. Of course there comes a time when so much thought needs to be put aside and the real practice must begin (satipatthana and jhana). Sarah: I can appreciate intellectually that with more and more understanding and confidence in conditions and especially in kamma and vipaka, that there are fewer causes for jealousy to arise. By the time all doubts have been eradicated and there is complete confidence in the Triple Gem (at stage of sotapanna), there are no more conditions for jealousy to arise and one isn't susceptible to the worldly conditions in the same way as now as all wrong view of self, people and `situations' has been eradicated. Namas and rupas are fully understood. James: I think that you are extremely over-stating the qualifications for a sotapanna. Here is how I see it: You are a sotapanna if: 1) You believe that the Buddha was the supreme spiritual teacher, that there was (or is) no one higher; and that what he taught is the supreme spiritual teaching. 2) You don't believe that rites or rituals have any magic influence to purify oneself; that the only path to purification is a gradual one consisting of ethics, behavior, and mental development. 3) You know that there isn't a permanent self in the process of `you' and that after `you' die `you' will be reborn into another form based on your last clinging consciousness; and that `you' will not go to a heaven or a hell for all eternity. Sarah, could you imagine that in your next life you might be a Christian or a Pagan or some other religious follower and completely abandon the Buddha's teachings? Personally, I don't think so. I think that you are a sotapanna. I also think that I am a sotapanna and so is Howard, Christine, Jon, and many others in this group who actively post. But, Sarah, do you ever get jealous? If Jon started flirting with a pretty girl would you get jealous? Do members in this group get jealous of each other? Don't some active members get jealous if you mention me too much in posts or give me too much attention? I think the answer to these questions is yes so I don't believe that jealousy is eradicated in the sotapanna. I think we have a lot of jealous sotapannas around here! LOL! Sarah: More and more complicated than we ever realized - I'm confident in time that you'll really appreciate the precision of the Abhidhamma. James: The only way that I might appreciate the precision of the Abhidhamma is if I could read it for myself, in English and well- translated. Metta, James 34778 From: buddhatrue Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:47am Subject: Re: Egypt Post: Suffering Friend Azita, Azita: Your story has made me laugh, but I hope your friend is OK now. Food poisoning is soooooo unpleasant. James: I'm glad that you enjoyed the story. I told my friend that I wrote a post, story, about his stay and he was very surprised. He can't wait to hear it when he gets back. BTW, he finally took some medicine and he is better now…but still bored. ;-)) Azita: Thank you for sharing this story; a condition for me to think about the things I do to 'escape' boredom. James: I'm glad. That is what I hoped it would do. Metta, James 34779 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 1:55am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi again, Eric --- ericlonline wrote: > Hey Jon, ... > E: Dont sell yourself short Jon. No one knows what the next moment > may bring! Your optimism is refreshing! I agree that the next moment can't be predicted (dhammas are anatta, after all); on the other hand, however, we know that everything happens in due order, development is only ever gradual. We should be realistic about where we are at present, don't you think? ... > E: Yes, I have read it before. The old 500 years and that is it for > the Dhamma. Just did not think many people believed it. It seems to > undermine ones practice. Almost a resignation that you have to wait > your turn for the next turning of the wheel. Why shoot yourself in > the foot? "He who sees Dependent Origination sees the Dhamma and he > who sees the Dhamma sees the Buddha." To my understanding, the main distinguishing feature of a Buddha or Bodhisatta is that they are self-enlightened, and this means that they attain enlightenment at a time when the teachings are not extant. ... > E: I dont think so Jon. There is a big difference between the > foundation or frame of reference one is looking thru and the > insights that 'may' arise. If they were the same, then everyone > would 'realise' the same insight once the frame was set up and that > surely is not the case now is it? As I understand, it is the development of satipatthana itself that leads eventually to enlightenment, there being no separate 'intermediate' step, which is why I said that both satipatthana and vipassana are for practical purposes one and the same thing, both referring to the development of insight. See the passages copied below from the beginning and end of the Satipatthana Sutta. > E: Yes this is the commentarial view of it right? Use Anapanasati to > develope jhana between steps 4 and 5. But there is no mention of > jhana in the Sutta itself. Why? Here is what Thanissaro says about > the Anapanasati Sutta in his intro to it. "One of the most important > texts for beginning and veteran meditators alike..." What I said about the relationship between anapanasati and insight can be seen from the text of the sutta itself, so I would not describe it as (purely) the commentarial view. The key introductory passages of the sutta make it clear who the teaching is directed to. > May I ask you a personal question? Have you ever been instructed in > Anapanasati by a senior monk or meditator? Have you ever practised > it in earnest? I don't mind the personal question, Eric, but I really don't think it matters (and I certainly claim no expertise in the area). Surely you are more interested in what the Buddha had to say on the subject than in my personal expereince ;-)) > E: You sound like my first meditation teacher. He did not hold > Buddhadasa up to much esteem either. My comments were not meant to be any reflection on Ven Buddhadasa, whom I do not know and whose writings I have not really studied. I simply meant to indicate that my reading of the Anapanasati Sutta was quite different – I see it as being about vipassana for the dedicated and advanced anapanasati practitioner (who must also be fairly advanced in satipatthana/vipassansa). For the rest of us, there is plenty of useful, and more relevant, information about vipassana to be found in other suttas. > Although I have never met him, > I have met a handful of his students who had many rains. They are > all upstanding monks. Even those that were not his students and had > met him show nothing but a deep respect for him. I am aware that the late Ven. has a large and devoted following. > If emptiness arises in meditation then what Buddhadasa had to say in > this regards has a lot of merit! On the other hand, there is a lot to be said for reading the suttas and commentaries for oneself, since these are readily available in good translation, as I think you agree. Cheers Jon From 'The Way of Mindfulness' trans of the Satipatthana Sutta: "Thus have I heard. At one time the Blessed One was living in the Kurus, at Kammasadamma, a market-town of the Kuru people. Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus as follows: "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." ... "O bhikkhus, should any person maintain the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for seven years, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge (Arahantship) here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of Non-Returning (the Third Stage of Supramundane Fulfillment). ... "Because of this was it said: 'This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." 34780 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:05am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Post: Suffering Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, James - ... > Until (and if) we reach the point where excitement is no longer > craved, what, besides being aware of that craving, can we do to avoid > the excesses > it can lead to? I think that we must "start where we are" and engage in > a form of sublimation. ... > ... for those of us who have had some of our eye-dust removed and have > come to glimpse the truth of the Dhamma, the jhanas rank highly among > those > dhammas that are kusala but also "exciting, different, and unusual" and > worthy of acquiring if not mastering. The aim of having more kusala in our lives is of course an admirable one, but not one that is easily implemented. For example, before we can begin to think about the jhanas, we must know something about the development of samatha of lesser levels. As you say, we need to begin where we are, and jhana is a long, long way down the track, it seems to me. Beginning level samatha is what would be useful to discuss, in my view (any starters for kindergarten corner ;-))?). Jon 34781 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi, Howard --- upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi, all - > > In the Upanissa Sutta, the Buddha said "Knowledge & vision of > things > as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite." > > With metta, > Howard > > P.S. This doesn't say "sole prerequisite," and it doesn't say how *much* > concentration, though it must be enough to bother talking about(!), and, > IMO, this > statement says enough for one to realize on the basis of it not to > shortchange concentration, because a prerequisite is a *necessary* > condition - a "without which, not" condition! Thanks for these comments, Howard. Very useful to consider. I notice that a similar relationship is mentioned in the sutta quoted by Nori in his recent post (from Anguttara Nikaya XI.1, Kimattha Sutta): <<"And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?" "Concentration has knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its purpose, knowledge & vision of things as they actually are as its reward." ...>> Would you agree that 'concentration' in these cases would have to be *kusala* concentration (i.e., concentration that accompanies kusala citta of one kind or another)? How is that kusala concentration to be developed, in your view? Jon 34782 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Howard, Thanks for your response. You wrote: ------------------------ > I understand your concern, but I think it is incorrect to characterize the venerable's position (as given in detail on Access to Insight at the url: http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/notself.html ) as "There clearly is a self, and it would be ridiculous to say otherwise. However, thoughts of self (and of not-self) agitate the mind and an agitated mind is not free." > --------------------------- KH: Until recently, I would have agreed that was an incorrect characterisation. I thought Thanissaro Buikkhu's (TB's) choice of words was often unfortunate, but I always assumed the meaning behind his words was consistent with the Dhamma. But now I am convinced the reverse is true. A closer look at ATI indicates overwhelmingly the venerable does believe in a self but considers it is wrong to discuss that belief. The article you have cited begins: ------------- "One of the first stumbling blocks that Westerners often encounter when they learn about Buddhism is the teaching on anatta, often translated as no-self. This teaching is a stumbling block for two reasons. First, the idea of there being no self doesn't fit well with other Buddhist teachings, such as the doctrine of kamma and rebirth: If there's no self, what experiences the results of kamma and takes rebirth? Second, it > -------------- KH: Do you see what I mean? I think you would agree with me that the words "doesn't fit well with other Buddhist teachings" were, at best, badly chosen. We would hope TB would go on to explain that anatta DOES fit well with "kamma and rebirth" and with all the other Buddhist teachings. But he doesn't. And the reason he doesn't is he believes there is a self that acts and receives the results of actions and there is a self that dies and is reborn. Occasionally, we see DSG contributors making those exact points when arguing that anatta should not be taken literally. Until now, I had assumed they were misunderstanding something they had read, but it seems they had read and understood TB exactly the way he intended. To continue quoting the article: ---------------- TB: "Second, it doesn't fit well with our own Judeo-Christian background, which assumes the existence of an eternal soul or self as a basic presupposition: If there's no self, what's the purpose of a spiritual life? Many books try to answer these questions, but if you look at the Pali Canon -- the earliest extant record of the Buddha's teachings -- you won't find them addressed at all. (KH: I would have thought the whole of the Pali Canon addresses the question, `How there can be existence (paramattha dhamma) without self,' but that's just my opinion.) TB: "In fact, the one place where the Buddha was asked point-blank whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. ----------------- TB has a point, of course: In the suttas, the Buddha tends not to address the question point-blank. But what is the true significance of that? ----------------- TB: "When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible. ----------------- KH: Is that strictly correct? In that particular instance, didn't the Buddha explain that the questioner was not capable of hearing the answer without falling into despair? (Sorry for my usual inability to give references.) I think the point is; anatta is a characteristic of dhammas and, therefore, it is accurate to say, "dhammas are not self" in preference to, "there is no self." ----------------- TB: "Thus the question should be put aside. ----------------- Does that ring a bell with you? I seem to remember how you, like many of us here, have been driven almost to distraction trying to convince one of our members that, spoken or unspoken, there is no room for the conclusion, "there is a self." The reasoning we use is; if there are only dhammas and all dhammas are not self, then it undeniably follows that there is no self. But those words fall on deaf ears. And the reason for that can be traced back to ATI and the writings of Venerable Thanissaro. -------------- TB: "To understand what his silence on this question says about the meaning of anatta, we first have to look at his teachings on how questions should be asked and answered, and how to interpret his answers. --------------- KH: TB goes on to explain questions, answers and interpretations in a way that (IMHO) is unique to his view of the Dhamma. As I was saying in my previous post, he sees the question of self/not-self as a cause of stress or agitation. He thinks the Buddhist method is to avoid the question thereby `freeing the mind from agitation' (his definition of enlightenment, I think). In the introduction to his translation of the Alagaddupama Sutta, TB says: ---------- "Thus it is important to focus on how the Dhamma is taught: Even in his most thoroughgoing teachings about not-self, the Buddha never recommends replacing the assumption that there is a self with the assumption that there is no self. Instead, he only goes so far as to point out the drawbacks of various ways of conceiving the self and then to recommend dropping them. For example, in his standard series of questions building on the logic of the inconstancy and stress of the aggregates, he does not say that because the aggregates are inconstant and stressful there is no self. He simply asks, When they are inconstant and stressful, is it proper to assume that they are "me, my self, what I am"? (KH: Does this sound familiar to you, Howard? Do you see how TB has misled certain people?) "Now, because the sense of self is a product of "I-making," this question seeks to do nothing more than to induce disenchantment and dispassion for that process of I- making, so as to put a stop to it. Once that is accomplished, the teaching has fulfilled its purpose in putting an end to suffering and stress. That's the safety of the further shore. As the Buddha says in this discourse, "Both formerly and now, monks, I declare only stress and the cessation of stress." As he also says here, when views of self are finally dropped, one is free from agitation; and as MN 140 points out, when one is truly unagitated one is unbound. The raft has reached the shore, and one can leave it there -- free to go where one likes, in a way that cannot be traced." -------------- KH: Does this leave any doubt in the reader's mind? TB sees anatta as a `raft' in the sense of an `expediency' (a temporary shutting- out of the truth). As for his description of parinibbana, you might say "free to go where one likes, in a way that cannot be traced" is just an unfortunate choice of words. But no, TB repeatedly describes Nibbana in that eternalist way. For example, when discussing how an arahant after parinibbana, is said to be like a `flame gone out' (Aggi- Vacchagotta Sutta) TB tells us how the audience to that sutta would have understood the simile: TB: "Now, although the Vedic texts contain several different theories concerning the physics of fire, there is at least one basic point on which they agree: Fire, even when not manifest, continues to exist in a latent form." Another eternalist definition is found in the article you have quoted above, where TB concludes: "In this sense, the anatta teaching is not a doctrine of no-self, but a not-self strategy for shedding suffering by letting go of its cause, leading to the highest, undying happiness. At that point, questions of self, no-self, and not-self fall aside. Once there's the experience of such total freedom, where would there be any concern about what's experiencing it, or whether or not it's a self?" (end quote) This post has gone too long, but I'd like to address more of your points later. In the meantime, if you or any other members are not convinced of ATI's eternalist leanings, please say so, I think it is a very important matter to settle. Kind regards, Ken H 34783 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:34am Subject: RE: [dsg] Four foundations of mindfulness- simultaneously? Hi and welcome, Andrew!! >This is how the Buddha meant satipatthana to be practised with regard >to the time periods referenced in the assurance of attainment section, >right? You may find the following useful. Anguttara Nikaya VIII.63 Sankhitta Sutta In Brief (Good Will, Mindfulness, & Concentration) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. Translator's note: This discourse is important in that it explicitly refers to the practice of the four frames of reference (the four foundations of mindfulness) as a form of concentration practice, mastered in terms of the levels of jhana. Herman 34784 From: Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:15am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhadasa, Anapanasati Sutta In a message dated 7/23/04 9:59:15 PM Pacific Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: How do you think he came to such ideas, did he know Buddhadasa well? Then again Buddhadasa seems be saying the same thing (that formal meditation is not needed)- why do you think he would say so? Robertk === Robert, Where does Buddhadasa say that formal meditation is not needed? Jack 34785 From: Bhikkhu Samahita Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:13am Subject: Luminous is Mind ! Friends: Momentary, Directed, Pointed & Clear The Buddha said I, Bhikkhus, do not know even one other single thing so quickly changing as the mind, insofar as finding just one other phenomena changing equally fast, is not easy. Shining bright, Bhikkhus, is this mind, yet it is indeed obstructed by external defilements. Luminous indeed, Bhikkhus, is that mind, when it is safely released & freed from alien these pollutions. Full Text: http://uk.geocities.com/bhikkhu_samahita/Canon/Sutta/AN/AN.I.8-10.htm All yours in the Dhamma. Bhikkhu Samahita, Sri Lanka. http://groups.msn.com/DirectDhamma/ http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Buddha-Direct/ http://www.smartgroups.com/groups/TrueDhamma 34786 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:03am Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhadasa, Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > > Then again Buddhadasa seems be saying the same thing (that formal > meditation is not needed)- why do you think he would say so? > Robertk > === > Robert, > > Where does Buddhadasa say that formal meditation is not needed? > > Jack Dear Jack, That was my interpretation of the chapter I cited from his book - did I read it wrong? Robert 34787 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:25am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Need clarification on a few subjects Hi, Victor Sorry for the delay in replying. I'm still catching up on posts that came in while I was away. --- yu_zhonghao wrote: > Hi Jon and all, > > One probably won't find in the discourses in which the Buddha > specifically said to use the method of trial and error in practice. > > However, the fact is that in the course of one's practice, he or she > faces different problems/difficulties. There are different methods > to find a solution/solve a problem, and trial and error is one of > them: > > > Humans use not only trial and error but also insight based on an > understanding of principles, inductive and deductive reasoning (see > deduction; induction; and logic), and divergent or creative thinking > (see creativity). Problem-solving abilities and styles may vary > considerably by individual. > > http://www.britannica.com/ebc/article?eu=401247&query=problem% > 20solving&ct= > > For example, one might try different ways to overcome drowsiness > before he or she finds a way that works. > > But let's go back to the original point from which this discussion > on trial and error started: > > "it takes practice and exploration to develop experiential > understanding regarding sati, sampajañña and atappa." Well if, based on your comments above, you were simply making an observation about human nature, that's one thing; but if you were describing the practice as found in or suggested by the texts, then I would definitely disagree ;-)). Jon 34788 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 8:39am Subject: Re: Buddhadasa, Anapanasati Sutta Hey Robert, > > > > --- > Eric: IMHO insight will not arise without samatha. I dont > > > think 'insight' can be cultivated but concentration sure can be. > > +++++++++++++ > > > Buddhadasa: > > """INSlGHT, BY THE NATURE METHOD > > the intensity of > > concentration that comes about naturally is usually sufficient and > > appropriate for introspection and insight, whereas the > concentration > > resulting from organized training is usually excessive, more than > > can be made use of. Furthermore, misguided satisfaction with that > > highly developed concentration may result. Naturally occurring > > concentration, which is sufficient and suitable for use in > > introspection, is harmless, having none of the disadvantages > > inherent in concentration developed by means of intensive training. > > > > So don't overlook this naturally occurring concentration. It is > > something most of us either already have, or can readily develop. > DEEP CONCENTRATION IS A > > MAJOR OBSTACLE TO INSIGHT PRACTICE.""" endquote > > ===========-- > Dear Eric, > Eric: One of my teachers Ajahn Varasak (a student of Buddhadasa) speaks about this all the time. He goes so far in the past in saying that you do not need to formally meditate. (I have gotten him to ease off of this postion as of late). > ========= R > Kind of shocking, still he must have had doubts as you changed his views. E: :-) He is not a man of doubts. He just feels that people are not really meditating but temporarily escaping their lives. He feels sati in each moment of ones life is of more value. I have said repeatedly to him that the mind must have some strength in order to accomplish this. That 'strength' being developed via formal sitting. So, he has come around albeit slowly. He does teach Anapanasati on occasion btw. R: How do you think he came to such ideas, did he know Buddhadasa well? E:Yes, he was at Suan Mokh for 20 or so years. He said he listened to all of his talks while there. > Then again Buddhadasa seems be saying the same thing (that formal > meditation is not needed)- why do you think he would say so? > Robertk E: This same topic just came up on Santikaro's Buddhadasa yahoo group. I lifted it from there and posted it below. Funny how this happens! Santikaro's response starts with ###. PEACE E ----- Another response to an email ... I read "Handbook of Mankind" by Than Buddhadasa and it struck me that he did not emphasize "Sati" or mindfulness as much as other monks. Instead, he placed more importance on "Panya" or wisdom. Please kindly explain why he did not take "Sati" as an important element or essence of mankind. ### I don't think you want to jump to that conclusion. It helps to know the context of the talks from which Handbook for Mankind was made. He was speaking to a bunch of judges in training who were unlikely to meditate much. In the series, there was some attempt to interest the judges-to-be in formal meditation practice, but more of an effort to get them to understand Buddhist principles so that they would be more inclined to ethical behavior in their work & Dhamma understanding in their lives. Perhaps this could lead to interest in introspection, mindfulness, and meditation. Btw, most Buddhists -- including monks & nuns -- in Asia don't meditate much. It can't be assumed as a common interest. Tan Ajarn frequently used the Thai compound term "sati- panya" formed of the Pali terms "sati" and "panya." In modern Thai it means something like "intelligence," but Tan Ajarn's usage also includes sati (mindfulness). If you look thru the Thai original of Handbook for Mankind, I think you'll find this term used often, as well as panya. Throughout his teaching, including the last decade of his life (with which I am most familiar), he treated sati and panya as interdependent. One can acquire the level of knowledge known as sutamayapanya from listening to talks & reading, but the level required for ending dukkha requires well trained sati and samadhi. Still, for those unable to do that training, sutamayapanya is invaluable. In fact, we all do well to acquire it. 34789 From: Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi, Andrew (and Ken, and Victor) - In a message dated 7/24/04 2:16:26 AM Eastern Daylight Time, athel60@t... writes: > Hi Howard > > From past discussions, I am aware of your view on anatta and > basically agree with it. However, I just want to clarify some things > about what you term the "nonposition" manifest on Access to Insight > website. > Are you suggesting that the nonposition view tells us to skip over > views and go straight to direct knowing? > ------------------------------------------- Howard: I'm not defending Ven T's "strategy" as a good one, but defending it only in the sense of explaining what I think it is and what it is not. Yes, I think he is so wary of being caught in any view (conceptual framework/proposition) as a substitute for wisdom, that he even includes "right view" as something to be careful of. I would *suspect* that the venerable does not believe there is any self or core to be found in anything, but, like Victor, wants to avoid statements and thoughts of the form "There is no self" as being a conceptual proposition that is clung to despite the impossibility of (direct) proof, where 'proof' means incontrovertable proof as opposed to evidence. I do think that Ven T (and Victor as well) accept the pragmatic cautioning that nothing whatsoever should be grasped at as "me or mine", and I do suspect that the venerable does not believe that there is any lasting, self-existent, substantial core to be found in any phenomena anywhere, but that it is a pragmatic mistake to harden that lack of belief into the belief "There is no self". -------------------------------------------------- > If so, do we skip over Right View (samma-ditthi) as well? Is it > possible to cling to Right View? A concept of Right View? If I > believe "this body is not-self", do I lose points for "holding a > view"? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I do not share the venerable's nonposition position. I *do* think that right view as a proposition to be accepted, when held lightly, is essential at the start. I also think that as one progresses, as wisdom develops, the initial "right view" which is taken as a "belief axiom" is steadily replaced by knowledge. However, I see elements of merit in Ven T's position, because any belief, even one which actually happens to accord with the facts, can be clung to, and since a belief is not an adequate substitute for knowledge, that clinging can be a brake on progress. Relinquishment, even of (propositional) right view, is key. ------------------------------------------------ > Doesn't the nonposition attempt to add anatta to the list of > acinteyya (unthinkables)? Why didn't the Buddha himself put it on > that list? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I think there is good evidence that the Buddha warned against *clinging* to any views, but especially to wrong views. However, he also explained, conceptually, those leaves that he held in his hand, and he did so to provide a knowledge base "for those with but little dust in their eyes." ------------------------------------------------- > In the Samyutta Nikaya V, when the 500 merchants asked the Buddha how > they should live their lives, he said: "... as to those discourses > uttered by the Tathagata, deep, deep in meaning, transcendental, and > concerned with the void [about anatta] from time to time we will > spend our days learning them." > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: They should indeed be learned, but not clung to for dear life. Even the key position of not-self is very cautiously put forward by the Buddha, because a worldling who has not had glimpses of the way matters really are will grasp such a proposition wrongly, distortedly, as it is filtered through his/her dark glass of ignorance. ------------------------------------------------ > I can't see how this advice fits with the nonposition. Can you? If > the nonposition is correct, wouldn't the Buddha have advised the > merchants *not* to think about anatta, *not* to develop views but > perhaps instead go straight to direct knowing of the void? > Is that possible? > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I think the nonposition position goes too far. ----------------------------------------------- > These are rhetorical questions about a position/nonposition you > yourself don't actually adhere to so don't feel any obligation to > answer any of them. (-: > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: I understand. And, yes, you are right, I don't adhere to the venerable's position. However, I think it is not the substantialist poition that Ken has understood it to be. ------------------------------------------------- > > Best wishes > Andrew > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34790 From: Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:59am Subject: Re: [dsg] Egypt Post: Suffering Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/24/04 5:26:51 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, James - > ... > > Until (and if) we reach the point where excitement is no longer > >craved, what, besides being aware of that craving, can we do to avoid > >the excesses > >it can lead to? I think that we must "start where we are" and engage in > >a form of sublimation. ... > >... for those of us who have had some of our eye-dust removed and have > >come to glimpse the truth of the Dhamma, the jhanas rank highly among > >those > >dhammas that are kusala but also "exciting, different, and unusual" and > >worthy of acquiring if not mastering. > > The aim of having more kusala in our lives is of course an admirable one, > but not one that is easily implemented. For example, before we can begin > to think about the jhanas, we must know something about the development of > samatha of lesser levels. As you say, we need to begin where we are, and > jhana is a long, long way down the track, it seems to me. > > Beginning level samatha is what would be useful to discuss, in my view > (any starters for kindergarten corner ;-))?). > > Jon > > ============================ Certainly not easy - far from it. But the journey of a thousand miles ... .The practice will be pretty much just what it is. The fruits of the practice will be just what they are. We cannot just say, with any hope of success, "Let there be jhana!" ;-)) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34791 From: Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 5:07am Subject: Re: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/24/04 7:37:44 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > > Hi, Howard > > --- upasaka@a... wrote: >Hi, all - > > > > In the Upanissa Sutta, the Buddha said "Knowledge &vision of > >things > >as they actually are present has concentration as its prerequisite." > > > >With metta, > >Howard > > > >P.S. This doesn't say "sole prerequisite," and it doesn't say how *much* > >concentration, though it must be enough to bother talking about(!), and, > >IMO, this > >statement says enough for one to realize on the basis of it not to > >shortchange concentration, because a prerequisite is a *necessary* > >condition - a "without which, not" condition! > > Thanks for these comments, Howard. Very useful to consider. > > I notice that a similar relationship is mentioned in the sutta quoted by > Nori in his recent post (from Anguttara Nikaya XI.1, Kimattha Sutta): > > <<"And what is the purpose of concentration? What is its reward?" > "Concentration has knowledge &vision of things as they actually are > as its purpose, knowledge &vision of things as they actually are as > its reward." ...>> > > Would you agree that 'concentration' in these cases would have to be > *kusala* concentration (i.e., concentration that accompanies kusala citta > of one kind or another)? > ------------------------------------------------- Howard: Yes. ------------------------------------------------ How is that kusala concentration to be> > developed, in your view? ----------------------------------------------- Howard: By several means: Study and contemplation of the Dhamma and development of a base of sila, to produce a calm and well directed mind, regular samatha meditation (on appropriate objects), because calm supports concentration, and cultivation of the habit of clearly attending to whatever arises as much as possible. --------------------------------------------- > > Jon ======================= With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34792 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 9:23am Subject: Re: Four foundations of mindfulness- simultaneously? Hey SO, I've been reading "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness" by Ven. U Silananda and Thanissaro Bhikku's "Wings to Awakening." Surely we all know the Buddha says whoever is practising these four foundations of mindfulness [*each of body, feelings, mind, and dhammas in and of themselves*] for [7 years down to 7 days] can expect gnosis here & now or if there is still some trace of affliction, non-return. My question is, must these all be practised concurrently, or do we merely shift attention to whatever comes to the fore? E: It seems in the beginning, the mind is not capable to keep up with impermanence. So the systematic consideration via the frames is recommended. One of the ideas is to 'realize' (experientially know) what conditions what. By relating and investigating experience to one frame of reference, this knowledge begins to dawn. It is a key component of skillful means. Also, as you begin to see 'things' arise and pass away you begin to not see them as 'things' but as processes that 'you' have little control over. Instead of you and things, the mind begins to see a phenomenology underlying this 'static' view of 'things'. The 'things' and 'you' arise out of this phenomenology due to grasping at the phenomenology. So, what do you grasp at and why? By systematicaly investigating via the 4 frames of reference, you begin to see the make-up of your own 'personal' experience. Patterns begin to emerge i.e. what hindrances specific to you arise and based on what cause. First you need to see the first Truth clearly and then you will be in a better position to do something about it or not. It seems you have some good reference points, now test them! Only you will be able to discern whether they are true or not. My only suggestion is to not hold the conclusions too tightly as they are going to change. PEACE E 34793 From: Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 5:31am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi, Ken (and Victor) - In a message dated 7/24/04 7:38:06 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > > Howard, > > Thanks for your response. You wrote: > ------------------------ > >I understand your concern, but I think it is incorrect to > characterize the venerable's position (as given in detail on Access > to Insight at the url: > http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/notself.html ) > as "There clearly is a self, and it would be ridiculous to say > otherwise. However, thoughts of self (and of not-self) agitate the > mind and an agitated mind is not free." > > --------------------------- > > KH: Until recently, I would have agreed that was an incorrect > characterisation. I thought Thanissaro Buikkhu's (TB's) choice of > words was often unfortunate, but I always assumed the meaning behind > his words was consistent with the Dhamma. But now I am convinced > the reverse is true. A closer look at ATI indicates overwhelmingly > the venerable does believe in a self but considers it is wrong to > discuss that belief. The article you have cited begins: > ------------- > "One of the first stumbling blocks that Westerners often encounter > when they learn about Buddhism is the teaching on anatta, often > translated as no-self. This teaching is a stumbling block for two > reasons. First, the idea of there being no self doesn't fit well > with other Buddhist teachings, such as the doctrine of kamma and > rebirth: If there's no self, what experiences the results of kamma > and takes rebirth? Second, it > > -------------- > > KH: Do you see what I mean? I think you would agree with me that > the words "doesn't fit well with other Buddhist teachings" were, at > best, badly chosen. We would hope TB would go on to explain that > anatta DOES fit well with "kamma and rebirth" and with all the other > Buddhist teachings. But he doesn't. And the reason he doesn't is he > believes there is a self that acts and receives the results of > actions and there is a self that dies and is reborn. > ------------------------------------------------ Howard: I agree with you that what the venerable says there is (at least) badly put. I *think* that what he is doing is putting himself in the position of one who is hearing the not-self teaching, and explaing the pragmatic difficulties involved. ----------------------------------------------- > > Occasionally, we see DSG contributors making those exact points when > arguing that anatta should not be taken literally. Until now, I had > assumed they were misunderstanding something they had read, but it > seems they had read and understood TB exactly the way he intended. > > To continue quoting the article: > ---------------- > TB: "Second, it doesn't fit well with our own Judeo-Christian > background, which assumes the existence of an eternal soul or self > as a basic presupposition: If there's no self, what's the purpose of > a spiritual life? Many books try to answer these questions, but if > you look at the Pali Canon -- the earliest extant record of the > Buddha's teachings -- you won't find them addressed at all. > > (KH: I would have thought the whole of the Pali Canon addresses the > question, `How there can be existence (paramattha dhamma) without > self,' but that's just my opinion.) > > TB: "In fact, the one place where the Buddha was asked point-blank > whether or not there was a self, he refused to answer. > ----------------- > > TB has a point, of course: In the suttas, the Buddha tends not to > address the question point-blank. But what is the true significance > of that? > > ----------------- > TB: "When later asked why, he said that to hold either that there is > a self or that there is no self is to fall into extreme forms of > wrong view that make the path of Buddhist practice impossible. > ----------------- > > KH: Is that strictly correct? In that particular instance, didn't > the Buddha explain that the questioner was not capable of hearing > the answer without falling into despair? (Sorry for my usual > inability to give references.) ------------------------------------------------ Howard: Yes, the venerable's formulation is slightly off. ------------------------------------------------ > > I think the point is; anatta is a characteristic of dhammas and, > therefore, it is accurate to say, "dhammas are not self" in > preference to, "there is no self." > > ----------------- > TB: "Thus the question should be put aside. > ----------------- > > Does that ring a bell with you? I seem to remember how you, like > many of us here, have been driven almost to distraction trying to > convince one of our members that, spoken or unspoken, there is no > room for the conclusion, "there is a self." The reasoning we use > is; if there are only dhammas and all dhammas are not self, then it > undeniably follows that there is no self. > > But those words fall on deaf ears. And the reason for that can be > traced back to ATI and the writings of Venerable Thanissaro. ---------------------------------------------- Howard: I agree that the no-self proposition is a valid deduction from the content to the Sabba Sutta and from the proposition that sabbe dhamma anatta. I, myself, make that deduction, but I am wary of propositions, even validly deduced ones. There is a question as to the pragmatic value of accepting such propositions as true knowledge, and especially as things to cling to. I believe that Ven T, and Victor as well, see following the road of logical inference as constituting a losing one's way on a side road remote from the noble 8-fold path. --------------------------------------------------- > > -------------- > TB: "To understand what his silence on this question says about the > meaning of anatta, we first have to look at his teachings on how > questions should be asked and answered, and how to interpret his > answers. > --------------- > > KH: TB goes on to explain questions, answers and interpretations in > a way that (IMHO) is unique to his view of the Dhamma. As I was > saying in my previous post, he sees the question of self/not-self as > a cause of stress or agitation. He thinks the Buddhist method is to > avoid the question thereby `freeing the mind from agitation' (his > definition of enlightenment, I think). > ----------------------------------------------- Howard: As I said in my last post on this, I believe he goes too far. ----------------------------------------------- > > In the introduction to his translation of the Alagaddupama Sutta, TB > says: > ---------- > "Thus it is important to focus on how the Dhamma is taught: Even in > his most thoroughgoing teachings about not-self, the Buddha never > recommends replacing the assumption that there is a self with the > assumption that there is no self. Instead, he only goes so far as to > point out the drawbacks of various ways of conceiving the self and > then to recommend dropping them. For example, in his standard series > of questions building on the logic of the inconstancy and stress of > the aggregates, he does not say that because the aggregates are > inconstant and stressful there is no self. He simply asks, When they > are inconstant and stressful, is it proper to assume that they > are "me, my self, what I am"? > > (KH: Does this sound familiar to you, Howard? Do you see how TB has > misled certain people?) > --------------------------------------------------- Howard: I don't see this as attemptin to mislead. The concern, I believe, is with achieving the desired result of liberation, as opposed to revealing conceptual truth. I see this as purely a matter of pragmatics. ----------------------------------------------------- > "Now, because the sense of self is a > product of "I-making," this question seeks to do nothing more than > to induce disenchantment and dispassion for that process of I- > making, so as to put a stop to it. Once that is accomplished, the > teaching has fulfilled its purpose in putting an end to suffering > and stress. That's the safety of the further shore. As the Buddha > says in this discourse, "Both formerly and now, monks, I declare > only stress and the cessation of stress." As he also says here, when > views of self are finally dropped, one is free from agitation; and > as MN 140 points out, when one is truly unagitated one is unbound. > The raft has reached the shore, and one can leave it there -- free > to go where one likes, in a way that cannot be traced." > -------------- > KH: Does this leave any doubt in the reader's mind? TB sees anatta > as a `raft' in the sense of an `expediency' (a temporary shutting- > out of the truth). > > As for his description of parinibbana, you might say "free to go > where one likes, in a way that cannot be traced" is just an > unfortunate choice of words. But no, TB repeatedly describes Nibbana > in that eternalist way. For example, when discussing how an arahant > after parinibbana, is said to be like a `flame gone out' (Aggi- > Vacchagotta Sutta) TB tells us how the audience to that sutta would > have understood the simile: > > TB: "Now, although the Vedic texts contain several different > theories concerning the physics of fire, there is at least one basic > point on which they agree: Fire, even when not manifest, continues > to exist in a latent form." > > Another eternalist definition is found in the article you have > quoted above, where TB concludes: > "In this sense, the anatta teaching is not a doctrine of no-self, > but a not-self strategy for shedding suffering by letting go of its > cause, leading to the highest, undying happiness. At that point, > questions of self, no-self, and not-self fall aside. Once there's > the experience of such total freedom, where would there be any > concern about what's experiencing it, or whether or not it's a > self?" (end quote) > > This post has gone too long, but I'd like to address more of your > points later. In the meantime, if you or any other members are not > convinced of ATI's eternalist leanings, please say so, I think it is > a very important matter to settle. > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ======================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34794 From: Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:46am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Buddhadasa, Anapanasati Sutta In a message dated 7/24/04 7:28:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... writes: Dear Jack, That was my interpretation of the chapter I cited from his book - did I read it wrong? Robert === See Eric's quote of Santikaro on Buddhdhadasa. jack 34795 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:56am Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta > E: Dont sell yourself short Jon. No one knows what the next moment > may bring! J : Your optimism is refreshing! I agree that the next moment can't be predicted (dhammas are anatta, after all); on the other hand, however, we know that everything happens in due order, development is only ever gradual. We should be realistic about where we are at present, don't you think? E : You don't 'know' where you or I am at now do you? Unless you can see kamma. You don't 'know' what you or I have done in our past lives and when those intentions will mature. So we are back to square one. Finding a need to put effort into one's practice. I do 'know' that this will lead to results in this very life! ... > E: I dont think so Jon. There is a big difference between the > foundation or frame of reference one is looking thru and the > insights that 'may' arise. If they were the same, then everyone > would 'realise' the same insight once the frame was set up and that > surely is not the case now is it? J : As I understand, it is the development of satipatthana itself that leads eventually to enlightenment, there being no separate 'intermediate' step,which is why I said that both satipatthana and vipassana are for practical purposes one and the same thing, both referring to the development of insight. See the passages copied below from the beginning and end of the Satipatthana Sutta. E: You really do hold your books close to your chest now dont you?! From the Anapanasati Sutta: "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? " Then the Buddha goes on and says how. So, he is equating Anapanasati to Satipatthana in that Anapanasati CULMINATES Satipatthana. ---- > E: Yes this is the commentarial view of it right? Use Anapanasati to develope jhana between steps 4 and 5. But there is no mention of > jhana in the Sutta itself. Why? Here is what Thanissaro says about > the Anapanasati Sutta in his intro to it. "One of the most important texts for beginning and veteran meditators alike..." J: What I said about the relationship between anapanasati and insight can be seen from the text of the sutta itself, so I would not describe it as (purely) the commentarial view. The key introductory passages of the sutta make it clear who the teaching is directed to. E: You did not answer my quesition. Where is jhana mentioned in the Anapanasati Sutta? As you seem to be saying you are incapable of jhana so the sutta does not apply to you. Regarding who it is addressed to. My take on it is that it was addressed to a lot of monks with varying abilities and some heavy weight teachers. That the Buddha instructed ALL of them in Anapanasati (teachers and students alike) shows how important this sutta is to a wide range of people with varrying abilities. That there is no specific mention to lay people does not mean much. It was at night in the monastery. So, all the lay people were probably at their own homes (there were no street lamps then you know). Most of the meetings and teachings with lay people happened while the sun was up after a lunch offering. What is the big deal!? What you are deducing from the omission is a stretch at best. Besides, he was instructing or at least telling all the teachers how important Anapanasati is. Who do you think taught all the lay people? They did not have nice bound books with commentaries back then you know. ---- E > May I ask you a personal question? Have you ever been instructed in Anapanasati by a senior monk or meditator? Have you ever practised > it in earnest? J: I don't mind the personal question, Eric, but I really don't think it matters (and I certainly claim no expertise in the area). Surely you are more interested in what the Buddha had to say on the subject than in my personal expereince ;-)) E: That means no. So, if I remember correctly from a recent post, you were criticising someone for forming an opinion about the abhidhamma when they had not even read it and now you have your own opinions about Anapanasati without ever practicing it. Do you think that is fair and proper? ---- > E: You sound like my first meditation teacher. He did not hold > Buddhadasa up to much esteem either. J: My comments were not meant to be any reflection on Ven Buddhadasa, whom I do not know and whose writings I have not really studied. I simply meant to indicate that my reading of the Anapanasati Sutta was quite different – I see it as being about vipassana for the dedicated and advanced anapanasati practitioner (who must also be fairly advanced in satipatthana/vipassansa). For the rest of us, there is plenty of useful, and more relevant, information about vipassana to be found in other suttas. E: What is the harm in 'trying' both? Come on in Jon, I assure you the water is warm and it gets deep gradually! ---- E:> If emptiness arises in meditation then what Buddhadasa had to say in this regards has a lot of merit! J:On the other hand, there is a lot to be said for reading the suttas and commentaries for oneself, since these are readily available in good translation, as I think you agree. E: Of course Jon but I was also speaking from my experience. But if you believe everything in the Suttas to be true, then the Dhamma dissapeared 500 years after the Buddha passed. So, the Visudhimagga is at least 1000 years later so it can't be relevant. And we are all living 2500 years later. So, what are we all doing studying and practicing a Dhamma and its commentaries that reference something that no longer exists? Living in a waking dream? Sweet dreams everyone! PEACE E From 'The Way of Mindfulness' trans of the Satipatthana Sutta: "Thus have I heard. At one time the Blessed One was living in the Kurus, at Kammasadamma, a market-town of the Kuru people. Then the Blessed One addressed the bhikkhus as follows: "This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." ... "O bhikkhus, should any person maintain the Four Arousings of Mindfulness in this manner for seven years, then by him one of two fruitions is proper to be expected: Knowledge (Arahantship) here and now; or, if some form of clinging is yet present, the state of Non-Returning (the Third Stage of Supramundane Fulfillment). ... "Because of this was it said: 'This is the only way, O bhikkhus, for the purification of beings, for the overcoming of sorrow and lamentation, for the destruction of suffering and grief, for reaching the right path, for the attainment of Nibbana, namely, the Four Arousings of Mindfulness." 34796 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:13am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI > This post has gone too long, but I'd like to address more of your > points later. In the meantime, if you or any other members are not > convinced of ATI's eternalist leanings, please say so, I think it is a very important matter to settle. > > Kind regards, > Ken H Hey Ken, Go to metta forest monastery and see and ask Thanisarro yourself. You can even call him on the phone. He will probably answer it if he is there! My brief observations, meeting and discussion with him showed me he is a very practical and insightful man. What he is saying is we are stuck in samsara with our pathetic little selves (is this not evident to everyone?) The only thing you or I can do is to begin to practice. So he is offering us a tip while we still cling to this little 'self' of me and mine. He says to use no-self as a srategy till self is gone. When does 'self' disappear? When the conceit 'I am' is gone (i.e. an Arahat). Till then, you can think and 'beieve' that there is no-self but it is not your waking 'reality'. The other thing to keep in mind with any teacher or teaching is the 2 different ways they talk or refer to 'reality'. Relatively there is a 'you' and 'me' but Ultimately there is not. If you do not have a good grasp of these 2 different languages, you are bound to confuse the 2. PEACE E 34797 From: ericlonline Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:28am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > > > This post has gone too long, but I'd like to address more of your > > points later. In the meantime, if you or any other members are not > > convinced of ATI's eternalist leanings, please say so, I think it > is a very important matter to settle. > > > > Kind regards, > > Ken H > > Hey Ken, > > Go to metta forest monastery and see and ask Thanisarro yourself. > You can even call him on the phone. He will probably answer it if he > is there! > > My brief observations, meeting and discussion with him showed me he > is a very practical and insightful man. What he is saying is we are > stuck in samsara with our pathetic little selves (is this not > evident to everyone?) The only thing you or I can do is to begin to > practice. So he is offering us a tip while we still cling to this > little 'self' of me and mine. He says to use no-self as a srategy > till self is gone. When does 'self' disappear? When the conceit 'I > am' is gone (i.e. an Arahat). Till then, you can think and 'beieve' > that there is no-self but it is not your waking 'reality'. > > The other thing to keep in mind with any teacher or teaching is the > 2 different ways they talk or refer to 'reality'. Relatively there > is a 'you' and 'me' but Ultimately there is not. If you do not have > a good grasp of these 2 different languages, you are bound to > confuse the 2. > > PEACE > > E PS self is the raft people! 34798 From: nori Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 2:26pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic thoughts on Sati (awareness), Samahdi (concentration) and Anapana Hi Sarah, Thanks for you reply sarah. It good to hear from you too. peace, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > Hi Nori & All, > > I'm very glad to read your posts again- I always enjoy your reflections > and the sharing of your reading, dilemmas and practice. > > I'm touching on two of your posts here: > > --- nori wrote: > hi all, > > Examples of scattered and focused Sati/mindfulness/Awareness: > > > > Lets say we are sitting in a room and there are lots of people > > talking. If we do not focus our awareness we would hear just an > > ocean of sounds. However, our awareness is directable, and > > concentrate-able so we can, by our will and intention, focus on a > > particular person, and a particular voice, and now when we do this, > > we can 'discern' that one voice, his words and then interpret what > > he is saying. > > > > Another example: You stop while driving for directions and while > > someone is telling you directions, somebody else in the car is > > talking to you. Now your awareness is split up between both people > > talking to you. It is more likely that since your awareness was > > divided, that you will not retain those directions; where as if you > > had focused your complete attention/awareness on the person giving > > you the directions, you would have had a more intense/distinct > > experience of it, and you would retain the experience better in this > > case. > .... > S: I think these are good examples of what we're used to considering as > being mindfulness or awareness conventionally but they are not examples, > as I understand, of sati accompanying all wholesome consciousness and > particularly not of sati in satipatthana which is not a focussing or > `retaining in memory'. This kind of focussing or retaining you describe is > seldom wholesome as I see it and doesn't require a Buddha to teach it. > Kids playing computer games are experts! > ... > Jumping to your `is sensual pleasure......' post, I thought it was > beautifully written and raised important concerns. > > I think the difficulties and stress related that your refer to tend to be > related to deeply-held ideas of self and control and setting of rules for > ourselves. It's one thing to see the value in reflecting on and > appreciating the dangers of sensual pleasures and another to try and > orchestrate a lifestyle that is devoid of these, not realizing that the > accumulated tendencies and attachments can arise at anytime, whether on > the mountain bike (I'm keenly following Lance Armstrong in the Tour du > France), in the forest or kuti. Wishing that sensual pleasures would > subside is bound to lead to more stress because at these times there is no > equanimity, but merely more `disquietness of heart'. This doesn't mean I'm > advocating you revert to `your typical American life', but understand that > whatever namas or rupas arise now, are conditioned and can be known. > > In a post to Christine, I referred to a sutta about Uttara, Nanda's > mother, who experienced no `disquietness of heart' when her son was slain > and so on. The reason I find such suttas to be so very inspiring is > certainly not because there is or would be any lack of `disquietness' in > my own heart, but because life is so very tough when we experience great > loss and to a lesser extent on a daily basis, that it is with great > appreciation and gratiude that we can read about those `sappurisa' or > noble friends who penetrated the Truths, developed wisdom with detachment > and found the way to overcome Suffering in its deepest sense as applying > to all conditioned dhammas. > > As James put it: > > "When I ponder this quagmire of suffering that we are all caught in, and > the only solution for us all that the Buddha found, my appreciation of the > Buddhadhamma grows to a point beyond description." > > Metta, > > Sarah > ====== 34799 From: suicidal_one2004 Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 11:30am Subject: Re: Four foundations of mindfulness- simultaneously? --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "ericlonline" wrote: > Hey SO, > > I've been reading "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness" by Ven. U > Silananda and Thanissaro Bhikku's "Wings to Awakening." > > Surely we all know the Buddha says whoever is practising these four > foundations of mindfulness [*each of body, feelings, mind, and > dhammas in and of themselves*] for [7 years down to 7 days] can > expect gnosis here & now or if there is still some trace of > affliction, non-return. > > My question is, must these all be practised concurrently, or do we > merely shift attention to whatever comes to the fore? > > > > E: It seems in the beginning, the mind is not capable to keep up > with impermanence. So the systematic consideration via the frames is > recommended. One of the ideas is to 'realize' (experientially know) > what conditions what. By relating and investigating experience to > one frame of reference, this knowledge begins to dawn. It is a key > component of skillful means. > > It seems you have some good reference points, now test them! Only > you will be able to discern whether they are true or not. My only > suggestion is to not hold the conclusions too tightly as they are > going to change. > > PEACE > > E So you are saying establish one of the four foundations of mindfulness well and discern the truths related to that before rousing the others, and 'getting it together,' am I right? It seems you are also referencing mindfulness of feelings (mind) to investigate anicca and anatta which seems reasonable to me esp. on the meditation cushion, but I have traditionally looked through anicca via mindfulness of feelings of the body (pleasant, painful, or neutral). peace, andrew levin 34800 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:20pm Subject: RE: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi Jon, I would like to make a small wager with you. I would like to wager with you that before reaching the end of the sutta I am about to quote, you will have formed and accepted a number of reasons why this sutta doesn't apply to you. Now, bear in mind, it is quite a concise sutta. Pithy is such a good word to describe the Buddha's teachings. Please read and train yourself thus if you would like to reach the goal of the questioner: The alternative is spelt out quite pithily by the Buddha in the second line. "But it is in just this way that some worthless men make a request but then, having been told the Dhamma, think they should tag along right behind me." (I personally do not think of anyone as being worthless) Anguttara Nikaya VIII.63 Sankhitta Sutta In Brief (Good Will, Mindfulness, & Concentration) Translated from the Pali by Thanissaro Bhikkhu. [Translator's note: This discourse is important in that it explicitly refers to the practice of the four frames of reference (the four foundations of mindfulness) as a form of concentration practice, mastered in terms of the levels of jhana.] Now what is at stake with this wager? Not a lot for one who teaches that, while a worldling, there is nothing to be done, seeing as there is only conditionality. It is quite pernicious for a worldling to confuse the insights of an arahant with the rememberings of words. A worldling is indeed a wordling (my spelling checker is having kittens :-)). It is the program of the wordling/worldling to extend their suffering, being unaware of it. It is the program of the Buddha to eradicate suffering, making known its all-pervasive thereness and its ending. I marvel at the casual way in which people wishfully assure themselves of the many more lives they are bound to require before the path and fruition come into play. The Buddha says of procrastination : "Shariputra, if someone gives up this body and seizes another, I say it is a fault." ( from M.XV,2.) (Yes, I know, it doesn't apply to you :-)) And what to make of The Discourses on Future Dangers, http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an05-077.html. The arahant has no need for the words "Train yourself thus". But everyone else needs to wholesomely seize every moment, and be reminded of it incessantly. So as not to confuse newbies, which is also a concern of Ken H, perhaps all posting arahants could specify that much in their subject headings :-) To avoid intellectualising, perhaps we need to restrict our discussions to suttas specifically aimed at lay folk. With kind regards Herman =========================================== -----Original Message----- From: Jonothan Abbott [mailto:jonoabb@y...] Sent: Saturday, 24 July 2004 9:11 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: Re: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi, Howard Would you agree that 'concentration' in these cases would have to be *kusala* concentration (i.e., concentration that accompanies kusala citta of one kind or another)? How is that kusala concentration to be developed, in your view? Jon 34801 From: Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 4:50pm Subject: Vism.XIV 90 "The Path of Purification" (Visuddhimagga) Ch. XIV 90. II. (a) Herein, (22)-(29) that 'rooted in greed' is of eight kinds, being classed according to joy, equanimity, [false] view, and prompting, that is to say: (22) when accompanied by joy it is either associated-with-[false-] view and unprompted, or (23) prompted; or (24) it is dissociated-from-[false-] view and likewise [unprompted or (25) prompted]; and (26) when accompanied-by-equanimity it is either associated-with-[false-] view and unprompted, or (27) prompted; or (28) it is dissociated-from-[false-] view and likewise [unprompted, or (29) prompted]. 34802 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 6:42pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhadasa, Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > In a message dated 7/24/04 7:28:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, rjkjp1@y... > writes: > Dear Jack, > That was my interpretation of the chapter I cited from his book - > did I read it wrong? > Robert > === > See Eric's quote of Santikaro on Buddhdhadasa. > > jack > ===================== Dear Jack, I read the quote from venerable Santikaro. I am not sure of the relevance, was my reading of Venerable Buddhadasa's tract on the 'natural method' wrong? Was he in fact rather than saying formal meditation was not needed (as I had thought)saying that it was? Robert 34803 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:55pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Buddhadasa, Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "rjkjp1" wrote: > --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jackhat1@a... wrote: > > In a message dated 7/24/04 7:28:04 AM Pacific Daylight Time, > rjkjp1@y... > > > ===================== > Dear Jack, > I read the quote from venerable Santikaro. I am not sure of the > relevance, was my reading of Venerable Buddhadasa's tract on > the 'natural method' wrong? Was he in fact rather than saying formal > meditation was not needed (as I had thought)saying that it was? > Robert ==== Dear Jack, I just reread it now I see what Venerable Santikaro is saying: ""In the series, there was some attempt to interest the judges-to-be in formal meditation practice, but more of an effort to get them to understand Buddhist principles so that they would be more inclined to ethical behavior in their work & Dhamma understanding in their lives. Perhaps this could lead to interest in introspection, mindfulness, and meditation""" So I gather when Buddhadasa said "we can practice the development of insight by the nature method in all circumstances and at all times just by making our own way of daily living so pure and honest that there arise in succession spiritual joy (piti and pamoda), calm (passaddhi), insight into the true nature of things (yathabhutananadassana), disenchantment (nibbida), withdrawal (viraga), escape (vimutti), purification from defilements (visuddhi), and coolness (santi), so that we come to get a taste of freedom from suffering (nibbana)- steadily, naturally, day by day, month by month, year by year, gradually approaching closer and closer to Nirvana. Summing up, natural concentration and insight, which enable a person to attain the Path and the Fruit, consist in verifying all day and every day the truth of the statement that nothing is worth getting or being." and "One thing must be noticed, however: the intensity of concentration that comes about naturally is usually sufficient and appropriate for introspection and insight, whereas the concentration resulting from organized training is usually excessive," So was this a ploy that he hoped would eventually lead to formal meditation, not what he really believed? And even if it didn't lead to the real thing - formal meditation- at least it was better than nothing. RobertK 34804 From: Robert Epstein Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:04pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, Jonothan Abbott wrote: > Hi, Rob > > Nice to hear from you again. > > Rob: > I found this message from what seems to be a couple of months ago. Sorry > that it slipped through the cracks. > > Jon: > No problem, Rob. I'm just happy to find someone who takes even longer to > reply than I do ;-)) ha ha, well look no further!! > Rob: > Although you know that I personally believe that mindfulness of breathing > is a useful focus for all who want to develop mindfulness, I certainly > find your argument interesting and am glad to have such a clear statement > of it. I don't doubt that those whom Buddha was addressing in this sutta > were advanced practitioners and that this may have had some influence on > the subject matter, but i don't think that it rules out the usefulness of > what he is describing. > > Jon: > I agree with you on this last point. There is no question whatsoever as > to the usefulness of mindfulness of breathing in general, or of the > development of insight combined with mindfulness of breathing as described > in the Anapanasati Sutta. The only question is as to the 'applicability' > to you and me of what is described in that sutta – do we at this time fall > within the class of persons capable of putting into practice what is there > described? On this question, the details of the occasion and the audience > to whom the sutta was spoken will be relevant. > > To put that another way, is this particular passage to be read as a > general endorsement of anapanasati for all who want to develop mindfulness > (including relative beginners), or is it to be read as setting out a path > for those who are at the stage of development where they have the > potential for attainment of enlightenment (a) in this lifetime and (b) > with jhana as basis? Well, my feeling is that people are going to recognize something when it is their time to do it. A while back, when the jhanas came up as a topic here on dsg, something happened to me and I lit up like a Christmas tree. I just had this instant reaction "The jhanas oh yeah that's it!" almost as though it was something I had forgotten about and neglected. Now, I think that if someone has that reaction that something is resonating with them and it means something. I've mentioned certain Buddhist principles to people and they've literally looked past me and didn't even hear what I said. If people are not ready to hear something it may not even register. If we are drawn to anapanasati then there is probably a reason in our accumulations. Still, we don't have to worry because conditions will take care of it. I actually sat down to practice some preliminary stages of jhana a few times, and found it very interesting. But the normal course of events pulled me away and it didn't become a "regular thing." So conditions are not ripe for me to do that. I see it that way: if we are not so attached one way or the other then things will take their natural course. But we should also be open to the possibility of doing something and when the time is right the opportunity will arise. > Rob: > If you feel that mindfulness of breathing is very difficult and reserved > for those who have already cultivated samatha with breathing as object, it > seems to me that you would also acknowledge the extreme difficulty of > actually perceiving the arisal of rupas and namas in the moment, as is the > aim of Abhidhamma. Could anything be more difficult than that? > > Jon: > Again, I agree with this observation. In my view, the difficulty of both > mindfulness of breathing and insight development are severely > underestimated. But of the two, the development of insight is infinitely > more difficult, both in terms of the opportunity of hearing the right > explanation and in terms of understanding what is involved. The teaching > on samatha bhavana is extant in the world long after the dhamma has > disappeared. Indeed, that is one reason why in my view our energies > should be concentrated in this lifetime on studying what the Buddha had to > say about vipassana. Well......I may be off-base, but I think that the reciprocal relationship between samatha and vipassana cannot be underestimated. Even if one's path is to be the "dry" approach to vipassana for various reasons, perhaps a little samatha will be helpful to create kusala conditions for the arising of satipatthana. Why not lubricate the dry path a bit, or do you think they do not mix at all? Also, I find myself a bit confused: If the mindfulness of breathing work is focussed towards the four foundations of mindfulenss, this would seem to me to be work that is directly focussed on satipatthana and leading towards vipassana. Could you advise me why you think that a focus on the development of samatha is inherent in this description? It seems to me the Buddha is focussed in these suttas, not on the breath as a calmative or merely as object of concentration, but as a base for developing satipatthana of the four foundations. Although the observation and slowing and calming of the breath and mind are part of the anapanasati sutta, there is probably far more on the stages of development of insight and mindfulness of the four foundations. > (A minor quibble. The actual perception of arisen namas and rupas is not > the aim of just the Abhidhamma, but is the aim of the suttas and the > Vinaya also, I believe.) Well....I would agree that this is always an important aim, but I think the Buddha ranges on a much broader scope in the suttas than in the Abhidhamma, which seems to specialize in analysis of cittas and cetasikas in detail. > Rob, I appreciate your comments and contribution to this discussion. I > hope I have managed to get across that our difference is not so much on > the question of whether mindfulness of breathing is a high level of kusala > or not, nor on whether it was widely practised in the Buddha's time, nor > whether it may in certain circumstances be the basis for the development > of insight and indeed enlightenment (there is no dispute from me on any of > these points), but on the question of how relevant the Anapanasati Sutta > is to you and me as regards the development of insight at the present > moment, in our lives as we presently live them. Jon, I actually find this somewhat comforting. It does make me think that we have a nice basis for discussion, and that we can look at particular aspects of the subject more easily. I thank you for making this clear, and look forward to your response to my and others' posts in this area, which is very intriguing to me. Best, Rob Ep. 34805 From: kenhowardau Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 10:35pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Eric, Welcome to DSG. You wrote: -------------------- > Go to metta forest monastery and see and ask Thanisarro yourself. You can even call him on the phone. > ------------------- Thanks, but I think I understand Ven Thanissaro's perspective: he has stated it clearly enough on ATI. It would be helpful if, for the record, he were to answer the question, "Is there, ultimately, a self; yes or no?" However, he has already said that question should be answered with silence. My point in raising this issue is that others – Howard for one, and perhaps you too – are not hearing the message TB is trying to convey. You are assuming he does not believe in self. However, he would not thank you for making that assumption: in his opinion, anatta is not about the existence or non-existence of self but rather, it is a strategy for calming the mind (ridding it of self- conceit). He is not being dishonest or evasive: to the contrary, he is making his point as plainly as he can. Other people (including me until recently) are putting words in his mouth. ----------------------- E: > The other thing to keep in mind with any teacher or teaching is the 2 different ways they talk or refer to 'reality'. Relatively there is a 'you' and 'me' but Ultimately there is not. If you do not have a good grasp of these 2 different languages, you are bound to confuse the 2. > ---------------------- Yes, I agree entirely: conventionally we say there is a self (man, woman, animal etc.) but, as Dhamma students, we know there is ultimately no self. The venerable bhikkhu disagrees and that is his privilege. Just so long as we all know where we stand. :-) Kind regards, Ken H 34806 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:17am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI > Dear Ken, I had a look at the article you mention. The Venerable refers to the sutta to Vacchagotta "Having taken a seat to one side, Vacchagotta the wanderer said to the Master, 'Now then, Venerable Gotama, is there a self?' When this was said, the Master was silent. 'Then is there no self?' For a second time the Master was silent. Then Vacchagotta the wanderer got up from his seat and left. Then, not long after Vacchagotta the wanderer had left, the Venerable Ananda said to the Master, 'Why, sir, did the Master not answer when asked a question asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer?' 'Ananda, if I, being asked by Vacchagotta the wanderer if there is a self, were to answer that there is a self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of eternalism (i.e., the view that there is an eternal soul). And if I... were to answer that there is no self, that would be conforming with those priests & contemplatives who are exponents of annihilationism (i.e., that death is the annihilation of experience). If I... were to answer that there is a self, WOULD THAT BE IN KEEPING WITH THE ARISING OF KNOWLEDGE THAT ALL PHENOMENA ARE NOT-SELF (my capitals). 'No, Lord.' ' -- S xliv.10 Accesstoinsight: "it would seem most honest to take the first dialogue at face value, and to say that the question of whether or not there is a self is one on which the Buddha did not take a position, regardless of whether he was talking to a spiritually confused person like Vacchagotta, or a more advanced person like Ananda. For him, the doctrine of not-self is a technique or strategy for liberation, and not a metaphysical or ontological position."" So in fact although the Buddha said that all dhammas are not self this was merely a strategy. In the same way I assume the other two Lakkhana (characteristics )- anicca and dukkha are strategies, not to be thought of as true or actual descriptions of realities. Do you know if there is another article on Accesstoinsight entitled "The Impermanence Strategy"? RobertK 34807 From: Antony Woods Date: Sat Jul 24, 2004 7:07pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Dear all, Here is a passage from MN 2 which addresses my debilitating morbid obsession with whether I am doomed to be reborn in the lower realms after death (MN 131 also helps): "This is how he attends inappropriately: 'Was I in the past? Was I not in the past? What was I in the past? How was I in the past? Having been what, what was I in the past? Shall I be in the future? Shall I not be in the future? What shall I be in the future? How shall I be in the future? Having been what, what shall I be in the future?' Or else he is inwardly perplexed about the immediate present: 'Am I? Am I not? What am I? How am I? Where has this being come from? Where is it bound?' "As he attends inappropriately in this way, one of six kinds of view arises in him: The view I have a self arises in him as true & established, or the view I have no self ... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive self ... or the view It is precisely by means of self that I perceive not-self ... or the view It is precisely by means of not-self that I perceive self arises in him as true & established, or else he has a view like this: This very self of mine -- the knower that is sensitive here & there to the ripening of good & bad actions -- is the self of mine that is constant, everlasting, eternal, not subject to change, and will stay just as it is for eternity. This is called a thicket of views, a wilderness of views, a contortion of views, a writhing of views, a fetter of views. Bound by a fetter of views, the uninstructed run-of-the-mill person is not freed from birth, aging, & death, from sorrow, lamentation, pain, distress, & despair. He is not freed, I tell you, from suffering & stress. "The well-instructed disciple of the noble ones -- who has regard for noble ones, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma; who has regard for men of integrity, is well-versed & disciplined in their Dhamma -- discerns what ideas are fit for attention and what ideas are unfit for attention. This being so, he does not attend to ideas unfit for attention and attends [instead] to ideas fit for attention. "And what are the ideas unfit for attention that he does not attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality increases; the unarisen fermentation of becoming arises in him, and arisen fermentation of becoming increases; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance arises in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance increases. These are the ideas unfit for attention that he does not attend to. "And what are the ideas fit for attention that he does attend to? Whatever ideas such that, when he attends to them, the unarisen fermentation of sensuality does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of sensuality is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of becoming does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of becoming is abandoned; the unarisen fermentation of ignorance does not arise in him, and the arisen fermentation of ignorance is abandoned. These are the ideas fit for attention that he does attend to. Through his not attending to ideas unfit for attention and through his attending to ideas fit for attention, unarisen fermentations do not arise in him, and arisen fermentations are abandoned. "He attends appropriately, This is stress... This is the origination of stress... This is the cessation of stress... This is the way leading to the cessation of stress. As he attends appropriately in this way, three fetters are abandoned in him: identity-view, doubt, and grasping at precepts & practices. These are called the fermentations to be abandoned by seeing. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/majjhima/mn002.html When I read the following sutta I said "Oh no!" and was severely depressed for a few weeks: SN 56:102-104 Passing Away as Humans Then the Blessed One took up a little bit of soil in his fingernail and addressed the bhikkhus thus: "What do you think, bhikkhus, which is more: the little bit of soil in my fingernail or the great earth?" "Venerable sir, the great earth is more. The little bit of soil that the Blessed One has taken up in his fingernail is not calculable, does not bear comparison, does not amount even to a fraction." "So too, bhikkhus, those beings are few who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn among human beings. But those beings are more numerous who, when they pass away as human beings, are reborn in hell...the animal realm....the domain of ghosts. For what reason? Because, bhikkhus, they have not seen the Four Noble Truths. What four? The noble truth of suffering, the noble truth of the origin of suffering, the noble truth of the cessation of suffering, the noble truth of the way leading to the cessation of suffering. "Therefore, bhikkhus, an exertion should be made to understand: 'This is suffering.'....An exertion should be made to understand: 'This is the way leading to the cessation of suffering.' (posted with permission from "Connected Discourses of the Buddha", Wisdom Publications, http://www.wisdompubs.org ) The context of this sutta helps though. Previously Buddha said that it is just as extremely rare to abstain from killing, stealing, sexual misconduct, lying, intoxicants, mutilating, murder, binding, robbery, plunder and violence. Ancient India must have been a dangerous place! So this life is the best chance we have. It is no good saying we will wait for future lives to be enlightened. Only the first stage of enlightenment can guarantee we will not be reborn in lower realms, and it is extremely difficult to return to the human realm once there. It is also extremely difficult to attain enlightenment. In another sutta the Buddha says it is more difficult than to split a hair with an arrow. So I feel like I am in serious trouble! The difficulty in attaining enlightenment does not remove the urgency. May we be enlightened in this very life! Metta / Antony. 34808 From: rjkjp1 Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 1:53am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "Antony Woods" wrote: > Dear all, > > Here is a passage from MN 2 which addresses my debilitating > morbid obsession with whether I am doomed to be reborn in > the lower realms after death (MN 131 also helps): > > "========== Dear Antony, When this fear arises see if it is related to an idea of self. Even a sotapanna still has moments of trepidatation becuase they have not eradicated dosa, but the less there is the idea of self the less that fear arises. The Dhamma is a warrior path, and there is nothing harder than erasing self view. We go into battle a thousand times, no matter how fearful, and gradually fear becomes just another dhamma, nothing to be concerned by. In Three Kings the young private is looking scared - just before the heavy part. George Clooney tells him that first you do what is most fearful, after that the courage comes. the private: "That's crazy". Clooney:?@"But that's the way it works". And that is the way it works. Giving up self, it can be done right at the moment fear is strongest. One can become a hero right then and there, it can be the doorway to the selfless. Not a strategy, but the absolute truth. If this happens a few times one will not think they have to be in a special place or position. The Dhamma is Dhamma at all times - it is the only refuge. RobertK 34809 From: christine_forsyth Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:42am Subject: Reliability of the Oral Tradition in preserving the Teachings Dear Group, This may be of interest to those who wonder whether the Three Baskets could possibly be the exact Teachings of the Blessed One due to the years when they were passed on by the Reciters. http://tinyurl.com/3ke38 metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34810 From: nori Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:14am Subject: Re: [dsg] Basic thoughts on Sati (awareness), Samahdi (concentration) and Anapana Hi Sarah, --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, sarah abbott wrote: > S: I think these are good examples of what we're used to considering as > being mindfulness or awareness conventionally but they are not examples, > as I understand, of sati accompanying all wholesome consciousness and > particularly not of sati in satipatthana which is not a focussing or > `retaining in memory'. This kind of focussing or retaining you describe is > seldom wholesome as I see it ... I have to disagree with you on that. If there is Sati then there will be retaining in memory. Satipatthana - that is, investigation of dhamma (and just everyday life) requires you to focus/direct your awareness. Without directing/focusing your awareness there is no discernment; the stronger your ability to focus/direct your awareness (and also maintain unbroken awareness on a object) the stronger your discernment. Just the fact that one turns his awareness upon itself, the awareness is already being directed/focused. Reflection, that is, recalling from memory is also part of the process of Satipatthana. I will recall a section from the Maha Satipatthana Sutta (PTS): D.ii.295 '...And moreover, bhikkus a brother, just as if he had seen a body abandoned in a charnel field, dead for one, two or three days ... decomposed, applies that very perception to this very body (of his own), reflecting: 'This body, too, is even so constituted,...' peace, nori 34811 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:10am Subject: RE: [dsg] Precepts - Veganism Hi Christine, I share your concerns about this industry of raising animals for the sake of nurturing our bodies. The ease whereby we remain ignorant of what happens behind the scenes in order for us to have our daily lives as consumers of neatly shelved and once living products is also frightening. This business of living is quite revolting really. Perhaps there is some consolation in the thought that all that one has ever consumed is returned for other life to consume. Kind Regards Herman -----Original Message----- From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] Sent: Saturday, 24 July 2004 2:08 PM To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com Subject: [dsg] Precepts - Veganism Dear Group, Just wondering. The Precepts apply to the way buddhists act towards all beings. For instance, if we intentionally kill a cow or an insect - it is just as much killing as killing a human - though there are some differing opinions as to whether the vipaka is identical. I know, and have used, the explanation that buying meat from a butcher means one is not guilty of breaking the Precept against killing because I did not personally do or request the killing, and they were not specifically killed for 'me'. Increasingly I am feeling that the modern intensive farming methods would be regarded unfavourably by the Buddha. I know, and have used, the explanations that he and his bhikkhus had to live off the alms of the people and therefore were to accept what was given and have no preferences. The occasional butchering of an animal at the time of the Buddha can in no way rival the efficiency of the method and sheer multitudes of beings being bred and 'processed' within the commercial food markets today. And what of the Precept against stealing? Particularly with regard to milk, eggs and honey. The cows, chickens and the bees do not 'give' the fluids of their bodies - so couldn't the consumption of milk, icecream, cheese, yoghurt, honey and eggs be regarded as stealing. Most of them are kept in stressful (suffering) conditions, which continues for years until they are no longer useful and are 'disposed of'. Killing is one quick moment - could it be that this living off the body products of unwilling and powerless animals is worse than that? Wouldn't this make a Vegan way of life the way to go? metta and peace, Christine ---The trouble is that you think you have time--- 34812 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:45am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Eric Many thanks for these comments. Very robustly put! Let me try to consolidate the discussion a little, so that it doesn't become too fragmented. The areas we are covering are I think as follows: A. What 'anapanasati' is/isn't, and how it is 'practised' B. What the Anapanasati Sutta has to say about anapanasati C. The prospects for enlightenment in this lifetime (especially Jon's ;-)) D. The disappearance/non-disappearance of the teachings over time. OK, let me tell you what little I know about these. A. Anapanasati As I understand it, anapanasati means the development of samatha (a form of kusala mental development -- also known as 'samadhi' in some contexts) with breath as the object. Breath is one of several objects of samatha bhavana that allow concentration to be developed to access or absorption level. Other such objects include maranasati (recollection of death), Buddhanusati, Dhammanusati and Sanghanusati (recollection of the Buddha, Dhamma, Sangha), the kasinas, the brahma-viharas (metta, karuna, etc.), foulness of the body, and others (38 or 40 subjects in all). As a side note, the 'sati' of anapanasati, maranasati, Buddhanusati, etc., does not refer to the 'sati' of satipatthana; it just happens to be part of the name of the particular kind of samatha bhavana. The development of these forms of samatha has no particular connection to satipatthana (or, if you prefer, no particular connection that is not shared by the other subjects for samatha bhavana such as the kasinas), except course in so far as there is special mention elsewhere in the suttas, such as the Satipatthana Sutta or the Anapanasati Sutta, which I will mention below. Now, samatha bhavana is one of the 2 forms of bhavana (mental development) discussed in the teachings, the other being vipassana bhavana (otherwise referred to as satipatthana). 'Samatha' means serenity or calm (these are the translations used by Bhikkhu Bodhi and Ven. Nanamoli in their translations). In terms of the 'conditioned dhammas' it is kusala consciousness of a particular kind, characterised by the mental factor of passaddhi ('tranquillity' in the Bhikkhu Bodhi translations). As a form of mental development, samatha is accompanied by panna of the appropriate level. High levels of kusala concentration can only be attained if the moments of samatha are accompanied by panna. Well that's it for anapanasati. Any issues so far? B. What the Anapanasati Sutta has to say about anapanasati. In my view the Anapanasati Sutta is not about *anapanasati for the beginner*, but about *vipassana for the advanced anapanasati practitioner*. By this I mean the sutta shows how for the advanced anapanasati practitioner vipassana (insight) leading to enlightenment can also be developed in tandem with the anapanasati. The key passages that set the overall context for the sutta are (a) the description of those present at the time, and (b) the description of the person exemplified for the purpose of the 4 tetrads. I have covered these points in earlier posts (some might say, ad nauseam ;-)), so if you don't mind I'll give links for now as follows: http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/33056 http://groups.yahoo.com/group/dhammastudygroup/message/15185 I think I've said enough for 1 post and besides I'm out of steam. The remaining topics (C. and D.) I'll come back on separately. Jon --- ericlonline wrote: ... > E: You really do hold your books close to your chest now dont you?! > > From the Anapanasati Sutta: > "Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so > as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? " > Then the Buddha goes on and says how. > > So, he is equating Anapanasati to Satipatthana in that Anapanasati > CULMINATES Satipatthana. ... > J: What I said about the relationship between anapanasati and > insight can be seen from the text of the sutta itself, so I would > not describe it as (purely) the commentarial view. The key > introductory passages of the sutta make it clear who the teaching is > directed to. > > E: You did not answer my quesition. Where is jhana mentioned in the > Anapanasati Sutta? As you seem to be saying you are incapable of > jhana so the sutta does not apply to you. > > Regarding who it is addressed to. My take on it is that it was > addressed to a lot of monks with varying abilities and some heavy > weight teachers. That the Buddha instructed ALL of them in > Anapanasati (teachers and students alike) shows how important this > sutta is to a wide range of people with varrying abilities. That > there is no specific mention to lay people does not mean much. It > was at night in the monastery. So, all the lay people were probably > at their own homes (there were no street lamps then you know). Most > of the meetings and teachings with lay people happened while the sun > was up after a lunch offering. What is the big deal!? What you are > deducing from the omission is a stretch at best. Besides, he was > instructing or at least telling all the teachers how important > Anapanasati is. Who do you think taught all the lay people? They did > not have nice bound books with commentaries back then you know. ... > J: I don't mind the personal question, Eric, but I really don't > think it matters (and I certainly claim no expertise in the area). > Surely you are more interested in what the Buddha had to say on the > subject than in my personal expereince ;-)) > > E: That means no. So, if I remember correctly from a recent post, > you were criticising someone for forming an opinion about the > abhidhamma when they had not even read it and now you have your own > opinions about Anapanasati without ever practicing it. Do you think > that is fair and proper? ... > For the rest of us, there is plenty of useful, and more relevant, > information about vipassana to be found in other suttas. > > E: What is the harm in 'trying' both? Come on in Jon, I assure you > the water is warm and it gets deep gradually! 34813 From: Jonothan Abbott Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:02am Subject: RE: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi, Herman --- Herman Hofman wrote: > Hi Jon, > > I would like to make a small wager with you. I would like to wager with > you that before reaching the end of the sutta I am about to quote, you > will have formed and accepted a number of reasons why this sutta doesn't > apply to you. Now, bear in mind, it is quite a concise sutta. Pithy is > such a good word to describe the Buddha's teachings. Ouch. I seem to be under attack today! So much for a pleasant Sunday afternoon. OK then, let me see ... Anguttara Nikaya VIII.63, Sankhitta Sutta, In Brief http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-063.html "Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone in seclusion: heedful, ardent, & resolute." " OK Herman, you've won your wager already. I immediately spotted this as not applying to me, in that: (a) I would never ask for a teaching *in brief*; I would always need to hear the full works, and then more than once, and (b) 'heedful, ardent, & resolute' just isn't me, I'm afraid. [Sutta continues:] "But it is in just this way that some worthless men make a request but then, having been told the Dhamma, think they should tag along right behind me." On the other hand, this sounds like me: I would definitely want to tag along behind the Buddha... > Please read and train yourself thus if you would like to reach the goal > of the questioner: The alternative is spelt out quite pithily by the > Buddha in the second line. "But it is in just this way that some > worthless men make a request but then, having been told the Dhamma, > think they should tag along right behind me." (I personally do not think > of anyone as being worthless) But I don't think it's a case of 'either or'. Those who could, like the monk in this case, hear a teaching in brief and then disappear off on their own and attain enlightenment, were not your average jack. We know from the suttas that the general advice given by the Buddha was for repeated listening and consideration. We need to be careful about extrapolating too freely from this particular case ;-)). ... > Now what is at stake with this wager? Not a lot for one who teaches > that, while a worldling, there is nothing to be done, seeing as there is > only conditionality. It is quite pernicious for a worldling to confuse > the insights of an arahant with the rememberings of words. A worldling > is indeed a wordling (my spelling checker is having kittens :-)). > > It is the program of the wordling/worldling to extend their suffering, > being unaware of it. It is the program of the Buddha to eradicate > suffering, making known its all-pervasive thereness and its ending. > > I marvel at the casual way in which people wishfully assure themselves > of the many more lives they are bound to require before the path and > fruition come into play. > > The Buddha says of procrastination : "Shariputra, if someone gives up > this body and seizes another, I say it is a fault." ( from M.XV,2.) > (Yes, I know, it doesn't apply to you :-)) ;-)) Thanks for the interesting sutta choice. I'll try and get back on the other one later. Jon 34814 From: Joseph Bridwell Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:43am Subject: introduction My given name is Joseph, I'm 49 years old, and live in Seattle, WA, USA. I've been an interested but casual student of Mahayana Buddhism since I was 15, yet I find that events over the past decade have focused my attention on the tradition of Buddhism, and particularly in Theravada for its directness. I'm here to learn, so I expect to do a lot of lurking. 34815 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:57am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi, Ken (and Eric) - In a message dated 7/25/04 1:35:21 AM Eastern Daylight Time, kenhowardau@y... writes: > Hi Eric, > > Welcome to DSG. You wrote: > -------------------- > >Go to metta forest monastery and see and ask Thanisarro yourself. > You can even call him on the phone. > > ------------------- > > Thanks, but I think I understand Ven Thanissaro's perspective: he > has stated it clearly enough on ATI. It would be helpful if, for > the record, he were to answer the question, "Is there, ultimately, a > self; yes or no?" However, he has already said that question should > be answered with silence. > > My point in raising this issue is that others – Howard for one, and > perhaps you too – are not hearing the message TB is trying to > convey. You are assuming he does not believe in self. However, he > would not thank you for making that assumption: in his opinion, > anatta is not about the existence or non-existence of self but > rather, it is a strategy for calming the mind (ridding it of self- > conceit). > -------------------------------------------------- Howard: Ken, I agree with the assessment of yours in the last sentence after the colon, but tht does not imply that he secretly believes in "self". ------------------------------------------------- > > He is not being dishonest or evasive: to the contrary, he is making > his point as plainly as he can. Other people (including me until > recently) are putting words in his mouth. > > ----------------------- > E: >The other thing to keep in mind with any teacher or teaching is > the 2 different ways they talk or refer to 'reality'. Relatively > there is a 'you' and 'me' but Ultimately there is not. If you do not > have a good grasp of these 2 different languages, you are bound to > confuse the 2. > > ---------------------- > > Yes, I agree entirely: conventionally we say there is a self (man, > woman, animal etc.) but, as Dhamma students, we know there is > ultimately no self. The venerable bhikkhu disagrees and that is his > privilege. > -------------------------------------------- Howard: It could be that he disagrees, but I have not been convinced of that. ------------------------------------------ Just so long as we all know where we stand. :-)> > > Kind regards, > Ken H > > ========================== With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34816 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:38am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Jon - In a message dated 7/25/04 7:51:15 AM Eastern Daylight Time, jonoabb@y... writes: > A. Anapanasati > As I understand it, anapanasati means the development of samatha (a form > of kusala mental development -- also known as 'samadhi' in some contexts) > with breath as the object. > > Breath is one of several objects of samatha bhavana that allow > concentration to be developed to access or absorption level. Other such > objects include maranasati (recollection of death), Buddhanusati, > Dhammanusati and Sanghanusati (recollection of the Buddha, Dhamma, > Sangha), the kasinas, the brahma-viharas (metta, karuna, etc.), foulness > of the body, and others (38 or 40 subjects in all). > > As a side note, the 'sati' of anapanasati, maranasati, Buddhanusati, etc., > does not refer to the 'sati' of satipatthana; it just happens to be part > of the name of the particular kind of samatha bhavana. The development of > these forms of samatha has no particular connection to satipatthana (or, > if you prefer, no particular connection that is not shared by the other > subjects for samatha bhavana such as the kasinas), except course in so far > as there is special mention elsewhere in the suttas, such as the > Satipatthana Sutta or the Anapanasati Sutta, which I will mention below. > > Now, samatha bhavana is one of the 2 forms of bhavana (mental development) > discussed in the teachings, the other being vipassana bhavana (otherwise > referred to as satipatthana). > > 'Samatha' means serenity or calm (these are the translations used by > Bhikkhu Bodhi and Ven. Nanamoli in their translations). In terms of the > 'conditioned dhammas' it is kusala consciousness of a particular kind, > characterised by the mental factor of passaddhi ('tranquillity' in the > Bhikkhu Bodhi translations). > > As a form of mental development, samatha is accompanied by panna of the > appropriate level. High levels of kusala concentration can only be > attained if the moments of samatha are accompanied by panna. > > Well that's it for anapanasati. Any issues so far? ========================= If I may butt in Jon, I certainly have an issue. There is no doubt that samatha bhavana is involved in anapanasati, but the main thrust is the use of mindfulness of breath as a vehicle for complete enlightenment and liberation. In the Anapanasati Sutta you will find proof of what I say. The first section is introductory, the second section synopsizes the technique, and all the subsequent sections deal with the four foundations of mindfulness and liberation (along with cultivation of calm). I quote these portions starting with the third at the end of this post. I have put the heading of each of these portions in bold (and larger) type, although Yahoo may remove the bold. With metta, Howard ***************************************** The following are the sections 3, 4, and 5 which clearly discuss the 4 foundations of mindfulness and the use of anapanasati as a means for implementing them: (The Four Frames of Reference)"Now how is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination? "[1] Now, on whatever occasion a monk breathing in long discerns that he is breathing in long; or breathing out long, discerns that he is breathing out long; or breathing in short, discerns that he is breathing in short; or breathing out short, discerns that he is breathing out short; trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to the entire body; trains himself to breathe in... & ... out calming bodily fabrication: On that occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this -- the in-& -out breath -- is classed as a body among bodies, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "[2] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to rapture; trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to pleasure; trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to mental fabrication; trains himself to breathe in... &... out calming mental fabrication: On that occasion the monk remains focused on feelings in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. I tell you, monks, that this -- close attention to in-&-out breaths -- is classed as a feeling among feelings,[6] which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on feelings in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "[3] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself to breathe in... &... out sensitive to the mind; trains himself to breathe in... &... out satisfying the mind; trains himself to breathe in... &... out steadying the mind; trains himself to breathe in... &... out releasing the mind: On that occasion the monk remains focused on the mind in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. I don't say that there is mindfulness of in-&-out breathing in one of confused mindfulness and no alertness, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on the mind in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "[4] On whatever occasion a monk trains himself to breathe in... &... out focusing on inconstancy; trains himself to breathe in... &... out focusing on dispassion; trains himself to breathe in... &... out focusing on cessation; trains himself to breathe in... &... out focusing on relinquishment: On that occasion the monk remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- subduing greed & distress with reference to the world. He who sees clearly with discernment the abandoning of greed & distress is one who oversees with equanimity, which is why the monk on that occasion remains focused on mental qualities in & of themselves -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world. "This is how mindfulness of in-&-out breathing is developed & pursued so as to bring the four frames of reference to their culmination. (The Seven Factors for Awakening)"And how are the four frames of reference developed & pursued so as to bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination? "[1] On whatever occasion the monk remains focused on the body in & of itself -- ardent, alert, & mindful -- putting aside greed & distress with reference to the world, on that occasion his mindfulness is steady & without lapse. When his mindfulness is steady & without lapse, then mindfulness as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[2] Remaining mindful in this way, he examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment. When he remains mindful in this way, examining, analyzing, & coming to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, then analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[3] In one who examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, unflagging persistence is aroused. When unflagging persistence is aroused in one who examines, analyzes, & comes to a comprehension of that quality with discernment, then persistence as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[4] In one whose persistence is aroused, a rapture not-of-the-flesh arises. When a rapture not-of-the-flesh arises in one whose persistence is aroused, then rapture as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[5] For one who is enraptured, the body grows calm and the mind grows calm. When the body & mind of an enraptured monk grow calm, then serenity as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[6] For one who is at ease -- his body calmed -- the mind becomes concentrated. When the mind of one who is at ease -- his body calmed -- becomes concentrated, then concentration as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. "[7] He oversees the mind thus concentrated with equanimity. When he oversees the mind thus concentrated with equanimity, equanimity as a factor for Awakening becomes aroused. He develops it, and for him it goes to the culmination of its development. [Similarly with the other three frames of reference: feelings, mind, & mental qualities.] "This is how the four frames of reference are developed & pursued so as to bring the seven factors for Awakening to their culmination. (Clear Knowing & Release)"And how are the seven factors for Awakening developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination? There is the case where a monk develops mindfulness as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in relinquishment. He develops analysis of qualities as a factor for Awakening... persistence as a factor for Awakening... rapture as a factor for Awakening... serenity as a factor for Awakening... concentration as a factor for Awakening... equanimity as a factor for Awakening dependent on seclusion... dispassion... cessation, resulting in relinquishment. "This is how the seven factors for Awakening are developed & pursued so as to bring clear knowing & release to their culmination." That is what the Blessed One said. Gratified, the monks delighted in the Blessed One's words. /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34817 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 3:42am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi again, Jon - In a message dated 7/25/04 10:39:56 AM Eastern Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: > I have put the heading of each of these portions > in bold (and larger) type, although Yahoo may remove the bold. > ========================= Hmmph! Looks like Yahoo not only removed the bold, but also reduced my type size from 12 to 10!! I hope it is clear which are the headings. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34818 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:36am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta In a message dated 7/23/04 2:02:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... writes: But, at least at this point, I'm not approaching my meditation in very much of a formal, follow-the-steps manner. I'm just attempting to avoid distraction as much as possible (or at least to come back from it quickly), but without expectations, permitting the development of calm and concentration and other useful factors to proceed as conditions allow. When a good degree of calm and pleasant sensation arises, I tend to shift my attention to that, for doing so is recommended in the movement towards absorption, and it is natural as well. What I'm (re)discovering is the importance of patience and not anticipating developments. With these relinquishings, calm and then concentration do increase on their own. === Howard, Several months ago I started the same sort of practice but in what sounds like a slightly more formal, step by step manner. I use Buddhadasa's book as my main reference and also use Larry Rosenberg"s _Breath by Breath_ which is also based on the Anap. Sutta. It says pretty much the same as Buddhadasa's book but at times gives a slightly different slant. What got me started on this practice was a quote in Rosenberg's book describing a breakthrough he had from his old practice. His old practice was described the same as I would have described mine. " At that point my practice was samatha/vipassana. I focused on the breathing in order to calm the mind, then--dropping the breath as object--opened the attention to a wider focus, noticing the arising and passing away of whatever aspect of body or mind presented iteself most vividly. Bhikkhu Vimalo argued that I was seriously limiting my work with the breath, that in fact the breath could take me all the way to the deepest realization." Rosenberg goes on to say how he then studied the Anap. Sutta under Bhikkhu Buddhadasa. May we both as well as everyone on this list be liberated in our lifetime. jack 34819 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hi, Jack - I do agree that anapansati is a vehicle for full realization. At the moment, however, I am primarily using it as a vehicle for cultivation of calm, access concentration, and, conditions allowing, the jhanas. With metta, Howard In a message dated 7/25/04 12:39:16 PM Eastern Daylight Time, Jackhat1@a... writes: > > In a message dated 7/23/04 2:02:13 PM Pacific Daylight Time, upasaka@a... > > writes: > But, at least at this point, I'm not approaching my meditation > in very much of a formal, follow-the-steps manner. I'm just attempting to > avoid distraction as much as possible (or at least to come back from it > quickly), > but without expectations, permitting the development of calm and > concentration > and other useful factors to proceed as conditions allow. When a good degree > of calm and pleasant sensation arises, I tend to shift my attention to that, > > for doing so is recommended in the movement towards absorption, and it is > natural as well. What I'm (re)discovering is the importance of patience and > not > anticipating developments. With these relinquishings, calm and then > concentration > do increase on their own. > === > Howard, > > Several months ago I started the same sort of practice but in what sounds > like a slightly more formal, step by step manner. I use Buddhadasa's book as > my > main reference and also use Larry Rosenberg"s _Breath by Breath_ which is > also > based on the Anap. Sutta. It says pretty much the same as Buddhadasa's book > but at times gives a slightly different slant. > > What got me started on this practice was a quote in Rosenberg's book > describing a breakthrough he had from his old practice. His old practice was > described > the same as I would have described mine. " At that point my practice was > samatha/vipassana. I focused on the breathing in order to calm the mind, > then--dropping the breath as object--opened the attention to a wider focus, > noticing > the arising and passing away of whatever aspect of body or mind presented > iteself most vividly. Bhikkhu Vimalo argued that I was seriously limiting my > work > with the breath, that in fact the breath could take me all the way to the > deepest realization." Rosenberg goes on to say how he then studied the Anap. > Sutta > under Bhikkhu Buddhadasa. > > May we both as well as everyone on this list be liberated in our lifetime. > > jack > /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34820 From: m. nease Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:30am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi Ken, ----- Original Message ----- From: "kenhowardau" To: Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 4:13 AM Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI >Occasionally, we see DSG contributors making those exact points when >arguing that anatta should not be taken literally. Until now, I had >assumed they were misunderstanding something they had read, but it >seems they had read and understood TB exactly the way he intended. I think you're right about this and that it explains TB's contempt for abhidhamma (which he has expressed to me personally). This disregard for the central position of anatta in all Dhamma is a key feature of the present deteriorated state of the saasana, to which, in my opinion, TB has so lamentably contributed. Oh well! Anicca has just a central a position (or almost) and applies to the saasana as well as anything else, in my opinion. (This last point is debatable, of course, as some of us think that the tilakkha.na pertain exclusively to paramattha dhammas and 'the saasana' is, of course, a concept. It seems to me that the tilakkha.na are true of concepts on a conceptual level as well as being ultimately true of paramattha dhammas--but that's just my opinion, of course, and a separate issue). mike 34821 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:10am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi, Mike - In a message dated 7/25/04 1:43:30 PM Eastern Daylight Time, mlnease@z... writes: > Hi Ken, > > ----- Original Message ----- > From: "kenhowardau" > To: > Sent: Saturday, July 24, 2004 4:13 AM > Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI > > >Occasionally, we see DSG contributors making those exact points when > >arguing that anatta should not be taken literally. Until now, I had > >assumed they were misunderstanding something they had read, but it > >seems they had read and understood TB exactly the way he intended. > > I think you're right about this and that it explains TB's contempt for > abhidhamma (which he has expressed to me personally). This disregard for > the central position of anatta in all Dhamma is a key feature of the present > deteriorated state of the saasana, to which, in my opinion, TB has so > lamentably contributed. Oh well! Anicca has just a central a position (or > almost) and applies to the saasana as well as anything else, in my opinion. > (This last point is debatable, of course, as some of us think that the > tilakkha.na pertain exclusively to paramattha dhammas and 'the saasana' is, > of course, a concept. It seems to me that the tilakkha.na are true of > concepts on a conceptual level as well as being ultimately true of > paramattha dhammas--but that's just my opinion, of course, and a separate > issue). > > mike > ======================= Just for the record, in case there is any question, I also think the tilakkhana are *facts*, and whether hey are grasped conceptually or directly, that is the case. I don't think, however, that is the issue, and I would be quite surprised to learn that Ven T was an "atta-man" (Of course, the truth is often surprising ;-) With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34822 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:40am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi again, Ken, Andrew, Mike, and all - I just reread part 4 of Ven Thanissaro's article "The Not-Self Strategy". In this section he seems to recognize Right View as a part of the well known raft of the Buddha's that must be put down on reaching the far shore. He seems to be indicating in this section, and giving suttic evidence to show, that complete awakening to reality requires a *total* relinquishment which includes giving up all views entirely. I find that position to be interesting, though of more theoretical interest and less pragmatic interest than Ven T seems to think. Right View begins as conceptual right view, and it is pragmatically necessary to point one in the right direction - to properly orient the mind. As there is progress, however, Right View evolves into wisdom, and wisdom leads to uprooting and relinquishment. In any case, I do think this section of Ven T's article is worth a rereading. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34823 From: Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 8:41am Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hi all - On my last post I missed explicitly including Eric in my salutaion. Perhaps I missed others as well. My apologies. With metta, Howard /Thus is how ye shall see all this fleeting world: A star at dawn, a bubble in a stream, a flash of lightning in a summer cloud, a flickering lamp, a phantom, and a dream./ (From the Diamond Sutra) 34824 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:18pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI Hey Ken, Ken > Welcome to DSG. Thanks! Ken: I think I understand Ven Thanissaro's perspective: he > has stated it clearly enough on ATI. It would be helpful if, for > the record, he were to answer the question, "Is there, ultimately, a > self; yes or no?" However, he has already said that question should be answered with silence. Thanks for pushing this a bit further. Why do you think this is the case above? You feel it is an indication of his 'self' beliefs, right? Is there another explanation? If he answers 'yes' he is siding with eternalism. If he answers 'no' he is siding with nihilism. So what are WE to do? Intelectually assert one way or another about the intelectual beliefs another is supposed to have or not on what is for us a metaphysical meandering? Or like the instructions to the Kalamas find out for ourselves? Thanisarro is offering us, as the name of the article states, a 'no- self strategy' to find out for ourselves. PEACE E 34825 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 2:51pm Subject: Re: Four foundations of mindfulness- simultaneously? Hey Andrew, A > So you are saying establish one of the four foundations of mindfulness well and discern the truths related to that before rousing the others, and 'getting it together,' am I right? Yes, that is right. It is a sort of reductionism. Disassemble what is taken to be one 'thing' into its parts to begin to see what it is made of and what it is capable of. So, start with the body as a frame of reference. What sort of happiness and suffering is inherent in it? How do they arise and pass away? Is there anything 'you' can do about it? Is there a lasting happiness possible in the body? Find out so you "know" and not just believe because the Buddha said so! A > It seems you are also referencing mindfulness of feelings (mind) to investigate anicca and anatta which seems reasonable to me esp. on the meditation cushion, but I have traditionally looked through anicca via mindfulness of feelings of the body (pleasant, painful, or neutral). E> Sure investigate in whatever way you are capable of and what makes sense to you. If you follow say the first 4 steps in Anapanasati and you can sufficiently calm the breath, then piti will arise naturally. But you needn't only look at piti and sukha, as you said you can look at dukkha vedana and see also how it arises and passes. But it is not just about seeing anicca at this stage. See how and what influences the body and feelings. What part does the breath play in all of this? Play with all of this in an open investigative manner. Make it an active experiential investigation of Paticca Samuppada. Before you sit. Clarify what it is you are sitting for. Just take one or two things and investigate it. Anapanasati is a good guide for this. Not that you have to hold to your intention if something else pops up that requires attention, etc. Over time skill and understanding will come in navigating the four frames. But khanti (patience) in this regard is the highest virtue! PEACE E 34826 From: Demian Meyer Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 10:47am Subject: Re: [dsg] Precepts - Veganism Hello, I think that though this happens, we as consumers can choose what to, and what not to purchase in regards to animal products. For example we can choose to buy cage free eggs, with the animal care certified label. This way we can be sure that the animal was treated humanly, and that it was not tortured through out it's life with drugs, and being confined. Personally I do not eat meat except for fish occasionally, and one day I hope that I will be able to stop eating that as well. There are so many alternatives today, "meat-less" products if you will that are healthier for you then meat, and because of this, we now do have a choice to not eat meat, without causing ourselves undue physical hardship. In the time of the Buddha's life, that may not have been possible. On a side note I have a question: What type of shoes can you buy that are durable enough for hard terrain, and warm enough for weather conditions, that are not made from leather? Thank you, -Demian ----- Original Message ----- From: "Herman Hofman" To: Sent: Sunday, July 25, 2004 7:10 AM Subject: RE: [dsg] Precepts - Veganism > Hi Christine, > > I share your concerns about this industry of raising animals for the > sake of nurturing our bodies. The ease whereby we remain ignorant of > what happens behind the scenes in order for us to have our daily lives > as consumers of neatly shelved and once living products is also > frightening. > > This business of living is quite revolting really. Perhaps there is some > consolation in the thought that all that one has ever consumed is > returned for other life to consume. > > Kind Regards > > Herman > > -----Original Message----- > From: christine_forsyth [mailto:cforsyth@v...] > Sent: Saturday, 24 July 2004 2:08 PM > To: dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com > Subject: [dsg] Precepts - Veganism > > Dear Group, > > Just wondering. The Precepts apply to the way buddhists act towards > all beings. 34827 From: bernard.vital Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:44am Subject: Hello Hello At the moment I work for dutch gouvernement as a legislative lawyer. A lawyer who prepares laws and rules. It is nice and I got some more income, but it is not the forfilling of my life. It is a good thing to have at this moment some basic fundaments and than in a few months I can see what I can and will do in the next years of my . I´m not unhappy at the moment, but I still feel a lot of time that I miss a real friend or partner. And I also do not see clear now if I realy miss a friend or a community of people with the same feelings and thoughts. In Europe people are living very individualistic. Everybody is going home after work and sit there with there own family. People are not so social as in Asia. I think every relation is for a time and so it will always lead you to suffering. But on the other hand I do not ant to live the rest of my life in lonliness. So that is a difficult question for me. A second question is: I was already several times in SE Asia and from the first time I was there it felt as if I realy came home for the first time in my life. After the end of the realtion I had with the a dutch man for 9 years. I was so depressed. And it became worser for me every day. After three months I went for 6 weeks to Viet Nam and I was totaly recovered. So I want to know for myself if there are possibilities to settle me somewhere in Asia for the rest of my life. I think I lived in a previous life in Asia. I also know that the problems you have know (lonliness,...) you take with you were ever you go. But the feeling I have in Asia is so wonderful and it was a kind of enlightment I never had before. My purpose in life is not to be rich but to make people happier and give them some peace. There is only one thing that is a very big problem to set this step. So I only can stay healthy with some medecines. But they are very expiencive. In The Netherlands we have a health insurence that pays all the medecines you need. But in Asia there is not such as a health insurence for that. And it is still difficult to find these medecines there. So now you know what are my questions and and things I am concerned about. I believe that everything that happens in our life is the result of the karma we built up in this and previous lifes. If we do good to others, give love, friendship and help to other we will get a on one day in this or a next life back. I still believe that you only can answer agression, hate, lies, ... wiht love and compassion. Every man or woman is good, also if some of his acts are not the best for me or for the world. I have always to forgive them. I cannot force to change the other people. I only can take the lessons of the situation for myself. When my philippino boyfriend maked an end at our relation under the pressure of his family, he knocked me down. I was bleading and had a lot of pain. But the first thing I did was to go to a florist to send him some flowers and ask him for forgiveness for all the things I did perhaps wrong, even if I never had some intention to do things wrong. But perhaps in his perception I was wrong. I still do not know. But now I do not have hard feelings to him or at the end of our relation. So if I perhaps didnot change his mind these facts didn´t hurt me anymore. I did everything I could. Also if I see some poor people on the streets, I akways give them something. Also if I don´t have much money at this moment, if I can share the little one I have with them, I feel a little bit happier. I only try to follow the learning of the Buddha. But sometimes it is not so easy. On my work I´m one of the best lawyers. Everbody says that. But I´m not proud of it, I only do my job. I have to do it this way. The things I got by my birth I have to set them in for the welness of other people. A lot of lawyers in Holland earn four till eight times more than me because they do things which I would never do. They take cases from people amnd find out how they can make profit on the account of other people. I never will do that, because I would feel myself very baad if I would do that. Also some collegues earn more,because they present their result as if they have done something wonderful and the make their on the back of other people. If they do it that way. It is ok for me. But I will never do that. I do not judge anyone. But I know what I can and will do. If I will hurt other people I do not do it. Money, possesions etc. are nice, but not important for me. If you die, you have to leafe them all. The only important thing is that I will have found some enlightment and that I make some people a little bit happier and peaceful. I only offer it to them, if that accept it it is ok, if not it is also ok. That is a little bit how I see and feel and act and how I life every day. I like to ask you not to say that I am good or bad. The only thing I liek to ask you is to give me some advice, to be a guide to me for a while and show me better the way I have to go now to get enleightment for the wellness of all the living beeings. Vital www.vitalmoors.nl 34828 From: Herman Hofman Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:09pm Subject: RE: [dsg] The Importance of Concentration in One Sentence Hi Jon, > > I would like to make a small wager with you. I would like to wager with > you that before reaching the end of the sutta I am about to quote, you > will have formed and accepted a number of reasons why this sutta doesn't > apply to you. Now, bear in mind, it is quite a concise sutta. Pithy is > such a good word to describe the Buddha's teachings. Ouch. I seem to be under attack today! So much for a pleasant Sunday afternoon. ================================================= H > I'm sorry, Jon, no intended attack from me. I'm truly sorry my message arrived in that way. :-) ================================================= OK then, let me see ... Anguttara Nikaya VIII.63, Sankhitta Sutta, In Brief http://www.accesstoinsight.org/canon/sutta/anguttara/an08-063.html "Then a certain monk went to the Blessed One and, on arrival, having bowed down to him, sat to one side. As he was sitting there he said to the Blessed One: "It would be good if the Blessed One would teach me the Dhamma in brief so that, having heard the Dhamma from the Blessed One, I might dwell alone in seclusion: heedful, ardent, & resolute." " OK Herman, you've won your wager already. I immediately spotted this as not applying to me, in that: (a) I would never ask for a teaching *in brief*; I would always need to hear the full works, and then more than once, and (b) 'heedful, ardent, & resolute' just isn't me, I'm afraid. [Sutta continues:] "But it is in just this way that some worthless men make a request but then, having been told the Dhamma, think they should tag along right behind me." On the other hand, this sounds like me: I would definitely want to tag along behind the Buddha... ==================================================== H > Jon, I read your post as saying the following: You know yourself well. You know what's going to work for you and what is not going to work for (I cannot make out from this or previous contexts how you know this) ==================================================== > Please read and train yourself thus if you would like to reach the goal > of the questioner: The alternative is spelt out quite pithily by the > Buddha in the second line. "But it is in just this way that some > worthless men make a request but then, having been told the Dhamma, > think they should tag along right behind me." (I personally do not think > of anyone as being worthless) But I don't think it's a case of 'either or'. Those who could, like the monk in this case, hear a teaching in brief and then disappear off on their own and attain enlightenment, were not your average jack. We know from the suttas that the general advice given by the Buddha was for repeated listening and consideration. We need to be careful about extrapolating too freely from this particular case ;-)). ================================================================= H > You are making classifications in a spiritual hierarchy based on a known result (the benefit of hindsight), and have made some decisions about the attainability of enlightenment for yourself. Now of course, you do not have to justify your self-assessment to anyone, but the need to be careful would extend to every one of us extrapolating their own self-assessment to others as well, or not? I am curious to know, does the satipatthana sutta apply to you, or the maha-version? Which suttas, if any, that treat of mindfulness, relate to you? A further point. You mention the general advice of the Buddha re repeated listening and consideration. Isn't there also unequivocal, repeated and general advice to seek out the foot of a tree in the suttas? Is there ever any advice that warns of the dangers of seclusion from the world? Kind regards Herman 34829 From: Andrew Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 5:27pm Subject: Re: [dsg] Eternalism on ATI --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, upasaka@a... wrote: > Hi again, Ken, Andrew, Mike, and all - > > I just reread part 4 of Ven Thanissaro's article "The Not- Self > Strategy". In this section he seems to recognize Right View as a part of the well > known raft of the Buddha's that must be put down on reaching the far shore. He > seems to be indicating in this section, and giving suttic evidence to show, that > complete awakening to reality requires a *total* relinquishment which > includes giving up all views entirely. I find that position to be interesting, though > of more theoretical interest and less pragmatic interest than Ven T seems to > think. Right View begins as conceptual right view, and it is pragmatically > necessary to point one in the right direction - to properly orient the mind. As > there is progress, however, Right View evolves into wisdom, and wisdom leads to > uprooting and relinquishment. Hi Howard Thanks for these thoughts. I think this whole discussion has been useful in making plain the fundamental issue at stake i.e. whether the anatta teaching is a description of reality to be realised or a technique to be used and abandoned. I accept the first proposition. I do see how those who are averse to Abhidhamma would not be receptive to the proposition that Right View is a wholesome mental factor. As a path factor, it is wisdom as you say. On a more mundane level, we are advised to listen to and reflect upon the Dhamma - does that only involve thinking with concept as object? Or does it involve mind-base taking a paramattha dhamma as object and experiencing it with understanding? That would be a "direct hit" of satipatthana, wouldn't it? What about all the "misses" before the "direct hit"? Can any of those "misses" (eg with concept as object) have Right View as a mental factor? Can you (or anyone else) help with these questions? Best wishes Andrew PS my notes seem to indicate that every beautiful consciousness has some Right View except sense-sphere consciousness dissociated from knowledge. 34830 From: robmoult Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:06pm Subject: Developing Faith Hi All, A quick question. I was recently asked how one develops faith. My answer was something like the following: The Pali term saddha, often translated as faith, also includes the ideas of confidence or trust. The way that one builds up confidence is by proper reflection. For example, when I first encountered Buddhism, I had a problem with the concept of rebirth. When I started reflecting on this issue, I realized that rebirth was the best possible explanation for natural talents and tendencies. After reflecting in this way, I had confidence in the concept of rebirth. ===== I feel that my answer was incomplete. I am hoping that one of my DSG friends can help me answer more completely (maybe even with a Sutta quote). Metta, Rob M :-) 34831 From: nori Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:48pm Subject: Re: Four foundations of mindfulness- simultaneously? hi andrew, In my opinion, the four foundations of mindfulness, that is, looking upon oneself, does not have to adhere to any strict rules in regards to choosing amongst the four and concentrating on just one. I think this can change from moment to moment depending on what one is choosing to investigate. I believe, and the Maha Satipatthana Sutta makes it clear, that this mindfulness on oneself should not end once your butt gets off the seat cushion, but should continue (as practically possible) throughout every conscious moment of the day. That said, I have experienced the benefit also from focusing on just one frame/foundation of mindfulness, or even more specific, one aspect within each frame/foundation and maintaining concentration on that. For example, in the Goenka Vipassana school (beginner level), after anapana, they focus on only bodily sensations, sitting and throughout the entire day. In a sutta, I forgot which, it is said that everything is manifested as a sensation on the body, whether feelings, mental conditions, or the five hinderances. Interestingly enough, when the mind stays concentrated just on bodily sensations, all other things ('foundations') within oneself also become very apparent and distinguished - thoughts, feelings, mental conditions, and mind contents in regard to the five hinderances. I think this article below by Thanissaro Bhikkhu titled: Basic Breath Meditation Instructions is a really good instruction for those starting out. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/breathmed.html peace and metta, nori --- In dhammastudygroup@yahoogroups.com, "suicidal_one2004" wrote: > Hi, > > I've been reading "The Four Foundations of Mindfulness" by Ven. U > Silananda and Thanissaro Bhikku's "Wings to Awakening." > > Surely we all know the Buddha says whoever is practising these four > foundations of mindfulness [*each of body, feelings, mind, and dhammas > in and of themselves*] for [7 years down to 7 days] can expect gnosis > here & now or if there is still some trace of affliction, non- return. > > My question is, must these all be practised concurrently, or do we > merely shift attention to whatever comes to the fore? A passage to > consider: > > from Thanissaro Bhikku's "Wings to Awakening": > ========================================== > The four objects that act as frames of reference fall into two > classes. The first class--the body, feelings, and the mind--act as > the "given" objects of meditation practise: what experience presents, > on its own, as an object for meditation. The meditator takes any one > of these objects as a frame of reference, relating all of experience > to his/her chosen frame. For example, although one will experience > feelings and mind states in the course of taking the body as a frame > of reference, one tries to relate them to the experience of the body > as their primary frame. _A feeling is viewed as it affects the body, > or the body affects it._ The same holds for a mind state. An analogy > for this practise is holding an object in one's hand. When other > objects come into contact with the hand, one is aware that they are > making contact, but one does not let go of the object in one's hand in > order to grasp after them." > ========================================== > This seems to imply that feelings should be taken as a secondary > consideration, as it relates to the body. How one would do this, I > don't know, but it doesn't seem right to me. Certainly we need to > practise ardently on feelings in and of themselves, to observe > origination & dissolution factors, relinquishment, and impermanence > that is their very nature, right? > > Or is it meant to say that we should develop each frame of reference > one at a time, focusing on the other events as secondary or background > phenomenon, or relating them to the primary frame of reference, until > each foundation of mindfulness is established so they can be practised > concurrently? > > Furthermore, Ven. Pannyavaro, in his e-book entitled "The Art of > Attention" available on http://www.buddhanet.net, refers to the > foundations of mindfulness as the "four spheres of attention," > extracting pieces of the satipatthana sutta saying we should note the > posture of the body and the four elements of it, along with the > movement of the abdomen, without any ardency, concentration, or strict > adherence to the letter of the sutta. Similarly with feelings and > mental phenomenon, just to note whichever comes to the fore of one's > attention -- thus he calles them the "four spheres of attention." > > The image I have here is of one sitting practising mindfulness of > breathing, of posture, of the four elements, of feelings, physical and > mental, of mind, and eventually of dhammas, staying in the domain of > the four foundations of mindfulness whereever he physically goes. > This is how the Buddha meant satipatthana to be practised with regard > to the time periods referenced in the assurance of attainment section, > right? 34832 From: nori Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 6:57pm Subject: Anapana / Vipassana instructions hi dhamma friends, I think this article by Thanissaro Bhikkhu 'Basic Breath Meditation Instructions' is very good instruction for those starting out in Anapana and Vipassana meditation. http://www.accesstoinsight.org/lib/modern/thanissaro/breathmed.html with metta, nori 34833 From: ericlonline Date: Sun Jul 25, 2004 7:14pm Subject: [dsg] Re: Anapanasati Sutta Hey, jon Thanks for all the info but I am familiar with all of it. Let's try an analogy to help clarify things. Let us use Popeye and spinach. You are saying that when Popeye eats spinach he gets all powerful. Now you feel that if and when you eat spinach you wont get that power or maybe you can't stomach the spinach. Which is fine as long as you are eating say kale to get the nourishment that is in spinach. But that does not mean that others won't get any nourishment from spinach because they won't get the same 'reaction' from the spinach as Popeye. Even if you can't palate it the